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View Full Version : New mental ray "production" shaders for maya/max 2008 with mental ray 3.6


seifneo
08-10-2007, 10:29 AM
New mental ray "production" shaders that will be shipping w. max/maya 2008 with Mental ray 3.6 !

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QxKxPy5oeOs

-------------------
The mental ray "production" library is intended to simplify the workflow of integrating cg objects into real-world scenes.

The library contains:

- mip cameramap
- mip matteshadow
- mip mirrorball
- mip grayball
- mip motionblur
- mip motion vector
- mip card opacity
- mip gamma gain
- mip render subset
- mip rayswitch

2007 mental images Gmbh.
------------------

duke
08-10-2007, 10:49 AM
Cool I guess, but they're about 5 years late to the party..

CIM
08-10-2007, 12:57 PM
LOL @ dancing robots.

Tamis
08-10-2007, 01:09 PM
dude that was awsome lol.


i'm going to show you how to dance wow wow wow

aahw crap.

cresshead
08-10-2007, 01:12 PM
yeah nice shaders..esp the matte shadow for mental ray.

DZL
08-10-2007, 07:29 PM
techno music...dancing robots...?

are you sure this isn't a mental ray video from 1998?

Tirido
08-10-2007, 08:55 PM
techno music...dancing robots...?

are you sure this isn't a mental ray video from 1998?


These robots (at least one of them) are from Supreme Commander (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/supremecommander/index.html?q=Supreme%20Commander&tag=result;title;1). But yes, strange technology demo for MR :)

trthing
08-10-2007, 09:06 PM
techno music...dancing robots...?

are you sure this isn't a mental ray video from 1998?

1998? I was waiting for the London 2012 Olympics logo to show up anytime!

SanjayChand
08-11-2007, 08:19 AM
what does matteshadow do?

create RGB mattes for different shadows that are in the same pass?

Steve Green
08-11-2007, 08:47 AM
At a guess, it's like the 3DS Max matte/shadow material, which is used to assign to objects when you want an object to matte out what is behind it, but be able to cast and receive shadows/atmospherics.

lo
08-11-2007, 09:21 AM
first of all the demo is pretty cute, I'm sure they're just trying to ride the transformers hype wave.

but what I don't understand is what is new about a matte/shadow shader? could anyone explain exactly what could I be doing with this shader library that I couldn't before?

mech7
08-11-2007, 10:09 AM
first of all the demo is pretty cute, I'm sure they're just trying to ride the transformers hype wave.

but what I don't understand is what is new about a matte/shadow shader? could anyone explain exactly what could I be doing with this shader library that I couldn't before?


Have a robot and glass rotate through chrome spheres :)

Steve Green
08-11-2007, 10:18 AM
Doing a quick search on the topic, there were problems with the built in matte/shadow not picking up GI/FG/Skylight in previous versions of Max.

Maybe this was still the case - I don't use MR that much.

What do MR users in other apps use for this, is there a third part material to do this sort of thing?

lo
08-11-2007, 10:28 AM
Doing a quick search on the topic, there were problems with the built in matte/shadow not picking up GI/FG/Skylight in previous versions of Max.


Yes, that's true. I usually render out a seperate pass, and instead of a Matte/Shadow material, use a standard material, colored black, self illumination set to 100, and put an Ambient Occlusion shader in the opacity slot, to get a skylight shadow.

Guess I just expected some more serious much-needed updates from MR.

Steve Green
08-11-2007, 10:40 AM
Anything specific?

I just hope they've fixed the dreadful performance in the material editor with A/D materials

- Steve

ronaldomiranda
08-11-2007, 11:29 AM
Cool I guess, but they're about 5 years late to the party..


is that real??? :(

Als
08-12-2007, 01:30 PM
I can't wait to see how Mental ray "simplify" stuff.
Really looking forward to that!


Als

gaianix
08-12-2007, 02:12 PM
hm.......wait to see:twisted:

cresshead
08-12-2007, 06:35 PM
looks nice...hope they add a shader specific material lib as well.

jasonio
08-12-2007, 06:47 PM
Hmm, new MR shaders, woohoo. Why can't they just make MR run half as quick as rendition by Holomatix (http://www.holomatix.com/products/rendition/about/) (and display like it - instead of the annoying one tile at time)
Then I'd be impressed.

depleteD
08-12-2007, 10:01 PM
ah getting a matte/shadow with rendertime displacement would be nice, hopefully id passes blur in this new addition

Spacelord
08-13-2007, 03:22 AM
I was hoping for large render support with final gather.
Colour swatches that had the right gamma ( so they matched there rendered output ).
Will have to wait for the demo.

cheers

lazzhar
08-13-2007, 05:27 AM
... run half as quick as rendition by Holomatix (http://www.holomatix.com/products/rendition/about/) ...

At least they could give credit to the one who made the scene :rolleyes:

Spacelord
08-13-2007, 06:27 AM
Anything specific?

I just hope they've fixed the dreadful performance in the material editor with A/D materials

- Steve

+1, It gets pretty tiresome waiting for them to refresh.

ronaldomiranda
08-13-2007, 02:17 PM
asking again....

Are these shaders old or new:

I mean...new for maya and max, but old for XSI??

thanx ;)

MasterZap
08-13-2007, 02:18 PM
Hi Guys

Lets apply some context to this "library release":

The production library is a "bonus" thing in addition to all other new things in mental ray 3.6. It's a set of "useful stuff" we included for your shading pleasure. ;)

The demo movie linked above is a set of various test renders I did during the development (some better than others) strung together for the purpouse of being an "amusing" SigGRAPH demo. (And yes, I'm using the same old bad free Mocap I've used in previous years demo movies ;) )

The library contains a bunch of shaders that may have "similar" incarnations in other applications (for example, the "mip_matteshadow" shaders is somewhat like the max "Matte/Shadow" material or the Maya "Use Background", but made totally with mental ray in mind, and a set of extra features not available in either).

Other shaders indeed have similar implementations in the various applications (for example, Maya's "EnvBall" shader can do what mip_mirrorball does), but this library makes the feature "cross platform".

Yet other small utility shaders (like the various mip_rayswitch* ones) already exist as various free downloads - this library just makes a "standard set" which you can safely use in Phenomena such that people not need to download and install 3rd party things just to make your nifty little phenomena work.

Other things has never been available as internal mental ray shaders (like the 2.5D post motion blur shader mip_motionblur) although similar features exist as features (or plugins) for compositing packages.


Think of it as a gathering of tools in one place, even if "similar" things have been available elswhere in the past. A nice toolbox.

Also, development wise, it's just a very small part of the offering of new stuff coming w. the new mental ray (as well as a very minor part of the mr related features included w. the "2008" products), although, it's perhaps one of the more "fun" ones ;) (Or maybe I'm easily amused? LOL).

It also simply happens to be the only one for which there is a "demo movie" available at this time.

yeah nice shaders..esp the matte shadow for mental ray.

Yes, this shader has probably the most features, including non-self shadowing shadows, non-self occluding occlusoin, non-self reflecting reflections, casting and receiving of indirect illumination, reception of "illuminator" lights, mappable contour opacity, and so on and so forth.

techno music...dancing robots...?

Heh, the dancing robot theme is a bit tounge in cheek. I just needed some motion, I happened to have access to varios mocap and some robot models.... and I happen to produce techno music on the side :eek:

These robots (at least one of them) are from Supreme Commander (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/supremecommander/index.html?q=Supreme%20Commander&tag=result;title;1).

Indeed, with many thanks to Gas Powered Games for allowing me to use their model. Of course, I doubt the UEF Supreme Commander was ever made for dancin'....


first of all the demo is pretty cute, I'm sure they're just trying to ride the transformers hype wave.

Just having some fun, that's all.

but what I don't understand is what is new about a matte/shadow shader? could anyone explain exactly what could I be doing with this shader library that I couldn't before?

The main new features is the non-self-X options. If you take a background photo plate, this plate already contains all the shadows, reflections, bounce light, illumination etc. that "should be there" (with one exception, see below).

Traditional matte/shadow features work great with a single flat plane (and I agree, these demo clips really doens't show anything beyond a flat plane) but if you build a complicated set of objects as matte/stand in's for objects in the plate, you tend to get problems with double-shadows, extra reflections, or similar.

These shaders solve all these issues, being non-self-shadowing, non-self-occluding, etc, since all these effects are "already there". The one addition is "illuminator lights" which will light up the background (like headlights on an added CG car).

But as said before, the idea with this library wasn't so much "do something that never was done", it was more to "provide a standard set" that we can reffer to in Phenomena, as well as writing documentation and tutorials around. This is much easier if we have a standard cross-platform set of shaders, rather than having to do "If you want to do this in Maya, you do this, if you want to do this in Max, you do this other thing, and yet in XSI, you will have to do this third thing. In Max, push button A, in Maya, pull lever B, and in XSI, rotate knob C...."

Guess I just expected some more serious much-needed updates from MR.

Again, please understand that this is just a small "additional fun stuff" we supply this year, not the totality of "new mr stuff"!

We have lots of other new things, both new shaders and core enhancements!

looks nice...hope they add a shader specific material lib as well.

To be clear, every object in these scenes are done with "classic" shaders, like the "A&D"/mia_material or the car paint shaders, this is all about the integration with the "ground plane" (contact shadows, reflecting off it, bouncing light on/off it, etc.), so there is really only one "material" here. Not much to put in a library ;)

Much more information will be available in due course. Consider this a teaser trailer. ;)

/Z

lo
08-13-2007, 02:35 PM
The main new features is the non-self-X options. If you take a background photo plate, this plate already contains all the shadows, reflections, bounce light, illumination etc. that "should be there" (with one exception, see below).

Traditional matte/shadow features work great with a single flat plane (and I agree, these demo clips really doens't show anything beyond a flat plane) but if you build a complicated set of objects as matte/stand in's for objects in the plate, you tend to get problems with double-shadows, extra reflections, or similar.

These shaders solve all these issues, being non-self-shadowing, non-self-occluding, etc, since all these effects are "already there". The one addition is "illuminator lights" which will light up the background (like headlights on an added CG car).


Thanks for the explanation, I understand now :thumbsup:
Nice feature.


Again, please understand that this is just a small "additional fun stuff" we supply this year, not the totality of "new mr stuff"!

We have lots of other new things, both new shaders and core enhancements!


Great to hear, I'm sure everyone would love to know more.

erilaz
08-13-2007, 02:38 PM
Thanks for dropping in with some info Zap... always good to hear stuff from the source. :)

Steve Green
08-13-2007, 03:17 PM
Thanks for the clarification of the scope of the shaders, it definitely makes sense to standardise across the various apps.

BTW did you have any input into the Review feature of Max 2008? I've been trying to find out what the viewport is capable of showing with regards to the AD material.

Thanks,

Steve

Spacelord
08-13-2007, 11:55 PM
Thanks Zap much appreciate you stepping in and making sense.

Much more information will be available in due course. Consider this a teaser trailer. ;)

Oh I can not wait, lets hope it has :
Correct gamma swatches (matches rendered output)
Render super large images with final gather.

cheers

Kabab
08-14-2007, 12:42 AM
Come on Zappy spill the beans!

bigguns
08-14-2007, 04:24 AM
IT's an awesome thing! I love these shaders. I hope there is a shader for the glow effetc on the highlight, it had a lot of realism. The effetcs of light is super! I think it will be the best upgrade for max of Mental ray! Congrats!! Great job there!

MrElmo
08-14-2007, 08:43 PM
master zap, we talked about this before, but is there finally any inhouse MI "layered shader shader" in development, that would be the right thing to do next? Would be a nice new feature.

Spacelord
08-15-2007, 02:06 AM
IT's an awesome thing! I love these shaders. I hope there is a shader for the glow effetc on the highlight, it had a lot of realism. The effetcs of light is super! I think it will be the best upgrade for max of Mental ray! Congrats!! Great job there!

On Kens blog he mentions the Glare shader now performs faster.
So hopefully it will also have object specific working too.
heres the link and Kens blurb.
http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/blog/5/blogpost/5156/
Lume Glare Shader Performance
The mental ray Lume Glare shader now performs faster on large frames.

fahr
08-15-2007, 04:37 AM
I am PRAYING these new production tools will fill in the gaps that 3rd parties have needed to fill. Being on a mac, it would be great to not have to beg and plead to MR shader developers to port to the mac, for one. ;)

In maya, I've generally avoided using pure MR shaders like the plague, because once I drop in a DGS or MISSS shader, I can no longer use the "Emit Specular" or "Emit Diffuse" flags in my lights for those shaders, and those are extremely important for lighting a scene. In order to deal with it, I have to either set up complex passes or dive into 3rd party offerings like MegaTK which essentially require you to completely redo all of your shaders in a scene in order to get AO passes and spec/diffuse control of your lights.

And I still don't know how to get around the lack of a MR layered shader (Mix8layer doesn't work on an intel mac yet, last I checked).

Will the MR package included with Maya 2008 provide a solution to these issues? My frustation with all of these gaping holes in the toolset (no AO passes, no spec/diffuse flags for lights, no layered shader) is compelling me to stop using MR altogether.

MasterZap
08-15-2007, 07:13 AM
master zap, we talked about this before, but is there finally any inhouse MI "layered shader shader" in development, that would be the right thing to do next? Would be a nice new feature.

There is no "layer shader" in the "production" lib per se. Yet.

The trick in making an "in house" layer/framebuffer thing is that it tends to collide quite heavily with the integrated applications layer/framebuffer features. In principle, it's better to leave this kind of thing (esp. writing framebuffers) to the application, than some hairy shader code.

That said...... stay tuned ;)

/Z

seifneo
08-15-2007, 11:15 AM
Now i am very sad...:sad:

-------------------------
- We ARE shipping the MR production tools - but unfortunately as 'unsupported' - meaning that we don't officially document them nor can you call support about them. They'll be in the release and someone will let you know how to use them (not sure how that will happen). We just didn't have the resources to fully integrate them but we didn't want to not ship thme. Not perfect, but better than nothing.

Ken Pimentel

http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/blog/5/blogpost/5156/

---------------------------

i just hope that jeff patton or maybe...MasterZap :thumbsup: show us how to use them ! come on october, i lost my patient :bounce:

MasterZap
08-15-2007, 11:20 AM
Now i am very sad...:sad:

Don't be!

The choice was between not having them at all... or having them in this "pseudo supported" mode. Note that the "unsupported" state is only from the Autodesk point of view, not the mental images point of view!


i just hope that jeff patton or maybe...MasterZap :thumbsup: show us how to use them !

Oh don't you worry about that. They are quite throrougly documented. Documentation ships on the max2008 DVD as a PDF. To expose them is just a matter of a minor modification to a configuration file, and you are up and flyin' in minutes.

/Z

seifneo
08-15-2007, 12:00 PM
Coooooooool ! i am very...Mentally :) Happy now , thank you ! you'r The Master of..Ray. Thanks ! :applause:

Shaderhacker
08-17-2007, 06:39 AM
I just can't wait to get my hands on the MR so I can play with Mental Mill and see all the enhancements from 2 years ago! :thumbsup:

-M

vrf
08-17-2007, 06:48 AM
Agree, I hope the material editor performance with a/d materials has been improved.

Als
08-19-2007, 05:50 PM
I would really hope to actually see included ALL maya files with examples.
Documentation is nice, but again just a theory, and having the file with example could mean world of difference between understanding and connecting nodes, or not being able to use them at all.
Again I have to plead again that mia material should have alpha channel when rendered, in any default mode. Please. I never understood who needs this switched off anyway?
I'm still amazed with MR look and results, but very frustratred with the way things still work.
It remainds me of the situation with the renderman shaders. All really great ones are best hidden secrets...
I'm seriously thinking also to quit using MR altogether because of those anoying things, and hidden tabs which need to be switched every time.
Also if I need to render from one version of maya to another, it's imposible to use MR setup because none of the networks work in any other version, and it needs so much fixing to make it work. I'm suprised that no one complained about this...
I guess I'm sorry for the dancing robots, because clearly those files can't be published, but it would be huge help to have those files which results of are shown in documentation.

Thanks


Als

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