Lightwave 3D updated to 9.3

[coremi]

seems that will be released on 11 august.

[Julez4001]

Anybody got a short list of any new features?

This was quite the rush of info on Wednesday?

[akademus]

seems that will be released on 11 august.

on Saturday!?

[RobotClayton]

New (significantly faster) SSS shaders! Praise Jebus!

[Zarathustra]

That's it, just faster SSS?

[ranhell]

is the beta the only down load????

[biliousfrog]

there's a mention on flay about single sided area lights...that's gotta be good news

[factorblank]

That's it, just faster SSS?

No, there's a little more than that... :rolleyes:

Edge/Point rendering with the Advanced Cameras
Single-Sided Area Lights
Volume Stacking (Single-sided surfaces are treated as volumes, making things like Dielectric glass much easier to set-up)
New Nodes
-Fast Skin
-Sigma2
ShiftCamera

and many, many bug fixes.

[moc-ko]

Actualy,That's a v9.2.1...Or a v9.2b...
If those features call a point release....
Then what we will get at the next point release?..
A sigma III?.....An other enchance SSS? Or a much improvement SDK?

And then never care about poor riging processing....
Never care about poor bone realtime transformation....
Never care about modeler tools intergated into layout..
Never care about a CA tools improvement needs....

And we known nothing about the roadmap...
There's some main features at the sigg '05(yes, sigg '05 two years ago!!) still not come true..
When we can /almost see a true reborn LW?

[akademus]

When we can /almost see a true reborn LW?

In 10. With best luck next year in 9.5. It's always been this way. Every time new gen got out, it took at least .5 version in order to get things stable and working good. After 9.2-3 I wouldn't expect nothing else this year. The good thing, though is quite good beta team and Newtek listening what they have to say and ask. Very positive...

[Stone]

Actualy,That's a v9.2.1...Or a v9.2b...

actually its a very apropriate naming as the release contains both the number of bugfixes and new features. if they had only added a few new nodes and shaders the 9.x.x annotation would have been suitable as it would practically be the same release.

anyway, despite being properly labeled as a point release, if it annoys you that much im sure noone forces you to install it.

/stone

[moc-ko]

In 10. With best luck next year in 9.5. It's always been this way. Every time new gen got out, it took at least .5 version in order to get things stable and working good. After 9.2-3 I wouldn't expect nothing else this year. The good thing, though is quite good beta team and Newtek listening what they have to say and ask. Very positive...

Hey,man..
None promised when LW reborn complete......In 10?...Or 11/12?...Who known?...

everyone know about the debug cycle.....If those brandnew changes brought unstable...
I think NT Should do it wide range once or twice......
We can suffer at unstable at one/two point release instead of got many new beta features/tools improvement.....
Because we known there's a better beast we'll get nearly....

But,Did we get any signal ...when?...Or NT still have enough power to get LW reborn?

[moc-ko]

actually its a very apropriate naming as the release contains both the number of bugfixes and new features. if they had only added a few new nodes and shaders the 9.x.x annotation would have been suitable as it would practically be the same release.

anyway, despite being properly labeled as a point release, if it annoys you that much im sure noone forces you to install it.

/stone

1.Pls don't make me like a trouble maker...
2.I didn't annoyed by a point release naming...

I used to be a LWer from v5.5....
I believed that many LWer expect much more change improves....

When we saw the v9 promised features two years ago at sigg'05...
Most of us would said "It's time!!LW got fly".....
After year ,Then NT stuff said "the intergrated processing need longer than we expect before......"Means some biggest main feature still gone...
And then after two years,A v9.3 [beta] out......main Selling point was a sigmaII shader,a faster SSS shader....A camera enchancement.....

Should we make a little complaint?....or a query?
And do you got pleasure in those 9.3 [beta] features?

[Ubik]

I know a few things:

Radiosity is ~100% faster than in 9.2
Modeler received performance update in selection system.
Lots and lots of Universal Binary fixes.
Unseen by radiosity for objects.
New cameras can now render points, edges, lines(2 point polys)

[formerself]

if i update to this newer version while saved objects still be compatible with 9.2. im not sure when my school will be updating, and dont want to take a chance on objects done at home conflicting with the schools non-updated systems

[cyphyr]

I know a few things:

. . . .
Modeler received performance update in selection system.
. . . .
Hmm ... could this mean that the "fixed" zoom limit is sorted in Modeler. You know the one, the further away from the origin an object the less you can zoom in on it. Very annoying when tweaking landscape data that can easily be several hundreds of miles away from 0,0,0!
cyphyr

@ Formerself:
The objects will be compatible with the older LW instalations, right back to 6 I think. Of course if you happen to use a shader thats not on your school system your stuffed. And also of course theres the old addage that you NEVER change your tools halfway through a project unless you have a VERY good reason to.

[FreakWizz]

Hmm ... could this mean that the "fixed" zoom limit is sorted in Modeler. You know the one, the further away from the origin an object the less you can zoom in on it. Very annoying when tweaking landscape data that can easily be several hundreds of miles away from 0,0,0!
cyphyr

No as this is a floating point rounding issue, that is actually quite hard to solve.

[abuminalis]

I know a few things:

Radiosity is ~100% faster than in 9.2
Modeler received performance update in selection system.
Lots and lots of Universal Binary fixes.
Unseen by radiosity for objects.
New cameras can now render points, edges, lines(2 point polys)

That's REALLY NICE, what about rotating the fck light in modeler??!! When newtek add the option? you know, that LITTLE THING every other programs have???!!!

[DigiLusionist]

My word.

After reading some of the usual sniping comments here, I remember why I rarely come to this forum anymore.

Professionalism. It's not just a word. It's a way of acting.

[biliousfrog]

This maybe isn't the place for this but I just wondered whether there's a way round this in the update....Can you deselect OpenGL diffuse shading in modeler?

What I mean by that is:
When tweaking an object that has been textured & lit, for example in a sunny environment, & the diffuse levels have been reduced to 30%, 40% even up to 60% or 70% it is almost impossible to see the mesh properly in modeler without turning up the diffuse to max. This was a major PITA recently when making ammendments to a project, I can't believe that there isn't an option of ambient lighting in modeler.

[bearfoot]

is 9.3 actually available to download at the moment ?


i checked my account at newtek and see a beta link for 9.3 but its not active ?

is there a release date ?

cheers

[ctguitars]

is 9.3 actually available to download at the moment ?
i checked my account at newtek and see a beta link for 9.3 but its not active ?
is there a release date ?


Hi Guys,

I have the same question - this is not a full release is it? It seems to be still a Beta, as in not a full installer or install app.

Cheers
Aidan

[Zarathustra]

My word.

After reading some of the usual sniping comments here, I remember why I rarely come to this forum anymore.

Professionalism. It's not just a word. It's a way of acting.
Self righteousness. It's not just a word. It's two. :D


Ok, well I'll just wait for something official from NT. I don't have time for betas. Thanks. Actually the single point poly rendering would have come in handy the other day. I couldn't figure out why they couldn't render. I didn't realize the perspective camera couldn't do it. Funny.

[DigiLusionist]

Self righteousness. It's not just a word. It's two. :D


Ok, well I'll just wait for something official from NT. I don't have time for betas. Thanks. Actually the single point poly rendering would have come in handy the other day. I couldn't figure out why they couldn't render. I didn't realize the perspective camera couldn't do it. Funny.

It's rather ironic you in particular chose to quote me.

[Zarathustra]

What's ironic is someone talking about professionalism and pontificating on behavior and now what are you up to? Do you have anything to contribute about 9.3 or what, pal? I'm guessing not, so spare us, ok?

[a_joke]

i rarely write in this forum because i'm still learning...but i have full faith in nt. in my opinion they yes ...dropped the ball. got a little big for their britches. but they're making amends and starting to expand the program. people tend to forget why they went for lw and tend to look at what maya, max xsi etc, etc are doing. ive been doodling with lw since ver. 7. and one thing is constant. it's all me. sure the bugs get in the way, but i find a way around. and the new shaders are nice but i remember someone found a way to fake sss years ago. it's all us not the software. what i'm saying is if michaelangelo had a spraycan instead of a paint brush would it not be a michaelangelo painting? i have all the faith in the world in them. nt will get to where they want to get to. but it's up to us to get where we want to go. nt can't help us with that. :thumbsup:

[Tama]

It's rather ironic you in particular chose to quote me.

Indeed, it appears that he likes the shoes and is proud to wear them.

[Zarathustra]

what i'm saying is if michaelangelo had a spraycan instead of a paint brush would it not be a michaelangelo painting?
no, but it wouldn't be as grand.
The rest of what you're saying I don't follow. We can ask for things to be changed or added, but that's it. In lieu of those things happening we can do nothing, create a workaround wherever possible or use something else. That's really it. I agree the more important of the two is artist, not tool, but artists are to various degrees constrained by their tools.

LW is mostly used for lighting, surfacing and rendering so it makes sense for NT to focus efforts there. Along that line, a proper network rendering solution would be great. LWSN is a dinosaur. Vue is easier to network render and the upcoming Modo 301 looks idiot proof.

[abuminalis]

Zarathustra,

It's always nice to read you, your presence is great in our community.

[RobertoOrtiz]

People tone it down.-R

[DigiLusionist]

What's ironic is someone talking about professionalism and pontificating on behavior and now what are you up to? Do you have anything to contribute about 9.3 or what, pal? I'm guessing not, so spare us, ok?

Zara, it's rather sad that your concept of professionalism hasn't changed much over the years.

Sorry, Roberto, I've been doing this far too long to continue to endure this fellow's charm silently.

[Zarathustra]

You know, that's not cool. You'd think by a third post in a 9.3 thread in the LW section of a cg forum you might somehow talk about 9.3, LW or CG in general instead of pontificating and taking shots. If my joke earlier cut to close, well, that's something for you to sort out. Don't take it out on me and further hijack the thread.

[DigiLusionist]

Zara, you took issue with my initial post by taking a shot at me. I wasn't being personal then, you were. So, perhaps the professional thing for the two of us to do is to take Roberto's advice.

I know I, for one, don't wish to act against my own advice.

[DigiLusionist]

*double post*

[mav3rick]

zara is your brother great oddity

[calilifestyle]

Zara, you took issue with my initial post by taking a shot at me. I wasn't being personal then, you were. So, perhaps the professional thing for the two of us to do is to take Roberto's advice.

I know I, for one, don't wish to act against my own advice.


yeah but you had no problem insultaing everone that does come to this place, right. As if your better for not posting here, yet your post is about not posting? i dont understand and i dont need to understand if dont post here for what ever reason, then dont. we dont need to agree on things all the time but just becuase ZAra had the guts to stand up to ppl like you make him look like the bad guy, right.yeah i konw OT.

what i really came to say is these bugfix/point upgrades need to be from within the program i cant handle haveing 9.0 9.2. 9.3 and what ever comes next all installed in my system. they need to add the check for latest version. and if you dont understand why im saying this man how often do you upgrade things and you imagine haveing 6 vesion of itunes(small example if you can think of others then thats fine not like there going to do it, no need to agrue the other side).

[uncon]

what i really came to say is these bugfix/point upgrades need to be from within the program i cant handle haveing 9.0 9.2. 9.3 and what ever comes next all installed in my system. they need to add the check for latest version.

Thats a good point, but then again I don't make a living off of Itunes. If I am in the middle of a project the last thing I want is to potentially brake something with an upgrade, unless it has a major feature. Even then I backup LW and test out the update to make sure everything is still OK everywhere. I still have nightmares about the time OSX auto updated to 10.4.9 and killed a perfectly stable version of Final Cut Pro 4.5.

But if we could have a check for updates, backup current version and install new updates with an option to revert to previous install I am on board!

ALSO: thanks Newtek for the FREE update.

[Tama]

yeah but you had no problem insultaing everone that does come to this place, right. As if your better for not posting here, yet your post is about not posting? i dont understand and i dont need to understand if dont post here for what ever reason, then dont. we dont need to agree on things all the time but just becuase ZAra had the guts to stand up to ppl like you make him look like the bad guy, right.yeah i konw OT.

snip .

Didn't insult me and I think DigiLusionist is the one that had the "guts" to call out the a-holes . Most long time visitors to this forum understand who the malcontents are and just try their best to ignore them.

[phamarus]

Fellow Americans...Peace brothers..:) But what do I know?Im just a swede)


A new hypervoxels attribute mode with distance to particle that makes interpolation between gaps of particles and a multi point/streak mode, and all that also includes point geometry.
Node controlling of Particles that gives extrem control over how particles behaves, simular to thinking particles..and much more improved particle handling for massive particle amounts.

Viper are now able to show glows..and animated previews of animated objects to make it easier to preview objects with particles.

and the former ogo taiki and skytracer has now melted in to one Big A kicking
atmospheric weather system with major boost in speed and will make vue users cry...
and some cooperation with cantarcans fluid engine to integrate a fog and cloud model
together with that.

Well all this is just in my own Lighwave 10 wish release..(
+loads more)
hows that for a focus on something else?

phamarus

[abuminalis]

1- Buy messiah. Autodesk buys every app around, can newtek buy a company once in their life?

2- Hire Steve Worley as Lead Programmer.

3- Melt modeler and layout in one happy program.

[RobotClayton]

These New Version Threads always become a venting forum... I don't mind it though. Look in the Maya/ Max 2008 forums-- same thing. The Maya guys have it worse. They're getting a whole new Version with about the same amount of changes as we got from 9.2 to 9.3... To be honest there really hasn't been all that much done since 7... Just enhancements on what was there. I took a hiatus from 7.5 to 9, and when I got back, nothing had changed other than a few UI modifications... I still love lightwave, but I don't know If I'm staying with LW because I just don't want to learn something else or because It is good.

This is a point relsease. I'm not going to bitch about it. I've been wanting a SSS that wouldn't take a dog-year to render, so I'm happy with that.

P.S. I think we need a cage match. TWO MEN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVES!!!

P.P.S.JEBUS! It's raining hard here!

[monovich]

1- Buy messiah. Autodesk buys every app around, can newtek buy a company once in their life?

2- Hire Steve Worley as Lead Programmer.

3- Melt modeler and layout in one happy program.


1. Newtek has bought other companies / products / designers. I doubt they can afford Messiah. Not everyone wants to be bought.

2. I doubt they can afford Worley. He's probably more profitable then they are.

3. Sounds great!

[billpayer2005]

1- Buy messiah. Autodesk buys every app around, can newtek buy a company once in their life?

2- Hire Steve Worley as Lead Programmer.

3- Melt modeler and layout in one happy program.

I agree !!!

Modo for modeling > Messiah for animating > LW + FPrime for rendering = elegant workflow (even better if it was in one package).

LW could learn a lot from Luxology. Wish they hadn't parted company.

LW + FPrime is leagues ahead of even Mental Ray, for workflow.

[Julez4001]

That would be the biggest dream in the world but my workflow is already that sans Luxology.
Modeler is nothing to sneeze at. 9.2 edges have gotten better especially in selection and sliding.

[abuminalis]

1. Newtek has bought other companies / products / designers. I doubt they can afford Messiah. Not everyone wants to be bought.

2. I doubt they can afford Worley. He's probably more profitable then they are.

3. Sounds great!

1. Everything have a price tag. Maya had a price tag and mudbox too. Maybe if newtek doesn't have the money to do these operations, is another thing, but again they should make a review of the latest 20 years? in the biz, and analyze what went wrong, that they can't afford small companies, with a small team of programmers like both messiah and worley labs.

2. Isn't that sad? My guess is when lightwave stops to be less profitable, Steve Worley will port what is known as the lightwave pearl (fprime) to xsi, max and others. Then the story repeats once again, raising the list of the great plugins that newtek didn't bought just to name a few, Ozone, Sasquatch, Messiah and Shave and Haircut.

[ranhell]

LIGHTWAVE 3D RULES!!!.......:buttrock:


"I AM, A WAVER"

[ringzero]

9.201

........

[biliousfrog]

It was an interesting point about sticking with Lightwave for the right reasons. I use it because I always have, since 5.6 when it was one of THE apps to aspire to own.

It's ideal for what I need at the moment. 9.2 is a great program but I can't help feeling that it's been treading water for a long time whilst everyone else has moved on. I'm sticking with it but only because I find it really hard to learn anything else. That's the problem with being a Lightwaver, it feels so different to any other 3D app...it's a good thing unless you feel yourself wanting to try something else. I bought Messiah ages ago but I really struggle with it because it's too...um, modern? I sometimes get extremely frustrated with Lightwave because I know that I could do something quicker in Max but at the end of the day I KNOW Lightwave & for 95% of things it's fine for me.

So, maybe I'm lazy or past it, too old to learn new tricks...I dunno. I've had my fair share of moans about Newtek but I'm still here & to be honest I can't be bothered to go elsewhere. If you want to use messiah, then buy it...if you want to use FPrime, then buy it...If you need something that only XSI has, then buy that. By all means request features but don't get annoyed if they're not implemented. You wouldn't buy a Ford & then moan that it isn't like a Honda.

Despite it's SDK limitations Lightwave has a massive plugin community. Most of it's short-comings can be solved by a 3rd party application & the greatest thing about Lightwave is that it's cheap...so you can buy the core package & then add onto it with any extra tools that you require. If you need animation tools, buy Messiah...If you need more rendering options, buy FPrime/KRay/Maxwell/Messiah workstation...Need a different modeller, buy Modo....

It's not a solution I know but there's more to Lightwave than the negatives.

[pooby]

You wouldn't buy a Ford & then moan that it isn't like a Honda.


No, but you'd moan if it didn't have a reverse gear

[INFINITE]

zara is your brother great oddity

WHO?? never heard of him........

The fact is Lightwave is great for many reasons, it always has been and I am sure will for years to come.

But Newtek really do need to wake up and pull some tricks out of the bag to keep up with the competition... and keep it's very loyal users/fanbase happy or there will be a 'max' exodus !

[Zarathustra]

"Max exodus" has several definitions. If you mean give up on the app entirely well yes, there's been a lot of people who've done that. Go searching through old threads here and it'll be a lot of, "Oh right, I remember him... and him... yeah that guy was cool" and so on. Of course some of them just got banned. :hmm:

If you mean give up on the exclusivity, brother that's long gone but in that, LW is not alone. From studio to individual you see multi-app usage. Look over a year ago when Wes was trying to put together an Art of LW book. Everyone started asking if they could model with Silo, render with FPrime or Maxwell or even an outside renderer. How much of it had to be done within LW for it to be "art of LW"?

Honestly, I'll never get this app loyalty thing. Yes, I understand the desire to have one app that can do everything for both financial and learning curve reasons but otherwise, I don't get it. I don't understand how if one of us is unhappy with this tool, a feature of it or the direction of it's manufacturer we're "malcontents" or I believe someone here said "a-holes". Ridiculous. Out here in the real world with real projects that need to be done there's no room for app loyalty. You use the best tool you can get your hands on to handle a project. Sometimes there's really only one tool.

Therefore, I see the only reasons for someone's blind app loyalty as:
• financial independence or income all or mostly not derived from cg
• cg needs are narrow enough that the app can satisfy those needs
• complete inexperience/ folly of youth
• somehow have a gain (ie. - financial, prestige, etc) tied to success of app and/or it's manufacturer
• mental instability

So please, if you fall into one or more of the above just, you know, have fun and let others talk, ok? Critical assessments of tools, new features, direction of NT, etc are valuable discussions so enough with attacking the people talking. In fairness, there's no point in getting all bent over the app's shortcomings either. They are what they are, NT is a small company and as such, they're focusing their efforts where they can get maximum return. The major use for LW is final rendering so they've made great strides in rendering as well as texturing with nodes and lighting improvements. That's smart for them. At this point, CA improvements aren't, nor are dynamics and several other things. That's why I think it would be smart to put out a better network rendering system and a Final Gather type output. Make the strongest feature of the app one of the strongest examples of that feature in the industry first before working to try and bring the abysmal parts up to par.

Long story short - major impetus to arguing here is the clash between app loyalty and expecting too much. Both are counter-productive. Unlike my colleague, I don't expect people to put on ties and exhibit some haughty-taughty etiquette. We're artists, we're supposed to be passionate, aren't we? It's just that overzealous loyalty gets in the way a lot and so does ranting about the big shortcomings. And for everyone's sake, can there be room for a sense of humor?

PS - Shout out to abuminalis and calilifestyle for the love and I have no idea who "great oddity" is.

[biliousfrog]

No, but you'd moan if it didn't have a reverse gear

No, I'd laugh at anyone that bought it without checking whether it had a reverse gear first

[Cageman]

That's why I think it would be smart to put out a better network rendering system and a Final Gather type output. Make the strongest feature of the app one of the strongest examples of that feature in the industry first before working to try and bring the abysmal parts up to par.

So true! Aside from some really easy and fast ways of achiving certain animation and deformation, the renderer is probably the main thing I want to use LW for. And, I would like to add to your list of further renderimprovements: Mutlipass/Layer rendering.

Even if I can manage to setup and use the current renderbuffers/multi-scene workflow, there are those that just don't have the time to learn that particular workflow. And renderbuffers aren't that obvios, which means people that look into LightWave for their rendering needs, may not discover the features, so they look elsewhere. Others may find out about renderbuffers, but they simply pass because of the convoluted workflow. And I havn't even talked about customized renderbuffers, or, should I say Renderpasses. That requiers a user to save copies of the objects and use those copies to apply their new shading that outputs the desired pass. So, we are talking about multiscene and multi object workflow in order to take advantage of the wonderfull world of compositing.

No... I want to see something that is as easy to use as the renderer itself. I hope NT put their thinkingcaps on! :)

[MarlonPerez]

Hey all, I'm sort of new to the forums here but been using LW since 7.5. And what I've noticed is there hasn't been much improvement in the animation department. Now I know some people will argue that LW is really used for lighting and rendering.. but thats crap!

I'll tell you why, MANY studios that do work for TV, Advertising and so on still use LW for everything from modeling to final render. Where I work at just so happens to be one of those places, and honestly animating is about 90% of my job flow along with about 18 other animators here. I've had many issues with the graph editor, new scene editor, bones and countless other small issues, without seeing many changes througout these last versions. A few things I would to see is the NEW SCENE EDITOR be integrated into the program and not be a plugin, and also not have my scene crash when I'm saving the scene with my configs are applied to the new scene editor...it really gets to be annoying after the 2nd time. Hell maybe even a dockable and undockable user interface.

How about the graph editor only having one undo? whats the deal with that? And god forbid you add any modifiers on any channel and send a scene to the farm, it'll just error out or crash. The hype about finally getting freeform deformations made me lol...I mean wtf, that was available before maya was even around (wavefront) if I recall correctly. With countless other issues I really don't feel like typing out right now, I think we deserve a major inprovement in that area. well thats just my little rant and personal opinion. We won't know what we'll get in the future until its here. And by then who knows if I'll even be at a studio that uses LW.

just my 2 cents...

[billpayer2005]

Yes. LW animation is like animating with wordpad. Try Messiah.

I think animation is the single thing that LW needs to improve the most.
Modeler integration can wait, and due to LW workflow, any app can replace Modeler.

However, in order to use the gorgeous LW render, you need to put up with the ass animation tools.
Seriously, LW should buy out Messiah + FPrime and integrate them.

[RobertoOrtiz]

Call me an optimist, or a sucker for lost causes, but I have posted this thread to move the conversation in a positive direction.


I mean guys, we can do the same thin always do on these threads,
whine, bully and complain or we can do something about it.

Either stay and do something productive,

From Scratch: Rethinking character animation in Lightwave. (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=5&t=530240)
or leave and go to one of the many countless switch threads in the forum.
Later
-R

[monovich]

Therefore, I see the only reasons for someone's blind app loyalty as:
• financial independence or income all or mostly not derived from cg
• cg needs are narrow enough that the app can satisfy those needs
• complete inexperience/ folly of youth
• somehow have a gain (ie. - financial, prestige, etc) tied to success of app and/or it's manufacturer
• mental instability


I stick around because of all of the acquired knowledge I have. I also stay because of the $ investment I have in plugins. I also stay because of FPrime, which I can't live without. Lastly I stay because I haven't had time to learn another app between projects.

On this current project I'm surrounded by others using another big 3d app, and Im drooling over some of its features. It seriously made me want to switch immediately. Then... they hit render, and my jaw dropped at how long it took them to light and tweak their scenes. I just can't go back to that workflow!

[FreakWizz]

I agree that letting Messiah get away was a huge mistake for NT....

But the developers of Messiah, were programmers for Newtek, so like everybody else with a brain, they realised they could not create the tools they wanted while working for a privateley held and strict regime that NT enforces.....

Luxology had the same epiphany and left to ensure they had creative control, where it's needed...

But i do think Messiah was always underated for CA, and i believe that LW with Messiah and FPrime would indeed make Maya bit of a joke in comparison....

These days however XSI FND, with LW is cheap and effective means to Animate and Render.

[Cageman]

However, in order to use the gorgeous LW render, you need to put up with the ass animation tools.

Uhm? I've animated in Maya and rendered in LW without any problems... take a look here (http://www.ef9.com/ef9/PO.htm) and here! (http://thespread.ghostoutpost.com/Maya2LW2.html)

[pooby]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pooby
No, but you'd moan if it didn't have a reverse gear



No, I'd laugh at anyone that bought it without checking whether it had a reverse gear first



You must get a lot of amusement from us LW users then

[Cageman]

You must get a lot of amusement from us LW users then

To be honest, I'm quite impressed with alot of the work that studios do with LW to this date. And it's not only rendering I'm talking about.

You are right in the sentiment that LW has alot of bizzare and convoluted things going on, but there are projects out there that, when using LightWave, gives the users more benefits than griefs. It's all about knowing where LW does a good job, and use it for that until things have changed with future versions of the software.

[pooby]

Quote:
Originally Posted by billpayer2005
However, in order to use the gorgeous LW render, you need to put up with the ass animation tools.



Uhm? I've animated in Maya and rendered in LW without any problems... take a look here (http://www.ef9.com/ef9/PO.htm) and here! (http://thespread.ghostoutpost.com/Maya2LW2.html)


Yes, it's extremely easy to animate in another package and render in LW.
This vid shows XSI and LW running at the same time swapping animation.. you can even keep Fprime running the whole time.

http://www.bestsharing.com/files/WXT76Z322014/Pointoven.avi.html

[Zarathustra]

I stick around because of all of the acquired knowledge I have. I also stay because of the $ investment I have in plugins. I also stay because of FPrime, which I can't live without. Lastly I stay because I haven't had time to learn another app between projects.

On this current project I'm surrounded by others using another big 3d app, and Im drooling over some of its features. It seriously made me want to switch immediately. Then... they hit render, and my jaw dropped at how long it took them to light and tweak their scenes. I just can't go back to that workflow!
I know, it's been hard for me too because I kept saying I'll just wait until I get maybe a couple weeks or a month with nothing major to do and then I'd get Maya and immerse myself in it or wait until I had a need that only Maya could handle. Well that was dumb on my part. One, when is that free time going to come and two, if you wait until you need it it's too late due to the time needed to get your bearings. Technically, if you're getting your projects done than you still fall within #2 of my list, which I myself fall into as well and have for a long time then I got rocked in the last 18 months with nearly everything LW isn't good for - CA, fluids, particles and dynamics.

I think your last part though goes back to what I was saying about LW's strength - rendering. If you get past the old notion of LW being an all in one tool and instead look at it as a specific tool for a specific need or multiple needs, I think you're a lot better off. You also don't get bent over the shortcomings since you're not as heavily invested in it anymore (mentally, not financially). Ironically, in many ways I enjoy LW more now that I have Maya. Weird.

I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion, Roberto. I don't see what the point is in posting in a thread about how to rebuild CA or anything that hugely messed up in LW, not when there are plenty of tools out there that already handle the problem. Honestly such a thread can be, "well it should be like appX". Everyone knows what's wrong, have known for years and can point to how it's correctly done elsewhere so what's the point? I don't see that as productive. I agree whining is crap and bullying is crap but complaining isn't always crap if it's a legitimate complaint and it's within the realm of reason to assume that it could be resolved. I take issue with your idea that you have to be onboard or go elsewhere. That sounds like that "LW all or nothing" thickheadedness that I've been talking about which is counterproductive. If I'm reading it wrong, sorry, but that's how it sounds.

[theWOODman]

Don't forget too that Lightwave's latest release wasn't supposed to be a fix-all of everything that lightwave needs.

The latest update of Lightwave 9.3 was mostly for rendering and bug fixing, and you have to admit that Lightwave has one heck of a renderer. That's what drew me to Lightwave in the first place.

I'm sure that the developer's efforts will be more geared towards animation and modeler in future releases. There are a lot of good points and bad points that could be said about every modeling program, but pound for pound ( pricing ) Lightwave beats them all.

I bet also that Lightwave has the most "legitimate" license holders than Maya or Max anyway hehe.

[paulrus]

I'm not sure what any of you are talking about. Perhaps you aren't seeing what I'm seeing. There's a great function on CGTalk that makes posts look like this:

This message is hidden because Zarathustra is on your ignore list (http://forums.cgsociety.org/profile.php?do=editlist).

It's amazing how much nicer threads can be when you simply use this feature.

[Julez4001]

The only benefit that I can see Messiah being owned and operated under Newtek is:

Messiah is relieved of the burden of trying to update their renderer and developer section and even then its more a good thing than bad. Sure Messiah wouldn't develop an angle that Newtek probably wouldn't think of but they would be more prone to increase/sharpen the efficienty of their animation tools. Hopefully they get more developer dollars in increasing the tools and integration of messiah into LW.

However as many ppl have said, Messiah is already pretty much the character animation tool in LW pipeline. Thank you PointOven and .mdd format.

Messiah should work on a deformation animation tools (lattice like tool, bend, twist, taper, etc), better pose system, full endomorph support in which it is seamless with Modeler, weight maps, auto rigger and tons of preset expression for rigging and better tools for reoccuring & faster animation setup (face rigs, wings and tails, etc) .

[softdistortion]

... create a workaround wherever possible or use something else.

LW is mostly used for lighting, surfacing and rendering so it makes sense for NT to focus efforts there. Along that line, a proper network rendering solution would be great. LWSN is a dinosaur. ..upcoming Modo 301 looks idiot proof.

Agreed.. Anyone that really uses CA is either sorted with LW work arounds or uses a 3rd party CA app...Expecting NT work on CA is not logical imo...shrug:

[Cageman]

Ironically, in many ways I enjoy LW more now that I have Maya. Weird.

I feel the same way, just that I have come over the "weird" feeling. :) One thing for sure is that I really feel sick when I have to run any of the old versions of LW. :scream:

[biliousfrog]

I'm not sure what any of you are talking about. Perhaps you aren't seeing what I'm seeing. There's a great function on CGTalk that makes posts look like this:

This message is hidden because Zarathustra is on your ignore list (http://forums.cgsociety.org/profile.php?do=editlist).

It's amazing how much nicer threads can be when you simply use this feature.

ooh, that was harsh but it did make me chuckle...anyway, welcome to my ignore list paulrus

Back on track...so LW can now render 2 point polys & handle much more geometry, does this mean that we can finally get hair that renders in FPrime with shadows & reflections? Are we likely to see an updated sasquatch soon?

[Zarathustra]

ooh, that was harsh but it did make me chuckle...anyway, welcome to my ignore list paulrus

Seriously, the ignore list thing isn't good. When we stop listening to each other then we're screwed. As cracked as his comments usually are, I would not add him or anyone to my ignore list. I think that's incredibly ignorant.

Please, everyone ignore the ignore list.

[Shade01]

There's actually been some good points made from both sides of the arguement, and it hasn't even gotten out of hand. I'm impressed.

[stooch]

what are you talking about ? what sniping? looks like legitimate points by legitimate users.

but anyways, i think you have the right idea. dont even come here again, i know i wont miss you.

My word.

After reading some of the usual sniping comments here, I remember why I rarely come to this forum anymore.

Professionalism. It's not just a word. It's a way of acting.

[stooch]

the only one raising a stink in this otherwise informative thread is you. why are you still posting here though? go be professional.

Zara, it's rather sad that your concept of professionalism hasn't changed much over the years.

Sorry, Roberto, I've been doing this far too long to continue to endure this fellow's charm silently.

[stooch]

This message is hidden because paulrus is on your ignore list (http://forums.cgsociety.org/profile.php?do=editlist).


I am sorry, come again?

[DigiLusionist]

Stooch, have I hurt your feelings, or something?

[Shade01]

Hey Stooch are you okay?

[essencedesign]

i love reading LW forums ....

In all honesty, and I'm sure I might get flamed a bit for this, I really see Lightwave SERIOUSLY falling behind. I know it will always have its uses, just like anything, but these other apps are coming out with some very strong and advanced tools.

Working in Lightwave seems like going back in time...

That's my opinion, ....What they need to catch up ? A completely re written dynamics system, a completely re written animation system, and more open expression and script based workflow. NOT more bug fixes , modeling tools, and plugins integrations.

These things NEED to happen , and soon, NO more of these useless releases, and no more pretending there is no problem.

[Cageman]

These things NEED to happen , and soon, NO more of these useless releases, and no more pretending there is no problem.

Try XSI or Maya... great animation/dynamics plugins for LW. I don't think anyone is pretending LW hasn't fallen behind in those areas. Granted, LWs animation/dynamics tools have their uses, but anyone who are serious about those things have added other tools to their pipe, so that they can use LW for what it does a good job at. I think you should join the OB and give feedback when NT starts to adress the animation tools (which I think will be addressed before dynamics).

[essencedesign]

Dynamics and Animation are such a main component of all VFX work .

So without that , what is there ?

If Newtek and Lightwave want to be considered for film level VisFX work, then these things need to be addressed. If they are content with supplying software to television and advertising effects, then great, they have nothing to worry about.

I learned CG on Lightwave , but have since moved on, because Lightwave seems so stuck in the past to me. Its unfortunate, but when the industry refers to your program as "Lightweight" then something needs to be done.

[softdistortion]

... but when the industry refers to your program as "Lightweight" then something needs to be done.

lol...haven't heard that one before...hmmm... Newtek/LW , the Weight Watchers of CG. Gimme some gravy with that celery stick! :surprised

[pooby]

If Newtek and Lightwave want to be considered for film level VisFX work, then these things need to be addressed. If they are content with supplying software to television and advertising effects, then great, they have nothing to worry about.




I don't think there are many who would seriously defend LW in the animation and dynamics arena. We all know it's pretty rubbish, and nowhere is this felt more than by Newtek themselves.
I just hope that the users who are avoiding using better suited packages for animation related issues in the hope that things will sort themselves out in LW, are very patient, because re-doing all this stuff is a mammoth task.

[Cageman]

I don't think there are many who would seriously defend LW in the animation and dynamics arena. We all know it's pretty rubbish, and nowhere is this felt more than by Newtek themselves.
I just hope that the users who are avoiding using better suited packages for animation related issues in the hope that things will sort themselves out in LW, are very patient, because re-doing all this stuff is a mammoth task.

Well, since at least two artists went official with doing dynamics effects for 300 using LightWave (Hybride and Screaming Death Monkey), I wouldn't rule LWs dynamics totaly useless. Clearly, if I can't achive what he did, it's NOT because LW can't; I don't know how to use the tools. Simple.

Having said that, I, personaly, agree with your sentiment. Things can/needs to get alot better and easier! :)

[pooby]

The fact that 300 is a feature film, doesn't by default, elevate LW's dynamics status. It needs to be made clear what the dynamics challenge was and what was achieved by LW.

For example , I'd be far more impressed by a hobbyist making a believable T-shirt with Cloth FX than a feature film using LW's dynamics to shoot arrows (or do anything that doesn't involve anything but the most simple bounce collisions.)

LW CAN be useful for dynamics -There are uses for Cloth FX that go way beyond cloth. It's quite versatile for a wide variety of tasks, partly due to it's (unique?) 2pt poly capability, but it's crap for cloth, and ridid bodies are awful in LW.
Thats the main problem.. it feels like you're hacking BITS of the LW dynamic engine to do things it wasn't designed to do, but ironically, it can't do the things it IS designed to do.

[Stone]

but when the industry refers to your program as "Lightweight" then something needs to be done.

in my point of view and area of work being lightweight is a great quality. just goes to show what people knows if the amount of features and complexity becomes more important than usability and efficiency.

/stone

[toonafish]

ah, great, a thread about 9.3 where I can splill my guts :)

I haven't worked in LW for quite some time, mostly been working in Modo or XSI. But today I had to help out a colleague of mine who is still working in LW so I installed the fresh 9.3 update.

And wow, I must say...what a trip back in time. I mean, not much has changed after all that time. OpenGL is still slow compared to other apps, and then the hub....I mean, geez not a single improvent here....when you're working with "high poly" objects you can make coffee whenever you need to switch from Layout to modeler to make some adjustments. Not to mention the amount of crashes I had when Modeler tried to load a high rez object and just could not cope. And this is a dual quadore with 8 gigs of memory and a 8800 GTX.
It really felt like this scene was almost bringing my system to it's knees, and even in Fprime it took ages to render with the new nodal shaders.

Then I redid the exact same scene in Modo just for fun, man what a difference. Smooth as a babies bottom, rendertimes went from 10 minutes to 20 seconds, and looked mucho better.

Then I loaded some scenes with rigged characters to check on the bone deformation speed improvements.....nada....no improvements whatsoever.

Lightwave still has some neat features, but I think Newtek has a looong road to travel before LW is back on track with the rest.

[Zarathustra]

Dynamics and Animation are such a main component of all VFX work. So without that , what is there ?
Lighting, texturing, and rendering, which is where NT has been focusing their energies.

For example, I'd be far more impressed by a hobbyist making a believable T-shirt with Cloth FX than a feature film using LW's dynamics to shoot arrows
That really sums it up.


I also have to say I don't always agree with what Stooch says, but I love his frankness. It's quite a bonus this time to actually be on the same pages. :D

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