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rmac
08-06-2007, 10:53 PM
It doesn't look to special.


http://pressreleases.autodesk.com/index.php?s=press_releases&item=295%3C%2Ftd%3E

Highlights of Maya 2008
Increased polygon modeling efficiency:
-- Maya 2008 enables artists to quickly create, manipulate and place
polygons that form highly detailed characters and environments, through
a streamlined Mesh Smooth workflow, a new Slide Edge feature and
improvements to Booleans, Bridge, Bevel and other tools.

Overall performance improvements for greater efficiency:
-- With Maya 2008, Autodesk continues the task of optimizing the
software's toolsets to provide greater performance through both
multi-threading and algorithmic speed-ups. For example*:
-- The Poly Reduce function is now up to 30 times faster for a 22k face
poly mesh, and Poly Smooth is now up to 4 times faster
-- The Maya nCloth cache performance up to 3 times faster on a cache of
10k vertices
-- mental ray translation for a 20k mesh instanced 2,000 times is over
20 times faster

Tools for creating better looking games:
-- Maya 2008 is better equipped to create and display content destined for
the Nintendo Wii, Microsoft Xbox 360 and Sony PlayStation 3 game
consoles. It offers support for DirectX HLSL shaders in the Maya
viewport, a new hardware shader API, enhancements to the high-quality
render view, accelerated mental ray texture baking performance, and
more.

Increased flexibility for character setup and animation:
-- Building upon the Maya software's advanced, customizable animation
system, Maya 2008 delivers improved skinning and rigging toolsets,
including new, non-destructive skin editing capabilities. These
enhancements allow animators and Technical Directors to efficiently
explore ideas, manage iterations and get superior results, faster.

Buexe
08-06-2007, 10:54 PM
It will be all good!!! :thumbsup:
Well, sort of, I love lines like this: "Maya 2008 offers more flexibility in its modeling, rigging and rendering tools than ever before." Now what does that mean :rolleyes:

Venkman
08-06-2007, 11:04 PM
It offers support for DirectX HLSL shaders in the Maya
viewport, a new hardware shader API, enhancements to the high-quality
render view, accelerated mental ray texture baking performance, and
more.

That sounds pretty hot- direct x in the viewport! Boo ya! A new hardware shader API, enhancements to high quality render view...

Nice. Anything to speed up the viewport.

I was hoping for nDynamics, though... ;)

jporter313
08-06-2007, 11:15 PM
wow, this is a pretty sparse new version. I haven't used 8.5 yet, but it seems like that was not exactly a revolutionary update either. Are they going to add some new features to Maya anytime soon?

swardson
08-06-2007, 11:18 PM
hum, max 2008... maya 2008... similiar enhacements... I think we are going to see a convergence soon. maybe 2009.

resrving judgement till I see official releases.

-Brad

Apoclypse
08-06-2007, 11:22 PM
I have yet to see a release since like two years ago that has blown me awya for any of the major 3 apps. XSI, Maya, and Max I think have reached their zenith. Ever since 8.0 Maya has been pretty unexciting.

Venkman
08-06-2007, 11:25 PM
Maya 7 got me to purchase. That was a pretty nice one.

Plus I got to see a presentation by a local Maya educator- and he has MAD skills.

SheepFactory
08-06-2007, 11:30 PM
goddamit autodesk , realtime playback and editable motion splines ALREADY please! :(

dagon1978
08-06-2007, 11:32 PM
I was hoping for nDynamics, though... ;)

i was hoping much more...

MMighe
08-06-2007, 11:38 PM
Maya Nucleus Unified Simulation Framework (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=8388581) is in the new features list for maya unlimited...

Venkman
08-06-2007, 11:44 PM
Maya Nucleus Unified Simulation Framework (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=8388581) is in the new features list for maya unlimited...

I am guessing that is because nCloth is the only thing that uses it right now, and that is in Unlimited only...

But this feature
mental ray 3.6 Core
Maya 2008 uses the latest mental ray 3.6 core, a release that boasts dramatic performance improvements in the translation of polygon meshes and instances for rendering, as well as for IPR (Interactive Photorealistic Rendering) startup. Additionally, particle types previously supported only in the Maya hardware renderer can now be rendered in mental ray, eliminating the need to combine outputs from multiple renderers.

More Particles in Mental Ray- nice.

jporter313
08-06-2007, 11:45 PM
hum, max 2008... maya 2008... similiar enhacements... I think we are going to see a convergence soon. maybe 2009.

resrving judgement till I see official releases.

-Brad

Yeah, that could explain the lackluster updates. They may have a lot of their resources tied up in unifying the two applications.

ThomasMahler
08-06-2007, 11:51 PM
Yeah, doesn't sound like much, but let's wait and see. I didn't expect much, though.

shingo
08-07-2007, 12:11 AM
I wouldn't say that. The timing for SIGGRAPH is purely arbitrary in terms of software development cycles. Last year, Softimage released v6.0 just prior to Christmas, which meant they had nothing to announce at SIGGRAPH 2006. I imagine that Maya/Max 2008 and XSI 6.5 were releases that were put out for the sake of a press release.

If any app has reached it's Zenith, then it would have to be MAX. I'm sure there is serious development taking place for Maya and XSI as we speak.


I have yet to see a release since like two years ago that has blown me awya for any of the major 3 apps. XSI, Maya, and Max I think have reached their zenith. Ever since 8.0 Maya has been pretty unexciting.

etobler
08-07-2007, 12:11 AM
Exciting! I can't wait to try it:) All I need now is an update to NEX to work with 2008!

mech7
08-07-2007, 12:13 AM
:scream:wow a new edge slide feature.. wonder if it will finally be able to tweak vertices/edges with highlighting finally (without plugins like NEX)

akeissami
08-07-2007, 12:28 AM
...All I need now is an update to NEX to work with 2008!Already done. Our next installer will include it and will be available soon.

Als
08-07-2007, 01:32 AM
Well this highlights look rather like highlights on my gray hair. :rolleyes:
Well, to smoothen the blow of all this sales rubish nonsense announment, at least they could include mudbox with maya unlimited, but would they? :shrug:

If you want to rotate more polys, just by bigger machine, eh? :sad:

I hope they come clean soon and tell what any of those really mean, since I didn't understand a thing really, and I work with the thing all day :hmm:

Please, tell us more! :wavey:


Als

Koogle
08-07-2007, 01:34 AM
wow a new edge slide feature.. wonder if it will finally be able to tweak vertices/edges with highlighting finally (without plugins like NEX)

hehe doubt it.. and I gonna bet this new edge feature ain't half as good as the NEX edge sliding, or edge sliding+soft selections on.. something you just have to try. Infact the new NEX update thats coming is just something you have to tryout.. truly great intergration of existing tools that are now 10x times faster to use and it really improves your workflow, makes modelling in maya a pleasure :scream:

I dunno which got the better update 3dsmax or maya this year.. it looks like quite a few upgrades to 3ds were just catching up to features available in maya already. Has the 3dsmax viewport poly display speed finally caught upto match maya or surpassed? opengl vs directx? I'm wondering..


Moreover, accelerated draw and selection performance, together with more efficient updating of UI elements, facilitates level editing and speeds overall workflows.
... sounds good :)

Well it doesn't look like a bad update I suppose.. 'x' times faster updates are always nice... but what's this: -- 3ds Max 2008 also provides several mental ray workflow improvements,
including a new mental ray Sky Portal, which simplifies lighting indoor
scenes using outdoor lighting and supports HDRI-based lighting effects. no extra mental ray workflow improvements for maya? :(

rock
08-07-2007, 01:38 AM
Maya 2008 = Maya 2005 + (bug fixes + enhancements) / new bugs

phildog
08-07-2007, 01:48 AM
Maya 2008 = Maya 2005 + (bug fixes + enhancements) / new bugs

haha nice one.

but seriously alot of times all i wanted from a new release of a package is just more stability
etc and that pops up more often than not when you ask around at work at what people want. so i think this is a good thing.

but the mental ray particle improvements sound sweet, and the nucleus unified sim also.

now could they please add self shadowing to volumetrics like software cloud? i think
its about time!! come on maya guys you are falling behind.

also, as a long time user of fluid fx im giving up on it in favour of another package (*cough*) sorry maya. but its just for the fluids... honest... then i will return :p

Airflow
08-07-2007, 01:51 AM
hum, max 2008... maya 2008... similiar enhacements... I think we are going to see a convergence soon. maybe 2009.

resrving judgement till I see official releases.

-Brad


Nah, That will only happen after 2011...

jporter313
08-07-2007, 02:01 AM
Well it doesn't look like a bad update I suppose.. 'x' times faster updates are always nice... but what's this: no extra mental ray workflow improvements for maya? :(

Well, yeah, if they prove to be true, however most of the time when I've heard this sort of claim, the actual improvements end up being really disappointing.

Tamis
08-07-2007, 02:17 AM
i don't think you guys see the point.
You have to think more about maya as a platform to build on for a company.
there's alot improvement done in the lower levels of the aplication as for bug fixes and some parts have been rewriten to run faster and making things more stable.

I mean if you think about it it would be useless to make nieuw modeling tools and simulators ect...

plainly because company's make those tools themselfs any way, what they are doing is making the core off the aplication better witch is realy good thing i mean maya has been buggie for a while now.

Airflow
08-07-2007, 02:33 AM
The solution to the problem isnt more intergration, its less, If you modularise (made up word) a program, not only do you handle computing resouces better, you also handle stability better. So by breaking up a program like max, you would benifit from it.
Lets just say, what they have up their sleve will work better for every industry regardless. :)

Array
08-07-2007, 02:44 AM
goddamit autodesk , realtime playback and editable motion splines ALREADY please! :(

And people wonder why everyone got so upset with the Mudbox acquisition ;)

jude3d
08-07-2007, 03:41 AM
maya 7.0 is the last solid reference for many maya users. I don't understand why autodesk laucnh a maya 2008 in 2007 everybody knows that they will release a next one in 6 months and how they are gonna to call it "maya 2008 half year edition " ? this is totally weird. this version is good but it's not really a new release only an major upgrade at the actual beta stage.

we want nucleus for everything, this thing is really amazing for dynamic.

ci490
08-07-2007, 04:37 AM
I gotta agree with the general concensus of the board, its a minor release. Which in and of itself wouldn't be bad, but it's the 3rd minor release running. Where is nucleous? Those water sims looked sweet on that russian website, but for over a years thats all we got. Now you guys talk about integration with Max? Why? Its just a collection of conflicting plugins. Barely a program at all. Hopefully Maya might be able to perform a decent boolean now. (Fingers Crossed). If they're running out of features to add I could give them some. All that money and not much in the way of adding to anything other polygonal modeling. Big woop. Its just a market driven responce to all the other cheaper more powerful modelers out there. They could always add some studio tools features to the nurbs modeling tools, or add more interactive features to fluid FX. There's tons of things to improve on in Maya. It remains to be seen if they actually fixed or improved anything in the feature set given what a dissapointment maya 8 and 8.5 have been.

sacslacker
08-07-2007, 04:42 AM
8.5 wasn't a dissapointment at all.

TopherMartini
08-07-2007, 04:50 AM
8.5 wasn't a dissapointment at all.
Python, Universal Binary, nCloth.... it was a very good release :thumbsup:

cpan
08-07-2007, 05:24 AM
I gotta agree with the general concensus of the board, its a minor release

based on what? it's funny seeing people come to conclusions when they didn't
even try the software or when the informations are very vague.
(ie smooth workflow remake could mean isoline polys, no? have no clue heh:P)

Alrite! Let's wait and see, maybe more info will come these days :)

ci490
08-07-2007, 05:58 AM
Well, here's hoping there's more to it than what was in the press release.
Ok 8.5 was ok. and it does scream on the mac pro.

SheepFactory
08-07-2007, 06:06 AM
and it does scream on the mac pro.

here is hoping the marking menu bugs are fixed under osx.

Airflow
08-07-2007, 06:16 AM
Posted by ci490
Why? Its just a collection of conflicting plugins

Um, what program isnt?. Definiton of plugin, a peice of code that fits into another peice of code to from a fucntional partnership.
That covers maya, xsi, evey peice of dcc software that been made, And sofar Ive not had any major conflcts with max9 so I suggest you rethink that statment.

deepcgi
08-07-2007, 06:24 AM
I see no reason to upgrade. I just read the new feature list five minutes ago and, for the life of me, can't remember it. As I recall, the number one new feature listed for versions 8.0 and 8.5 was "enhanced workflow". Was it more of that?

All I was hoping for was to layer multiple textures on a mesh with multiple UV sets and actually see it without the textures going all wonky and blurry. If they pulled that off, I'd give them 150 bucks. Otherwise...nah.

And coming from me, that is saying something. You see, I've bought every upgrade they've offered since Power Animator version 5.0 on my SGI Indigo Elan. Surely the end of an era.

leuey
08-07-2007, 06:24 AM
i guess we can finally render particles in mental ray. Only took...what? 10+ revisions for that little tidbit?

I don't have any problem with no 'big/new' features - Maya is vast enough as it is. So I like it that they're improving speed and stability. But $900 is a pretty hefty upgrade price to ask for that. Also, I **hope** there will be 64-bit support for OS X - assuming Leopard ships in a couple of months, it would be nice to see.

-G

vrf
08-07-2007, 06:25 AM
I'm all for faster and more stable, although it's hard to convince a boss to buy it when you just upgraded to "faster and more stable" computers... :)

Iconoklast
08-07-2007, 06:47 AM
From: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7635643
Additionally, a new Slide Edge feature—as well as significant enhancements to Booleans, Bevel, Bridge, Reduce, and other tools—can let you model more efficiently. Maya 2008 also delivers two new selection management features: X-Ray selection highlighting and the ability to “pick walk” edge loops.

Anyone have an idea what this X-Ray selection highlighting might be?

Airflow
08-07-2007, 06:52 AM
It could be prolly like in max, where you can toggle the mesh or the selection, be they objects or components see through.

jporter313
08-07-2007, 07:56 AM
i don't think you guys see the point.
You have to think more about maya as a platform to build on for a company.

Yeah, that's great if you work at ILM.

I however work with Maya at home, with no dev team backing me up. At work, I lead a team of 3 guys, one of the other ones knows how to use Maya, and guess what, no-one to write us modeling tools or slick plugins.

I understand that Maya was created with this great extensible architecture so that big companies could add what they needed to it. But the userbase for Maya has expanded beyond huge shops to freelancers, Motion Graphics boutiques, hobbyists, and other people who can't afford a full time development staff. Autodesk needs to keep this in mind when they're planning the future of their product.

ThomasMahler
08-07-2007, 08:11 AM
It's quite interesting that people always assume that less features means more stability. When has that ever been the case? People here have been saying this for years. As Maya 6.5 came out... "Oh, it's not a huge update, but it's probably so much more stable!" - not true. 8.0? Same thing. 8.5? Same thing.

Let's wait and see how good or bad 2008 actually is. Also, does that mean for us that there won't be a 2 releases-cycle anymore? So do we get a new Maya every Siggraph now?

dafloW
08-07-2007, 08:49 AM
there will be a huge boost to MR IPR ( with FG) performance in maya....

PaulAdams
08-07-2007, 09:46 AM
I wonder if this version will be free of a 30 second lag every time you click-select something when using a Dual Monitor/Geforce 7800.

urgaffel
08-07-2007, 09:58 AM
I'd be happy if it would stop crashing after editing uvs for extended periods of time :P Seriously though, some of the modeling tools in Maya could definitely use with some improvments such as interactive beveling instead of the tweak-values-apply-undo-repeat-until-happy. Proper sliding will be nice but I wish they'd introduce the "Keep uv" toggle from max so you can do minor mesh edits without worrying about the uvs getting messed up :sad:

StefanA
08-07-2007, 10:10 AM
At first 8.5 looked very promising with Python, nCloth and Geometry Cache... but the bugs that came with it, damn we have never had this much problems with Maya. I don't know if we will ever upgrade, it has to be something damn revolutionary. I don't know what's going on in the developer industry right now, but it feels like everyones last versions has been really flakey. With the exception of Modo :)

Anyhow, I keep my fingers crossed it will be a really good upgrade and that I can stop complaining so much... or be afraid of trying to make passes with render layers....

/stefan

Kabab
08-07-2007, 10:12 AM
II wish they'd introduce the "Keep uv" toggle from max so you can do minor mesh edits without worrying about the uvs getting messed up :sad:
I think you can do that in 8.5 you may need bonus tools but...

ThomasMahler
08-07-2007, 10:49 AM
I don't know what's going on in the developer industry right now, but it feels like everyones last versions has been really flakey. With the exception of Modo :)


Yeah, it's amazing how, especially Modo, doesn't seem to have any Bugs! I mean, it's crazy. It doesn't crash 5 times a day, it's really stable and it's revolutionary every time around. I mean, just look at how awesome the painting module is in Modo, it's just awesome!

Sarcasm aside, personally, I see a trend in shifting software in the entertainment industry away from those huge, technical packages to something that artists really like to use, software that is interactive and fun to work with. From a modeling point of view, I think Silo 2.0 is pretty darn kickass. It still needs a little configuration love to really get it going, but the way it streamlines sculpting/brush tools and simple polyEditing tools is really great. Silo is my 'no bullshit' software of choice. Sadly, the Nevercenter guys really don't think much of marketing their tools properly.

Anyway, I think this could be an okay Maya release. From a modeler point of view, I'm pretty sure that they won't have sliding implemented the way you'd want it to and I'm very sure that the highlighting thing they came up with isn't a good implementation of pre-selection highlighting, but the rest of it sounds good. I'm not expecting groundbreaking stuff anymore, though.

Tamis
08-07-2007, 01:19 PM
Yeah, that's great if you work at ILM.

I however work with Maya at home, with no dev team backing me up. At work, I lead a team of 3 guys, one of the other ones knows how to use Maya, and guess what, no-one to write us modeling tools or slick plugins.

I understand that Maya was created with this great extensible architecture so that big companies could add what they needed to it. But the userbase for Maya has expanded beyond huge shops to freelancers, Motion Graphics boutiques, hobbyists, and other people who can't afford a full time development staff. Autodesk needs to keep this in mind when they're planning the future of their product.



yes your right thats the whole point tho...

Better modeling tools new features target: small independed company's
More stabilaty bugfixes and new programming languages target: Big company's

now autodesk just looks at what is the bigest money source ?? it used to be small company's, but now a days the bigger company's are taking over and even small company's hire programmers for tools development.

Now what is left is the userbase witch is pritty damn big but when you think about it atleast 50% uses a cracked copy of maya so they arn't making mutch money out of that either.

thats whay all those programs like maya ar so damn expencive.

dagon1978
08-07-2007, 01:39 PM
there will be a huge boost to MR IPR ( with FG) performance in maya....

really? :)
are you a betatester or what?

CIM
08-07-2007, 02:03 PM
People always whine about upgrades. Here's a tip: don't upgrade if you can live without the "new features".

Venkman
08-07-2007, 03:06 PM
Also, I **hope** there will be 64-bit support for OS X - assuming Leopard ships in a couple of months, it would be nice to see.

It looks like the Mac release is 32-bit only.

They support 64-bit in Windows 64 and Vista Business edition.


The 32-bit version of Autodesk® Maya® 2008 software is supported on any of the following operating systems:

Microsoft® Windows Vista™ Business
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional (SP2 or higher)
Red Hat® Enterprise Linux® 4.0 WS (U4)
openSuSE Linux 10.2
Fedora™ Core 5
Apple® Mac OS® X 10.4.9 (PowerPC® and Intel® versions of Maya)
The 64-bit version of Maya 2008 software is supported on any of the following operating systems:

Microsoft Windows Vista Business
Microsoft Windows XP x64 Edition (SP1 or higher)
Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4.0 WS (U4)
openSuSE Linux 10.2
Fedora Core 5

floze
08-07-2007, 03:13 PM
Does anyone have news on the mental ray 3.6 core? I mean not the mayatomr translator, but the actual core?

Ollarin
08-07-2007, 05:27 PM
Everytime they make an update, people get angry, if they don't make updates, people get angry. So either way they get the bad end of things it seems. :P

Well, if you don't like it, then don't use it, go to some other software that has what you need. :/
(Just my opinion, not meant to offend anyone.)

Hope they give more details on the rigging and animation tools!

MrPositive
08-07-2007, 05:43 PM
So, this won't be called Maya 9.0?

Venkman
08-07-2007, 06:08 PM
So, this won't be called Maya 9.0?

From the Maya high end 3d list:


Autodesk started naming Autocad by years back in 2005 and then started
naming all their discreet products like that last year, so it was only
a matter of time.

Some of the new features they showed off yesterday were pretty cool
had to do with rigging and new Ncloth stuff. A big one was the further
integration with Maya and Toxik(which had a huge price drop to $3500
and no oracle database required now).

-deke



and from lee lanier's siggraph blog


Autodesk packed them into the Marriott for their annual uber-user’s group. Aside from tons of great demo reel material, they demonstrated new, cool stuff from Max 2008 and Maya 2008. Subtle but important changes to lighting and rigging left the audience cheering like only hard-core animators can.

inguatu
08-07-2007, 07:38 PM
So, this won't be called Maya 9.0?

I guess you missed the topic titled: Autodesk Annouces Maya 2008 (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=4571857#post4571857)

swardson
08-07-2007, 08:57 PM
Yeah, it's amazing how, especially Modo, doesn't seem to have any Bugs! I mean, it's crazy. It doesn't crash 5 times a day.

wow, they must have really fixed things since version 2 cause mine crashed constantly, on every machine, both platforms

-Brad

MrPositive
08-07-2007, 10:44 PM
I guess you missed the topic titled: Autodesk Annouces Maya 2008 (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=4571857#post4571857)
No, actually I didn't miss it. But kudos for being a prick.

Als
08-08-2007, 12:01 AM
The thing which puzzles me, is why the version is not called 2007. Or we are not supposed to use it untill next year, or they will not come up with new release until 2009?
And yeah, maya 8.5 is really buggy.
MR crashed maya randomly, and modelling tools are so unstable that very often I go back to version 7 to do things, and to check that I didn't go mad. Nurbs loft is doing all sorts of weird stuff. I hope they fixed those things.
I still would really like metaballs in there. I really would like to see better boleans too.
Still the most problematic thing I'm missing in using Maya is trouble free rendering. It's always the most painfull part of the process, scratching head whcih render to use when doing one thing or the other, and very often none of them works...or just simple crashes.
Ncloth on the other hand is amazing and really really usefull tool for animation.


Als

gent_k
08-08-2007, 11:41 AM
wow, they must have really fixed things since version 2 cause mine crashed constantly, on every machine, both platforms

-Brad

He was being sarcastic. :)

ronaldomiranda
08-08-2007, 12:21 PM
Maya 2008 delivers improved skinning and rigging toolsets,
including new, non-destructive skin editing capabilities



That we have been waiting for such long time!

Great news autodesk crew! I love all of you!
i swear!

jeremybirn
08-08-2007, 03:32 PM
and from lee lanier's siggraph blog

Quote:
Autodesk packed them into the Marriott for their annual uber-user’s group. Aside from tons of great demo reel material, they demonstrated new, cool stuff from Max 2008 and Maya 2008. Subtle but important changes to lighting and rigging left the audience cheering like only hard-core animators can.

Note that the rendering features or "changed to lighting" that were shown were in Max.

I don't recall anything like that even being mentioned or demo'd using Maya, much less drawing applause.

-jeremy

EricLyman
08-08-2007, 04:18 PM
-- The Poly Reduce function is now up to 30 times faster for a 22k face
poly mesh, and Poly Smooth is now up to 4 times faster

If they've really made the poly smooth four times faster, it would be a huge improvement in my books. It's very much a part of my modeling work flow. Here's hoping!

Buexe
08-08-2007, 04:21 PM
Maya 2008 delivers improved skinning and rigging toolsets,
including new, non-destructive skin editing capabilities

Wonder what that specifically means? Anything they mentioned regarding SmoothProxy functionality?

EricLyman
08-08-2007, 04:28 PM
So, this won't be called Maya 9.0?

It's just better marketing for their products. Microsoft caught on to this a while back when they released 'Windows 95'. The idea being, I reckon, that when it's the year 2009 or 2010 and you're using 'Maya 2008', you are subtly reminded that your software is a few years out of date.

I don't have the inside scoop on this, but it seems logical.

MrPositive
08-08-2007, 05:41 PM
It's just better marketing for their products. Microsoft caught on to this a while back when they released 'Windows 95'. The idea being, I reckon, that when it's the year 2009 or 2010 and you're using 'Maya 2008', you are subtly reminded that your software is a few years out of date.

I don't have the inside scoop on this, but it seems logical.

That makes alot of sense. Just not being at Siggraph for the first time in 8 years, I wasn't there to get the lowdown on the howdown on the name shift. I really do hope they updated some of their lighting features and possibly fixed their wonky UV Layout system (I've fallen in love with uvLayout). Regardless, I'm one to get excited about efficiency increases, however I don't have a 64bit professor computer. :(

fbonniwell
08-08-2007, 08:30 PM
wow, this is a pretty sparse new version. I haven't used 8.5 yet, but it seems like that was not exactly a revolutionary update either. Are they going to add some new features to Maya anytime soon?

I couldn't agree more! It feels like they only have 1 programmer on staff.
8.5 was actually a decent update with the nucleus system. Other then that, nothing as impressive as XSI's updates. XSI is looking better everyday.

F

beaker
08-09-2007, 08:56 AM
The thing which puzzles me, is why the version is not called 2007. Or we are not supposed to use it untill next year, or they will not come up with new release until 2009?Why do 2008 model cars start shipping 6 months into 2007? It's a marketing thing, don't get hung up over something as basic as a name. It's almost as bad as people bitching about the intro window or the icon.

beaker
08-09-2007, 08:58 AM
Also, I **hope** there will be 64-bit support for OS X - assuming Leopard ships in a couple of months, it would be nice to see.Leopard only has 64 bit libraries for Cocoa, not Carbon, which Maya is written in. So I don't see a 64 bit version anytime soon.

jordibares
08-11-2007, 05:56 PM
Nucleus is not really big deal compared to what SideFX has done, a fully unified simulation system, from RBD,Cloth,fluids,particles... If you look at XSI, also the continuous refinement and development of tools have been impressive.

I couldn't agree more! It feels like they only have 1 programmer on staff.
8.5 was actually a decent update with the nucleus system. Other then that, nothing as impressive as XSI's updates. XSI is looking better everyday.

F

Steve Green
08-11-2007, 09:14 PM
Regarding the 2008 thing - it could work the other way.

It's a good job they didn't have that in place for combustion, otherwise it would emphasise how long it's been since a major update.

- Steve

Als
08-12-2007, 02:19 PM
Hi Jordi!
I guess you are lucky one to work on all of those, but Houdini is too expensive for small shops like ours.
Also I agree that XSI and Houdini have better vision of future and where they are going with their packages. It seems they follow trend closer and update way faster. But I'm not using either of those at the moment, so tell us more what you think it's apsolute must maya should have which make your life easier in XSI or Houdini?

Thanks


Als

dantea
08-12-2007, 04:20 PM
I guess you are lucky one to work on all of those, but Houdini is too expensive for small shops like ours.

Too expensive? It's only $8K USD for a node-locked license with unlimited rendering tokens. It's renderer is production proven and most recently used for some shots on Transformers.

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=385&Itemid=190

mustique
08-12-2007, 04:56 PM
I barely scratched the surface of Houdini with the free noncommercial versions in the past.
Houdini 9 is gonna change the landscape of 3d quite a lot IMO.
The new version is more userfriendly now for artists.

The new UI is a very good step to access the huge power underneath.
(They could have kept the color coded work environments though)
The new fluid solver is impressive. Things work much more integrated due
to the parametric nature of Houdini. Where maya would need a good MEL scripter
for a specific task, Houdini jumps in wit its networks of nodes (called operators)
which can be reused for different jobs. (Think of Shake macros)

But it's still a demanding program for the freelance guy.

While the native mantra renderer is better than the maya one,
you'll still want the renderman and/or mray renderer along with it.
Especially the renderman connection to Houdini is said to be very good.

You just have to download the free public beta and decide for yourself.
The only big thing that lacks right now is the amount of training material.

Als
08-12-2007, 05:55 PM
At first 8.5 looked very promising with Python, nCloth and Geometry Cache... but the bugs that came with it, damn we have never had this much problems with Maya. I don't know if we will ever upgrade, it has to be something damn revolutionary. I don't know what's going on in the developer industry right now, but it feels like everyones last versions has been really flakey. With the exception of Modo :)

Anyhow, I keep my fingers crossed it will be a really good upgrade and that I can stop complaining so much... or be afraid of trying to make passes with render layers....

/stefan


Yes. I'm using maya since version 1, and I never had this many maya crashes "for no reason what so ever". If I just cough too loud, maya crashes. As I heard update did introduce new bugs. If this new release doesn't at least bring stability, what would be reason to update? Need better performance? Just buy faster new machine with more RAM!
Does the same thing, plus runs other software faster as well!
I'm truly disapointed...


Al

Als
08-12-2007, 06:01 PM
Too expensive? It's only $8K USD for a node-locked license with unlimited rendering tokens. It's renderer is production proven and most recently used for some shots on Transformers.

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=385&Itemid=190



Well, I didn't know they sell directly over the net.
Prices in UK are almost double for everything comparing to US prices.
OK, I have to correct my self, Houdini used to be much more then maya, and now it's still more then maya...
It's quite difficult to say "alrighty the, maya is crap, we need to buy Houdini, that's great" since we recently purchased maya 8.5....
Can Houdini render millions of particles with shadows and motion blur?

Just look at the PDF download on autodesk website.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7635643

On a page two, spiderman and sandman. That was NOT rendered with maya nor mental ray, for sure! Nor with RFM. Anyone knows what they used to actually render particles for sandman?


Thanks


Als

jeremybirn
08-12-2007, 06:34 PM
On a page two, spiderman and sandman. That was NOT rendered with maya nor mental ray, for sure! Nor with RFM. Anyone knows what they used to actually render particles for sandman?

Sandman was rendered with Renderman:
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/searchlist/8140.html
However, as a general rule, pretty much anything impressive and new that you see in any movie depends on a lot of R&D at a studio, and shouldn't be taken as a feature you should expect to get right out of the box with any software.

-jeremy

fahr
08-12-2007, 06:59 PM
Just started playing with the free Houdini Apprentice. I'm amazed at how Maya-like the interface and underlying philosophy is. The new interface feels very intuitive and friendly. Very impressed with the interface and features so far. The integrated Mantra renderer is especially exciting, I've heard lots of good things about it. Since Houdini is usually the "go-to" app at big studios for particle effects, I imagine it's very capable at rendering obscenely complex shots. Can't wait to try out the muscle system. The only major feature I see lacking in the program so far is long hair rendering and dynamics. Hope that hole is filled soon.

Venkman
08-12-2007, 09:32 PM
For $2000, Houdini Escape is pretty expensive for not even having dynamics of particles. Maya Complete at least has those for $2k.

Are there third party options for Houdini like Shave and a Haircut for Maya, or that 3rd party fluid solver, Glu3d (if that is the right name)? I know syflex is available for Houdini.

But no dynamics seems pretty big to leave out. I do hear that the dynamics in Houdini are absolutely top-notch. Perhaps that is why it is only in the upper tier product.

fahr
08-12-2007, 09:38 PM
No dynamics in the 2k version sucks, but for 8k its a deal, considering up until recently it was $17k. A few things of note, however, is that the 2k version does come with a muscle system, a compositor, and (I think) free unlimited render licences of Mantra, a very solid, modern production renderer. So, price-wise, things kind of even out there. Plus, I heard a rumor that Houdini might be supporting additional platforms in the near future... ;)

Mr Moose
08-12-2007, 09:48 PM
For $2000, Houdini Escape is pretty expensive for not even having dynamics of particles. Maya Complete at least has those for $2k.Houdini Master and Escape are extremely interoperable with eachother. If for instance you make a Dynamics asset using Master, that asset can be handed-off to an artist using the cheaper Escape and they'll have full access to all the parameters in that asset to animate / render the shot - they just cant get into the asset to edit it under the hood. Working in this way you'll need vastly fewer Master seats than you might first think.

FYI - Houdini has two kinds of particles: Particles present in the Geometry Context which are what gave Houdini it's name way back when; and the more recent particles from the Particle Context (POPS). The Geometry Context based particles are included in Escape and are still very powerful - see the old 3DBuzz tornado tutorials for an illustration.

:)

Als
08-12-2007, 11:25 PM
Sandman was rendered with Renderman:
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/searchlist/8140.html
However, as a general rule, pretty much anything impressive and new that you see in any movie depends on a lot of R&D at a studio, and shouldn't be taken as a feature you should expect to get right out of the box with any software.

-jeremy

Thanks a lot for the link.
If only I could explain this to clients which expect sometimes from us to do effects which take years of R&D, and maybe few years of production - to do in few weeks, for few bucks!
Sandman birth is an amazing sequence, and if I might add - movie on it's on.
It's one of the most amazing short art movies I've ever seen. Poetry in motion.
And I understand that it takes lot's of R&D to do amazing stuff like that.
But I'd only would like to be able to render lot's particles with shadows and motion blur, which is why we bought RFM. But it looks like we will have to get full license of renderman studio to be able to do that...

Thanks


Als

dafloW
08-12-2007, 11:31 PM
Maya 2008 should do the job (announced to render HW particles with MR).

jeremybirn
08-13-2007, 12:06 AM
But I'd only would like to be able to render lot's particles with shadows and motion blur, which is why we bought RFM. But it looks like we will have to get full license of renderman studio to be able to do that...

I don't know exactly what difference you are expecting to see there. RFM and Renderman Studio are both using the same renderer, with the same shadows and motion blur. Renderman Studio will output rib files for distribution over a render farm, instead of using a local copy of PRMan that runs as a Maya plug-in, and it comes with SLIM which is a great way to edit Renderman shaders, but you are talking about the same renderer in both configurations. If your problem is speed, then yes you might need more computers and might need to distribute ribs over a farm. If your problem is memory, then maybe just you need more RAM.

-jeremy

Als
08-13-2007, 03:07 AM
I don't know exactly what difference you are expecting to see there. RFM and Renderman Studio are both using the same renderer, with the same shadows and motion blur. Renderman Studio will output rib files for distribution over a render farm, instead of using a local copy of PRMan that runs as a Maya plug-in, and it comes with SLIM which is a great way to edit Renderman shaders, but you are talking about the same renderer in both configurations. If your problem is speed, then yes you might need more computers and might need to distribute ribs over a farm. If your problem is memory, then maybe just you need more RAM.

-jeremy

Well, I'm familiar with RAT, I've even ordered the first version which came out for maya, and it came in original pixar box and a book! ;)
I'm not sure if the problem is memory, but I could not render 500.000 particles, because maya just crashes or hangs. I have winXP, and I'm not sure how much more RAM would do the job. But this was just a test, and I need much much more particles to render, and I wonder if they done varius passes and tricks in order to manage rendering so much particles. I also stumbled on Krakatoa renderer for max, which seems to cope with so much particles, but I haven't tested it yet myself.

Thanks


Als

jordibares
08-13-2007, 11:30 PM
Hi Jordi!
I guess you are lucky one to work on all of those, but Houdini is too expensive for small shops like ours.

Not really, we have these 3 tools among others but because this is a bussiness, you invest, you pay and therefore you can produce and charge for it.

:)

cheers

jordibares
08-13-2007, 11:33 PM
Slim great???? ehem.... ;-)

I don't know exactly what difference you are expecting to see there. RFM and Renderman Studio are both using the same renderer, with the same shadows and motion blur. Renderman Studio will output rib files for distribution over a render farm, instead of using a local copy of PRMan that runs as a Maya plug-in, and it comes with SLIM which is a great way to edit Renderman shaders, but you are talking about the same renderer in both configurations. If your problem is speed, then yes you might need more computers and might need to distribute ribs over a farm. If your problem is memory, then maybe just you need more RAM.

-jeremy

mr Bob
08-14-2007, 12:27 AM
Als ,
For me no other application comes close to the abilty of working with renderman out of the box.

B

Als
08-14-2007, 11:23 PM
Most of the time, I'm the only 3D person. That small shop!
And I'm not making buying decesions, therefore, very difficult to convince boss to buy more kit since I'm only one using it most of the time...
I'm working on it anyways... :)

Thanks Jordi, Jeremy, Mr. Bob!


Als

jude3d
08-15-2007, 05:46 AM
we could handle easily millions of particles with renderman studio, so you may have a problem here with your scene. If you have rfm 2.0 you have to know some people had bugs and problems with it. We only use rms and pro server here so I can't help you more on this. pixar is on the fixed update so wait for the next update of rfm.

And about the sandman this is not so difficult to do and it doesn't need much more r&d as you 're thinking. this is just some good particles animation and a sand shader created with renderman, just need some tricks here and a lot of time to setup all and that's it. ;)

I tested particle with mental ray 3.6 and it's not so good as with prman and the amazing deep shadow. I will continu to render all this with prman it's much faster and beautifull

beaker
08-15-2007, 08:00 AM
And about the sandman this is not so difficult to do and it doesn't need much more r&d as you 're thinking. this is just some good particles animation and a sand shader created with renderman, just need some tricks here and a lot of time to setup all and that's it. ;)Yea, no problem doing the Sandman, it only took Sony 2 years to do that shot :)

Als
08-16-2007, 12:49 AM
Hi Jude!
I was doing the test with Rfm v1.2, not renderman, but then lately maya 8.5 has been crashing on me when I cough, so I'm not sure what is wrong...
I'm afraid that you might be slightly wrong about the amount of R&D to do the shot of sandman. Never the less, I still think the shot is real masterpiece!
It might look easier, but on the other hand if you have some insight into making of sandman, please feel free to spill the beans... :)


Als

jordibares
08-16-2007, 12:19 PM
This Siggraph there was an special session or two about Sandman and how it was made and it is exceptionally complex, and I believe there are some docs about it on the full conference CD so get a copy and have a look.

hope it helps



Hi Jude!
I was doing the test with Rfm v1.2, not renderman, but then lately maya 8.5 has been crashing on me when I cough, so I'm not sure what is wrong...
I'm afraid that you might be slightly wrong about the amount of R&D to do the shot of sandman. Never the less, I still think the shot is real masterpiece!
It might look easier, but on the other hand if you have some insight into making of sandman, please feel free to spill the beans... :)


Als

beaker
08-16-2007, 12:40 PM
I'm afraid that you might be slightly wrong about the amount of R&D to do the shot of sandman.From the horses mouth:
Development began two years ago with a team of technical directors, led by sand effects supervisor Doug Bloom, who came up with a pipeline and toolset. "We figured that the more they could duplicate the physics of sand, the better off they'd be, since story and storyboards and animatics were still being worked on," Bloom explains. "We wanted to prepare to emulate any possible behavior. We wanted the sand to look as realistic as possible and then later art direct and break away from reality of physics." There is a good read up in cinefex. You can read the rest of what I quoted here:
http://vfxworld.com/?atype=articles&id=3293

Als
08-17-2007, 12:15 AM
Thanks!
I'm really curious to find out more, so I will probably get that Cinefex. I will check the siggraph stuff too. Great article on VFX too!
My favourite part on all siggraph presentations:
"And then we got 10 people with Phd in computer science, who spend x ammount of time and wrote the plugin to solve the problem".
Nice !
I wish they talked at Oscar night about how complicated and difficult these effects are, and make little siggraph, get some of those people breakthrough scientists to talk about it.

Magic should be part of entertainment as well!
Houdini, heh...

Cheers


Als

Ollarin
08-18-2007, 05:22 AM
The Maya 2008 feature videos are up.

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=9974388

Haven't had a chance to watch it yet, it's still downloading. (Crappy DSL)

todd4cgi
08-18-2007, 05:42 PM
I think I'll stick with Modo. At the lackluster pace Autodesk is upgrading Maya and Max I'm betting Modo will catch up to them in a couple years.

Although I have to admit it's rather clever for Autodesk to switch to naming their apps by 'year'. Maya 2008? 3DSMAX 2008? That way, when Maya 2009 or Max 2009 comes out no one can say, "Is this a full point upgrade, or a .5 upgrade?" Who's to say, right? Hey, keep paying those "maintenance fees" to Autodesk. They keep making money whether you like the upgrade or not.

cpan
08-18-2007, 05:49 PM
Although I have to admit it's rather clever for Autodesk to switch to naming their apps by 'year'. Maya 2008? 3DSMAX 2008? That way, when Maya 2009 or Max 2009 comes out no one can say, "Is this a full point upgrade, or a .5 upgrade?" Who's to say, right? Hey, keep paying those "maintenance fees" to Autodesk. They keep making money whether you like the upgrade or not.

excuse my ignorance... you're buying software by the version naming or by the
features/updates in got? :argh:

as for the demos, maya 8.5 got scarce 'whats new' and demo movies aswell, but it was
quite a nice update, if not the best .5 in maya's history. ;)

todd4cgi
08-18-2007, 06:37 PM
excuse my ignorance... you're buying software by the version naming or by the features/updates in got? :argh:

No, I was simply floating an idea about the reasons for the naming change. But, hey, if the new features in each upgrade are substantial enough, then who cares what they call it.

I'm watching the new features videos for Maya 2008, and I have to admit that the new features are impressive. I know some people may want "more" new features per upgrade. But, if you're a Maya user I would think that you would be happy with Maya 2008.

It all comes down to the user workflow that makes sense to you. I'm being drawn more and more towards XSI as far as learning a major 3D app. At least until Modo catches up. Maya is still too 'right-click /drop-down-menu' heavy for me.

Als
08-19-2007, 05:17 PM
Hmmm... XSI is tempting again with two very smart moves, MOD and low prices at the moment. Is this end of the cycle and XSI will take back from autodesk?
Softimage has SOOOOOOOO much better PR department.
If you take a look on their website you have new tool for gamers, then lower price, then cool graphics and every one of those asking to be clicked on!
New maya videos? Buch of text and boring long lines of text, pages totally identical to each other!
I wonder where are those people who worked in ex alias R&D dept. in LA? Looks like this is now catching up with them.
I would really like to know how many people work in R&D dept. on maya now, and what they are doing ?
The worst thing with 8.5 which would otherwise be great release, is that stability is so bad, I NEVER seen maya crash so much. I didn't have time to reinstall sp1, but is this more stable version?
I really hope this is not the case with 2008.
I also hate new name, because it makes so much logistical problems on forums, etc.
Now instead v9 you have v2008. Such a stupid idea...
nCloth is only thing really which keeps me happy on maya...



Als

todd4cgi
08-20-2007, 02:27 AM
Yea, I'm hoping to take advantage of the $1,995 price for 'XSI Essentials' that ends September 6th. Which happens to be my birthday. I work in visual effects for a living, so I really want to get a handle on XSI's compositing abilities that come in Essentials and Advanced.

jude3d
08-20-2007, 02:19 PM
maya R&D is the same as before in canada and all alias people are on the devellopment of maya. Before alias develloped a new release of maya per year now it's 2 release per year with autodesk so it become pretty insane at each one now.

maya 2008 is a good upgrade but it's not really a release, lots of improvments on existing tools, really nice things. I spoke with some of the dev team and they would to bring the all older core to a new one to be faster, accurate and much more powerfull. This will be a long process to develop the nucleus and reupdate old tools. maya main core is 10 years old now, it's pretty old compare to new software like modo ...
I'm still really impress by the power of maya architecture and I like the new way to get a real time dynamic solver tool with nucleus. I would love a nucleus for particules, fluids, hair and fur in maya, it would be really nice.

beaker
08-21-2007, 03:41 AM
maya R&D is the same as before in canada and all alias people are on the devellopment of maya. Before alias develloped a new release of maya per year now it's 2 release per year with autodesk so it become pretty insane at each one now.You really should look at history because in reality it is exactly the same as it was before. There is no difference in releases then there were before the aquisition. Even releases always have a .5 releases with big under the hood architecture changes to the api (2.5, 4.5, 6.5, 8.5). With the exception of 4.5(bad economy time around 2001 and the move to Mental Ray), all the others were released within 6 months of a major release.

jordibares
08-21-2007, 09:41 AM
Is this just an opinion or something you definetly know? these companies keep their R+D staff numbers pretty much as a trade secret.

maya R&D is the same as before in canada and all alias people are on the devellopment of maya.

beaker
08-21-2007, 10:39 AM
Is this just an opinion or something you definetly know? these companies keep their R+D staff numbers pretty much as a trade secret.He's right, the only people they really dumped at the Alias office in Toronto were Administration and Support which Autodesk already has plenty of. The development staff stayed pretty much as it was before the acquisition.

You should try talking to people at Siggraph. Most are pretty open to talking about these things.

jude3d
08-21-2007, 01:21 PM
yeah you are right the .5 version always have major new features but now with this new 2008 name what about all that. I know alias team is on the way to give us in the next release some new features , sorry for my history of maya I'm not really good at it, I didn't remember exactly the time between each version but I though it was much more than 10 months, but anyway... this is not important. Just continue to trust into alias team.

beaker
08-21-2007, 02:14 PM
Most of the other Autodesk software has moved over to the year naming for the last couple years. Anyways, it's just a stupid name, who cares. I think I mentioned this before but it is as dumb as bitching about the icon or the splash screen(which people still do with every release). Does the name actually effect the quality of the software?

Venkman
08-21-2007, 02:24 PM
Most of the other Autodesk software has moved over to the year naming for the last couple years. Anyways, it's just a stupid name, who cares. I think I mentioned this before but it is as dumb as bitching about the icon or the splash screen(which people still do with every release). Does the name actually effect the quality of the software?

The things that have been affecting the quality of my work are not related to the name or splash screen. They're more problems with my own abilities. ;)

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