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Steve Green
08-06-2007, 09:00 PM
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/AQM06906082007-1.htm

I'm not going to comment on this release in this thread.

ThomasMahler
08-06-2007, 09:13 PM
At least post the highlights in this INFORMATION thread, cause they sound really cool to me:

-- New viewport technology and optimizations provide improved performance
with large and complex scenes consisting of tens of thousands of
objects. Artists can select thousands of objects and perform material
assignments up to 10 times faster. They can also transform objects up
to 60 times faster.**
-- 3ds Max 2008 offers a new Scene Explorer, which provides artists with a
hierarchical view of scene data, as well as fast scene analysis and
editing tools. This facilitates working with complex, object-heavy
scenes. It also includes a new Adaptive Degradation System, which
improves the software's interactivity by automatically simplifying the
scene display to meet a user-defined target frame rate.

New options for fast, artist-friendly modeling:
-- New modeling user interface options give artists a less menu-dependent
modeling experience.
-- 3ds Max 2008 offers conceptual design artists and modelers a more
streamlined modeling workflow, which enables them to focus more on the
creative process.

New Review toolset and mental ray workflow improvements:
-- The new Review toolset provides iterative rendering workflows with
interactive previewing of shadows, the 3ds Max sun/sky environment, and
Architectural and Design material settings.
-- 3ds Max 2008 also provides several mental ray workflow improvements,
including a new mental ray Sky Portal, which simplifies lighting indoor
scenes using outdoor lighting and supports HDRI-based lighting effects.

New tools and enhancements for complex workflows and pipelines:
-- The new integrated MAXScript ProEditor makes it easier to author
scripts that automate and customize 3ds Max.
-- Major improvements in file-linking and interoperability with other
Autodesk design solutions provide faster, more accurate importing of
data into 3ds Max. Furthermore, new features, such as Select Similar,
facilitate work with imported data inside of 3ds Max.

urgaffel
08-06-2007, 09:16 PM
What's with some companies and their reluctance to name programs version 10? Photoshop became CS, max becomes 2008...

At least it sounds like a good upgrade judging by the bullet points, will be fun to give it a spin once it's out. Looking forward to the preview videos too, I hope they do something similar to what they did with the videos for 9.

Steve Green
08-06-2007, 09:17 PM
OK, I said I wouldn't comment... but

I really, truly didn't think they're what I would term as highlights.

For me, disappointing doesn't even begin to cover it.

el_diablo
08-06-2007, 09:24 PM
I'll ask the same thing I ask with every new MAX version. Is the viewport navigation still modal? Meaning you must exit an operation to tumble the viewport.

ThomasMahler
08-06-2007, 09:25 PM
OK, I said I wouldn't comment... but

I really, truly didn't think they're what I would term as highlights.

For me, disappointing doesn't even begin to cover it.

So what would you have liked to see in this release? Let's wait a bit til we see videos of that stuff in action - certainly sounds like a good release to me. But what do I know, I'm not using Max at the moment.

el_diablo
08-06-2007, 09:28 PM
I guess everyone wants fluids in their apps now...

Tamis
08-06-2007, 09:33 PM
hm.. wats up with all these predevined lightning rig things and pre shaders ect...
is it me or dose max start to look more and more like a architect pre-vis program then a real CG app.

Steve Green
08-06-2007, 09:34 PM
I would have liked to have seen something done with the material editor instead of relying on third parties to implement a node-based mat-ed.

I would have liked to have seen some aspects of Ncloth/Nucleus ported.

I would have liked some concrete info on whether more of Max has been multithreaded (hair/fur and pflow for example)

Implementation of Polyboost/Orionflame like functionality at the editable poly level rather than as a script.

Honestly, the speedups would have to be phenomenal or there's some hidden gem in there for me to even consider renewing my sub. I'd rather put the money towards Krakatoa.

- Steve

rebb
08-06-2007, 09:39 PM
Nice :).
So this is Max 2008, where's Maya 2008 ? :D

erilaz
08-06-2007, 09:45 PM
New tools and enhancements for complex workflows and pipelines:
-- The new integrated MAXScript ProEditor makes it easier to author
scripts that automate and customize 3ds Max.


Whee! It's about bloody time! The current editor has little more to offer than notepad. :)

erilaz
08-06-2007, 09:51 PM
hm.. wats up with all these predevined lightning rig things and pre shaders ect...
is it me or dose max start to look more and more like a architect pre-vis program then a real CG app.

What do you mean? The last set of pre-defined shaders were awesome in max. More would be fantastic. Anything that makes setting up base lighting quicker is great also. It's not just confined to arch-vis.:shrug:

erilaz
08-06-2007, 09:54 PM
Implementation of Polyboost/Orionflame like functionality at the editable poly level rather than as a script.

- Steve

How do yu know they haven't done something like that with this:
New options for fast, artist-friendly modeling:
-- New modeling user interface options give artists a less menu-dependent
modeling experience.
-- 3ds Max 2008 offers conceptual design artists and modelers a more
streamlined modeling workflow, which enables them to focus more on the
creative process.


Honestly, I must say you're all jumping to conclusion very early. The release has some very broad statements of what the new tools involve. Why don't you wait for specifics?

Steve Green
08-06-2007, 10:03 PM
From that I read it's more UI changes than feature sets. I'm judging them by their past actions.

Take the chamfer tool in the PB for example - if they'd put some effort into it, it could have had weighting, profile splines, different methods of chamfering (they only needed to browse the subdiv thread in the Max forum to take a look at how people were modeling)

What they came up with was pretty much the least they could possibly have done - it doesn't even do new smoothing groups, so you have to smooth them manually. Hardly a fluid workflow.

erilaz
08-06-2007, 10:17 PM
I can understand your disappointment in there not being some stellar additions Steve, but I think your interpreting it wrong. As I said, thre's little point in speculating until the details are out. A "streamlined workflow" may mean the've addressed some of the modelling tools, not just a different interface.

swardson
08-06-2007, 10:18 PM
hum, max 2008... maya 2008... similiar enhacements... I think we are going to see a convergence soon. maybe 2009.

resrving judgement till I see official releases.

-Brad

Steve Green
08-06-2007, 10:24 PM
Honestly, my gut feeling is they've not added any modeling tools, or nothing of note.

I would love to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they don't have a great track record in that regard. There is occasionally the odd hidden gem, but I've got a bad feeling about this release.

erilaz
08-06-2007, 10:29 PM
Honestly, my gut feeling is they've not added any modeling tools, or nothing of note.

I would love to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they don't have a great track record in that regard. There is occasionally the odd hidden gem, but I've got a bad feeling about this release.

To be honest, I feel the impact won't be that large either, but i'm as ever hopefully optimistic. :) I get the feeling if they'd added something super-awesome they would have mentioned it.

I'm just stoked about the new maxscript editor. :D

Steve Green
08-06-2007, 10:32 PM
Yeah, I just would like to see something for the more arty types, rather than the worthy but dull scene explorers/maxscript editors/vault etc.

They just seemed to have sucked the fun out of 3D IMHO.

- Steve

cresshead
08-06-2007, 10:39 PM
this sounds interesting mind ya:-

Review
This powerful new toolset gives you immediate feedback on various render settings, enabling you to iterate rapidly. This means you can now quickly hone in on your desired look without waiting for a software render—perfect for over-the-shoulder client/boss feedback sessions and other iterative workflows. Based on the latest game engine technology, Review delivers interactive viewport previews of shadows (including self-shadowing and up to 64 lights simultaneously), the 3ds Max sun/sky system, and mental ray® Architectural and Design material settings.

not exactly Fprime by the sounds of it but more a game shader/viewport thing...

fez
08-06-2007, 10:42 PM
Lame. Lame. Lame. The demo vids better be mindblowingly kickass.

I think The Emporer said it best: Autodesk will suffer for their lack of vision :).

Grim Beefer
08-06-2007, 11:12 PM
Yeah, I just would like to see something for the more arty types, rather than the worthy but dull scene explorers/maxscript editors/vault etc.

They just seemed to have sucked the fun out of 3D IMHO.

- Steve

I couldn't agree more. That's why I was hoping they would port some of that Nucleus stuff over our way. That actually looks fun to use, in addition to being powerful. Maybe they bought Mudbox to try and balance it out some.

aaraaf
08-06-2007, 11:18 PM
Self shadowing is interesting when you're working... I really like it in ZBrush3, but it also can get dark where you don't want it when you're modeling, but I guess that's why you can toggle it :) .

Does help to get dimensions, though. Quite a lot. Nice to see the expensive software catching up to what's just expected of gaming consoles.

erilaz
08-06-2007, 11:31 PM
The autodesk 3dsmax page is slowly being updated with more detailed features:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7658360
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=8108755

Steve Green
08-06-2007, 11:47 PM
Sorry,

it's not getting any more exciting for me.

The highlights is just a repeat of the brochure, and I can't see much expansion on that in the detailed features.

Even if the acceleration is as much as they're saying, I still don't think that justifies the frankly anorexic new features.

You'd think they would have videos of the speedups ready to show when the embargo is lifted on the release details.

Szos
08-06-2007, 11:51 PM
The original press release was posted on a non-technical business site, so I HOPE that is why this new version seems rather lame... I am hoping that that was just a quick overview for the uninformed masses. I really HOPE (but won't hold my breathe) that some more advanced features/tools/updates will be posted on 3D specific sites.

However I am a realist when it comes to any software coming out of AutoDesk - they will do the absolute minimum to just barely scrape by as a new release, and then make everyone think that the next release will be the "big one". :rolleyes:

I think it should be quite clear that development for Max and Maya are going to slow to a crawl as development for a 'unified' 3D program is going on. AutoDesk spent a lot of money buying up Maya - money that could possibly have been used for R&D to improve its software, instead it was used to reduce competition within the industry, and this slowing of 3D development is a result.

I am sure there are a couple of cool new features, but also quite a few missing updates that are LOOOOOONG overdue. :cough: Material Editor :cough:

Steve Green
08-06-2007, 11:58 PM
The official release is no different.

There may be a slightly more comprehensive one which breaks down the details of the release, but it's not going to have "Oh yeah, and NCloth - we forgot that".

The only upside I can think is the possibility that I might finally be telling Autodesk to stuff their subscription up their arse.

rs3dcg
08-07-2007, 12:00 AM
The mr Preview looked nice, with Shadow and mr Daylight support,
even anisotropic highlights could be shown in viewport ...

The viewport caching is *again* only for static meshes, but the demonstrator
said, that OpenGL handles animations better ... so this as a sidenote from the
press conference.

Best from San Diego, Rob :)

a13xr3d
08-07-2007, 12:06 AM
Autodesk, do us ALL a favor and stop making EVERYONE rely on 3rd party plugins. It's a shame. I started 3d using 3ds, since release 7. Ever since then I've never seen any improvements that are completely mindblowing. Thus the reason I've completely switched to XSI, Maya (still sticking to it for animation), and stuff like Zbrush. If 3ds didn't have good plugins made for it, then it would've been dead and burried years ago.

Seriously, a lowsy excuse for a release.

Kabab
08-07-2007, 12:22 AM
AutoDesk spent a lot of money buying up Maya - money that could possibly have been used for R&D to improve its software, instead it was used to reduce competition within the industry, and this slowing of 3D development is a result.
Autodesk did not buy Maya they bought Alias and a big reason for this was to get their hands on all the large Automotive accounts and seperate themselves in the consumer design market space...

Maya was just a nice value add.

Eagleizer
08-07-2007, 12:25 AM
Autodesk, do us ALL a favor and stop making EVERYONE rely on 3rd party plugins. It's a shame. I started 3d using 3ds, since release 7. Ever since then I've never seen any improvements that are completely mindblowing. Thus the reason I've completely switched to XSI, Maya (still sticking to it for animation), and stuff like Zbrush. If 3ds didn't have good plugins made for it, then it would've been dead and burried years ago.

Seriously, a lowsy excuse for a release.

I`ve used MAX since version 3, and I have to agree about the plugins.
Now it`s a problem that the plugins doesn`t keep up with 64bit versions...

fez
08-07-2007, 12:59 AM
The viewport caching is *again* only for static meshes, but the demonstrator said, that OpenGL handles animations better ... so this as a sidenote from the
press conference.

Thanks for the report, Rob.

If that static mesh limitation is true then Autodesk has officially lost my money. They clearly have no idea what we need or want. Is animating or modeling a base mesh with turbosmooth on top of the stack really not any faster?

I am not a happy man. XSI essentials is 1000 dollars off until early Sept. I will almost certainly be migrating.

erilaz
08-07-2007, 01:09 AM
I really wish companies would not have links to "feature demos" on their site, if they don't have the feature demos there yet!:sad:

Mic_Ma
08-07-2007, 01:14 AM
Actually, I welcome this release. Last year I switched from max to XSI, and never looked back. What a revelation!

But with this release it seems they really want to clean up the whole app and make it flow better. The new explorer and modifier organisation, the integrated hair, more global animation tools, improved sdk, etc. All this points to a better software that can be used more creatively. I'd rather have this than another bunch of pointless features stuffed into the mess it used to be.

Well, let's wait and see.

Tirido
08-07-2007, 02:01 AM
More info: http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/blog/5/blogpost/5156/

our beta customers were actually shocked at how much faster 3ds Max is than products with supposedly advanced "gigagigglepolygon" features (damn, we forgot to give our improvements a super-cool name, now, no one will know what we've achieved).
:)

There was a rumour about Cuda. But they didn't mention that on the list, maybe next time. I hope they release features videos soon.

angel
08-07-2007, 02:25 AM
Pivot Overrides
Temporary pivot overrides can now be created in order to simplify the rotating of objects without affecting the original pivot. This helps modelers quickly pick arbitrary points around which to rotate.

Sub-object Previewing
The ability to preview sub-objects streamlines the modeling workflow: not only does it enable users to preview and select sub-objects in one fluid motion, it also gives them a way to switch between sub-object modes in the viewport.

Constrain to Normal
This new operation allows the user to transform sub-object geometry along the normals of selections: the result is a localized geometry push and pull operation.

Expanded Chamfer
A new setting has been added that allows modelers to indicate the number of edges their chamfer operation will result in.

These are huge in my book. The guys at work won't have to hear my constant bitching about this anymore... they are all celebrating right now :)

Eugenio
08-07-2007, 02:33 AM
Up to now I couldn't confirm if Max 2008 has mental ray 3.6 as Maya 2008...It would be ridiculous if not, but...Anyway I don't know what are the advantages of the MR 3.6 at all...

Regards,

Jr.

batbat
08-07-2007, 05:24 AM
Ah, finally it comes without any surprise just like some rumors previously claimed, however, I personally don't care about something "revolutionary" just because stability, performance and workflow are even much more important in real production environment, which should explain why the new features of this release focuse more on these parts rather than other stuff due to the fact that there're really many max guys who are suffering from low-performance, instability and relatively chaotic workflow in max. Of course I still hope there'll be more powerful features can be integrated such as PF upgrades or more advanced dynamic system but I wonder if Autodesk will make these high-end stuff for max because it's not the main target market for max and they have Maya to concentrate on high-end production. Anyway, hope I can get this release soon and make some tests to see if it's a worthy upgrade.

AJ
08-07-2007, 12:09 PM
I'll ask the same thing I ask with every new MAX version. Is the viewport navigation still modal? Meaning you must exit an operation to tumble the viewport.
Alt+Middle-Mouse Button.

As for the rest, I'm waiting for the videos before I can decipher the actual use of the new features.

el_diablo
08-07-2007, 12:11 PM
Alt+Middle-Mouse Button.

As for the rest, I'm waiting for the videos before I can decipher the actual use of the new features.

Does this mean you can cut an edge all around a cube without restarting the operation?

AJ
08-07-2007, 12:15 PM
Does this mean you can cut an edge all around a cube without restarting the operation?
Ah I see...

It doesn't, but you can just continue the cut by clicking on your last point...

psychoo
08-07-2007, 12:38 PM
"Ah I see...

It doesn't, but you can just continue the cut by clicking on your last point..."

Or continue requesting the feature to be able to navigate viewport without intertrupting current operation. This is my dream. Navigate the viewport, while drawing splines.

AJ
08-07-2007, 01:01 PM
Navigate the viewport, while drawing splines.
You could press 'i'...

*runs away*

cresshead
08-07-2007, 01:08 PM
or zoom out abit...
or most likely rough out your spline then edit it...it's not like it's a one shot deal is it?

SergioSantos
08-07-2007, 02:04 PM
VIDEOS!!! pleeeeeease...


mmm... it looks like a good update, but... there are still a lot of things to add.
Visual material editor (despite I'm quite happy with nodejoe)
include some scripts like polyboost, freehand tools/advanced painter
XYZshwrinkwrapper for max!
UI improvements, I don't know if this guys have seen how you can change the UI of Bodypaint/Cinema 4d, even the navigation keys.
Detachable windows
Unify Maya/Max/Motion Builder/Combustion
Sculpting tools (hope they integrate mudbox now)
3D Painting tools... I'd love to have Bodypaint 3D inside Max

well... I guess I have to wait for all these features... or use 5 different app with plugins and scripts to complete all of them...

Gadzooks
08-07-2007, 03:38 PM
I really wish companies would not have links to "feature demos" on their site, if they don't have the feature demos there yet!

True That!

soulburn3d
08-07-2007, 05:32 PM
The new SceneExplorer sounds cool, I wonder if it can access all the parameters that, say, the maya attribute spreadsheet can. If so, that will be uber useful.

> Multiple UV Unwrap
> Users can now perform an Unwrap operation on the UVs of multiple objects
> simultaneously. This makes it significantly easier to organize the mapping of multiple
> objects into one texture – e.g., in the case of a car with various parts in it, all the
> parts can be quickly made part of the same map.

I know there was a script to do this before, but this is a super useful feature, and I;'m glad it's being included in the base package.

The pivot overrides may be useful.

- Neil

cresshead
08-07-2007, 05:41 PM
pivot point over rides..can you believe it's taken 10 versions to get that feature?

lightwave...set action center to 'mouse'....whereever you place your mouse is the pivot point or center of an action like stretch, rotate etc...doh!..too easy!..been there for YEARS!

still lightwave's missing a bunch of stuff too so i'll shut up!

Steve Green
08-07-2007, 05:44 PM
I still wish they'd do more with the unwrapper - implementing some aspects of Turbounwrap like the easy alignment of verts for example.

It's also sorely lacking any method of organising UVs, like being able to group them together or name them. Since people often offset the UVs to outside 1 for ZB/Mudbox work, it would be useful to have more organisational tools along these lines.

fez
08-07-2007, 05:47 PM
The pivot overrides may be useful.

- Neil

And it sounds like Sticky Keys might have made it in there as well , which will be a nice workflow boost.

I really would be fine with this release if the performance explosion was not limited to static meshes. It actually enrages me that I will have to wait at least another year for fast deforming meshes and subds in Max. It boggles my mind that this was not made a priority and that Autodesk is bragging about performance without mentioning this absolutely vital limitation.

In any case, hopefully the developers will take the stuff that makes mudbox subds so speedy and port it to Max and Maya.

But then again, given that nothing cool from Maya or Motionbuilder seems to have made it into Max, why should we expect any Mudbox tech to be ported?

soulburn3d
08-07-2007, 06:53 PM
I still wish they'd do more with the unwrapper - implementing some aspects of Turbounwrap like the easy alignment of verts for example.

It's also sorely lacking any method of organising UVs, like being able to group them together or name them. Since people often offset the UVs to outside 1 for ZB/Mudbox work, it would be useful to have more organisational tools along these lines.

Ya, those features would be nice. I wrote a script called uVPlacer to help me with some of that stuff (like uv aligning), but I'd always prefer to have the functionality built in.

- Neil

trthing
08-07-2007, 07:49 PM
Up to now I couldn't confirm if Max 2008 has mental ray 3.6 as Maya 2008...It would be ridiculous if not, but...Anyway I don't know what are the advantages of the MR 3.6 at all...

Regards,

Jr.

Now that is a good question. Anyone?

jng
08-08-2007, 12:51 AM
NO more competition from Maya. The own it too. What's left is catering to production companies. Individuals must resort to plug-ins which is where you'll get great creative innovation. I cancelled my subscription a few months ago. I'm just going to buy plug-ins I need for work I want to do. If they come back with a great product in 2009 then maybe.

whowhatwhenwherewhyhow
08-08-2007, 06:06 PM
Polygon Modeling Tools

A complete set of creation and editing tools includes create, collapse, attach, bridge, flip, hinge from edge, turn, cut, split, slice, quick slice, wedge, bevel, extrude, chamfer vertex, extrude along a curve, mirror, edge loop, and edge ring tools.


Sorry for the noob question, but is "wedge" new? Not ringing any bells here.

Steve Green
08-08-2007, 06:38 PM
Seems to be - not sure what it does precisely though.

parallax
08-08-2007, 08:10 PM
How about cutting the price by 50%. THATS what needs to be done overhere. Paying 200% of the US price for an exact copy is ridiculous.

opus13
08-08-2007, 08:28 PM
How about cutting the price by 50%. THATS what needs to be done overhere. Paying 200% of the US price for an exact copy is ridiculous.

Hmm. What's the cost of doing business in a small coutry like the netherlands to begin with? Although it is part of the EU, each country still has its own sets of rules and hoops to jump through for for businesses. Yeah, it's the same product, but really, how many copies of max would they really expect to sell in a country of 16 million? The Netherlands isn't exactly known as being a 3d production powerhouse. There's 10 million in Los Angeles alone, and there are arguably most customers per sqaure foot.

It's going to take more resources do do busines there... of course there is going to be a price disparity.

same goes for all the countries of the EU. Just because there is a united currency, doesnt mean there is a united business code.

alvin-cgi
08-08-2007, 10:44 PM
price... well, what about let user freely re-sale the max/maya license if they dont need it anymore... you know like xsi, c4d, lw...:rolleyes:

parallax
08-09-2007, 07:19 AM
Hmm. What's the cost of doing business in a small coutry like the netherlands to begin with? Although it is part of the EU, each country still has its own sets of rules and hoops to jump through for for businesses. Yeah, it's the same product, but really, how many copies of max would they really expect to sell in a country of 16 million? The Netherlands isn't exactly known as being a 3d production powerhouse. There's 10 million in Los Angeles alone, and there are arguably most customers per sqaure foot.

It's going to take more resources do do busines there... of course there is going to be a price disparity.

same goes for all the countries of the EU. Just because there is a united currency, doesnt mean there is a united business code.

Yeah, that's the same old excuse that Adobe is using. Except, Adobe actually offers a NL language version. It has already been stated that the main reason for overpricing software in the EU, is that we perceive software as having more value, and are thus willing to pay more for it (read: accept the extortionate pricing schemes)
A doubling of prices on account of the cost of doing business overhere is a load of BS, and they know it. Why do you keep believing this crap? I get the exact same copy as you do, and even adobe acknowledges that 200% might be a bit strong for some versioned piece of software.

parallax
08-09-2007, 07:34 AM
Misanthrope, dude, are talking crossforum overhere? Didn't see your name here.

soulburn3d
08-09-2007, 02:42 PM
Yeah, that's the same old excuse that Adobe is using. Except, Adobe actually offers a NL language version. It has already been stated that the main reason for overpricing software in the EU, is that we perceive software as having more value, and are thus willing to pay more for it (read: accept the extortionate pricing schemes)
A doubling of prices on account of the cost of doing business overhere is a load of BS, and they know it. Why do you keep believing this crap? I get the exact same copy as you do, and even adobe acknowledges that 200% might be a bit strong for some versioned piece of software.

I think software pricing should be completely based on the local cost of living :) So if you live in a very cheap place to live, the price of buying the software should go up. That way, since I live in San Francisco, 3dsmax should only cost us about $10 a copy, to compensate for all the money we spend on rent and mortgages. :D

- Neil

opus13
08-09-2007, 04:46 PM
Misanthrope, dude, are talking crossforum overhere? Didn't see your name here. yep. i used to have the same ID all over, but since that whole mograph hackery bu!!sh!t, my screen name changed somehow.

parallax
08-09-2007, 05:14 PM
I think software pricing should be completely based on the local cost of living :) So if you live in a very cheap place to live, the price of buying the software should go up. That way, since I live in San Francisco, 3dsmax should only cost us about $10 a copy, to compensate for all the money we spend on rent and mortgages. :D

- Neil

Wow, that's a good idea. That would mean Autodesk would essentially PAY me to use their software, just the way it should be.

WilliamMAX
08-09-2007, 05:17 PM
Videos of maya 2008 and max 2008

http://www.retrostylegames.com/temp/vids/

artmann
08-10-2007, 08:20 PM
How about cutting the price by 50%. THATS what needs to be done overhere. Paying 200% of the US price for an exact copy is ridiculous.

That´s why we all abandoned the ship already. In Sweden, Max costs 50 000 SEK. That´s actually more then 6000 US$. Draw your own conclusions.

Self-Designer
08-11-2007, 02:25 PM
I guess everyone wants fluids in their apps now...

A wet dream you say, ah?

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