Beginners Environment Art Questions? Ask Them Here

[Ramseus]

I don't know if you're familiar with BF2's painful environmental texturing system with using 4 texture layers (a color base, a greyscale detail map on multiply, a dirt layer on multiply, and a crack layer on alpha transparency, each possibly having it's own normal map), but I'm just wondering if anyone else in the world uses layered textures so heavily. My experience with BF2 environment art kinda drove me away from environments (I don't care how much texture memory it saves, it's simply painful).

[Psixos]

Any tips on breaking geometry up for repeating textures?

[ArYeS]

Hey, i'm glad someone is willing to help around here by himself.

I got one question, I'm used to props modelling (weapons, cars,etc.), but I just don't know how to start good enviroment modeling.. whats first?

[LaughingBun]

i think the most effective thing you can do to become an enviroment artist or game artist in general, is to pick up one of the free level editors; unreal, sandbox, hammer. Start using the level editor and trying to make your own levels. I recomend unreal for multiple reasons, but the most notable is that its really easy to snoop around the games content so you can see exactly what it takes to build a level, and a game as a whole.

[itsallgoode9]

Hey, i'm glad someone is willing to help around here by himself.

I got one question, I'm used to props modelling (weapons, cars,etc.), but I just don't know how to start good enviroment modeling.. whats first?


I think the short answer to your question is just go and do it. You're just got to get in there, start modeling, get your hands dirty and learn as you go. Probably a good starting point for this is to find and image that you find interesting...maybe an alley way, factory interior or whatever it is you find interesting, and just try to recreate a simialr scene using your image as reference.

Reference is the most important thing to keep in mind. Don't do anything from memory or it'll most likely turn out generic looking, find a reference image to at least base somthing off of.

As far as technique, modeling environments is the same as modeling anything else...it's just standard modeling. Hopefully that helps a little bit....your question was a bit broad so I wasn't able to pinoint any specifics really.

[itsallgoode9]

I don't know if you're familiar with BF2's painful environmental texturing system with using 4 texture layers (a color base, a greyscale detail map on multiply, a dirt layer on multiply, and a crack layer on alpha transparency, each possibly having it's own normal map), but I'm just wondering if anyone else in the world uses layered textures so heavily. My experience with BF2 environment art kinda drove me away from environments (I don't care how much texture memory it saves, it's simply painful).

Hey, unfortunatly i don't know the answer to this one, I do more content creation rather than level design...maybe somebody else knows this one? do you LaughingBun?

[LaughingBun]

i have never used the battlefield editor, But i can tell you that alot of games have and insane amount of textures and paramaters just to make one material. ive been playing in the Roboblitz editor and i can tell you that a string of 20+ textures/parameters are not uncommon for making good looking materials. Game engines arnt always the most fun thing to learn because they are so complex and only really make sense to the people who worked on the engine. But as they become more user-friendly there is also more that needs to be learned.

[HellBoy]

I have a rather silly question itsallgoode9.

Why do we need to put our levels/environments in a editor (i.e. Unreal, Hammer ect)? If its for seeing the level in real time, why can't we just grab a shot of max's viewport using DirectX

[NeoNautica]

Hellboy: Putting levels in a editor shows a better understanding of the game art pipeline. Editor's lighting and material tools are all a bit different and can require the mesh to be modeled differently to get them to look good. Most editors have performance tools that can help you determine if your level will actually run in a game or if it will lag/chug. Itsallgoode9 might have some different or more information to provide as well...

[Vilperi]

Here's one silly thing that I always wonder about game environments: when is it smarter to model something as solid mesh, and when is it smarter to model things as seperate objects? For example, if I model a street that has lamp posts, should I model the posts as seperate objects or somehow extrude them out of the street? I guess the right way is to make them seperate objects, right?

What about buildings along the street? Which way: seperate objects or attached to the street mesh? These silly questions really haunt my dreams. Please enlighten me.

Thanks for this thread itsallgoode9!

[pruvaloo]

Just to throw my tuppence into the ring (and I'm not saying this is right or wrong, simply that this is my opinion :))

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about getting stuff into a game engine. Ok I agree it does show you understand and are capable of making models and textures that can be put into an engine, but at the same time you have to remember that different games companies use different engines, so personally I'd just concentrate on getting a kick-ass looking portfolio.

When companies look to hire I think this is the most important factor, because they will have to teach you how to use whatever engine they are using for the project you are working on. It's a bit like saying 'oh use maya instead of max'. At the end of the day if you are talented enough to impress a company they will take the time to teach you the tools they use.

Obviously if you are going more for a level design postition, then it would be important to show some levels that you made, and be able to show that they run correctly and smoothly etc in an actual game engine, but if you are just wanting to be a modeler, then I would stick with max screengrabs and spend the time you would take learning how to get your stuff into an engine on making more models :)

That's just my personal feeling on the matter though.

[itsallgoode9]

Here's one silly thing that I always wonder about game environments: when is it smarter to model something as solid mesh, and when is it smarter to model things as seperate objects? For example, if I model a street that has lamp posts, should I model the posts as seperate objects or somehow extrude them out of the street? I guess the right way is to make them seperate objects, right?

What about buildings along the street? Which way: seperate objects or attached to the street mesh? These silly questions really haunt my dreams. Please enlighten me.

Thanks for this thread itsallgoode9!

I can't speak for every workflow/editor but in using Unreal3 it doesn't really make a difference from a technical standpoint. For example, you could model the lamp posts directly into the street if you really wanted, but technique-wise, that more than likely isn't the best way to go about it.

For the most part you just build each object as its own piece... not everything needs to be connected.

For example, you are making a building...you will make the building and for the most part combine everything from the building structure into one object. (just combine, it doesn't need to physically be extrude/welded as a solid object) props such as table chair etc will likely be thier own sepearte pieces that are placed inside the building in the level editor.

There are a couple different things to take into consideration when thinking about a building.

1. Objects that have physics: I most of today's games most objects have physics of some sort applied to the (example: if you throw a gernade in a room with tables and chairs they will more than likely get knocked over, thrown across the room etc). These objects obviously must be thier own piece since they need to be flung around the room. it they were built into to the room they obviously wouldn't be able to do that.

2. Depending on the workflow the interiors of the bulidings may be separate from the exterior. this helps save on memory because it won't have to render the interior of the building if it isn't being seen. whereas if it were attatched to the exterior it would be rendered all the time, even when you couldn't see the inside..

[itsallgoode9]

I have a rather silly question itsallgoode9.

Why do we need to put our levels/environments in a editor (i.e. Unreal, Hammer ect)? If its for seeing the level in real time, why can't we just grab a shot of max's viewport using DirectX

what exactlly are you asking with this question...are you just wanting to know the purpose of an editor in general? or have you been asked to place your stuff in the editor for a job application or somthing similar?

[RO]

Nice thread. ill also put myself for questions or general advice.



Imo if your going to be even a environment artist you should have experience with importing stuff into level editors. My experience is only with the unreal engines. ( not the newest one but soon ill get into it )

I find that it is important to know how to build objects that can be reused in many different situations. Some environment artists might be great modelers but have no clue on how it will work in the real environment. That is where the term modular comes in. Objects for games have to be made to be modular. Of course there are pieces that are special in which you will only see a few or even just one in the game. But in general most models in games are meant to work in many different situations. And this is where environment artist need to experience. In the unreal engines at least instancing models helps greatly.

[itsallgoode9]

that's very true RO, much of the stuff we're making in Frontlines is modular. The level of modularity varies quite a bit also.

Some of our objects were made modular in the sense that the artist build a set of beams, walls, colums, etc to pull from when he is modeling a set of objects. After those get built the artist can just basically play "building blocks" to build multiple structures that feel similar, yet have variation to them....solely to help speed the modeler up and keep draw calls low. There are also instances where we will just build those pieces and hand them off to the level designers and let the designers build things out of those pieces in the editor.

[Matroskin]

yeah, I strongly agree with itsallgoode9 and RO - instancing is extremely important. One more important thing to add here it is that snapping to grid is vital for huge blocks' instancing in order to avoid gaps and one block glitch through another (I could still see that "bug" even in some AAA titles like Call of Duty, Medal of Honor etc).

After all as far as I am concerned, UE clips static meshes that r hiden behind solid level geometry by object and not by polygon. That is to say that if all street lights are separate objects, those that will be behind some wall will not render, but if they r all merged together into a huge mesh, they will be rendered in full as soon at least one polygon of one street light will appear form behind any visual obstacle.

What concerns necessity of using game level editors vs your 3d app of choice, I would say that it depends a lot from specific case.

I do levels for DS titles, and the level building pipeline that I use lets me do EVERYTHING in max. I create actual meshes, blocks of levels, triggers, colisions, cut-scene cameras, place objects and enemies, add textures, do hierarchies etc. in max only. I even create animations in max; moreover, most often I do them directly in the level. I also work on pre-production of a Wii title, and as I can see, I will do most of environment job in max again.

What concerns high-end content creation, in such a case game editors are probably most frequently used. But still, some levels for UT 2K4 were just a huge set of static meshes (created in external 3d app) and what was done in editor was just a substracted cube (basicly, just an empty giant room) to plece meshes into it and make the level run.

pruvaloo says true. After all, level creation is mostly about creating nice stuff in some 3d app and then place it into the level that may be basicly just a set of simple spaces prepared for all those fancy meshes. If you can do good stuff in ur 3d app and texture them nicely (texture layer principle is very similar anyways) you got what it takes.

Ramseus, modern game development technologies force to use what they offer, e.g. normal maps, detail textures, speculars etc. If you find BF editor not very artist-friendly, you can just create simpler materials. After all, aesthetical look of the actual texture image (diffuse) to me is the most important. If u can do just good diffuse (and normal map where necessary) it may be enough to show that u got a taste.

[Vilperi]

Ok thanks Justin! That cleared things a lot.

Here's another question: how are horizon and sky made in outdoor environments? Giant hemisphere with proper texture?

[GLandolina]

Ok thanks Justin! That cleared things a lot.

Here's another question: how are horizon and sky made in outdoor environments? Giant hemisphere with proper texture?

generally its a giant sphere with blue mapped to it, then the clouds are planes scattered around above you. etc

[renaissance01]

Hey, firstly thankyou very much for offering your help and advice. I'm attempting to break into the games industry as a modeller/texturer and have a few questions :)

1. On a reel, is it good to show high detailed pre rendered environments/scenes as well as real time renders ?

2. Would it be helpful to include organic and inorganic models such as props as well as say a character or should i stick to one area...such as environment modelling?

3. Also...i think this is a bit irrelevant but i was just wondering. I'm currently working as a freelance VFX Artist for a film studio...would a games studio value this experience or is it strictly games experience that's desired ?

I hope i haven't asked too much. Once again thankyou in advance for offering your help. I appreciate it :)

Cheers.

Alex.

[salman-fas]

Hello

Actually i need opinion. I have been trying to get into industry as a character artist/3d artist. But haven't been able to find me a job, not even an entry level prop artist job.
so now I am a little confused,

1. Should I work on a new character reel with some normal mapped characters as my old reel doesn't have any normal mapped characters.(i am sure i should improve the quality as well).

2. Should I start on environments as to me it seems like there are more environmental artist's jobs than character artist. Also some of them don't require prior experience. I have been learning Hammer editor too.
So I am stuck in both of these options. I can't decide what to do.
Please help me out what should I do to be in industry quickly(its tough:cry: )
Thanks

[Vilperi]

Ok more questions coming up. I have a whole bunch of them:)

If I model a flat wall that doesn't have any extrusions or holes, can I make it just one huge polygon, no matter how big the wall is? Or is it smarter to brake it down to smaller pieces?

I'm asking this from the point of view of texturing. If I have a wall that consists of only one big polygon then I have to make one huge texture(that isn't very reusable) or repeat one smaller texture that doesn't look very good.

Hmmm...I'm not sure that I'm making any point here. I guess my question is that if I want to vary textures to brake down repetitiveness, does it mean that I need to model multiple elements that has different textures or can I insert different texturemaps on one polygon?

Hope you understand what I mean.

[itsallgoode9]

Hey, firstly thankyou very much for offering your help and advice. I'm attempting to break into the games industry as a modeller/texturer and have a few questions :)

1. On a reel, is it good to show high detailed pre rendered environments/scenes as well as real time renders ?

2. Would it be helpful to include organic and inorganic models such as props as well as say a character or should i stick to one area...such as environment modelling?

3. Also...i think this is a bit irrelevant but i was just wondering. I'm currently working as a freelance VFX Artist for a film studio...would a games studio value this experience or is it strictly games experience that's desired ?

I hope i haven't asked too much. Once again thankyou in advance for offering your help. I appreciate it :)

Cheers.

Alex.

Answer to this quiestion is obviously just my personal opinion:

1.I think to some extent it can be....i guess it depends on the quality and design of them. Obviously, the first priority would be to have plenty of game-quality models, but if you have pre-rendered stuff that shows off insane amount of detail it really can show that you have a good eye, if that makes sense.
So, in the end, i'd say priority 1 is focusing on game quality models but if you are really good at prerendered stuff put some of those in there but don't make them your focus. if they aren't stellar quality, i'd leave them out.

2. I feel the same way about this as in my first post. If you have some really good ones, sure, but if they aren't really good, leave them out. And don't make them your focus. Props are plenty fine, but it's probalby not gonna wow anybody.
I'd say stick to one area mostly.

3. It will definitly help. It won't be viewed as highly as a position in an actual game studio probably, but it does show that you ahve experience working on a team, you can meet deadlines, and you know how the working world actually works.

Hope those help, once again, all just my personal opinions on the matter.

[BadBruzer]

I do have a few questions I am fairly new modelling I have in the past textured things on max and made a few simple map models but I am going to make it a focus and practice I hope to do a environment so I got a few questions before I can really start.

1.) Now for walls do you guys create a repeating texture? If so how do you cut up the geometry so that it will repeat without noticable size difference?

2.) I have contemplated making a small project using hl2 hammer tool to just show as a portfolio peice now should I spend my time trying to make a project or just focus on models and maybe a few modeled environments? I know a similar question was asked about importing but I didn't know if working with like triggers helps out.

3.) I have always wondered about glass how do you guys handle that in a scene? Is it a two sided plane? or is that even possible?

4.) One more question which has always kinda bothered me I know it has to do with smooth groups but whenever i do a model I always get these wierd shadows on the model because its slightly at a angle but how do you get the absolutely clean look like http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/770/light1yy9.jpg that for example no wierd shadows from the shader.

Thats all for now like I said I am learning but having a fun time doing it hopefully after much practice I got a chance to make it as a 3d artist.

[itsallgoode9]

Hello

Actually i need opinion. I have been trying to get into industry as a character artist/3d artist. But haven't been able to find me a job, not even an entry level prop artist job.
so now I am a little confused,

1. Should I work on a new character reel with some normal mapped characters as my old reel doesn't have any normal mapped characters.(i am sure i should improve the quality as well).

2. Should I start on environments as to me it seems like there are more environmental artist's jobs than character artist. Also some of them don't require prior experience. I have been learning Hammer editor too.
So I am stuck in both of these options. I can't decide what to do.
Please help me out what should I do to be in industry quickly(its tough:cry: )
Thanks

1. I would definitly say yes to this. From a "non-character artist" point of view, right now your character models dont relaly seem to fit in to any one game type. They aren't really high poly enough to be "next gen" yet seem too complicated if they were for handhelds. Find some character models from games and ask yourself "why doesn't mine look as good as thiers?" and be honest with yourself...that'll help alot if you do diret comparison.

2. That's something really only you can answer...if you like doing environments instead of characters, then do that, if not stick with characters. Don't stick with waht you think is easier, stick with what you like.

[GLandolina]

Ok more questions coming up. I have a whole bunch of them:)
If I model a flat wall that doesn't have any extrusions or holes, can I make it just one huge polygon, no matter how big the wall is? Or is it smarter to brake it down to smaller pieces?

Smarter to brake into smaller bits, many engines light using verts so more = better shadows.

I'm asking this from the point of view of texturing. If I have a wall that consists of only one big polygon then I have to make one huge texture(that isn't very reusable) or repeat one smaller texture that doesn't look very good.

You can layer textures, many engines support this.
eg. in unreal you can have a really basic and undetailed colour map, then put a really small but tiling detail map over it, etc.

Hmmm...I'm not sure that I'm making any point here. I guess my question is that if I want to vary textures to brake down repetitiveness, does it mean that I need to model multiple elements that has different textures or can I insert different texturemaps on one polygon?

Hope you understand what I mean.
you could use decals too.

[itsallgoode9]

Ok more questions coming up. I have a whole bunch of them:)

If I model a flat wall that doesn't have any extrusions or holes, can I make it just one huge polygon, no matter how big the wall is? Or is it smarter to brake it down to smaller pieces?

I'm asking this from the point of view of texturing. If I have a wall that consists of only one big polygon then I have to make one huge texture(that isn't very reusable) or repeat one smaller texture that doesn't look very good.

Hmmm...I'm not sure that I'm making any point here. I guess my question is that if I want to vary textures to brake down repetitiveness, does it mean that I need to model multiple elements that has different textures or can I insert different texturemaps on one polygon?

Hope you understand what I mean.

GLandolina hit all those up pretty well. I will add, that the vert based lighting varies from engine to engine, so sometimes leaving one giant ass poly for wall is fine.

[itsallgoode9]

I do have a few questions I am fairly new modelling I have in the past textured things on max and made a few simple map models but I am going to make it a focus and practice I hope to do a environment so I got a few questions before I can really start.

1.) Now for walls do you guys create a repeating texture? If so how do you cut up the geometry so that it will repeat without noticable size difference?

2.) I have contemplated making a small project using hl2 hammer tool to just show as a portfolio peice now should I spend my time trying to make a project or just focus on models and maybe a few modeled environments? I know a similar question was asked about importing but I didn't know if working with like triggers helps out.

3.) I have always wondered about glass how do you guys handle that in a scene? Is it a two sided plane? or is that even possible?

4.) One more question which has always kinda bothered me I know it has to do with smooth groups but whenever i do a model I always get these wierd shadows on the model because its slightly at a angle but how do you get the absolutely clean look like http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/770/light1yy9.jpg that for example no wierd shadows from the shader.

Thats all for now like I said I am learning but having a fun time doing it hopefully after much practice I got a chance to make it as a 3d artist.


http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4889/exampleforcgtalkle5.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exampleforcgtalkle5.jpg)


1. For walls, we generally use 3 different textures...all based off of a single repeating texture.

Texture 1 is a repeating texture that tiles seemlesly both vertically and horizontally

Texture 2 is a texture whose top matches seemlesly with texture 1's bottom when put together. it is using texture 1 as a base. This texture tiles seemlessly only in horizontal direction

Texture 3 is a texture whose bottom matches seemlesly with texture 1's top when put together. it is using texture 1 as a base.This texture tiles seemlessly only in horizontal direction


In usage these are 3 separate 512 textures, i just have them in on image so you can see the seemless nature. Using texture 2 and 3 as Top and Bottom of the wall and texture 1 as the tiling center section, you can create walls as tall as you want which also have a decent amount of variation. I can show you an example from Maya if you need, just let me know.

2. I say it's nice to show that you know how to do that, but what is being looked at first is whether or not you ahve good work. So if you already have high quality work, go ahead and do show it in an engine. If your work isn't top notch, focus more on getting higher quality work.

3. Glass, i'm sure varies from engine to engine. We do it using 2 planes and an color and alpha map for transparency combined with a fresnel reflection shader made in Unreal. Sometimes it's just the alpha map without the reflection, depends on the siutuation.

4. no understanding what you're asking in this one.

:)

[Sursely]

4.) One more question which has always kinda bothered me I know it has to do with smooth groups but whenever i do a model I always get these wierd shadows on the model because its slightly at a angle but how do you get the absolutely clean look like http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/770/light1yy9.jpg that for example no wierd shadows from the shader.


It can have to do with smoothing groups, which you can search for a thread/tutorial here if you dont know much about those, but it might also have to do with how you are rendering. Here is a link to a good rendering tutorial that helped me a lot. I always wondered how to get those smooth shadows and "clay" look to my WIP renders.

---> http://www.3dnuts.com/tutorials/render_wip.shtml

Hope that helps

[BadBruzer]

Thanks that helps yea 4 I didn't word well but I got it figured out looking around what I wanted is making a clay render but I got it figured out. Thanks for you guys help.

[heavyness]

one pointer i would like to state that i don't think has been said before is to keep your meshes clean. don't have extra verts and or faces floating around in your mesh. some engines will use the vert data for collisions, and if there is a loan vert floating below the characters foot, shit going to screw up.


and yes, learn a level editor. i would go with Unreal or Hammer [they're both popular and have TONS of documentation online]. sure, you might need to learn a new editor when you get hired, but it shows you went out and learned something on your own. and like said before, just because a mesh looks good in your viewport, doesn't mean anything.

i've seen a lot of people come though CGTalk and get hired because they had a working level in one of the level editors.

[Vilperi]

and yes, learn a level editor.

Why?:) What's so great about level editors compared to normal 3d packages? I don't get it. Isn't polygons always polygons no matter what software you're using?

Why does game making have to be so darn difficult to understand!!?:scream:

[heavyness]

Why?:) What's so great about level editors compared to normal 3d packages? I don't get it. Isn't polygons always polygons no matter what software you're using?

Why does game making have to be so darn difficult to understand!!?:scream:

there isn't anything great about level editors... thats the point. finding all their little qwerks and tricking them to do things they can't is the skill studios are looking for.

anyone can make a human character walk around in a 3d app. doing the same thing in a level editor is an accomplishment.

sure, you don't need to learn one, but if you have the same skill set as the next guy, but he knows Unreal Editor, the studio is going to choose him.

look at it as another application under your belt.

[urgaffel]

2. Would it be helpful to include organic and inorganic models such as props as well as say a character or should i stick to one area...such as environment modelling?

IF you choose to do environment modeling as a career, you will be asked to do props such as trees (organic) and a gasoline pump (inorganic) and anything inbetween. If you are creating an environment for your portfolio, you will need something to put in that environment which is props, so you'll do it automatically if you choose that direction.

GLandolina hit all those up pretty well. I will add, that the vert based lighting varies from engine to engine, so sometimes leaving one giant ass poly for wall is fine.

I'd say it depends. Since vertex based lighting is based on vertices, if you have a ground plane that is one big polygon and you have a box sitting in the middle, the box won't cast any kind of shadow on the ground since there aren't any vertices there to catch the light/shadow so to speak. Then there's lighting based on pixelshaders and if you use that you don't have to think too hard about breaking up surfaces for the sake of lighting since pixelshader based lighting isn't usually dependent on vertices. This is something that differs from engine to engine, some use both.

Why?:) What's so great about level editors compared to normal 3d packages? I don't get it. Isn't polygons always polygons no matter what software you're using?

Why does game making have to be so darn difficult to understand!!?:scream:

A level editor is a lot more than just a normal 3d package. In Unreal you can play your level as you create it and see what needs fixing where. While you can see your stuff in realtime in a 3d package, it will very very VERY rarely match what you will actually see in game. Not to mention that you can adjust lighting, textures, decals, botanicals and more in a level editor faster than in a 3d package (this depends on the editor but you get what I mean I hope). So, to take an example from real life, I had to learn the level editor at a job I got and it turned out that I found a lot of small things that would make the level look better that I could fix a lot faster in the editor than if I was to save the scene in the editor, import into a 3d package, find the areas that needed fixing, do the fixes, export it, open it in the level editor and find the fixed areas and see if the fixes were good enough.

Then there's also the gameplay aspect and set dressing (placing objects in the world). You can set up triggers, lifts, ai and whatnot in a level editor. I'm not saying you can't do these tings in a 3d package, just that it's usually done in the level editor.

I don't know if you're familiar with BF2's painful environmental texturing system with using 4 texture layers (a color base, a greyscale detail map on multiply, a dirt layer on multiply, and a crack layer on alpha transparency, each possibly having it's own normal map), but I'm just wondering if anyone else in the world uses layered textures so heavily. My experience with BF2 environment art kinda drove me away from environments (I don't care how much texture memory it saves, it's simply painful).

Yes, most games these days use a layering system, some are more elegant than others but blending between textures and using decals is more or less standard these days since it gives you a lot more freedom when texturing environments. BF2s system sounds a bit ott with the multiply though... A few of the techniques I've seen so far is using two additional uv channels to overlay decals using the alphas, vertex blending between two different textures and then you have the BF2 system that you described :) Different companies will have different ways of doing it but hopefully they will all let you mix and match textures.


Sorry for the long post, I thought I'd throw my two pennies into the ring as well.

[Elmdorz]

I really appreciate this thread, and I have a few questions:

1)How do people make textures look photo real? I have tried to texture a few things based on photos and it still had a bad look to it. I also hear people say not to use photos for texturing but others say its a good idea. Does it all depend on what kind of game environment your making? For example if I wanted to make a level look photo real like lets say Gears of War or perhaps Def Jam Icon, would I use photos mainly? I understand painting textures is a good idea if your making a certain style to an environment but I still fail to see how one can make a photoreal texture strictly from painting and no other source.


2) Do all next gen game environments use bump maps at all, or did Normal Maps replace bump maps altogether?

3) My last question involves lighting and rendering. Some people I see use some sort of GI whenever they show their game environments. I thought this was a bad idea, because for one aren't you suppose to be making your own lighting the ole fashion way(you know spotlight here, spotlight there, tweak etc etc), and not just slapping on a plug in? Also when I present my environments for a portfolio, do I render my scenes or should I show my game environments in the viewpoint?


Thanks again for making this wonderful thread.

[Ghostscape]

I really appreciate this thread, and I have a few questions:

1)How do people make textures look photo real? I have tried to texture a few things based on photos and it still had a bad look to it. I also hear people say not to use photos for texturing but others say its a good idea. Does it all depend on what kind of game environment your making? For example if I wanted to make a level look photo real like lets say Gears of War or perhaps Def Jam Icon, would I use photos mainly? I understand painting textures is a good idea if your making a certain style to an environment but I still fail to see how one can make a photoreal texture strictly from painting and no other source.


2) Do all next gen game environments use bump maps at all, or did Normal Maps replace bump maps altogether?

3) My last question involves lighting and rendering. Some people I see use some sort of GI whenever they show their game environments. I thought this was a bad idea, because for one aren't you suppose to be making your own lighting the ole fashion way(you know spotlight here, spotlight there, tweak etc etc), and not just slapping on a plug in? Also when I present my environments for a portfolio, do I render my scenes or should I show my game environments in the viewpoint?


Thanks again for making this wonderful thread.

You make a photo-real texture without using photos by being good :) As for whether or not to use photos, it depends on your personal preference and workflow. It's a good idea to have some stuff in your portfolio that is exclusively handpainted, but also some stuff that is photo-sourced so you can show that you know how to use photos properly.

black and white bumpmaps were a hack and are no longer used. You can convert them into proper normal maps using the nVidia plugin in photoshop, or by using CrazyBump.

People tend to light everything with GI renders because it always makes things look good, even if the underlying model is shit :) It's okay to show off that stuff for an environment where you could realistically bake in lighting, but for showing off individual props and such it's better to use viewport shots. Not many D3D shaders support baked lighting and finding them can be difficult. In general, it's best to show things off as close to "in-game" as you can, which means viewport grabs with D3D shaders are best.

[itsallgoode9]

1,)Have to say, if anybody told you "not to use photos for texturing", you should never ask them for advice pertaining to texsturing again, as it is clear they do not know what they are talking about. Using photos for textures is the main way textures for realistic looking games are done in the game industry. Granted, there are many things that use hand painted textures, but if you're going for photo-realism, hand painting isn't exactlly the best route to get there.

When people talking about using photos for textures, it isn't just finding a photo and slapping it on as a texture...there's a shit-ton of editing involved to get a good texture out of a photo. Bits and pieces of many images are generally combined to get a good final texture, as well as lots of color/hue/saturation/etc. as well getting rid of shadow/highlight information. Possibly your textures using photos had not turned out well because you were just trying to use a single image and not editing it to fit your specific needs?

You mentioned Gears of War and Def Jam...you definitely would use mainly photos for these.

3.) I like to put both in my portfolio, that's just me though, because I enjoy rendering alot so if I already have an environment made, i figure I might as well go ahead and make a render from it. But for games, the viewport is the most important one.

[Vigrond]

Building upon what you said regarding throwing a grenade in the room full of chairs and tables etc. This brings up my question about destructable environments or objects. This seems to be a new coming standard and expectation in games. How would one go about modeling something thats destructable? My best guess is to build the object and splice it up. How difficult is something destructable IYO to implement? What if an entire building has to be destructable, like what we have seen in Crysis.

Or even the palm trees in that game seem to just crack and fall over at the EXACT point in which you shoot them. How do they achieve that?

[Ghostscape]

Crysis builds it's buildings out of around 20 pieces that are stitched together using a physics stress system. Smaller objects, like chairs, have a "fixed" model and then several damage pieces and always break the same way.

The trees (this is the part I don't remember as well) IIRC are broken in-engine, the tree model is sliced at the break point and some jagged trim is added. The "old" model where it was gets replaced with the stump model that was generated, and a new trunk model is added to the world and falls in the direction it's supposed to.

They gave a speech on it at GDC and the info might be on the GDC site but I can't be arsed to go looking for it.

[itsallgoode9]

i'm really interested to play Crysis and see that stuff in action, it looks absolutly insane for not using a Physx processor!

[urgaffel]

Like mentioned earlier, most games use a swap system where you have the whole object being swapped for a pre-broken version (or several versions, I think GoW has 3-4 progressively more broken states for the cover that can get blown to pieces). Another way to do it is to have the pre-broken objects in the scene to begin with, I think Black does this. If I remember correctly, you can see the sharp edges between the pieces in some circumstances.

I have no idea which is the more efficient, swapping a mesh and then performing a physics simulation on the borken pieces or skip the swapping step and just physic it when needed. One thing I do know is that breaking stuff apart isn't that much fun after a while ;)

It would be cool to see some sort of realtime fracturing going on but I have a feeling we're still quite a far from that being common. Maybe 2nd or 3rd generation PS3 games could do it since they could use one of the processors for the fracturing and simulation...

[HellBoy]

Quick question guys, comparing unreal and hammer in terms of easiness or/and flexibility, which would you recommand? Also, can a environmental artist be asked to do any vehicle creation if needed?

cheers

[urgaffel]

I haven't used Hammer so I have no idea how easy to use it is but Unreal is relatively easy to get stuff into. Turning it into a playable level is a bit more work...

As for vehicles, it's possible. It varies from company to company I suspect but it doesn't hurt knowing how to model something apart from environments. Besides, environments are made up of all sorts of things, vehicles can easily be one of them.

[Vilperi]

Is there some great rule of thumb how to figure out what map size to use for a given object?

[urgaffel]

Depends on the game. For a fps where the player will be close to the surface, a 1024x1024 for 2 square meters is usually a good rule of thunb. 512 might even be enough.

(For an rts, a lot lower and handhelds I'd guess at (preferably) nothing above 128x128)

Your mileage may vary of course, it depends on the game, the engine and the style (and company).

[HellBoy]

I haven't used Hammer so I have no idea how easy to use it is but Unreal is relatively easy to get stuff into. Turning it into a playable level is a bit more work...

As for vehicles, it's possible. It varies from company to company I suspect but it doesn't hurt knowing how to model something apart from environments. Besides, environments are made up of all sorts of things, vehicles can easily be one of them.

Thanks mate

I assume I have to purchase Unreal Tournament 2004, does the game come with the editor or do I have to download it seperatly?

[heavyness]

Quick question guys, comparing unreal and hammer in terms of easiness or/and flexibility, which would you recommand? Also, can a environmental artist be asked to do any vehicle creation if needed?

cheers

i haven't used Hammer either, but there is so many tutorials out there, i don't see it being a hard thing to do. i have used UnrealED [it comes free with UT2004] and it's fairly simple. couple rules you have to remember, but not to hard. there is also this plugin (http://www.fireproofgravy.co.uk/index.php?item=jamlander) that helps get entire levels from 3ds max into UnrealED and ready to play with 1 click.

[Ghostscape]

Is there some great rule of thumb how to figure out what map size to use for a given object?

Yes, there is. Move the object in the viewport so that it is the size it will be on screen (keep in mind most 360/PS3 games run at 720p), IE so that your FPS weapon is about 350 pixels tall.

Now apply a 512x512 1pixel checker texture. If if is too grainy, tile the texture 2x and check it - if it's still too grainy tile it 4x. Likewise, if you can't see the pixels in the texture at all, tile it .5x, and if you still can't see them, tile it .25x.

Whatever the texture size that fits best is set at (512x2 is 1024, 512x.25 is 128, etc), use that texture.

Anything else is being wasteful.

[urgaffel]

Now apply a 512x512 1pixel checker texture. If if is too grainy, tile the texture 2x and check it - if it's still too grainy tile it 4x. Likewise, if you can't see the pixels in the texture at all, tile it .5x, and if you still can't see them, tile it .25x.

Whatever the texture size that fits best is set at (512x2 is 1024, 512x.25 is 128, etc), use that texture.

If you are using 3dsmax, the easiest way to do it is to use the Checker Map. If you want to see what the 512x512 pixel density will be like, tile it 256 times. For a 1024 density, tile it 512 and so on (tile it half as much as the resolution you want to see). And change the colours from black and white to something that will be easier on the eyes ;)

[Gephoria]

Thanks mate

I assume I have to purchase Unreal Tournament 2004, does the game come with the editor or do I have to download it seperatly?

the GOTY edition, it comes with the editor and some bonus videos on learning the editor that were very well put together of ut2k4

[itsallgoode9]

going along with that the others said about finding out what is a good texture size.....no matter what size you decide on, be CONSISTENT with the scale/texel/density of your textures.

If you have a mix of 512, 1024, 256, the texel density difference will make your entire environment look bad. Even if you have memory constraints and must stick with an overall lower texel density, it will look much better, more grounded, more cohesive than if you have mixed densities all over the place

[onepunchmachine]

You dont have to buy unreal 2004 to use the editor. There is a free runtime demo which has a working editor+ you can wak around in your map and see everything in real time.
Its free for education and non-commercial projects
Runtime Demo (http://udn.epicgames.com/Powered/UnrealEngine2Runtime22262001.html#Downloading%20the%20Runtime)

[Shade01]

going along with that the others said about finding out what is a good texture size.....no matter what size you decide on, be CONSISTENT with the scale/texel/density of your textures.

If you have a mix of 512, 1024, 256, the texel density difference will make your entire environment look bad. Even if you have memory constraints and must stick with an overall lower texel density, it will look much better, more grounded, more cohesive than if you have mixed densities all over the place

That was actually one of the things I noticed immediately about STALKER; the texture resolution for things sitting right next to each other was all over the place and made some objects really stick out.

[Vilperi]

http://www.al3d.net/half-life2.htm

I found this cool looking next-gen HL2 environment. There's a radiosity solution that has been baked in to the textures. I'm very puzzled about how this radiosity baking is done. If the light, shadows and GI is baked in to the textures, doesn't that mean that every texture is unique, and therefore instancing textures becomes impossible? Or have I understood this all wrong?

[EricChadwick]

Cool thread.

In my experience, lightmapping is applied as a separate layer on top of the tiling textures. So you use two sets of UV coordinates. The 2nd UV set is made such that every surface has unique pixels, and all surfaces are completely within the 0-to-1 UV box (no tiling). This setup is typically called an Atlas.

The lightmap(s) in a level are basically either Multiplied or Added onto the surfaces, or sometimes a combo method like Overlay (allows for brightness and darkness, not just one or the other).

Lightmapping can be very limiting though, lightmap pixels can get very large, and there has to be some empty UV space between the surfaces otherwise you get light-bleeding or seams. They're also fairly static, the lights cannot move.

Some examples of Atlases.
http://www.blackpawn.com/texts/lightmaps/default.html

Resistance: Fall of Man is using an interesting variation on lightmapping. Instead of baking light brightness into pixels, they seem to be baking special normalmaps. These are then used to give lighting direction to the regular tiling normalmaps (bump). Some nice pictures and breakdowns here...
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=21&t=527099

HL2 is using a very interesting setup where the level is basically filled with tiny cubemaps which each cast light in the immediate area around them, so props/entities get different localized lighting as they move around.
A cool presentation from 2006 about this...
http://ati.amd.com/developer/siggraph06/Mitchell-ShadingInValvesSourceEngine.pdf
Some videos on this page...
http://ati.amd.com/developer/techreports.html (scroll down to the ACM Siggraph 2006 section)

A bit technical, but the pictures are great.

[dpizzle]

for those interested in learning UnrealEd....
this is the only site you will need :)
http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_home.php
or this one may be better... http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_dl_index.php
you have to register, but it is free...and there are TONS of videos, from start to finish.

and if you are having problems finding the videos
here is the link (won't work unless you are logged in)

http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_dl_list.php?c=13

this should help anyone who is even remotely interested in learning (i'm learning, myself) and i'm sure it will follow over to UnrealEd3, in many ways.

:thumbsup:

[itsallgoode9]

The past two posts were GREAT! i've been away from cgtalk for a while. That link to the method of lighting in Resistance was amazing! thanks for posting that! It intrested me a TON because I love making light maps for my enviroments....i have a strong passion for lighting...I saw he posted his website in the lighting/rendering section as well. I'll see if he'll chime in on this thread with his knowlege.

[utchamp]

Thanks for all the help!:thumbsup:


ive always wanted to be an environment modeller but i had no idea that it was sooo much work. !:eek:



[and where is the sticky? :scream:]

[Rotab3D]

Now apply a 512x512 1pixel checker texture. If if is too grainy, tile the texture 2x and check it - if it's still too grainy tile it 4x. Likewise, if you can't see the pixels in the texture at all, tile it .5x, and if you still can't see them, tile it .25x.

Whatever the texture size that fits best is set at (512x2 is 1024, 512x.25 is 128, etc), use that texture.

Anything else is being wasteful.

- Would you please explaine this rule more .. acutally i dont get the part " If it's too grainy " isn't checker map supposed to be grainy by itself ?? perhaps iam missing something of the meaning ... it would be greate if u show example with images ..

- another question .. is there some kind of standard scalling unit setup that i should use for games and set my 3D app unit system to that standard system ?

Texture resolution is really one of hardest challenges that iam facing while doing game art ..

- yet another issue relating to texture res .. say my UV map is 1024 or 512 in size .. when i use photo refs as source for my texture most of them are mostly larger than the UV space specified for them .. say that source image for a brick is 2048 in res and my uv space for that brick wall is 1024*512 ... how should i rescale it down in photoshop ?? is there some kind of rule for that .. most of the time i end up getting poor res textures ..

thanx in advance for help .. and this is really great thread ..

[Interactionman]

Nice to see environments getting some love for a change :thumbsup:

For those thinking of getting into using the Unreal Editor, if you get the collectors editon of Unreal 3 when it is released (next month I believe) there is an art book and dvd with tutorials on using the new version of the editor.

My hot tip for adding detail and that extra 'something' to environments - alpha planes! Take a single poly (2 triangles, making a square), make a texture with dirt in the centre and an alpha channel that blends out to nothing at the edge of the square. You can use this poly repeatedly around your level, on the floor, walls etc. especially where the walls and floor meet, under the edges of objects touching the floor - basically wherever dirt would naturally accumulate. It's a pretty simple thing but it can make a huge difference to your environment. Of course you can use them for other things than dirt - decals, panels on the floor/walls etc...

http://www.interactionman.com/images/content/dirtSample.jpg
sample dirt texture (black = transparent)

http://www.interactionman.com/images/content/dirtExample.jpg


I used this technique in both environments on my demo reel (more in the cave one) and it really helped make them look more authentic and lived in.


http://www.interactionman.com/images/content/caveRender02.jpg


http://www.interactionman.com/images/content/scifi_environment.jpg


Happy environment modelling everyone! :D

Stuart
www.interactionman.com (http://www.interactionman.com)

[urgaffel]

My hot tip for adding detail and that extra 'something' to environments - alpha planes! Take a single poly (2 triangles, making a square), make a texture with dirt in the centre and an alpha channel that blends out to nothing at the edge of the square. You can use this poly repeatedly around your level, on the floor, walls etc. especially where the walls and floor meet, under the edges of objects touching the floor - basically wherever dirt would naturally accumulate. It's a pretty simple thing but it can make a huge difference to your environment. Of course you can use them for other things than dirt - decals, panels on the floor/walls etc...

You can also do that with a second/thrid uv-channel, reducing the need for alphaplanes. The problem with alphaplanes is that they don't play nice if your surface isn't pretty flat and it can also cause z-buffer fighting. However, if your engine of choice doesn't supoprt using multiple uv-channels, alphaplanes are a good way to go.

You got some nice work there Stuart, I like the control room a lot. The floor looks a bit empty though, maybe some subtle sci-fi grating or something along those lines might look nice.

[JezGreen]

First of all a 'Big you up' to all the people that are taking the time to answer questions!!!

I'm currently having a few problems texturing an environment. It’s a solid one piece mesh, and i'm currently trying to add multiple Blinns to it.

1/ is this poss?

2/ Am I doing it the right way?



At the mo I'm creating a new Blinn (Hypershade), and then assigning the Blinn to the faces I've highlighted. The problem is the faces are still being shown as the Lambat material (not a Blinn). (The UV's are also still on the same sheet in the texture editor). I'm pretty sure I don't have to extract parts of the mesh just to get another Blinn attached to them!?



Hope my explanation is ok? I've been drinking a hell of a lot of coffee, and spent a looooong time trying to sort this problem out.



Many thanks

Jez



PS I’m using Maya

[EricChadwick]

Unfortunately not the strategy any game uses for its terrain (AFAIK). I posted some tips elsewhere recently that might help.
http://boards.polycount.net/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=239780&an=0&page=0#Post239780

[Gephoria]

Not beating around the bush question: Where to get ideas for environmental assets?

I'm having trouble finding items (rocks, possible treesumps, ruins, plantlife) to find to populate a 1 sq mile terrain level in TGE, Just shooting out for ideas, i have a few solar windmills for the canyon, any ideas appreciated

posting of level so far on youtube:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5iDIU21vgI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5iDIU21vgI)

if you'd like to crit my work pls pm them, (this isn't my thread)

[JezGreen]

Hi eric, sorry was that a reply to my post, or a reply to baking light into textures?

[urgaffel]

I'm currently having a few problems texturing an environment. It’s a solid one piece mesh, and i'm currently trying to add multiple Blinns to it.

1/ is this poss?

2/ Am I doing it the right way?

1. Yes it is possible. I've noticed that Maya can be a bit stupid when it comes to assigning different materials to different polygons on the same mesh so I usually use the multilister for that (Window -> Renderingeditors -> Multilister, right click the material you want to assign -> edit -> assign).

2. You can do it that way yes but you don't have to. I guess it depends on how the engine you're using handles drawing things it can't see. If your terrain is one big mesh, then it might draw a lot of unnecessary geometry if it needs to calculate the whole thing even if you only see a small part of it so splitting it up can be beneficial.

Not beating around the bush question: Where to get ideas for environmental assets?

I'm having trouble finding items (rocks, possible treesumps, ruins, plantlife) to find to populate a 1 sq mile terrain level in TGE, Just shooting out for ideas, i have a few solar windmills for the canyon, any ideas appreciated

Look at real life, movies and comics and whatever else you can find for inspiration. Not sure what kind of environment you want in your level though, if it's set on mars then you won't have many trees... If you mean where you can download pre-made environment props, then I have no idea.

[JezGreen]

Once again thanks urgaffel!! I'll go and give it a go.

My copy of Maya and PC are starting to throw a lot of tantrums as of late

PS the majority of the level will be able to be seen at once

[LordHorusNL]

Right i'm working on a environment right now and instead of breaking up my geometry with alphaplanes i wanted to use a second uv set for adding dirt but i cant get it to work.


So how would one go about having a base texture on channel 1 and a dirt "alpha" on channel 2.

I'm using 3ds max 8

[urgaffel]

So how would one go about having a base texture on channel 1 and a dirt "alpha" on channel 2

Set your uvw map modifier/uvw unwrap modifier to use uv channel 2 as well as setting the bitmap uv to 2. You can use the Composite shader since it takes the alpha channel into account but doesn't display properly. An alternative is to use an .fx file, this one for example: http://luxinia.de/index.php/ArtTools/3dsmaxFX

[LordHorusNL]

Ahh Thanks i took a look at that .fx file but thought it would be possible in max without plugins, but i'll try that thanks for the response urgaffel.

[urgaffel]

It IS possible, you just won't see it in the viewport. On the other hand, I don't think you'll see the fx file if you render it. It's a crap trade off really... At least you don't have to redo the uvs.

[dpizzle]

Set your uvw map modifier/uvw unwrap modifier to use uv channel 2 as well as setting the bitmap uv to 2. You can use the Composite shader since it takes the alpha channel into account but doesn't display properly. An alternative is to use an .fx file, this one for example: http://luxinia.de/index.php/ArtTools/3dsmaxFX



does anyone know if maya 2008 has an option like this? it would be extremely helpful...

thanks

:thumbsup:

[Kromar]

does anyone know if maya 2008 has an option like this? it would be extremely helpful...

thanks

:thumbsup:

maybe with a layered texture?


i have a problem with a bump map in maya. i planar mapped the object seen in the picture below. now if i apply a bump map to it, the bump map gets inverted in the middle. (the normals are in the same direction on both parts of the object)

how can i fix that other than use a different mapping mathod?

i tried to invert the normals of one side, that fixes the bump but i somehow dont like that solution and im sure there is an other way.

http://www9.file-upload.net/thumb/20.10.07/wi37w.jpg (http://www.file-upload.net/view-454361/bump.jpg.html)

[Synthesizer]

It looks like what is happening is that you projected from the right side of the object, and have the bottom half of the projection with flipped UVs now. Below is an example of what I mean.

http://www.simonbarsky.com/cgtalk/flip.jpg

If you press the button highlighted in red, it will show you which way your UVs are facing. Blue is facing one way, and red the other. These will control which way the normal map faces. If you select the faces that are pointing in the opposite direction (red) and flip them horizontally, it should sort itself out.

[Kromar]

thx alot for the tip:D
so if i want bump maps on non symetrical objects i have to uvmap both sides seperatly?

[Synthesizer]

Well, just make sure that the UV faces are all pointing the way you want them to after it's all layed out. Some game engines don't have a problem with flipped faces though, so if you have to worry about this just depends where object will finally end up.

[LordHorusNL]

OK i got the UV Channels to work if i set the Diffuse Color of a material to Composite (not the material itself!) and this way the alpha works as it should, However! this is not going to work if i want seperate normal maps for the 2 or more channels.

So i tried setting the default material to Composite (the button next to the material name), defined a base material and then a second material for the alpha. It seems however that even if i set this second materials diffuse color to "Mono Channel Output Alpha" the material wont show the alpha's opacity.

Does anybody know how to get around this or am i stuck using only 1 normal map for just the base material?

[urgaffel]

Sorry, I have been using Maya at work so I get my terms confused, I meant a composite map :) As far as I know, there's no easy way to layer normal maps. The only way I can think of for it to display in the viewport would be to use an .fx shader. The ShaderFx plugin would be useful for that since you can construct your own shader from different nodes which seems to be the easiest way to do it. If you want to render it out, cheat and use a normalmap for one channel and a bump map for the second since the Normal Bump map has slots for both.

[dpizzle]

maybe with a layered texture?
well, that may work - but it would be worthless for real-time engines, as far as i know.
but thanks for your input, i should have specified better.

As far as I know, there's no easy way to layer normal maps
don't know if this would be helpful to you, but CrazyBump has a Normal Map Mixer, which lets you combine multiple normal maps while enabling you to tweak them seperately.

http://www.crazybump.com/ (http://www.crazybump.com/)

:thumbsup:

[Molte]

Actually I read this article recently wich describes a way to combine normal maps
in photoshop, might be worth the read
http://www.projectoffset.com/blog.php?id=74



I have a question tho, what is the most commen dds compression used in the industry?
Ive seen dxt5 used a lot, but I've also read that it messes up normal maps (slightly)
due to the lossy compression.

[urgaffel]

don't know if this would be helpful to you, but CrazyBump has a Normal Map Mixer, which lets you combine multiple normal maps while enabling you to tweak them seperately.

http://www.crazybump.com/ (http://www.crazybump.com/)

:thumbsup:

What I meant was that as far as I know, there is no easy way to layer several normalmaps in Max and have them show up in realtime in the viewport without resorting to a custom fx shader. If you want to do it for a render you might be able to with composite maps and whatnot.

Crazybump is an awesome program that makes creating normalmaps from diffusemaps a breeze. And you get some REALLY nice results real fast too.

*edit*

A simple way to layer normalmaps in Photoshop is to use the level adjusment. Open the blue channel and change the "Output Levels" from 255 to 128 so that it's greyish then change the layer blending mode to Overlay. Collapse it and run the nvidida filter set to "Normalize" to make sure you don't have any strange values in the map which can cause errors in seams...

*edit 2*

Although do use Crazybump for layering normalmaps, it has so much more finesse :D

[akvan]

I have a really noobie environment question. When you are making buildings and such for a video game, how does your environment fit together after your modeling and texturing process is done? Like say you're assigned a city block to model, are you also given the exact measurements? Or do you just model from the concept sketch? If you model without any measurements, how does it fit in the game engine? Won't it be the wrong size and won't match with say, another team members city block when they try to attach it together?

[urgaffel]

You model to a scale. For example, if you're doing an fps you would model it to real world scale so that your basic human is about 1.8m/6ft etc. Like you said, if you don't, you will never be able to fit different things together since all the artists would do things to different scales.

[Elmdorz]

When texturing for game environments, what process do you use? Do you texture an environment the same way you would a character, which pretty much means uv mapping the entire scene, putting it on the texture sheet and painting over in photoshop or do you just make a bunch of tileables and slap them on the meshes? I'm confused because I have seen environments where it appears the person uv mapped everything such as this:http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/island_2.jpg

And this amazing artist also appeared to do a dungeon where these textures appear to be repeatables.(correct me if im wrong) :http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/mino_05.jpg
http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/mino_tex_6.jpg


Another texture here:http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/mino_tex_1.jpg


In regards to the the textures on the last link, is that one big texture sheet, or are these 2 repeatables that are seperate? If the artist placed 2 repeatables on one giant texture sheet, how is he able to make it place well on the wall without running into any problems.

P.S these are not mine obviously its Nick Popovich, i figured I use his work as an example.

[Elmdorz]

When texturing for game environments, what process do you use? Do you texture an environment the same way you would a character, which pretty much means uv mapping the entire scene, putting it on the texture sheet and painting over in photoshop or do you just make a bunch of tileables and slap them on the meshes? I'm confused because I have seen environments where it appears the person uv mapped everything such as this:http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/island_2.jpg

And this amazing artist also appeared to do a dungeon where these textures appear to be repeatables.(correct me if im wrong) :http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/mino_05.jpg
http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/mino_tex_6.jpg


Another texture here:http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/mino_tex_1.jpg


In regards to the the textures on the last link, is that one big texture sheet, or are these 2 repeatables that are seperate? If the artist placed 2 repeatables on one giant texture sheet, how is he able to make it place well on the wall without running into any problems.

P.S these are not mine obviously its Nick Popovich, i figured I use his work as an example.

[Auctane]

Ok, I got one here - For FPS type environments built in level editors - can you/how do you handle things such as grunge maps, shadow maps and decals (such as grafiti) on top of tileable textures on level editor geometry?

[JuddWack]

Floating polys can help Auctane. Don't forget to set them so they don't cast shadows and make sure your transparent areas get pure black on the spec map. There are other methods but that's what I've been using lately.

[Auctane]

What engine are you using?

So if you have a building, are you wrapping the entire building with floating polies?
& say you have some sort of fixture, are you baking the shadows in to that layer of floating polies? - when I am doing this it looks like carp... I am floating them just far enough off so no zbuffering occurs.

[urgaffel]

A lot of engines use a secondary (or third) uv channel for decals etc. Shadows could be handled by lightmaps using a separate uv channel or they can be dynamic and there's also vertrex colouring to get some lighting and/or occlusion going on. There are many different ways to do it. Personaly I dislike using floating polys since they can cause z-buffer fighting and they add more geometry to the scene which might or might not be a problem and they look messy heh...

[JuddWack]

Auctane, these are just my models in max. I don't really know what you mean about unwrapping an entire building with floating polys and I'm only baking ambient light into my textures. Urgaffel also raises some good points about multiple UV channels if that is an option for you.

Here are 3 examples of a model I'm currently working on. One is with the floating polys, one is without, and one is just the floating polys. I'm still learning as well, but it's an option worth exploring.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5132/withci6.jpg

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/961/withoutke4.jpghttp://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7645/aloneiu9.jpg

[Ramza]

If you are using 3dsmax, the easiest way to do it is to use the Checker Map. If you want to see what the 512x512 pixel density will be like, tile it 256 times. For a 1024 density, tile it 512 and so on (tile it half as much as the resolution you want to see). And change the colours from black and white to something that will be easier on the eyes ;)


So when you change the density of the checkers what are you looking for? About how big do you want your checkers to be. I know the smaller the checkers the better the resolution, but how do you know when you've gone to far with the texture size?



Depends on the game. For a fps where the player will be close to the surface, a 1024x1024 for 2 square meters is usually a good rule of thunb. 512 might even be enough.

(For an rts, a lot lower and handhelds I'd guess at (preferably) nothing above 128x128)

Your mileage may vary of course, it depends on the game, the engine and the style (and company).


Ok I'm trying to figure this whole texture size problem. Say I have a plank of wood thats 18ft long how would I texture something that large. Would I just create a smaller texture and then repeat it? And what if I wanted to put some specific details into it. Is their a trick to doing this? Or would I just make some decals to change it up?

[Auctane]

Ok, let me rephrase it:

Can you (and if so how) dirty up tiling textures on geometry created in level editors? Or do you just use BIG textures?

I figured out how to make my decals look better, they just wont be resueable. *tradeoff*

[PredatorGSR]

I had a quick question relating to the discussion earlier about combining normal maps. I typically combine them in photoshop by just using an overlay blend mode. This seemed to work fine for me, however I am just using it to overlay a detail normal map created from a texture onto a base normal map created from a high poly object. Are there any problems with using this technique in this situation?

[Ghostscape]

I had a quick question relating to the discussion earlier about combining normal maps. I typically combine them in photoshop by just using an overlay blend mode. This seemed to work fine for me, however I am just using it to overlay a detail normal map created from a texture onto a base normal map created from a high poly object. Are there any problems with using this technique in this situation?


Make sure you re-normalize the normal map after you overlay the detail otherwise you'll get incorrect lighting (usually results in bright white hotspots if you have a spec map on it. This happens in Crackdown a whole bunch for god knows what reason, it's incredibly easy to fix.).

When you grey out the blue channel and do the overlay method it gets rid of the blue channel data (which is usually where the least amount of information is) and then when you re-normalize it will re-build that information. This is less accurate than using a 3d blending function like Crazybump has, but it's also easier and not very noticeable, especially for low-level detail/noise. If you were trying to combine two extreme normal maps, like two very bumpy rock textures, you would lose a lot of the depth if you blended it in photoshop instead of using Crazybump.

[urgaffel]

Ok, let me rephrase it:

Can you (and if so how) dirty up tiling textures on geometry created in level editors? Or do you just use BIG textures?

I figured out how to make my decals look better, they just wont be resueable. *tradeoff*

You can't put dirt on a tiling texture without it tiling. Any trick that you see will involve a secondary texture that either uses a different uv-channel or floating polys or some other trick (shader based or geo based). There's no way to have a tiling texture and not have a change show up everywhere it's used. At least not as far as I know...

Could you show your decals? I'm curious to see what they look like.

So when you change the density of the checkers what are you looking for? About how big do you want your checkers to be. I know the smaller the checkers the better the resolution, but how do you know when you've gone to far with the texture size?

Create a box that is 2m x 2m and apply a checker texture that is tiled 512 times. That is a decent size for pixels :) When to stop is a good question, I can't really give you any hard rules for it. It usually comes down to how far you can push it without the game breaking. Then there are other things you can do to fake detail such as detail textures.

Anyway, you can't texture things so they look good if the player is right up close to it because no matter what you do it will look slightly blurry or you will be using a 4k texture on a door handle.

Ok I'm trying to figure this whole texture size problem. Say I have a plank of wood thats 18ft long how would I texture something that large. Would I just create a smaller texture and then repeat it? And what if I wanted to put some specific details into it. Is their a trick to doing this? Or would I just make some decals to change it up?

I would use a tiling wood plank texture and then use a decal or something to break it up unless it was a hero piece (something that has to look awesome), then I would use a separate texture for it.

[urgaffel]

Argh doublepost...

[Auctane]

So the man hole cover and the no parking sign are fine IMO, but the grafiti just looks lame. I was just going to pull the bricks and blend them in PS to make it look like its actually painted on there, unless someone knows a better way?

http://www.jaredbauer.com/CGTalk/Rubbish/decals.jpg

[urgaffel]

Desaturate them and scratch up the alpha. Make them look like they've been there a while. That might help.

[JuddWack]

What urgafell said about the grafitti sound sgood. In regards to the man hole It would be nice if there was some broken asphalt, rubble, stuck leaves, cracks, etc around the perimeter. You'd have to expand your opacity map.

[Swizzle]

If you want the graffiti to look more realistic, make sure the wall it's on and the graffiti itself uses the same bump/normal map. Remember that graffiti is just paint, so it's going to follow all the contours and bumps of the object it's on even though it covers up what's beneath.

[akvan]

If you want the graffiti to look more realistic, make sure the wall it's on and the graffiti itself uses the same bump/normal map. Remember that graffiti is just paint, so it's going to follow all the contours and bumps of the object it's on even though it covers up what's beneath.

question about this.. I'm still new to 3d graphics in general. If I apply the same normal map to my graffiti decal, then doesn't it get mapped statically? Lets say I want to position my graffiti not exactly center of my brick wall, the bumps and ridges on my graffiti they won't match my brick wall? I gave this a quick try and that was the result I kept getting

[Gephoria]

what would make a mars like scenery look fullfilled and vibrant, to give you more info on what i speak of, i'm working in TGE, mars topo info from nasa, textures are in place and i'm adding little doodads everywhere that already don't belong there like plants, some rocks. Also as i mentioned earlier solar windmills,

quests i have planned are around finding water, bones, setting up a perimeter, collecting alien eggs, and a short race through the canyon

i know mars is a vastly barren environment, but i need items that will draw the eye to them yet look seminatural at the least.

thank you in advance i hope this question fits the thread any responses crits are welcomed and appreciated,

demo version of fraps is annoying but does the job :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5iDIU21vgI

as you can see i have way to much empty space that i tried not to focus on for the video

[Elmdorz]

I have a few questions about Environment Texturing that has been bugging me for quite some time. What is the actual process of texturing environments? Do you texture them as you would a character which basically means going through the entire uv process and paint in photoshop? Or do you just take a photo and fix the corrections and slap it on the model? I'm confused as to what process should I take because it seems some environment artist use both methods or at least it appears that way. Take for instance this artist here:

http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/island_2.jpg


In that link, it seems as if he just uv mapped the island and painted it in photoshop.

But if you look at this dungeon and textures:http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/mino_02.jpg
http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/mino_tex_1.jpg

It appears almost as if he just made a repeatable and just used it all over the dungeon walls. And then of course is the confusing texture sheet that I like to call "the cram" :http://www.plushgolem.com/IMAGE/mino_tex_3.jpg

How would someone texture an environment off that last texture sheet? I remember trying to do something like that, and it was quite hard because the other textures would leak onto the mesh, whats the deal?

[GradiusCancer]

Elmdorz: the island example is standard tiling textures for most with a few props pages for unique pieces (plants, brick structure, etc.)

The dungeon uses the same technique. The texture sheets, depending on the game tech, could be handled one of two ways. Standard tiles split into multiple texture per each tile OR one material (the cram you call it), with the mesh cut up so each face can still tile properly. The latter was VERY popular back in ps2 days with vertex lighting. The meshes had to be cut up to light properly.

Here's links to an old tutorial I put together to explain the difference of using split up textures vs. a single and breaking up your mesh. (the first and last will give you the gist, the middle descripe setting it all up in max)
http://chrisholden.net/tutor/max_tiling00.jpg
http://chrisholden.net/tutor/max_tiling01.jpg
http://chrisholden.net/tutor/max_tiling02.jpg
http://chrisholden.net/tutor/max_tiling03.jpg
http://chrisholden.net/tutor/max_tiling04.jpg
http://chrisholden.net/tutor/max_tiling05.jpg

Hope this helps.

[Raane]

Quick question. I've got this concept in my head and trying to put it on paper, but i want to make it viable to do in the Oblivion engine. It's a kind of cliff dwelling, on a huge scale. What'd you suggest for a work flow, i think it'd probably be best making it as a series of tiles and the like but i have no experience with it.

[Natstar]

I tryed assigning new material on maya by using a lambert but it dosnt show up what I am trying to do is set up a poly plane to view my ortho drawing on so I can easly move it. I have tryed doing it like this video made by Mayan Escelante body modeling for games low poly but it just dosnt show up at all.

[dpizzle]

the easiest thing to do, in my opinion, is to just use an image plane
each viewport can have their own image plane, and the image can be moved in each axis.
i don't bother with the plane w/lambert shader, but that's just me.

i don't have maya with me right now, and i've been using max for the past month or so at work, so i can't exactly tell you how.

but it's super easy, it's somewhere in the setting in the upper left hand on each viewport>image plane.
then just select this image plane [usually works best to select it in the persp. viewport] and change it's position (xyz)

[Ramza]

Hey I've got a quick question for everyone. When your making terrian whats the norm on how to create it. Do you usually create it in the editor like unreal or hammer or do you create it in a 3D program and then import it into the editor, thanks.

[urgaffel]

Hey I've got a quick question for everyone. When your making terrian whats the norm on how to create it. Do you usually create it in the editor like unreal or hammer or do you create it in a 3D program and then import it into the editor, thanks.

I guess if the editor has tools for terrain making, then they are used. If not, you can create your terrain in your 3d app and import it. If you look at Unreal, there's usually a base terrain that's been prettied up with static objects and Hammer seems to have pretty good terrain tools as well so I'd say use them and then make it more awesome with static objects.

[itsallgoode9]

the easiest thing to do, in my opinion, is to just use an image plane
each viewport can have their own image plane, and the image can be moved in each axis.
i don't bother with the plane w/lambert shader, but that's just me.

i don't have maya with me right now, and i've been using max for the past month or so at work, so i can't exactly tell you how.

but it's super easy, it's somewhere in the setting in the upper left hand on each viewport>image plane.
then just select this image plane [usually works best to select it in the persp. viewport] and change it's position (xyz)

along with this post, make sure to turn off the Alpha channel, as it can slow down the viewport ALOT. I haven't used viewplanes in quite a while, just because I haven't had a need, but in 7.0 it slowed down navigation immensly. If that hasn't been fixed, just uncheck the "A" box in the viewplane options.

[Vilperi]

I'm planing on starting my first serious next-gen environment using unreal editor. But the thing is that I really am not comfortable with unrealed. That's why I would like to do as much as possible in 3ds max and use unrealed simply to view my work in realtime. How much can be done in max? A few days ago I found out about some software that exports levels from max to unrealed, but I forgot the name of this software and I think it was for previous versions of max.

[heavyness]

I'm planing on starting my first serious next-gen environment using unreal editor. But the thing is that I really am not comfortable with unrealed. That's why I would like to do as much as possible in 3ds max and use unrealed simply to view my work in realtime. How much can be done in max? A few days ago I found out about some software that exports levels from max to unrealed, but I forgot the name of this software and I think it was for previous versions of max.

http://www.fireproofgravy.co.uk/ and look at the bottom of the page, there is a link for a plugin for 3ds max called Jamlander (http://www.fireproofgravy.co.uk/jamlander_301.zip). now this was made for an earlier version of 3ds max [5 and 6] and UT2004. will it work for 3ds max 8, 9, 2008 or unrealed3... i don't know.

BUT, what it did was take your entire scene within 3ds max and export it into unrealed [lights, textures, and geometry]. you could also use dummies and name them correct for them to show up as ammo and weapons. if it doesn't work, maybe try emailing the guy... it was a great plugin.

[Vilperi]

That plugin doesn't work anymore. Is it possible to export levels from max without it? Are there any good tutorials to help beginners like me to get started with unrealed?

[RedThunder]

Going about scale... I always tend to just eye it and rely on my knowledge of structural buildings (I do construction work) when I build houses and so on. If there is any good tips about scaling and keeping things to scale I would love to hear them.

[akvan]

Going about scale... I always tend to just eye it and rely on my knowledge of structural buildings (I do construction work) when I build houses and so on. If there is any good tips about scaling and keeping things to scale I would love to hear them.

what works for me is creating a 6foot tall box and pretend its an average man and then use it as a scale for everything else. Creating a standard door with real life dimensions (check google) also helps.

[Inksworth]

I've got a non-technical question about design.

My real problem is I get an idea for a shot, or a single view that I want to have of a given space I'm working on. With one map I'm working on now I'm trying to rough it out for flow before working in the visuals, but the question I have is this: Are there any techniques for creating a space that's interesting regardless of where you are in it and how you're looking at it?

That's my biggest self-identified problem: I make maybe one interesting room, and sometimes it's only composed well from a few angles. Then there's the aspect of gameplay, which I'm just now starting to really work on.

Any techniques or good reading anyone can recommend?

[urgaffel]

I would say try to design your vistas around the gameplay flow. If you have a few routes that the player can take through your level, you will have a couple of points where you can create those awesome vistas/areas that you have in your mind. It is very hard to make something look good from all angles so what you do is concentrate on a few areas that will be hero areas, then make the rest look merely good ;)

One way to break it down is by colourcoding your level so that the hero areas where the player will spend the most time will be green and that's where you try to spend the most time on design and making it look awesome. Then you have the secondary rooms that can be yellow/amber which still look good but you don't spend as much time on them. Last you have the corridors and unimportant rooms that the player will just run past or through which you spend the least time on and these would be the red areas. This makes it easier for you to decide where to spend your time and energy and how to get the most out of your level.

[EricChadwick]

Not sure if this was posted before. Sjoerd "Hourences" De Jong has a bunch of solid tutorials for UE3.
http://www.hourences.com/book/tutorialsindex.htm

[Vilperi]

Here's a nice site too
http://architectonic.planetunreal.gamespy.com/tutorials/first_level_part1.html

I just downloaded Unreal Engine 2 Runtime, and I'm quite confused. Does this demo have the latest Unreal technology? Can I make Gears Of War quality stuff with it? I'm just wondering because there's unreal engine 3, which is better I assume.

[salman-fas]

somebody make this thread sticky:deal:

[RedThunder]

Is it important to learn be able to do normal maps for Environments? And if it is anyone have any good tutorials so I can start learning about normal maps???

[Ramza]

So I have a question about modular building design for level design. I'm making a building that has about twelve different modular pieces for the building walls. When you texture something like that do you make twelve different diffuse maps or do you just make a couple tilable maps and just repeat them over and over.

[urgaffel]

Is it important to learn be able to do normal maps for Environments? And if it is anyone have any good tutorials so I can start learning about normal maps???

I'd say yes, it's quite important to know how to use normal maps. These days most things are normal mapped (unless it's a handheld title and/or some painterly style) so do learn how to create and use normal maps.

Good normal map tutorial (http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/normal_workflow.htm)

Good program for generating normal maps (http://crazybump.com/)

So I have a question about modular building design for level design. I'm making a building that has about twelve different modular pieces for the building walls. When you texture something like that do you make twelve different diffuse maps or do you just make a couple tilable maps and just repeat them over and over.

Depending on your building you could create a few different textures and use them on all the modules (brick, trim, window, dirt). Some of these would be tiling (brick, trims) and some would be more specific (window, dirt). Depending on what kind of engine you're working with you can use a second uv channels to map dirt and things to break up the tiling textures or you can use a few extra polygons to do the same. There are a couple of different techniques to use for that kind of stuff. In short, you should be able to get away with a couple of tiled textures and some specific ones.

[copenhagenjazz]

Hi there

I am getting to the stages of a project where I need to start baking out lightmaps for the engine. My question is now how many lightmaps are acceptable? You can see my environment here:

http://www.januskirk.com/images/wip/thumbs/tn_FYP_wip_01.jpg (http://www.januskirk.com/images/wip/FYP_wip_01.jpg)
http://www.januskirk.com/images/wip/thumbs/tn_FYP_wip_02.jpg (http://www.januskirk.com/images/wip/FYP_wip_02.jpg)

It is only this environment I need to lightmap and get ingame, it is around 70000 polys and has around 35*1024 textures.
I originally thought one or two 2048 lightmaps would be sufficient but I am starting to doubt that.
Any advice is greatly appreciated :)

[itsallgoode9]

Hi there

I am getting to the stages of a project where I need to start baking out lightmaps for the engine. My question is now how many lightmaps are acceptable?...

I'd say, do a few different tests and see what you think is acceptable.

based on what i've worked on for Frontlines: Fuel of War, I'd say a 1024 would be fine for this scene. But, considering you're using 35x1024 maps for this, it seems you are able to handle much more textures at higher resolutions. We weren't able to due to the openess of our worlds and how much was able to be seen at any single time. But looking at your scene and taking into account the texture sizes you're using, I think a single 2048 should do the trick. If that doesn't work, then you might need two. But i think one should be more than enough.

It just comes down to a tug of war between artistic vision vs. the reality of your engine and/or game. It'd be great to use a 12k(just a random giant size) worth of lightmaps in a scene, but in the end you you need to decide "well, 12k looks AWESOME, but 1k looks a bit lower quality, although still pretty darn good...the shadows bleed a bit more but it's acceptable"

In reality, 95% of gamers aren't going to notice the difference of the shadow map if it is lower quality...one thing they WILL (intentionally super duper over emphasized) is the frame rate dropping or the level taking longer to load. Yeah, a few larger textures won't cause this, but a bunch of the "few larger textures" added up real damn quick and will cause that to happen.

So it comes to the point as an artist where you need to say "Ok, this is a good compromise". Even though that's more than you wanted to know, hopefully it'll help you more in the long run of making these decisions.

[mindrot]

I think this thread should be made 'sticky' :thumbsup:

~M~

[heavyness]

I think this thread should be made 'sticky' :thumbsup:

~M~

i agree! stick'ed.

[mindrot]

Cheers :thumbsup:

~M~

[itsallgoode9]

Going about scale... I always tend to just eye it and rely on my knowledge of structural buildings (I do construction work) when I build houses and so on. If there is any good tips about scaling and keeping things to scale I would love to hear them.

The key is to base everything off of something you know the real world height of. You are probably pretty good at eyeballing since you do construction, but sometimes sizes get mixed up no matter how good you are. Here are 2 pointers that i use every day at work

if you are putting your assets in an engine, know how the engine's units correspond to your 3d program.
At work we use Unreal 3 for our games. I know that for us 16 units in unreal is equal to a foot in Maya. We have Maya setup to measure in inches. Therefore I know that 1.33 inches/unit is equal to 1 inch/unit in UE3 (16/12). . The importance is to know what your units correspond to in your 3d program and stick with it. Other wise you can't do the next step.

Use something you know the real world height of and base other object’s size around it. You mentioned you do construction...so I’m sure you know a typical door height. Well, at work, when I’m making a building the very first thing I do is to make a cube with the dimensions of a real world door in Maya. Interior door size is something like 7ft x 3 ft, or somewhere close (we actually made a chart of many real world object dimensions...doors, stairs, brick, cinderblock OSB, Drywall, etc) so i make a maya cube that is 112 units x 48 units (look at previous paragraph to understand why I use those measurements). Once you have something you KNOW the CORRECT size of, you can eyeball everything else around that.
Once you get that, you don't always need to know the exact real world dimensions of the other objects you make, now that you have an object that you know is correctly sized that you can base the scale of everything else around. In the end, the important thing is that everything looks correctly sized in relation to each other.

[Ramza]

Hey guys I have a quick question. When your making a street mesh and your using a tilable texture would you still slice the mesh every ten feet or so or would you leave it one long mesh without any slices in it and just tile the texture a bunch of times?

[urgaffel]

Hey guys I have a quick question. When your making a street mesh and your using a tilable texture would you still slice the mesh every ten feet or so or would you leave it one long mesh without any slices in it and just tile the texture a bunch of times?I'd split it up. It gives you more flexibility when it comes to adding detail with decal textures and if you use any kind of vertex based stuff it will help as well (lighting, painting, masking).

[copenhagenjazz]

@itsallgood9; Sorry for replying so late but I didnt see your reply before now and just wanted to say thank you for your thorough answer. You are doing a wonderful thing helping others :)

Cheers

[Ramza]

Thanks Urgaffel for the quick response. And now I have another question in line with my other question. So I cut into my street mesh every ten feet and now I have a lot of slices (almost 500 for entire mesh). My question is for each of those 10 foot size polygons would I have to put a single planar uvw map on each one of those polygons or would I just one on the entire mesh. My thought for putting a single uvw map on each one is the manipulation factor but I guess I just don't know. Any thoughts on this or is their another way that I'm just not thinking about.

[Geo-Artist]

Hey everyone! New to the boards, nice to see a cg community!

I am new to the environment game modeling, and right now i am working on a temple. Since we are in next-gen nowadays, I always hear the mention of hi-poly environments. So are most game levels nowadays high poly? Posted below is this temple I just started working on(in early stages). Based off the reference pic, should I model every detail or no? I am confused because I hear people say stick with low poly, others say do only high poly. So what is the standard with next-gen environment creation?:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6491/temple2cb6.jpg

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1464/templetg4.jpg

[urgaffel]

You can do both. There are so many different reasons to do one or the other that I can't list them all... Also you don't HAVE to split the road up into 10ft pieces, like I said, it entirely depends on what kind of effects you want to be able to use. I think in this case it seems like it would be more useful for you to experiment on your own since I have no idea what the finished result is supposed to look like, if you'll be using a couple of different road textures or just tile one and use something else to break it up etc etc. Besides, best way to learn is by testing things out and see what happens :)

[PredatorGSR]

Hey everyone! New to the boards, nice to see a cg community!

I am new to the environment game modeling, and right now i am working on a temple. Since we are in next-gen nowadays, I always hear the mention of hi-poly environments. So are most game levels nowadays high poly? Posted below is this temple I just started working on(in early stages). Based off the reference pic, should I model every detail or no? I am confused because I hear people say stick with low poly, others say do only high poly. So what is the standard with next-gen environment creation?:


It all depends on your game, so there is really no standard. The game I'm working on, every part of the environment gets loaded into the ps3 at once and never gets unloaded, and we have a LOT of physics stuff, so we have to have lower polycounts and texture sizes than a game where you can unload and load new levels at loading screens, like a fps. That said, when modeling a prop, I never really have to worry about polycount too much, I use enough geometry to get the detail I want where I need it, and skimp in areas that won't be seen. If you model effeciently, in a next gen engine you should be able to make it look pretty damn good without a crazy polycount. Textures are the real killer though, and thats where the limits kick in real quick.

So as a rule, while this might not be the definite answer your looking for, use as many polys as you need to make it look good, but don't waste them where it isn't needed. On your temple, if its a background model, keep it lower poly, but if the player can run around it and jump around it, or if its for your demo reel, model all the bigger details.

Personally, when I'm modeling something, I model it higher poly than I know the final mesh would be, then cut it down later. I've found that if I limit myself too early, I'll leave out detail that should be in there in the name of saving polies. If you model in all the detail you need, when you're done you can then truly evaluate what is wasteful and what isn't, and your stuff will end up higher quality because you didn't limit yourself unnecessarily.

[Ramza]

Originally Posted by PredatorGSR
Personally, when I'm modeling something, I model it higher poly than I know the final mesh would be, then cut it down later. I've found that if I limit myself too early, I'll leave out detail that should be in there in the name of saving polies. If you model in all the detail you need, when you're done you can then truly evaluate what is wasteful and what isn't, and your stuff will end up higher quality because you didn't limit yourself unnecessarily.

When you say you cut down the final mesh to a lower poly model how exactly do you do that. Is their a special way of doing it?

[PredatorGSR]

Remove some details that can be done in a normal map, end edge loops with triangles, cut in some edge loops for better uvs, delete unneeded faces, and remove detail in areas that won't be as big on the screen, stuff like that. Optimizing a model is much easier than adding more detail after the fact.

[Geo-Artist]

I was looking at the environments for Streetfighter IV and I was wondering, how would someone get this kind of texture style? It looks like most of the textures were hand-painted , I also do not detect any normal maps in these environments. When it comes to this type of style, is it better to hand-paint all textures from scratch, or do you think these artist had photo references and just painted over them for the textures?
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9306/94370920080501screen016la7.jpg


http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/2190/94370920080317screen053sl1.jpg

[heavyness]

I was looking at the environments for Streetfighter IV and I was wondering, how would someone get this kind of texture style? It looks like most of the textures were hand-painted , I also do not detect any normal maps in these environments. When it comes to this type of style, is it better to hand-paint all textures from scratch, or do you think these artist had photo references and just painted over them for the textures?

good texture artists and a good engine with nice soft lighting will get that look. since it's a fighting game, they have a lot of poly they can use for their background [like the DOA series].

i also think it's their use of color and the fact they use every color that helps the backgrounds pop.

[ArtsyFartsy]

I would have to say that they are more than likely hand painted. Especially if you look at those balcony bricks in the second picture, you can definately tell it's made by hand and not photos. Of course nothing is that clear cut about how these things are developed.

Hand painting textures is not that difficult. With practice and some good brushes you can pop them out almost faster than it would take to edit a real world photograph. Generally speaking, hand painted textures will result in something that looks more stylized and cartoonish, whereas photographs have a much more realistic gritty look.

[Deliverer]

Ok, I see bits and pieces of my questions through this thread. First, thanks all for making this thread and actually engaging in helping one another. Bad to A.

If lets say you wanted to create a building, decayed, ruined, destroyed, untouched, what have you....would you build the unruined part as one object? Or build it in lets say, 4 walls and just piece them together in your editor of choice?

How about a ruined building? Windows blown out, pillars destroyed, floors with holes in them, the whole nine yards. Would you model, if it was 2 stories, each floor and import it in?


And also, if I want to build a demo reel for games, how should you make sure you are making it for environments and not modeling, what should it be comprised of? Thats a general question so let me be more specific. Should it be gameplay of my assets in the engine? Should it be the assets in the UE3 editor? Can you get hired with a reel of damaged barricades and modular objects or does it need to be full buildings, inside and out, chairs beds, whatever on the inside? Should it be in Max on a nice spinner? Should it have wireframe? Should I show it unwrapped if I wish to be more involved in texturing? What exactly are these companies looking to see in depth?

Im sorry if these questions have been answered, but if they have I dont understand the way they were worded. You can Barney style it for me I will not be offended, just dont call me an Rtard, I dont judge you ;)

Thank you again all for starting this thread and keeping it going, helps us peons learn!

[EricChadwick]

Not sure if this has been posted before, but some of the links here might help. Especially the fourth one, from Kevin Johnstone (enviro artist on Gears of War).
http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryEnvironment

Good guidelines for a game-artist portfolio
http://www.thejonjones.com/2005/10/07/your-portfolio-repels-jobs/
http://www.rsart.co.uk/2006/08/26/setting-up-a-quick-portfolio-site/
http://www.rsart.co.uk/2006/09/21/how-to-present-your-model-in-the-best-way-possible-for-feedback/
(lots more great tips on Rick's site, he's a vet who knows what he's talking about)

How to Get Into and Survive the Gaming Industry
http://www.rsart.co.uk/mediawiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

One of the best ways to get an env artist job is to show you can make a level for an existing game, using your own art.
http://chrisholden.net/making_games.htm

[Deliverer]

Oh my god, wow, thank you so much! You rock! Thats pretty much everything I was looking for! Thanks so much brother, I really appreciate that!

[gsokol]

I know it has been a while since the last post, but I think this question fits best here.

When creating real-time assets in 3ds max, how would one go about making a video of said assets? For instance, If I'm creating an environment in real-time and I want to do a camera flyby. Thanks!

[itsallgoode9]

@itsallgood9; Sorry for replying so late but I didnt see your reply before now and just wanted to say thank you for your thorough answer. You are doing a wonderful thing helping others :)

Cheers

Ah thanks for the props, but thank all the other guys here, they've been doing a much better job giving answers than I have. I have, unfortunatly, kinda dropped off the face of the cgtalk earth soon after I started this thread. There's been many industry/experienced guys chiming in on this thread and leading the way with answers for all your questions...which is what i was hoping by starting this. I will be back in full force one of these days~!!!

[JimmyMac]

I've been trying to find some help on generating ambient occlusion and have found some great resources. But, for example, when I open the render to texture window inside of 3D studio max after doing some basic lighting set up, I get completely lost. This is for a game environment so I don't have the luxury of plugging a map into a specific channel, right? If someone could help me understand the process, I would greatly appeciate it.

[EricChadwick]

AO for a level is treated similarly to a light map, every surface has to have its own UV space, no overlaps or mirroring. So you need a second UV channel. You can either make your own, or accept the default auto-UVs (there's an option in the dialog).

Best way to learn about Render To Texture is to go through the Help file and learn what each thing does. Sure, it takes a little more time and energy, but you'll get the most out of it this way.

[JimmyMac]

If I had looked there first, I wouldn't even had to have asked. The first thing I found in the Help Doc. was exactly what I needed. Lesson learned. Thanks!

[LaughingBun]

I know it has been a while since the last post, but I think this question fits best here.

When creating real-time assets in 3ds max, how would one go about making a video of said assets? For instance, If I'm creating an environment in real-time and I want to do a camera flyby. Thanks!

Ive been working on this same issue for my demo reel. I think the only way to do it is with a screen capturing program. Camtasia Studio is the best. there is also Hypercam which is free but I had some issues with and there is also fraps among some others. Try one out and see how it works. They are very good for recording small areas but if you try to record the whole screen you will have FPS issues.

[gsokol]

Thank you LaughingBun. I also have another problem that I would like to seek advice on. When using the DirectX material, and using shaders to show textures in real time, I seem to be having problem with the lightmap.fx. I used the standard.fx to do diffuse, spec, normal, etc, but that shader does not have a lightmap slot, however the lightmap one does not seem to be able to work in conjunction with that. I've searched high and low on the internet for other .fx shaders that may have all of this in one, but have yielded no results. Is there a way to find a shader that would have diffuse,spec,normal,Ambient Occ,Lightmap all in one?

[EricChadwick]

This BRDF shader has all those and more.
http://www.luxinia.de/index.php/ArtTools/3dsmaxFX#genbrdf

I don't think there's a separate AO ingredient, however if you have a lightmap then the AO should just be pre-multiplied (blended) into that bitmap. AO can also simply be multiplied onto your diffuse, if you're not tiling or reusing the diffuse UVs.

[EricChadwick]

Ive been working on this same issue for my demo reel. I think the only way to do it is with a screen capturing program.
There is the Make Preview function in Max, which lets you render the viewport out to an AVI file, so if you have the shaders looking they way you like in the viewport then you can animate a camera however you want and simply invoke that to "save" it out. Not dependent on framerate this way.

[Gephoria]

the preview render is also very nice not only for HLSL shaders but also lengthy animations that would take awhile to see if you have camera movements and angles correct.

[gsokol]

Fantastic thank you guys so much!

[Vilperi]

I'm trying to modify hourences outdoor water material (http://www.hourences.com/book/tutorialsue3water.htm) to use realtime reflections, but all I get is a huge mess.
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4909/waterot8.jpg
Someone please tell me how to do it correctly.

[sonomamashine]

What an amazing thread!!! i´ve read every single page and now hope some one can help me to understand the light maps and uv channels thing since i´ve been looking in the internet for good tutorials about it but had no success. I know that this kind of maps are used to bake the lighting information in a game enviroment since real time lights are very expansive, but i do not fully understand how to generate them. Now, some one posted this link http://www.cybergooch.com/tutorials/pages/lighting_rfom1.htm it is very infomative about the function of light maps and stuff, but that detonated my confusion becuse it does not give a sugestion of how to generete them.
I use 3D max and know the render to texture feature but can´t see a difference between a light and a shadow map made by it. In the article linked before, i saw a totally different kind of light map even with out a single shadow information, it does not have anything to do with the ones i get using render to texture. So, the light maps must have just the light info or the shadows too?, and how is the channels thing? what´s the difference between that and just bake the light and shadow info in to the diffuse map?
Sorry if these are very basic questions but just as i said, i´ve looked in the internet for answers but culd not find any to dispel my ignorance.
cheers and keep the cool thread! :D

[EricChadwick]

The kind of lightmaps they used (http://www.cybergooch.com/tutorials/pages/lighting_rfom4.htm) cannot be generated in regular 3ds Max, although you could probably write a script or plugin to do it. They probably used a post-process lighting tool they wrote themselves.

The lightmaps are actually normal maps, but instead of surface detail they encode lighting direction. As he says, yellow indicates no lighting, and bluish/reddish means lighting. If you invert a regular tangent-space normal map (a blue one), you get mostly yellow, which basically means the normals are pointing away from/into the surface. So for the lightmap, those pixels are dark. At least, this is what I gather from looking at it.

The regular normal maps applied to the surfaces use this lightmap to get the lighting direction and intensity, instead of from actual lights. Lighting color is done separately using vertex color, which is modulated (multiplied) onto the diffuse textures. Vertex color is much more crude, but color information doesn't need to be as detailed as the lighting info, so it works pretty well.

Hope this helps.

[sonomamashine]

The kind of lightmaps they used (http://www.cybergooch.com/tutorials/pages/lighting_rfom4.htm) cannot be generated in regular 3ds Max, although you could probably write a script or plugin to do it. They probably used a post-process lighting tool they wrote themselves.

The lightmaps are actually normal maps, but instead of surface detail they encode lighting direction. As he says, yellow indicates no lighting, and bluish/reddish means lighting. If you invert a regular tangent-space normal map (a blue one), you get mostly yellow, which basically means the normals are pointing away from/into the surface. So for the lightmap, those pixels are dark. At least, this is what I gather from looking at it.

The regular normal maps applied to the surfaces use this lightmap to get the lighting direction and intensity, instead of from actual lights. Lighting color is done separately using vertex color, which is modulated (multiplied) onto the diffuse textures. Vertex color is much more crude, but color information doesn't need to be as detailed as the lighting info, so it works pretty well.

Hope this helps.

First of all thnx a lot for the fast answer. Now i understand that the light maps in resistance fall of man are special, so i`ll forget about them. I just need to now if there`s a way to make true lightmaps since i`m not sure if the ones generated with max can be used in an engine like unreal, i`m just an artist, and to be honest do not now anything about programing, i don`t want to deal with numbers and maths, otherwise i`ll focus on modeling and may be texturing and leave the rest to lighting artists. Any good advice?

And just to finish my demonstration of my infinite ignorance, hope if any one can help me with a little problem i have in max, i`m using the standardfx direct x shader, everything look good but, as soon as i change the view angle to almost 90 degrees, all my textures turn blurry and ugly.
Here an image of my little nasty problem (forgive the poor example -__-)
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5939/blurexamplecopykd4.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blurexamplecopykd4.jpg)
Is there a way to fix that? or is it something i`ll have to live with until i learn an engine editor like unreal?

cheers!

[EricChadwick]

Unreal has its own lightmapping tools, you'll want to use them if you're developing in that engine. Hourences' site might help.
http://www.hourences.com/book/tutorialsindex.htm

The blurriness is mostly unavoidable, every engine has this artifact.
To understand why this happens, this article might help...
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,1155163,00.asp
Two pages later they describe Anisotropic Filtering, which is a technique for reducing that edge-on blurring. But it's usually an optional setting for each user since their framerate might slow down.

Also might help to read the first four links here.
http://www.rsart.co.uk/mediawiki/index.php?title=Links

[urgaffel]

In max you can sort of alieviate the problem by changing a few settings. If you got to Customize - preferences - viewport tab - configure driver (I think...), you have a couple of different filtering options at the bottom. Playing with those might help a bit. You can also change the blur setting in the bitmap shader in the material itself. However, this might not have any effect since you're using the direct x shader... As Eric said, it's pretty unavoidable unfortunately. The alternative would be horrible moiré-ing so I guess the blurring is sort of useful.

[sonomamashine]

Unreal has its own lightmapping tools, you'll want to use them if you're developing in that engine. Hourences' site might help.
http://www.hourences.com/book/tutorialsindex.htm

The blurriness is mostly unavoidable, every engine has this artifact.
To understand why this happens, this article might help...
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,1155163,00.asp
Two pages later they describe Anisotropic Filtering, which is a technique for reducing that edge-on blurring. But it's usually an optional setting for each user since their framerate might slow down.

Also might help to read the first four links here.
http://www.rsart.co.uk/mediawiki/index.php?title=Links

Ah, those links are very usefull man, thank you very much for taking some time to share your knowledege :bowdown:

[sonomamashine]

In max you can sort of alieviate the problem by changing a few settings. If you got to Customize - preferences - viewport tab - configure driver (I think...), you have a couple of different filtering options at the bottom. Playing with those might help a bit. You can also change the blur setting in the bitmap shader in the material itself. However, this might not have any effect since you're using the direct x shader... As Eric said, it's pretty unavoidable unfortunately. The alternative would be horrible moiré-ing so I guess the blurring is sort of useful.

Thnx for the advice man, i actually used the configure driver options already but, did not give any solution, thought about the blur settings in the material editor too but just as you said, the direct x shader do not suport them ha ha it seems that mip maping is a good alternative, and well i´m just making tests any way so, i´ll worry about it until i start some serius project :) thnx a lot every one for your time.

Ah sorry for using an individual post for each reply, i won´t do it again.

[urgaffel]

I forgot that there are ways around it if you start working with an engine (depends on the engine of course...). One way to do it is to sharpen the mipmaps. You can do that in Photoshop if you save your textures as dds BUT it won't work if the engine re-generates the mipmaps automagically. Another is to increase the mipmap distance or use some sort of detail texturing... Sadly most of the ways to deal with it rely on coders :)

[EricChadwick]

I started to add some info here about editing mips, might help.
http://wiki.polycount.net/Mip_Map

[sonomamashine]

I`m planning to use unreal, unfortunately i knew that this engine can not import custom mipmaps, but i know will find a good solution thnx to your advices. Thnx eric too for the cool link :D cheers!

[urgaffel]

Luckily it's fairly easy to add detail maps in Unreal so you should be fine :)

[B-Mac]

Hey guys, huge fan of the thread so far, everything posted is awesome!

Just a few questions here:

1. Did anyone find a max to UE3 exporter? I saw the outdated (as said by some). I guess I could try that with 3dsmax2009 to UE3.

2. With the whole lighting thing, I've never really touched. I'm assuming u can bake light maps in MAX and take those maps and apply them in some kind of lighting option in UE3? Just guessing here....

2A. With using lights in MAX, is there any restrictions for lighting? Could I just use a few omni's or spot lights (or whatever I need to get the result) and have it export out fine and convert to UE3 lights which will look the same as how I had it. How accurate would the result be?

As I said I'm not really sure on how those questions are, so bear with me!

Also, congrats to the winner of the environment competition too (the pirate area).

I would really love to use shaders within max to get some awesome results like that. Am I accurate when I say he used parralax mapping? It looked fantastic!

One more question to do with modelling.

If I wanted to get an organic looking terrain with hills and paths and stuff like that, could I use some kind of displacement map for it, or would moddling the terrain be best for the effect.

Thanks guys!

[robbys]

Hi

I'm pretty new to modelling and unwraping objects and I'm finding it hard to unwrap the windows on a building model. When i weld the corner verts together at a 45 degree angle it distorts the chequer map if I dont weld the corner verts it overlaps and would be hard to paint a texture for. I'm really not sure if this is even the right way to do windows. If there is a better way please let me know.

This is really bugging me and any help anyone can give me would be great.

Thanks
Rob

[urgaffel]

Depending on the window type, you could just have a strip of metal/wood and map each section separately. It will also save you some uv space. See attachment.

[EricChadwick]

@ B-Mac
I don't use UE3, but this site should be able to answer most of your questions.
http://book.hourences.com/tutorialsindex.htm

@ robbys
Best bet is almost always to make the pixels straight in UV space. Overlapping is fine, in fact it's encouraged for environment pieces like buildings. If you need that inside corner to be uniquely mapped instead, just detach the top and bottom faces and put them in the empty area inside the windowframe UV. Some good info here about modular design for game bldgs:
http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryEnvironment

[robbys]

Depending on the window type, you could just have a strip of metal/wood and map each section separately. It will also save you some uv space. See attachment.

Hi urgaffel

Thanks for your help. If i wanted a brick texture to wrap around the edge and return to the window frame what would be the best way of laying out the uv's os i dont get any distortion?

[robbys]

Hi EricChadwick

Thanks for the advice. Ill take a look at the link you sent.

[Elmdorz]

Hey this may seem like such a simple thing to figure out but I am confused unfortunately. How do you texture and uv map repeatable meshes such as walls or streets.

First I have a wall that i uv mapped using the checkerbox to make sure it is stretched. Now I am going to apply the stone texture to it, but it only looks right if the uvs are out of the box..:http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/7329/outuvboxwn2.jpg




But I have been told by multiple people that you must keep the uvs within that tiny lil box where my texture is showing.. So I selected the uv, went to shell and scaled it down so it can fit nicely in the box, but now the wall looks like crap:

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6432/blownuppa2.jpg


I am kinda confused.. What am I suppose to do? Is the first method ok? Also someone else told me to go to my 2d node and repeat uvs but I was informed that isn't the right way at least for games..

[urgaffel]

Whoever told you to keep it inside the box must've either been on crack or meant that you have to keep it there in certain circumstances.

In Maya you can tile textures by changing the 2d texture node or whatever it's called but it won't translate into an engine so to get tiling to work in games, you just do what you did at first, scale the uvs up until the texture tiles as many times as you need.

If you're using transfer maps then you need to keep the detail you want transfered within the 0-1 box but even then you can have things outside the box... Not sure why someone would tell you that to be honest.

[x-terna]

Hey guys. I have a 2 good questions.

1).For environments in a in-game cinematic (and or a pre-rendered) would they use high or Low Poly models?.

2). Is there jobs focused in creating environments for cinematics, or its just and overall position?

thanks

Hopefully my questions aren't confusing.:cool:

[blacker]

Hey guys. I have a 2 good questions.

1).For environments in a in-game cinematic (and or a pre-rendered) would they use high or Low Poly models?.

2). Is there jobs focused in creating environments for cinematics, or its just and overall position?

thanks

Hopefully my questions aren't confusing.:cool:

1) definitely highpoly, otherwise they would just render them realtime.
2) depends on the developer. If it's a big develeper they've likely got a separate cinematics crew.

[heavyness]

Hey guys. I have a 2 good questions.

1).For environments in a in-game cinematic (and or a pre-rendered) would they use high or Low Poly models?.

2). Is there jobs focused in creating environments for cinematics, or its just and overall position?

thanks

Hopefully my questions aren't confusing.:cool:

in-game cut scenes do use higher res models then actual gameplay. but since they are using in-game cut scenes, they want to make sure it loads quickly, so don't go to high.

for pre-rendered, like blacker said, poly count doesn't matter.

[Elmdorz]

Are there any good tutorials on texture painting environments? I am interested in environments that are stylish such as the new Prince of Persia, and Streetfighter 4. Are game textures like those, all hand painted from scratch? Or do people use some sort of photo as a base and go from there?

[x-terna]

1) definitely highpoly, otherwise they would just render them realtime.
2) depends on the developer. If it's a big develeper they've likely got a separate cinematics crew.

in-game cut scenes do use higher res models then actual gameplay. but since they are using in-game cut scenes, they want to make sure it loads quickly, so don't go to high.

for pre-rendered, like blacker said, poly count doesn't matter.

I thought so too thanks.

Cool! :D

so when applying for a position around that, my demo reel would consist of high detailed environments(to a point) with a camera flying around straight from an game engine(UE3) or a rendering software such as Mental Ray,Vray, and or Turtle?

and that would be it. thanks guys, again.:beer:

[urgaffel]

A fly thorugh in Unreal would be great for your reel. If you can't do that then a rendered fly through would be ok.

[hugereddragon]

im a student and starting to build an environment that may be used in my portfolio and i am leaning to gaming and was wondering what is a good polycount for the environment

[urgaffel]

Depends on the game. A full level can easily be around 800 000 up to 1 million triangles but you'll never have it all on sceen at the same time. If you're doing a small scene for your portfolio, maybe keep it around 50 000? If it's a bigger level with a fly through, then you'll be needing more of course.

It's easier to estimate if you break down the scene into elements and then try to do them fairly low so when you assemble your scene the total count won't be too high :) And of course, the target platform is important...

[hugereddragon]

thank you for answering my question and now i got one more and this may sound dumb but what is a fly through and can you do it using maya 2009

[heavyness]

thank you for answering my question and now i got one more and this may sound dumb but what is a fly through and can you do it using maya 2009

a fly through is literally a camera flying through your scene showing it off. nice smooth, slow motion so people can take in the details and see the sites.

also about the polygon count for the level... i would almost argue clean polygon structures and good use of polygons is more important then poly count.

[averyswill]

i wanted to find out what most people thought was good to put in thier portfolio? full working levels, just shots, props and so on. im currently working on a high poly level thats really just a room but very detailed with about 100 props... is that to much? with this one having a real life feel im planning two others a cartoony kids one, and styled one.

[EricChadwick]

Best bet is to include images that most clearly show what you did (not blooming like crazy, or too small, etc.), while also showing your work in the best possible aesthetic light (looking hot!).

Some examples of well-presented env work...
http://www.envart.com/ (also great that he shows everything right away, no clicking)
http://www.marc-antoine.ca/
http://www.brameulaers.com/

edit... also this is essential reading for setting up your portfolio.
Your Portfolio Repels Jobs (http://www.thejonjones.com/2005/10/07/your-portfolio-repels-jobs/)

[danshewan]

I have a question hopefully someone can help with...

I've recently begun experimenting with the UnrealEd, and I'm wondering about the mechanics of constructing entire levels from a modeler's perspective.

Say you need to create a level with multiple indoor areas, connected by open areas of terrain. Would you model entire buildings separately and import them as static meshes, or would you use standard BSP architecture with custom texture maps applied and then import props ( like furniture) and certain architectural details (like window frames and guttering) as static meshes? I have an idea I'd like to develop for a portfolio piece, but I want to ensure I get started on the right foot, as it were.

I'm guessing that the functionality of the building would determine how it would be handled - for instance, if a building was purely for eye candy (e.g. if there were no doors or windows where the player could gain entry), would this be imported as a static mesh? And how would this apply to streets or groups of buildings? Would the decorative buildings be static mesh imports, and the explorable buildings be shaped from BSP brushes using custom textures?

Sorry if I've repeated myself, I just want to make sure I get a firm grasp on correct workflow for managing multiple structure levels, and I'd appreciate any advice or pointers anyone could offer.

[BillSmithGH]

You shouldn't really have to use any BSP if you don't want to. For Unreal 3 you can make custom collisions for any of your static meshes out of primitive shapes with a 3D app and import it with the mesh itself.

From my understanding BSP is more of a level-designer tool for setting up the rough outline of levels (or whiteboxing) to manage gameplay. After that an environment artist will come in and swap out most if not all of the BSP for meshes. You might keep BSP for huge stretches of wall and floor I guess just because it's simpler in some cases but you don't have to.

[tterrel5150]

I'm an aspiring environment artist who needs to be pointed in the right direction. Please visit my website www.timterrel.com. Some of in is still under construction.

Thanks!

[tterrel5150]

Is there a difference in the way environments are built and textured for PC, 360, PS3?

[Wozner]

There is no big deal where you will create some props. You can create model within 3ds max or maya and then port into PS3 or XBOX360 (Of course if you have such resources and SDK)

[ozaffer]

Hi this isn't really a question specificly about environment art really but I see alot of people posting their UVW maps 1 with the basic colors 1 with the details 1 black and white (im guessing specular lighting)

Then an ultraviolet UV Map and I have been wondering what that one is for.

gsokol: Thank you ^^
ahh high poly... looks like a whole nother aspect of modeling guess I need to learn Zbrush sooner then I originally thought.

[gsokol]

Hi this isn't really a question specificly about environment art really but I see alot of people posting their UVW maps 1 with the basic colors 1 with the details 1 black and white (im guessing specular lighting)

Then an ultraviolet UV Map and I have been wondering what that one is for.

ozaffer: The "ultraviolet" maps are called normal maps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mapping

[tterrel5150]

I was recently looking for job openings and in the qualifications section it read (memory and texture limitations, collisions issues, streaming and loading etc). I understand memory and texture limitations, the other things mentioned I do not understand. Could someone please explain it for me, thanks!

[urgaffel]

Collision issues - You usually create a mesh that is a simplified version of what you see that is used for collision sothe characters have something to walk on etc. Sometimes it breaks :)

Streaming and loading - for some games, the whole world isn't loaded at once, it's loaded as you go (GTA is a good example) which is what streaming is. It's being streamed into memory from disc when needed instead of loading everything when you start the game.

[Sy1ar]

I have a quick question, apologies if this has been covered already.
Should we be too concerned with the levels layout / how it plays when working on your 1st reel?

All I’m really focusing on at this stage is the artwork; but I’m constantly reminded in literature and training to think about the level’s design and if it’s fun to play. If I intend to show flythrough’s of the environments for example, is layout something potential employers will pick up on?

[gsokol]

Well most of the time if you are an artist, people won't care if it will be fun to play, they just want to see that you can make stuff pretty. I can see that being something maybe a smaller development studio would like, and I have seen some job positions that require both. The vast majority of the time though, your job is to just make it all pretty and let the level designers worry about that stuff.

[itsallgoode9]

I have a quick question, apologies if this has been covered already.
Should we be too concerned with the levels layout / how it plays when working on your 1st reel?

All I’m really focusing on at this stage is the artwork; but I’m constantly reminded in literature and training to think about the level’s design and if it’s fun to play. If I intend to show flythrough’s of the environments for example, is layout something potential employers will pick up on?


It depends on the workflow of the studio you're applying, I believe. At my studio, the people who design the level do 0% artwork for the environments. They build with cubes and blocks and really primitive shapes and focus solely on gameplay. My team does 100% artowrk for the levels..we create all of the objects, modeling and texturing, but we don't actually place any objects in the levels...another team does only asset placement in unreal. In the case of my studio, when I applied for an environment art position, they could care less whether i had good level design skills or not. I'm not sure if all studios are like this or not, but I'm guessing most are since everybody becomes more specialized as the technology and complexity progresses.

[Sy1ar]

Thanks gsokol & itsallgoode9 for your replies. It's good to know and I can rest a little easier at least.