Mountain range

[Kriket-Guy]

I am sorry to say this but it's really bad. Many weak points. try harder and you will get the hold of it.

[JJASSO]

mmmh yeah I think it needs a lot a lot of improvement, 2 hours to get only this is not good at all, , the rock elements is such in low resolution you can see the pixels and the big grain on it , nothing even close to the snow mountains exposure or to the scale and levels in dark and white ,the sky is really bad, please add some photo or something. I'm sorry to say this but you really need to learn alot artistically and in your photoshop sopftware, please attach to the tutorials inside this matte painting forums, take your time learning, you will find it very worthy

[Rockhoppermedia]

Cheers for the replies this was used for a BW photo backdrop and it was given a gaussian blur to simulate depth of field, my client was dressed in high altitude climbing gear and sprayed with fake snow. The shot worked. this was a down and dirty job. My client wont release the rights to show the image here before the PR campaign starts. But the shot worked I got paid and I am happy.

I am a complete noobie here I am one of the top photographers in my organisation anything photographic I can answer the question. Problem is I want to learn to paint and that will take time so please be patient with me over the coming months when I post something dreadful.



there is a couple of painters here who are quick to critiscise sharply, when I teach photography I bring them down with a critique but I always always let them leave the classroom on a high. Bechira pm me with a very long description of what to do on one of my paints and that advice was fantastic and it helped. I am now to scared to post anything because everything get shot down in flames. Does anybody here think I post anything that I think is a masterpiece, no, I hold my breath because I know my mattes are awful. I would just like to have some encouragement once in a while.

It would help if critiques were substantiated with solutions. I do not understand sometimes how things have gone wrong. I have just bought a new wacom and the digital artiste matte painting book and spend as much time rereading tutorials. In truth the website tutorials for matte painting are a bit limited. Apart from the Tallgate tutorial.
I am extremely depressed because all i want to is paint what i see in my head and i want to share it.

So please be patient with me

Rich:sad:

Prolific poster absolutely awful Painter.

[Timmay]

Don't be afraid to post work even if it turns out to be terrible. Most people on here will tell you what is wrong with the piece. If they just say its crap, ask them why. If they don't answer then ignore them and ask others why its crap. I know my first couple of attempts were shot down because I had many mistakes. I still have mistakes. But I learn a ton from these critiques and comments. Don't take it personal.
Since you're still learning the technique, try the Gnomon DVDs. Those helped ALOT.

[Rockhoppermedia]

Cheers tim

Very fed up, I want to show my vision of the world. I have been dreaming about my pagoda piece for months. I may not be able to paint but some people are so negative. I try very hard to give people support but it feels like Im the cousin no one talks about. I may have to work with some of these guys in the future.

Do you know where Im coming from?

Rich

:sad:

[JJASSO]

richard I'm sorry if I was hard on my critic I apologize, but I just meant that there are some steps that you have to follow in order to be a great matte painter ,that's why I mentioned the tutorials section. being a digital artist and an artist in general is not easy you have to give some training to the eye first, feed of every other artist try to imitate them . I would suggest that after following some tutorials like the landscape composition rules and the visual composition tutorial will open a new world of posibilities .

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/135/120/index.php

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/135/120/index.php

after this start to doing some hand drawing , just pencil and a sketchbook, try to draw your surroinding enviroment give shadows and light only with it, then go to photoshop and just draw some elements, maybe a simple house a simple mountain then move forward to a bigger composition , each step will be more complex and at the end you will find ir very useful, learn how to integrate thing , take a look at your images and how are they shown , learn about aereal and linear perspective.

for example take some favorite scene , enviroment or matte painting you like from a movie for instance try to reproduce it, see why does it look real, study each material shadow and highlight, I recommend also

the art of digital lighting and rendering by jeremy birn, it will help you to understand how light works and you will be able to create your own with out 3d renderings

I hope this helps more

[Rockhoppermedia]

Thanks for the support James,

I do get a bit sensitive about art, I funded my way through my art degree with two minimum wage jobs. All the people on my course were from wealthy families who had the latest equipment and had no money worries. Me I wore hand me downs scrimped and saved for equipment and food. i was practically destitute and had to leave half way through my course. I was studying spatial design, special effect make up, set design,modelling. I have spent the last thirteen years building my way up to becoming a good photographer.

I realised last year that I should finish what i started, and it has been a hard education thank you for the links.

All i wanted to do was become a matte artist

Cheers

Rich

[Kriket-Guy]

Does anybody here think I post anything that I think is a masterpiece

Quite pleased with it,

But the shot worked I got paid and I am happy.


First of all you need to be a good self critque. You can't be happy with something like this. Try to look at a thumbnail of your work from time to time, and what pop's out to the eye you need to check it out.

Second, if your unexperienced client was happy that doesn't mean you did a great job.


In 2 hours you could have gone way better.


Practice,practice!

[Rockhoppermedia]

I have been to many studio sets and found them to be tatty close up, some of these sets have been used in high end drama. I have also had the rare oppurtunity to see some of the lucas film archive matte paintings, I have also seen matte paintings in the invisible art. Some of the best mattes have been extremly simple and under complicated. are we in danger of over detailing? My cyclorama backdrop is rubbish but it worked for the client and his brief. In bw with a blur it worked.

If you want me to spend another hour on it I could do, but that hour would have been a waste of time. Some mattes are on screen for seconds. Audiences are not going to pick out the finest details in 2 seconds. There is a lot of pyschology involved with placing a image on screen. everybody knows the shark in jaws is rubber, they still scream. A matte is to serve one purpose to reinforce the suspension of disbelief.

If this was to be on screen as a HD element for a minute, I would be pixel perfect building models referencing to death and three weeks later produced the finished article. Yes it is a fine art ILM have been known to paint injokes into there mattes as they know full well that the audience is too stupid to spot them.

Are you into mattes to show off artistic method ie photorealism or are you here to con the audience. We have two schools here One as a fine art the other to provide a service to the entertainment industry to con the audience. It takes time to paint a matte and in the industry time is money.

Yes I will continue with this forum as I was close to jacking it in, Yes I will learn to paint but give me space and time. this mountain job has just paid for the roof over my head and for food to be placed on the table. You cannot wear a matte painting nor eat it.

Thank you

rich

Professional Imagineer (rubbish painter .........but not for long!):eek:



Oh the quote about my inexperienced client, my client has been in thentertainment industry for thirty years with lots of heavy weight awards on there shelf.

[ndog]

Has anybody bothered to pop this into photoshop and view it as intended, BW with a fair amount of blur? No, it's not perfect but under those conditions it gets the job done.

I've had clients say up front they don't want a super detailed piece when there are time constraints. You hate to do it but you give them what they want and never show it in your portfolio.

[DZL]

I have been to many studio sets and found them to be tatty close up, some of these sets have been used in high end drama. I have also had the rare oppurtunity to see some of the lucas film archive matte paintings, I have also seen matte paintings in the invisible art. Some of the best mattes have been extremly simple and under complicated. are we in danger of over detailing? My cyclorama backdrop is rubbish but it worked for the client and his brief. In bw with a blur it worked.

those paintings worked because of the quality of the film - now, most everything is shot digitally, so - yes, you have to be more specific and paint more details.

If you want me to spend another hour on it I could do, but that hour would have been a waste of time. Some mattes are on screen for seconds. Audiences are not going to pick out the finest details in 2 seconds. There is a lot of pyschology involved with placing a image on screen. everybody knows the shark in jaws is rubber, they still scream. A matte is to serve one purpose to reinforce the suspension of disbelief.

i'd rather you not spend anymore time on this but get back to the basics of matte painting, like perspective, composition, and value. adding photography is the absolute last step in matte painting.

If this was to be on screen as a HD element for a minute, I would be pixel perfect building models referencing to death and three weeks later produced the finished article. Yes it is a fine art ILM have been known to paint injokes into there mattes as they know full well that the audience is too stupid to spot them.

they don't have to be pixel perfect, but the values and perspective have to be right. always. no matter how long it's onscreen. and the audience wasn't stupid - the mattes simply weren't onscreen long enough for the injokes to be seen.

Are you into mattes to show off artistic method ie photorealism or are you here to con the audience. We have two schools here One as a fine art the other to provide a service to the entertainment industry to con the audience. It takes time to paint a matte and in the industry time is money.

yes, and yes. matte paintings need to fool the audience because of their realism. if something's out of perspective, or if the lighting is off - the audience won't be 'conned', to use your term.

Yes I will continue with this forum as I was close to jacking it in, Yes I will learn to paint but give me space and time. this mountain job has just paid for the roof over my head and for food to be placed on the table. You cannot wear a matte painting nor eat it.

if you want space, then work on the basics for a while on your own, then post some simple mattes, and work your way up - people that post comments, for the most part, are trying to help you.


Oh the quote about my inexperienced client, my client has been in thentertainment industry for thirty years with lots of heavy weight awards on there shelf.

it doesn't change the fact that the matte was not of professional quality - don't confuse a clients reaction (postive or negative) with the quality of the piece.

[Rockhoppermedia]

thank you Ndog for your practical reasoning,

DZL I have looked at your views on my last post, I have to disagree with some of the comments but I understand your point of view. However I will act on the comments you have made as you are right in what you say. This job happened on a late friday night my client was let down at the last minute. I rushed him in and worked very hard to do the shot, digital workflow and painting. Did a test comp he was extremely happy with the test I mentioned it could be tidied up the answer was no it has to go to the PR agency immediately.

In hindsight I could have done better, the hard part is saying no to a client i cannot release it and in future i will be tactful.

thanks for the comments guys, I didnt intentionally intend this to end up in debate

Rich.

[RiKToR]

Well I just popped it in to BW filter and gaussian and it will sell depending on the comped picture. Quite frankly if the client is willing to ask for shite time then you get shite work, especially assuming the most photographers aren't matte painters and have only some ability photo collage, but no real painting. I would like to see the final shot when you can post it... but for me the money in your pocket decides it, and as long as you know you cant pop it in a demo reel to become the next greatest matte artist... or not yet :)

[Rockhoppermedia]

Cheers Cliff,

It is a dreadful comp, i have contacted the PR agency and I am waiting permission for release,

Thanks for trying it out in the brief that i was given, it is nice when someone listens to you. As for sticking it in my portfolio I dont think so. My portfolio is decidely empty at the moment and I dont think ILM, PDI, the mill etc..... are knocking at my door at the moment. If you are interested in knocking at my door ILM, PDI , the mill it is the badly painted door LOL

Oh by the way how is your siggraph demo reel coming on?


Thanks for the support Cliff

Rich

[RiKToR]

Its comming along, Im doing an argueous 3d move right now that is consuming my time since as of writing this I have 11 days 14 hours and 8 minutes till I have to be driving to San Diego... hopefully it will be done on time and I will post it both here and mattepainting.org at least by the second day of the conference.

[Rockhoppermedia]

Well you get stuck in mate, I am looking forward to seeing how it turns out.


rich

[MatthewNovak]

Ya, i dont think its good either, but dont b sad. Keep trying and btw the image u picked to do a matte is not a good choice its very tough to add stuff up close, try doing smaller stuff. Maybe get a city or a house, and add cracks and broken wood to it or change the ground from grass to lava, or something like that, dont start off with huge canvases with really big objects were you can pick out mistakes/flaws instantly.

* Edit: sorry didnt read that it was for a job. Nevertheless youll get better. Also sometimes try importing rocks or photos on a layer and then set the blending mode to dodge, color burn and then draw in areas with a round brush with 20% opacity. This usually helps me do smooth blending and intricate combinations of different textures. Good Luck =)

[nickmarshallvfx]

It can really bring you down to earth with a bang when you are on a high after your first paid gig, and then people pick your work to pieces.
I think having a thick skin is like a prerequisite to matte painting because there is so much that can be criticised from your photo manipulation skills, to your artistic skills, to your imagination etc, and it can be difficult. However, it would be stupid for you to pack it in! You are a nice guy and a keep artist, so you will get there even if it is a long road!

Ok, the matte may not be of the best quality in the world, but it did the job, so you can put it behind you now. I would suggest going back to basics now, maybe look at Dylan Coles dvds, they are a great place to start. Once you get it all down you can move on to more challenging stuff.

By the way, close up snow shots can be notoriously difficult because snow essentially doesn't have a colour, so you really have to know your stuff! Congrats on getting the job done.

Nick

[Rockhoppermedia]

Cheers Nick,


A bit of support from you a real friend has gone a long way. I have put this job behind me. I work in the photo industry and it is notoriously unsentimental and hard. A thick skin in this job is a neccessity methinks.

I have bought the invisible art and also matte painting from ballistic. My touching up skills for commercial work has improved. It also makes me laugh that i do a painting with a pagoda in it and oriental mountainscape which gets ripped to pieces. Then a couple of weeks later the same people who ripped into me are producing oriental work, strange.

However I will keep cracking on if it takes me two months or two years I will be a matte painter. Maybe some day one of these people who have given me a hard time will pretend to have done something for my success. Dont get me wrong I am not in it for the fame, I am in it for the love of the art.

Cheers

Rich.

[superfly18]

To be honest, i really dont post that often...really at all anymore, idk why i guess i'm just still learning alot. However, what i've learned from being a part of art and critiques that come along with it, is that you can't ask for a critique and that when you get one, you "strongly" defend your piece. Now, i am by far not a matte pro, but in the future, if you post a piece of your work, dont be so quick to bite back everyone who is giving their own opinion...its just counter productive! I dont want to sound like an asshole, but I'm just trying to help you help yourself. You've got to learn to self-critique first, then you post your work on the forum...because it is assumed that at that point the artwork could use second opinions on it. So i think that as time goes by and you become more fluent in matte painting, give yourself a better chance to get better by not being so defensive on your work - posting it is already half the battle you've just got to be open about it now!!


As i've spent time working on my matte "skills", i've learned that practice, practice, practice is the biggest thing. You dont get better admiring past pieces of work! Anyways, I dont want to sound so harsh and cruel, but be more open about your artwork if you truly want to get better! Good athletes are coachable! Good luck mate, look forward to seeing your progress.

[CodeNothing]

I highly recomend the gnomon DVD's by dylan cole. He shows how to start a piece with simple block out rough paintings, and then you apply your photo ref on top.

which I think is the biggest problem everyone has starting out with environment work digitaly. You have access to photos and want to use them as soon as possible.

Dont let the photo controll the piece. Make the photo match your painting. I'd like to see simple blocked out compositions before you try to 'finish' anything. and doing dozens and hundreds of quick environment sketches will teach you a lot on how to make things work.


GOOD LUCK! keep that thick skin up. This is realy a good place to learn. a lot of people here willing to help.

[Rockhoppermedia]

I have learnt my lesson now, i have developed a thicker skin and i have a sketchbook by my side which has tons of doodles and sketches. The gnomon dvds will soon be on order and I have been working on another area of art which is developing colour composition and values. It is a steep learning curve,


thanks for the advice codenothing it is welcome here

Rich

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