Cloud city

[Suirebit]

www.sxc.hu (http://www.sxc.hu) .. :) you can find great stock there.

The first thing that pops in for me is the scale...the plane exit ramp is almost as wide as the whole complex...not to mention the plane itself...who looks like it exits a dwarven city :D

Then, there is a perspective issue between sky and complex (different perspectives)

Finally depth, both of field and compostional; sure, this is a sky scene you will say, but you can add some close clouds, interacting with the complex to add more compostional depth..:)

You also need more texture (everything looks too clean and artificial, break it down :) ) and lightning, deeper shadows, more contrast.

[Photoshopped]

Hi Suirebit,

Thanks for taking the time to reply, it is greatly appreciated.

#the plane exit ramp is almost as wide as the whole complex
Yeah, fair enough but its not suppost to be just a run way. If you look close you should see at the back
of the hangar various control towers and a hangar.
I have made the plane far to big and covered some detail there I think. Really the hangar is suppost to be a huge airport.


#Then, there is a perspective issue between sky and complex (different perspectives)
Yep, totally agree here. I missed this and hold my hands up high. I will correct.


# You also need more texture (everything looks too clean and artificial, break it down :) ) and lightning, deeper shadows, more contrast
I spent a long time studying reference city photographs set in the same or similar
lighting conditions and I didn't see anything that made me think there should be more texture. I did think about adding weather/exposure damage but after studying reference photos of similar buildings in the sun, I could not see any, so left it out.

I will increase the shadows and contrast as I also agree there should be more.

There are clouds already in front of the city but on a lot of monitors they are not really showing up at all. I will add more soon.


Thanks once again,

Jay

[Rockhoppermedia]

Lighting is spot on, I as part of my job have the fun oppurtunity to hang out of helicopters and take photos. One problem it is so easy to overexpose at that height the other thing is light is so clinical and fresh. You have captured it beautifully. i can see this as a CD cover for a band and i would seriously hawk this around the industry. Its fantasy and in fantasy there are no rules. I dont think it was a serious attempt to create a realistic earthbound matte. It is fresh and inspiring. I would have this on my wall rather than some LOTR or apocalyptic vision.

In fact being a bit sad i put on ELO Mr blue sky and it fits perfectly

Well done dude (though I am not a Matte painting god ......................yet)

Rich.

[Suirebit]

I'm just telling you how it looks to the viewer...there's no indication that the exit ramp is huge. And the whole complex looks too clean, like it's a plastic toy

You've studied buildings from photo refs but have you though why they look normal there? Because there's a tree, a road, a car, a crack around them. What you have there simply looks too clean and plastic-like...

[Suirebit]

Rich, with all due respect, matte painting is about realism...anything else...is another category :) It may be good as a design illustration but as a matte painting it has serious issues. Think of putting that into a movie...and the reaction of audience.

[Photoshopped]

Lighting is spot on, I as part of my job have the fun oppurtunity to hang out of helicopters and take photos. One problem it is so easy to overexpose at that height the other thing is light is so clinical and fresh. You have captured it beautifully. i can see this as a CD cover for a band and i would seriously hawk this around the industry. Its fantasy and in fantasy there are no rules. I dont think it was a serious attempt to create a realistic earthbound matte. It is fresh and inspiring. I would have this on my wall rather than some LOTR or apocalyptic vision.

In fact being a bit sad i put on ELO Mr blue sky and it fits perfectly

Well done dude (though I am not a Matte painting god ......................yet)

Rich.


Thank you so much, it makes me very happy to see that all the time I spent studying cities and the lighting direction for this compostion has paid off. I really appreciate you taking the time to comment and its good to get some positive feedback considering just how much time and effort I did actually put into researching this.

I am aware that there are still a lot of improvements to be made though. ;)

Take care and all the best,

Jason

[Photoshopped]

I'm just telling you how it looks to the viewer...there's no indication that the exit ramp is huge. And the whole complex looks too clean, like it's a plastic toy

You've studied buildings from photo refs but have you though why they look normal there? Because there's a tree, a road, a car, a crack around them. What you have there simply looks too clean and plastic-like...

Ok, without getting into the usual forums agruements here. With all respect, how would a tree grow at that altitude?

So many members talk about realism like your comment above, but easily miss mistakes of your own.
How would a tree grow at that altitude? Why would there be a road when there are no cars?
This is a cloud city, do you see roads on "cloud city" in Star Wars etc? No, there may be train tracks but they mainly live within the city as they would at that altitude.

Thinking about these things is what makes something realistic, and you clearly don't. These buildings are real, there were no cracks on them in real life so why would you put some on them here?

I have over 50 photos of cities and can't see a single crack in one tall building. I am sure some have some and there is evident weather damage on some, but you could just as easily say:

"anyone who lived in such a city should easily have technology to repair and prevent such damage too"

I thank you for your comments again and I will consider them all, but realism is in the eye of the beholder. Fact. Each persons idea of realistic is different.

[Rockhoppermedia]

One mans meat is another mans poison, yea you are right it does not work as a matte but as a composition it is fantastic.

Yes the aircraft would crash into the roof as it took off i think that is why it slopes downhill, (go tothe himalyas/Andes/ you will see lots of runways that are not level and actually slope quite severely down.

Yes it is too clean, there is no pollution at that height, water vapour is prevalent but oxygen is low so oxidisation is minimal.

Yes I would sharpen the image and play with the contrast and add a lot of specular relection and blooming

Yes i would add contrails to show movement of the structure

The big clue here is this is his third matte we have somebody who thinks outside of the box and I would not like to scare him off. I am still upset that JB never came back so i would like to temper my critiques because as you know I am a awful painter and have no right to upset someone. However I am one of the top photographers working for my organisation and aerial photography is my speciality.

Lots of respect mate

Rich

[Photoshopped]

Rich, with all due respect, matte painting is about realism...anything else...is another category :) It may be good as a design illustration but as a matte painting it has serious issues. Think of putting that into a movie...and the reaction of audience.

Once again, I am obviosuly no professional Matte painter but compared to some compositions I have seen I think this is very good. As I am also mad about films I can honestly say I have seen far worse in many big budget titles too.(that is NOT meant in any big headed way) They pull it off because, the audience are not sat at the edge of there seat studying every single litttle detail like we are.

EDIT

I know what your saying about cracks makes sense, but maybe not in this enviroment. Do you
honestly think that if this was featured in a film for the couple of seconds it would get, people would notice if it had weather damage or cracks? My buildings are too small for that detail to show anyway.
Do you think they would say, that film was great but the city had no cracks in it? No, they wouldn't even get time to notice.

[Photoshopped]

The big clue here is this is his third matte we have somebody who thinks outside of the box and I would not like to scare him off. I am still upset that JB never came back so i would like to temper my critiques because as you know I am a awful painter and have no right to upset someone. However I am one of the top photographers working for my organisation and aerial photography is my speciality.

Lots of respect mate

Rich

Once again, I appreciate your kind comments. However, if you do feel there are more negative things to be said then please feel free to say. I don't mind fair crit at all. Thats why I post, not to just to get a pat on the back. However, I am always suprised by some fo the feedback people get. I have see some truly awful Mattes or compositions that have had fantastic reviews and that almost everyone has liked?

I just get frustrated when I spend every waking hour possible creating the best composition I can, to get adverage or negative feedback.

Rich, all the best and thanks,

Jay

[Suirebit]

Ok, without getting into the usual forums agruements here. With all respect, how would a tree grow at that altitude?

So many members talk about realism like your comment above, but easily miss mistakes of your own.
How would a tree grow at that altitude? Why would there be a road when there are no cars?
This is a cloud city, do you see roads on "cloud city" in Star Wars etc? No, there may be train tracks but they mainly live within the city as they would at that altitude.

Thinking about these things is what makes something realistic, and you clearly don't. These buildings are real, there were no cracks on them in real life so why would you put some on them here?

I have over 50 photos of cities and can't see a single crack in one tall building. I am sure some have some and there is evident weather damage on some, but you could just as easily say:

"anyone who lived in such a city should easily have technology to repair and prevent such damage too"

I thank you for your comments again and I will consider them all, but realism is in the eye of the beholder. Fact. Each persons idea of realistic is different.


I haven't told you to put a tree in there, I explained you why so clean buildings work on the ground ;) Of course, it would be ridiculous to see trees and cars in your image.

What I've told you in order to compensate this lack is to add more texture to the buildings. Take it or leave it...we're not here to argue but to help

EDIT: Composition isn't everything that matters in an image. You will get negative feedback when something's obviously wrong, not because people are mean or try to put you down. After all you asked for help and critique...and you shouldn't be frustrated by it...you're at begining, everyone was a beginer and this is how we learn...

I don't mind when someone tells me 'that is awfully wrong'; I thank him and try to correct it if it's right, or thank him for giving his opinion if not...because noone is payed to sit here and help.

If you wanted praise or to see " wow great stuff, haven't seen anything more amazing", you got the wrong place :)

[Suirebit]

PS: If a certain element works in a certain evironment and it's a stock photo, it doesn't mean that it will magically be right everywhere...this is a common mistake made by beginers.
The very fact that it's photo doesn't guarantee realism in your imagined scene.

[Photoshopped]

Its obviously pointless here. If you read any of my posts correctly then you may actually figure out that I am one of the most fair people you will meet.

You obviously were looking to clear some things off your chest so I hope u feel better m8.
I am always very grateful to anyone who takes the time to reply to my topics but unlike most people I don't just mindlessly agree and see more experienced members as Gods! Yeah, I respect experienced members as everyone should. But that does not mean you are always right, so get off your high horse man.

Its members like you that easily put people off. I have said all along I agree with some of your comments but then I also don't agree with some of the others. Does that make me cocky, over confident or just eagre to learn more?

If someone says there is something wrong with my work I don't agree with, I like to question it to find out more. Thats how I learn.


Example feedback about my work:
The city needs to have cracks, dents and weather damage

Most people response:
Ok I will go and do it (wihtout understanding why they are doing it)

My response:
Why should it have cracks, dents and weather damage. I want to know why. THATS HOW I LEARN. I don't mindlessy agree with all comments ok. Its not meant to offend anyone or you.
I hate the mentality on forums from members like you. Anyone who doesn't instantly agree is arogant, foolish, wrong, cocky and outcast.

As for your comment
"I don't mind when someone tells me 'that is awfully wrong'; I thank him and try to correct it if it's right, or thank him for giving his opinion if not...because noone is payed to sit here and help."

Whats that all about? I have thanked you for every comment and am always grateful??? I don't mind negative comments as explained above, its how you explain them and your mentality behind it.

I agreed with most of your comments about my work or did you miss that?

Find any post I have replied to where I have not been extremely grateful for feedback or polite with my feedback.


A BIG APOLOGY TO EVERYONE ELSE READING THIS AS ITS NOW GONE OFF SUBJECT.

[Suirebit]

Calm down, take a breath :) You really sound like you endured a lot of negative critique in the past. I am very sorry the topic got into this direction, because now it will surely won't help you...I've only tried to give you some constructive critique; Next time I'll try to sweeten it and don't be so harsh.
And no, I'm a beginner myself compared to others; if there is an active 'god' around here, it's James. And he'll probably give you the best critique if he has time.

[JJASSO]

ok guys let's calm down right away or this thread will be closed, please don't be rude answering each others, this forum is made to critic and to show your work ,both things are allowed as well as somebody's point of view about it .

I'm going to critic and give advices as I do with everyone in this forum
ok Photoshopped : well I think the general idea is really cool, but I see some issues that can be improved , first of all , let's say this is a stablishing shot for a movie , then visual composition is everything , it gives you depth, scale mood and most important focal point.
perspective is off in most of the elements
scale in some buildings are not matching other buildings and overall scale and dimension,
I think that when you do such a design and if it were going to be in a movie the vfx supervisor would tell
first think as if this really exists, how would it look? how would it work?? ( about the airport you have there ,I think it would not work talking about eginnering )
the airplanes would not correspond to the age or design of the city ( technology speaking )
this is what I think so far, looking forward to see improvements

[Photoshopped]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply and give advise, even Suirebit. I truly appreciate any advise (negative or positive) that will help improve my work. Just to clify again though. Suirebit, I agreed with most of the comments you made. I was not annoyed with any negative comments you made in any way, just your general attitude. I respect your work and think you are obviously very skilled too.

jamesvfx, thanks for talso taking the time to reply and give helpful advise. I am very sorry this topic has got out of hand too. Once again I agree with most of the comments you made too.

# perspective is off in most of the elements ?
Please can you show or describe to me which areas you are refereing to (The airport and hangar I am aware of and will correct) so I can better understand this as I used the same perspective lines for most of the elements!

#scale in some buildings are not matching other buildings and overall scale and dimension.
Again, I don't really undertand this comment so a better explanation would be more helpful.

#first think as if this really exists, how would it look? how would it work?? ( about the airport you have there ,I think it would not work talking about eginneering )
This bit slightly frustrated me as I spent a great deal of time trying to make this more realistic than similar compositions in the past. Thats why the base is made from metal and not rocks as in other similar Mattes I have seen. Thats why I have got buildings all similar colour (because its set in the clouds and would want to blend in with natural surroundings).

# the airplanes would not correspond to the age or design of the city ( technology speaking )
Again, I can fully understand where u r coming from but as the buildings themselves are not really that futuristic (as most are real buildings or made from parts of them) then I didn't want to make the aircraft either. Sort of Sky captain sort fo thing. There could easily be fault with my logik on this one though ;)
Hopefully this comment was aimied mainly at the Airport section of my compostion which I AGREE needs MAJOR re-working to make it look as it should. At the moment it does not show the scale and scope it is suppost to as a busy airport of the city.

Anyways, thanks for taking thew time to leave feedback. I will honestly consider all comments as see if I can make much more improvements. Please remember though, this is only my 3rd EVER composition. I think this was seriously forgotten here.


Kind regards,

Jason

[bechira]

Hi Photoshopped
I think as your 3rd comp it is quite good.
I like the look and feel of the comp and I think that you managed to push a very nice start for a good mattepainting.
Olso, the biggest problem in this concept seem to be the scale of things. U must decide how big your city will be. Take a look from a window and see how big a city can be. The scale is given by some strategic placed elements.
Also you have some airplanes near the city. you must decide how har are them from the viewer and how big are they related to the city or one building.
I think the best way to clear your distances is to draw a top projection of the scene and see from above the distances between them. This is the easy way to figue out the distances and scales.
After all the scales and distances are clear, u can make the atmosphere.


Hope that helps a little. Keep it up man. ;)

[Photoshopped]

Hi bechira,

Thanks for also taking time to post useful and fair feedback on my composition, it is always appreciated. I realise there are a lot of things that need imporvement here and will be carefuly studying all the feedback given by everyone to make those improvements in the next couple of week. I think the methods you suggested for correcting the scale problems of the plane in front of the city were also very good, thanks. It makes sense.

I really messed up with the whole Airport thing and hold my hands up to that. Although still no excuse, I foolishly rushed the final stage of the composition (the airport and hangar areas) in order to finish due to severe time restrictions on my project.

Thanks once again to everyone and hopefully I will post an update in a couple of weeks when I finally get time to go over all my Matte and make improvements.

Jay

[Orunitia]

hey... i like the idea, i do agree though that the airport entrance is tooo big for what it looks like: a 1 plane hangar lol.. to make it look like more of an airport.. you should add little robots like star wars flyin around in there fixen stuff.. or maybe some jets lined up on the left and right side of the runway.. without that it really does look like just a massssssssiiiivvveeee 1 plane hangar. just my 2 cents.. l8ter

[Photoshopped]

Hey Orunitia, thanks for taking the time to add some feedback. I TOTALLY agree with your comments and can't wait to re-work the whole hangar area now. Unfortunately, it was a rushed decission to finish on time really. No excuse I know, but I am sure everyone can appreciate that you can only spend so long on a piece of work before calling it a day to start on the next.

I hope to post a revised version of the file with major airport/hangar updates in the next 2 weeks.

Thanks to all who took the time to help me out with you feedback.

Jay

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