blender interface - gui ok - mousing not

[Yecire]

You do realize that this behavior can be changed in the User Preferences, right?




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[jinchoungforever]

ooooh. no, i didn't. thanks for the heads up.

but in regards to customizable uis, i'm still of the opinion that the default one should be as close to ideal as possible. if nothing else, self consistency is key.

but cool, thanks for the info.

update: just edited the controls. it allows me to make the interface just like i envisioned! great. i was afraid that switching the left and right buttons for select would universally invert them but happily this is not the case.

it is unfortunate though that with the left mouse button as the selector, it is not possible to use the "emulate 3 button" option which mimics the lightwave control scheme that i'm used to. anyhoo, thanks and kudos to the developers for at least allowing smart user configurability.

jin

[carnageRPM]

with all offence i dont think noobs should be leaving comments on blenders interface which they have not yet learned or have any concept about.. all they do is add to that huge out of control snow ball that seems to be getting bigger every day about blenders interface. Then some other noob sees the post then goes to another post and says some thing like "Blenders gui is out of wack" And yes Blender is very "nonstandard" thats the point of blender its not just another 3D app thats made to fall in with the rest.

[FreakyDude]

With no offence carnage, while your point is valid, it's quite rude to call people noobs, if anything he's a newbie in blender. He wasn't insulting people or anything. The name rang a bell so i searched a bit, he's apparently a pro with other apps like maya. Maybe he shouldn't claim so boldly that his is the only way, but that doesn't mean he's either a noob or wrong with his point.

jinchoung:
Calling something inconsistent that has worked and is working still for tons of people doesn't exactly open the door for an enthusiastic conversation. If you have an idea as how to improve something, then bring it as an idea, instead of a right/wrong claim.

I do think you're wrong with your point though. There's no need to make it default. I for one actually prefer blenders selection methods nowadays. Less likely to select stuff you don't want once you get the hang of it. You just need to switch a button in your head which will allow you to try it.

And since the whole option is allready changeable in the user prefs, let's leave it at that.

peace people.

[StefanA]

Hello,

This is a "issue" on which I'm somewhat torn in. I've been doing 3d now as a proffession for about 10+ years. And while I love playing around with blender (I'm just starting to use it more and more) I too feel that many things are so different from all other applications that it's becoming a big struggle. The UI is one thing, but you can get past that rather quickly. But what really bothers me in my workflow is

1.) 3D-Mouse-thiny-where-you-create-your-next-object thing
2.) left mouse selection (if you switch you have to instead rotate your view with the leftmouse)
3.) grab,rotate,scale is by default is that damn blender mode thing and you have to break your fingers to get the "gizmos" so that you can grab them.
4.) proportional mode don't work well with a tablet, since you need the mouse wheel to change the radius.
5.) rotation mode is automaticly in Eular mode, some of us (animators) do like that "gimbal" mode since you can see what the axises are doing and it gives you a pointer what what curve you are animating.
6.) you should be able to do drag 'n drop parenting in the Outliner

So, I would like to see a new navigation mode in blender, or at least that we will get the possibility to chose or modify it. Don't change the GUI though, I think it works (though it has room for improvments like saving layouts) it's more of the other odd things.

And because Blender is so different to other applications I rarely recommend Blender to students who are new to 3D, and it's a shame really. I would like to recommend it, but that would most likely limit their chances to go off in the world and get a job. While we do train people from other softwares, Blender would be so different that it would take a long time for the user to get up and running in production.

Anyhooooooooooooooooo.... I still recommend Blender to my co-workers though. And we are using it for certain things. I have high hopes for it, and will be supporting it as much as I can.

regards
stefan andersson

[jinchoungforever]

well i certainly am a noob to blender. and carnage, rest assured, all due offense has been taken. and i don't believe your point is valid at all.

noob or not, the issue is - is my argument valid or not? is it not inconsistent to select with the right and at the same time use the left to confirm operations so that a transform "sticks"? noob or not, i think my point is valid.

lots of people can get used to all kinds of uis. that is not a reflection of the excellence of the interface.

and if someone does have experience with lots of other interfaces and apps and they come, green, to a new interface, whether they are a noob to that interface or not, they can tell you with some degree of accuracy whether it is "nonstandard" and even whether it is harmonious and consistent with the apps internal logic.

i guess instead of having to provide my signed and sealed certification to discuss blender at all, i would have expected a discussion about the points i bring up and their validity or lack thereof.

my mistake.

jin

[FreakyDude]

I agree with point 4 5 and 6.
allthough layouts may not be saved as template afaik, they are saved with the files.

you can lock your axis with mmb, or a pen button 3 for example. I hardly use the "gizmo's" anymore. alt space lets you choose different axis orientations, and ctrl space lets you choose different gizmo types.
what I'd like to see in blender: the constraints when moving/scaling/rotating to be defined by the axis orientation (the alt-space thing) so you can snap the movement/scale/rotate to for instance the axis aligning with an objects normals orientation.

While you may have a point with your " limit their chances" argument, my current job I got because of the stuff I made in blender, not max or any other app. I use blender at work now.

[carnageRPM]

look short and simple the interface will not change as said in the last 50 post about the gui. learn it and live and with it cause thats all you can do. If you got a question ask but dont start puttin ya to sences about how to make it better it wont happen.
one more gui post and for sure i will flip.

[Yecire]

one more gui post and for sure i will flip.

Sounds like you already have.

Please try to calm down. :rolleyes:




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[VirgilioVasconcelos]

Hi, jinchoungforever.

I'm really sorry for the rude responses you got from carnageRPM. I understand why he got angry, but I really don't agree with the way he has handled it.

Normally (specially here, in an app-agnostic forum) we read frequently a lot of complaints about Blender's non-standard UI. Your first post actually praises (if I understood well) the elegance and consistence in Blender's UI, and I think that's a very good thing - specially when told by someone with good experience with other apps.

I do think you made a good point on the mouse right click. When I started using Blender, I felt this a bit weird too. Now I'm used to it - my fingers are trained for that, but I agree that can be a bit confusing for newcomers.

I'm expecting a lot for the upcoming Blender 2.5: it will probably bring more possibilities of customisation for mouse and keystrokes, making it easier for new users. The Blender Wiki has some feature requests on the UI, and maybe someone has pointed that out already: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Requests/UserInterfaceFeatures

Cheers

[fktt]

Sounds like you already have.

Please try to calm down. :rolleyes:

+1

seems to be the one of the only one's(thogether with virgilio) with any sense in this thread, people, please calm down... :)

Hi, jinchoungforever.

I'm really sorry for the rude responses you got from carnageRPM. I understand why he got angry, but I really don't agree with the way he has handled it.

Normally (specially here, in an app-agnostic forum) we read frequently a lot of complaints about Blender's non-standard UI. Your first post actually praises (if I understood well)( editbyfelix:i think you did) the elegance and consistence in Blender's UI, and I think that's a very good thing - specially when told by someone with good experience with other apps.

I do think you made a good point on the mouse right click( editbyfelix: i like the default in blender, but meh, that doesn't mater, as it is just me). When I started using Blender, I felt this a bit weird too. Now I'm used to it - my fingers are trained for that, but I agree that can be a bit confusing for newcomers(i got in handy with blender right away, after only watching one video tut, and i love it :), but againt thats just me :p).

I'm expecting a lot for the upcoming Blender 2.5: it will probably bring more possibilities of customisation for mouse and keystrokes( editbyfelix: i its all about the ui code sepparation from the other parts of the code, to make it easier to customise :)), making it easier for new users. The Blender Wiki has some feature requests on the UI, and maybe someone has pointed that out already: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Requests/UserInterfaceFeatures

Cheers imo, the default in blender is fine, i mean how else are the people like me(alternative) to find out bout the alternative UI, though i agree it wount hurt to have more abilities to customise.. :)

[AstralPancakes]

FWIW I'm actually pretty amazed at how quickly I got used to the Blender interface. When I started out a month or so back it felt pretty bleak, but by now I'm pretty much in agreement with all the grizzled old "don't change a thing" people in most of the discussions.

I don't think the "make it easier for the n00bs" argument holds up too well generally -- getting past the interface of whatever program you're using is the easy part of learning 3D. :) There's a few strange quirks that confuse you at first, with the weird default options being the biggest ones: having left-click select and turntable rotation be the defaults would go a long way I think. Changing them is a simple matter, but when you first open Blender the preferences are a located in a pretty non-obvious place. The next thing you run into it probably not being able to click and drag to border select -- pressing B becomes second nature pretty quickly, but it's still a bit silly. :)

The things that annoy me at this point are mostly the lack of reconfigurable keyboard shortcuts (well, actually, I've gotten pretty used to pressing Ctrl-W to save, but they really should be there), the way right click highlights but doesn't select in file selectors and the fact that if you set your mouse selection to left it swaps the buttons used for painting as well, so you can't use your tablet anymore.

Here's hoping for 2.5. :)

[lukasdesign]

with the help of Wartmann's great blender book...btw where he ended up?

the GUI of blender is unique no doubt, but so is XSI, Houdini(!), lightwave, and Maya (the most copied out there so it became a kind of standard...). But is has so many advantages: a clear, never clustered by floating windows screen layout. U can scale(!) and move around all the button windows! u can safe as many layouts as u want etc...shure things are becoming mmore and more complex: more features need more buttons, but every program has this problem.

but for shure it has also it's downsides: the outliner already mentioned is just a prototype so far, I would like to have something like the schematic view in lightwave. the file browser is hard to use for windows user. I would love to have an intelligent online help like in rhino: use a command, hit f1 and u will see what it does!

but so far Blender is improving with every major release! and while it is a community driven project there's always a chance that our comments are gonna be reality!

[toontje]

Slightly off topic...
You know what's funny? I've noticed that we as the Blender community spend a lot of effort courting users of other apps to try Blender, and when they drop by, they get their skulls smashed in.


The strength and weakness of Blender is their developers. They are very dedicated individuals that made Blender what it is today. But the downside is, some parts of Blender could end up neglected, i.e. the nurbs system is just outdated. I wonder if it is seriously used. Even though Nurbana code has been integrated with the first Google SOC, nothing has did come out of it. The outliner for example, I have this feeling it started out as a 'fun' project, and it got a long way since then. But indeed, one of the most important things that is lacking here is the drag and drop functionality for parenting relationships.

The developers seems to work on projects they think is cool, which is cool by the way. I mean, hey, suprise me with each release of Blender. And Ton (a.k.a Blender foundation) is working steadily on what most concerns Blender in relationship to industry standards I think. That is evident in the render engine refactor, the animation refactor, the up and coming UI refactor and much more.


I think that JinChoungForever has a valid point, and it is a fundemental one. I wonder how far the refactoring is allow to go without deviating too much from the Blender workflow paradigm?

just my 2 cents.

[carnageRPM]

i would like to thank every one of you who commented on the gui. All i see is a wall of text about blenders interface. I cant find any info in this post that has been helpfull to any one except this " You do realize that this behavior can be changed in the User Preferences, right?" once again another useless gui post about blender. Thank you for proving my point, and good bye.

[fktt]

nah, i dont thing its absolutly useless, theres bound to be something positive about this thread.. though what, we are about to find out in the future ;)

[FreakyDude]

i would like to thank every one of you who commented on the gui. All i see is a wall of text about blenders interface. I cant find any info in this post that has been helpfull to any one except this " You do realize that this behavior can be changed in the User Preferences, right?" once again another useless gui post about blender. Thank you for proving my point, and good bye.

then maybe you should look harder. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to read it dude. It's not like you are contributing valuable information here now are you? So far you've made three posts which were nothing more than either offensive or insulting.

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