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RobertoOrtiz
06-26-2007, 05:42 PM
Hey guys,
I am VERY proud of the entries we have been getting for the current challege.
And to keep the memntum we got going I want to start discussing early the topic of the next challenge.

Ok I am leaning to do:

Another 30 day 30 models
Animals in Motion
Or do a JOINT challenge with the FXWars folks.
What do you guys think?
-R

Boone
06-26-2007, 06:38 PM
model our work stations?:deal:

quasiagent1
06-26-2007, 06:45 PM
Well, because of my time constraints (job hunting is all-consuming most days), I don't see myself being able to do a 30 models in 30 days challenge, though I like the concept. I personally like the idea of animals in motion the best.

John-S
06-26-2007, 07:08 PM
if I can manage to get any time it will be for the animales in motion one.

I have a hard time with 1 model in 30 days : (

michaelshippy
06-26-2007, 10:22 PM
I'll cast my vote for animals in motion. I saw this discussed in another thread and thought it was a very cool idea, and something that hasn't been done in a while (if ever?) in a challenge.

Typeboy
06-26-2007, 10:24 PM
I too would have a tough time modeling 30 things in 30 days, as my thread shows, I'm having a tough time doing 1 character in more than 30 days. Animals in motion would be prefferred, but a thought came to mind to do somthing "transformers" since the movie is coming out AND I'm sure theres a lot of fans, plus it leaves it open to do many interpretations -cartoon, comic, toys or one of the movies.
Or this thought just occurred to me, I love those stikfas action figures (Stikfas Website (http://www.stikfas.com/products.html)) I think it would be fun to model a few and a dioramam scene modeled in the spirit of the stikfas design and then place them in a scene from a movie and people could judge how well they captured the lighting, layout and spirit of the film. Well, just a thought.

octopus7
06-26-2007, 10:36 PM
mmm animals in motion sounds ok. But can they be cybernetic or robotic? as I can't organic model to save my life!

John-S
06-26-2007, 10:53 PM
a robotic wolf in motion sounds :cool:

I'm the same way but in reverse. I can't seem to model things that aren't organic : (

This challenge was great because both ways were allowable and some tried a little bit of each combined if they had time...

AtomAndBrad
06-26-2007, 11:44 PM
Given that A) I've never participated in any of these challenges, B) I'm a pretty new member to the forums, but have been a lurker for quite some time, and C) I'm purely a beginner modeler and probably wouldn't even attempt the challenge regardless of the category, you may feel free to not really hold my opinion in high regard :P

But in any event, I'd say steer clear of having a theme based on a specific series/universe (somebody mentioned Transformers), since that's what this current challenge is. It seems like having a broader theme would result in a much more freely creative outcome.

And while personally I like the 30 models in 30 days challenge (like watching, that is), I can understand people's dilemmas with it. I know it would be FAR too much for me. And I also do like Animals In Motion, but maybe give it the caveat that it doesn't HAVE to be an organic being (meaning, a robotic animal could be acceptable).

Either way, I will be looking forward to seeing the models as they get churned out :)

Firerbert
06-27-2007, 01:38 AM
Alright, here it goes...........

30 models in 30 days: I think the challenge would receive more attention if it were to create a "scene" with 30 models and it were more regulated. For example, create an interior with 30 required models that would vary the range of difficulty to complete the challenge in 30 days. This I would find more plausable than just 30 random models in 30 hectic days because it seems to be more goal oriented. It wouldn't have to be an interior, but it was just the first thing that popped into my head. This would work best if it was a non-textured, presentation only lit scene.


Animals in Motion: This challenge idea has already received thunderous applause. The idea is great and there would be some totally awesome entries. Harkening back to the textured -vs- non-textured, it should deffinetley be clay rendered for the very purpose of the challenge. In regards to the comments made earlier about organic -vs- inorganic, there could be some very, very interesting outcomes from this. There would be detailed entries from both sides and it would seriously widen the award reception and also trigger some newcomers to the forum. I can see how some people are challenged in certain areas from organic modeling to inorganic modeling, but don't I think it should be the basis for taking on the idea. Just to appease to others inabilities shouldn't be the reason for allowing inorganic entries. So I personally would challenge those that can't model organic models to try it anyway, because it is a very, very excellent skill to learn. Again, it is a smart idea to take it on and there would be some awesome creative entries.

Joint Challenge: FXWars has grown a lot from what I have seen. There have been some wicked cool entries from this challenge. By going this route, there could be some little short films on our hands! I'm totally for this idea and think it would be a great challenge for widening the spectrum of the community.

Animals in motion is what was highly discussed last time and I think we should follow through with it and possibly do the Joint Challenge for the next round.

-The End-

sapienz
06-27-2007, 04:49 AM
Or do a JOINT challenge with the FXWars folks.
What do you guys think?

What kinda Joint Challenge is this going to be?

Is it a collaboration challenge or is it a challenge with both the FX pple and the hardcore modellers work towards a short animation?

KrakenCMT
06-27-2007, 02:13 PM
Animals... There's no way I'll have the free time in the next month to do 30 models. I'm having a hard enough time right now with finding time for the current challenge.

RobertoOrtiz
06-27-2007, 06:37 PM
What kinda Joint Challenge is this going to be?

Is it a collaboration challenge or is it a challenge with both the FX pple and the hardcore modellers work towards a short animation?

Ok lets start with the topic...

Atlantis
:)

The idea would be to generate assets so the modellers in FX wars can cherry pick what they want.

-R

Cat-mad23
06-27-2007, 08:04 PM
Atlantis could be cool, lots of underwater wreckage, although it's already been done in a Matte Painting challenge recently.

RobertoOrtiz
06-27-2007, 08:18 PM
Atlantis could be cool, lots of underwater wreckage, although it's already been done in a Matte Painting challenge recently.

Yep, but that is another part of the forum ( :) )


-R

Boone
06-27-2007, 09:48 PM
Atlantis would be nice...:)

AtomAndBrad
06-27-2007, 10:30 PM
Or how about the inverse.. Instead of a sunken city (since it's already been done at least in some fashion in the community), a floating continent/city. Laputa :o People could come up with overall designs for how the continent floats (by huge balloons, huge propellers, huge wings, or some kind of magical device), then model buildings, ruins, inhabitants, etc. Just an idea :)

RobertoOrtiz
06-28-2007, 05:28 PM
Or how about the inverse.. Instead of a sunken city (since it's already been done at least in some fashion in the community), a floating continent/city. Laputa :o People could come up with overall designs for how the continent floats (by huge balloons, huge propellers, huge wings, or some kind of magical device), then model buildings, ruins, inhabitants, etc. Just an idea :)

I like your idea...

The concept I had is more of a conflict between the modern miliarty against Atlantis.
that way the mode list would be things ike:

Los Angeles Attack Sub
US Coast Guard Cutter
Research Vesser
Reseach min sub
Seahawk Helo
The thing is that the challenge would have an INSANE dateline of one month.
-R

MrJames
06-28-2007, 09:11 PM
Personally I reckon we should stick with the animals in motion topic. It already has had a positive reaction and is guarenteed to be hardcore. Atlantis is a nice idea but I could see it flopping and getting few entries... I personally was really looking forward to the animals challenge.

KrakenCMT
06-29-2007, 01:34 PM
Whether or not the next challenge is the animals in motion or not, it gave me a good idea for a model that I will continue with next anyway. I was hoping I could time it with the challenge, but if not, that's fine. I'm just ready to start on it now and don't want to wait for it to become the challenge.

quasiagent1
06-29-2007, 07:58 PM
I have to agree with Mr. James... there is just more appeal to the animals in motion concept. Overall though, I can always sit this one out and just admore other people's work.

fx81
06-29-2007, 08:07 PM
I think the most popular topic that could bring a LOT of participants would be:



Do whatever you want.

But, seriously i think you should do what ever you want :)

Firerbert
06-29-2007, 08:23 PM
I think the most popular topic that could bring a LOT of participants would be:




Do whatever you want.
But, seriously i think you should do what ever you want :)



Awwwww snap!

Boone
06-29-2007, 09:46 PM
Oh wait...what do ya think of this...

PIRATES VRS NINJAS!:twisted:

Airflow
06-30-2007, 12:50 AM
Now your talking... "We will shuriken them at starboard, We will shuriken them from port, We will shuriken them from the crows nest and wakzashi them fromthe Locker of Davey Jones!"

No seriously, I think an animal in motion is intersting, but more interesting is the chance to colaborate with the fx teams,
Somthing I have thought about but never actually began, is a photoreal robotic head, sitting on a bench in a lab, we model the head, they rig and animate it, and intergrate it into the footage provided for them...

octopus7
06-30-2007, 02:00 AM
Airflow, sounds like a cool idea, personally I reckon it would be cool to team up with the VFX guys. Between our modelling skills and their rigging and animation I reckon we'd get some truly kick arse stuff happening.
The atlantis stuff sounds interesting and it'd give me an excuse to build some naval vessels.

Boone
06-30-2007, 09:28 AM
Just another thought - how about a contest where the modeller has to model themself? But put a twist on it like they might be trapped in one of their own nightmares - having to run away in terror or something similar? Something to do with horror...:twisted:

AndreKling
06-30-2007, 10:44 AM
I would suggest to try stay away from concepts that are too open, i mean it would be a nightmare to judge something that is totally made up by the artist criativity. What i like in the Hardcore Modelling challenge is the restrictions, being it in the deadline and the subject, and i think that to have a real subject to compare with the 3d models is what makes this contests hardcore, being it a model from the star wars universe, or a replica of david sculptute... but honestly i dont see how Atlantis can be used as reference ( unless in the rules depicts in details how atlantis should look like ), another problem with teaming up with the sfx ppl would be the time restriction, i think it would be much easier to team up with them or any other cgtalk forum ( the animation, lighting....) after the hardcore modelling hv finished, for example maybe the SFX ppl can start a contest with the star wars models that was created for this contest, or the animation ppl could animate the Rays models.
I think we should stick with the animal in motion for next comp.

RobertoOrtiz
06-30-2007, 09:00 PM
Ok animals in motion it is.


Ok I need suggestions for the types of entries.

-R

octopus7
07-01-2007, 10:23 PM
You could have a couple of different topics for the animals in motion challenge, here's a few suggestions.

1 - best mammal model - ie lions, tigers, elephants, dogs, cats etc.

2 - best aquatic animal - ie, whales, sharks, marlins, dolphins and other types of fish.

3 - Best bird in flight model - ie, eagles, crows, falcons etc.

And a sub category if possible.

4 - Best non-organic animal model - ie, cybernetic constructs, robotic versions of animals, etc.

Well there's my suggestions.

AtomAndBrad
07-02-2007, 03:56 AM
I'd definitely say to stay clear of anything like made up/mutated/evolved creatures if the intent of the challenge is to go for extreme realism as opposed to creativity (not that it was being considered. Just thought some people might want to venture that way). Though one potential idea if you didn't want to just do current animals would be modeling prehistoric animals (dinosaurs, mammoths, saber tooths, etc.) since all of those have a vast selection of anatomy references.

I'd also say amphibians and insects could be eligible. Would make for some very interesting models. Definitely looking forward to this challenge ^_^ Any idea on specific dates?

RobertoOrtiz
07-02-2007, 03:57 AM
I'd definitely say to stay clear of anything like made up/mutated/evolved creatures if the intent of the challenge is to go for extreme realism as opposed to creativity (not that it was being considered. Just thought some people might want to venture that way). Though one potential idea if you didn't want to just do current animals would be modeling prehistoric animals (dinosaurs, mammoths, saber tooths, etc.) since all of those have a vast selection of anatomy references.

I'd also say amphibians and insects could be eligible. Would make for some very interesting models. Definitely looking forward to this challenge ^_^ Any idea on specific dates?

It will be up in very soon. Give it about 3 weeks.


-R

Are3D
07-12-2007, 03:16 AM
Animals in Motion category ideas.





Best Mechanical Animal in Motion.


Most detailed/accurate Animal in Motion


Most exaggerated/cartoony Animal in Motion


Best overall Animal in Motion
I hope these are some good ideas for the contest.


-Robert

quasiagent1
07-12-2007, 03:56 AM
I had mentioned earlier a desire to do a prey v. predator scene... so I think one type of submission could be one of conflict or interaction, such as:

A predator chasing its prey,
Rams head-butting for dominance,
Smaller birds fighting off an eagle from their nest,
An elephant charging a lion, etc...

WyattHarris
07-12-2007, 02:39 PM
I had mentioned earlier a desire to do a prey v. predator scene... so I think one type of submission could be one of conflict or interaction, such as:


A predator chasing its prey,
Rams head-butting for dominance,
Smaller birds fighting off an eagle from their nest,
An elephant charging a lion, etc...


On that note,

"Best captured motion" would cover that I think or
"Best interaction between animals"
Most accurate/realistic... the usual suspects.

For inspiration if you haven't seen it yet Battle at Krugar. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM)

John-S
07-12-2007, 09:18 PM
I think the voting for the challenges should be a little more focased on the "hardcore modeling" personally.

IMO there is 2 total different skills involved in sculpting packages from per-poly (name made up...lol) packages. While both can show extreeme talent and be difficult I think they should be judged separately (or separately by categories). Part where this gets difficult is there are alot of mixed feelings on proper topology (tris, quads, ngons etc) and how it will hold up in animation. However, I don't really think this is going to cause a problem when voting. For instance...

Take neversong for example:
http://www.damascus.com.ne.kr/temp/hulk_WIP.htm
http://www.damascus.com.ne.kr/temp/hellboy.htm
(mainly looking at the wires...)

There is no doubt of some solid modeling skills here. Or even looking at mannymation's model. These models stand out as 5 star modeling skills (tris, quads or not) and it would be easy to rate them vs models that aren't of the same caliber.

Puting these models against base mesh>ZBrush or mudbox models though is where things get lame IMO. I'm sure both of these people will use ZBrush at some point on their models to add all the fine details but it shows an extreeme modeling talent to get the most details out of cutting into the mesh per-poly and keeping it clean at the same time. Plus its good for people to learn from.

Making base meshes for ZBrush is a piece of cake. Sculpting is another story that also shows alot of talent, but its a different kind of talent just like Hard Surface modeling is vs organics.

I'm sure it wouldn't be no where near as hard and long of process for song and manny to zbrush these models in the first place but is that showing off your actual modeling skills vs sculpting? The normal modeling skills are surely important to places like ILM hiring etc aren't they? Or is it just good sculpts that they are looking for?

Anyways, my idea of catigories would be to ditch things like "epic" and things like that and focus more strictly on the modeling. I like the scenes that go along with the models and thats good for "overall" entrees but the rest should be based on the modeling or sculpting in seperate catigories IMO. So things like:

Best Sculpting
Best Poly Modeling
Best Hard Surface Modeling (if applicable with the challenge)
Most Accurate Likeness
Most Creative
Best Overall (including textures, compositing etc)

This may also help to keep the focus on the modeling skills involved in the image instead of final poses etc. Especially since this challenge is about "modeling".

Also, I wish you would correct the current voting thread by giving a definition of "in-organic" its screwing some of the runner up entrees when people vote for "organic" instead of "in-organic" because they don't seem to realize that "in-organic" is hard surfaces.

Keep up the good work Roberto :cool:

Either way you do it this is the only challenge in a CG Forum that seems to actually work and get awesome entrees.

Ps. Is there a reason why you don't have private voting setup for those that may want to vote that way?

fx81
07-12-2007, 10:35 PM
some good suggestions, but from what i have experienced is that the word "hardcore" is not used literally here. the word attracts people to participate more.
Roberto just likes the word "hardcore" :). it may not literally mean that the challenges are serious or something like that. the point here is to have as many participants as possible i think and so that people can have fun. there is a good side to this also, people can be very relaxed and do what ever they want.

btw, about pure poly modeling; to this day i have not seen one artist who is really good in sculpting whithout any good knowledge of poly modeling. i might be wrong but i havent seen any yet.

John-S
07-12-2007, 10:54 PM
Wow, I really like your portfolio fx81 thats awesome stuff :cool:

The challenges would still be fun and have just as many participants because they are just categories.

If someone is great at sculpting but doesn't make a very complex base mesh they will get rated great for sculpting only.

If somebody does a great complex poly mesh but doesn't sculpt then it will only get rated great for poly.

If somebody does a complex polygon model and then sculpts it beyond that for finer details then they could win in both categories.

It all evens out and doesn't take away from the fun of things anymore then the "in-organic" category did to this challenge. Just made it so people would have to try harder in more categories if they want to win more categories.

Airflow
07-13-2007, 12:26 AM
Food for thought, eh Roberto.
I mean someone like Jedi Juice puts in 3-4 weeks of hard graft modeling the difficult way, and the people show up, post one basemesh image and sculpt away and are still way ahead of him, though they may have spent 2 days, 1 to set up the base mesh and the other to sculpt their model.

To test how quickly you can do this sort of thing, I got hold of a base mesh, that would have taken me about half a day to build, and spent 2 hours sculpting it, now this is not an amazing mesh but it goes to show the unlevel playing feild. Imagine If I spent 3 days sculpting and enter on the same level as someone who has to build a city in ploys, who is the better artist, who should win?
Im not trying to go down a serious road, but guidlenes were explained at the begging of the challenge, whether they were met is questionable. I had at last count 140 save files for that one project and maybey 80 images showing its progress.

I know this is supposed to be fun but an important issue is being missed, the importance of knowing how to model.
I know a cgsociety member who recently got a creature modeling job in soho, and although alot of soho company's use mud/zbrush they want their artists to be able to model as quicks and as eficiently as they can in quads, because its a pain to animate displacment maps, and is quite memory intensive...

anyway here is the sculpt.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l295/airflowzero/KernelPanthaah.jpg

Boone
07-13-2007, 08:43 AM
I think what came into question on this challenge was that some entries didnt really "show their working out" as much as they could have.

It doesnt really matter what tool they use so long as they show genuine progression of their model. Just do a screengrab often and post it up. I mean, that is half the fun of the contest, no?

So I say use ZBrush, 3DS MAX, Blender, 3D Construction Kit, VU 3D, whatever - but please show more updates.

John-S
07-13-2007, 09:13 AM
Just to clarify my own post...

I'm not worried about anything that happened with this challenge at all. I think it went perfect and was very fair. Just the next challenge I think would improve by some new catigories...

Though I do agree that what airflow is saying is kind of along my lines of thinking for wanting new catigories.

Airflow
07-13-2007, 10:25 AM
And to clarify, I had no probelem execpt that there is not 2 categories, Modeling and Sculpting. It would kinda seperate the two disciplines and make a much more fair process for everyone. Also showing your process right through out the challenge would be the way to go, it make it more intersting than someone posting 3 images and thats their part done.

octopus7
07-13-2007, 12:40 PM
I agree with Airflow on this one. While Zbrush / Mudbox stuff looks awesome and still requires a lot of skill to master. It just isn't the same when a simplistic base mesh is created then put into a sculpting program, as opposed to someone who spends hours and hours manipulating poly's, vert's etc etc in a program like MAX or Maya to get a finished mesh happening. Maybe sculpting and modelling need to be put into seperate categories in future challenges. While I do have Mudbox I haven't really done anything with it as I haven't got the time to learn it so until then I will still be poly-modelling. I can see this turning into a debate!

RobertoOrtiz
07-13-2007, 01:32 PM
Best Sculpting
Best Poly Modeling
Best Hard Surface Modeling (if applicable with the challenge)
Most Accurate Likeness
Most Creative
Best Overall (including textures, compositing etc)


I like these cathegories for the next one.

And I agree with Boone. People will have to show a model progression , from poly to final model (Using either stills or an animated sequence).

So in order to keep it fair I will add this rule


All artists are REQUIRED to post AT LEAST 10 WIP images.
Of course and animated sequence (Done with Camtasia or a gif animation program) would be enought to cover this rule.

WyattHarris
07-13-2007, 03:06 PM
I've heard this debate before on the 2D side. Reference images vs. no reference, Steven Ståhlberg had to defend his use of reference images to create some of his work because someone said it was "like" cheating. In that regard I say use what is needed to finish the piece. You see that from Alex Ross as well.

To the current discussion, poly modeling is hard: its time consuming, its tedious and its hard to see your ultimate goal when your stuck down in the vertex details (my own experiece and opinion). I get frustrated working at the massive poly detail level because it doesn't feel like art it feels more like construction and thats not how I operate in the real world. Sculpt modeling is just the next extension in bringing the artist to the art. None of us would want to go back to the days of having to plot coordinates to get vertecis to appear on screen, I know I sure wouldn't. I was a master at DOS but I'm not going to eschew a GUI interface that does the same job only much easier because its not "pure."

Having said all of that I like the categories John-S proposed provided it doesn't create some kind of weird segregation between modelers and sculpters. We really should all be both. A model should not be looked down on because it was finished in 2 days just like a model should not be elevated because the artist spent a month on it.

Sorry, that was way too philosophical just to say I agree. :D

simjoy
07-13-2007, 03:32 PM
yes well .. ermm .. What Wyatt said about what John said..:)

I agree that there is a need to differentiate between the ZB/Mud sculpters and the poly modellers to a certain extent ..

Nice clearly defined categories.
I think "in-organic" has caused a bit of confusion, i doubt it will affect the result however

gaiXyn
07-13-2007, 03:45 PM
btw, about pure poly modeling; to this day i have not seen one artist who is really good in sculpting whithout any good knowledge of poly modeling. i might be wrong but i havent seen any yet.

I agree 110%!!....without any prior knowledge of ( what will probably soon be called ) old school modeling....be it poly2poly or boxModeling....<<without that, using MB or ZB wouldn't even matter......granted using such programs may give "quicker" results...howEver, it won't make the models "better"...in fact...without proper planning before sculpting, you can end up with a bigMess....so in closing, to me, it doesn't really matter much which program is being used, and you've probably heard this....but it's the artist using it that matters.


ltr-

KrakenCMT
07-13-2007, 04:24 PM
Yep. The program you use won't suddenly make you better. The tools may make you faster, but not better. That's the only difference here. And that's the only reason to have a seperate category for it. Same as having someone sculpting using a hammer and chisels and another using a power chisel with a Dremel.

The thing is, is that this only pertains to organic modeling. ZBrush and Mudbox both suck at inorganic modeling. It's possible to do it, but very difficult. That's why most of the time everyone brings in their models from another program. I wouldn't create an AT-AT in ZBrush. Much faster to do that in a poly modeler. So there are trade-offs.

But since this next challenge is more organic in nature, it makes sense to have a seperate category for polymodelers since ZB and MB users will have a speed advantage.

gaiXyn
07-13-2007, 04:35 PM
But since this next challenge is more organic in nature, it makes sense to have a seperate category for polymodelers since ZB and MB users will have a speed advantage.

exactly!!...that's the only real issue here....so what's the point in making two categories anyHow?....what are you guys worried about?....that the guy/gal next to you is producing faster upDates...or better ones??....I'm sure for many of you it's the latter, so then it's not the program. :)

and don't forget people, the challenges last a good month and a half, so really there's good enough time....not saying we all have time for the challenges, but...another point to make is these challenges are also about helping you to get better and having fun...maybe even make a few renderBuddies along the way....:thumbsup:

ltr-

Airflow
07-13-2007, 05:06 PM
I agree whith what you say, but still find it unfair to have say someone put all that and time, only to loose out to somone who does everything easier and faster. There is an issue. There should be seperate catergories, so polymodelers are up against poly modelers. Sculpters up against sculptors, and anyone between goes for the overall catergory.

Speed is a factor, alot of people didnt have the time to finish their entrys. Even with nearly two months.. Which is why I had to vote for the star destroyer... the sheer amouth of time and concentration... I thought my Gauntlets were bad, and its wasnt easy making them at all, I barely had time to get my model facing in the right direction due to clients bugging me at every turn.
Atleast I entered. John for instance, had he used mudbox or zbrush woulod have had probably finished his entry, but I still feel he put in a remarkable effort to model every wrinkle to the level that others would have merely painted... You cant just turn round to him and say, "Too bad, nice effort but your up against a model with 20 times the amount of wrinkles... You were not fast enough."
Effort must count for somthing.
If eveyone used only mudbox or zbrush3, then it would be a level palying feild, right now the polymodellers are handicapped by being put in with the much quicker and less restrictive sculpting.

John-S
07-13-2007, 05:37 PM
Yes, I also agree firmly to "what Wyatt said about what John said".

Roberto :cool: Thanks for listening.

I also agree with what airflow has said.

If your against 2 seperate catigories they why not be against all but 1 catigory? People need to be recognized for what they are good in and push their skills to the next level if they want to win a challenge in what I believe is the biggest CG website there is...

gaiXyn
07-13-2007, 06:13 PM
I understand what you're saying airflow....but speed only comes with proper knowledge of your subject ( whatEver that might be...cars, human...dynamics )....for example, some people can model heads veryQuickly....and that's b/c they know what there doing....they know where the features are and what they're suppose to look like....so their able to produce faster models and in mostCases, with better results.....having a faster car doesn't make you a better driver...you're more likely to crash actually.....if it's a new subject...like say star wars, then the benefit comes when you're able to observe what you're trying to model...and I don't mean to just see....but an eye for detail....b/c way back when we first did the David model.....EVERYONE...and I mean everyone had the same access to references, the same amount of time.....but yet many different versions of David was made....again, it boils down to the artist....which I'll boarden and say it's the knowledge/skill/talent/patiences that artist has that makes all the difference.....<< that's the real, Real issue.....

Edit:: just to address the part about "the sheer amouth of time and concentration"...believe me, I know what you mean b/c I'm a polyModeler myself.....but what I've found is as I learn more and more about mySubject ( the human figure ) ...it doesn't take as much concentration anymore.....that's why it's good to sitDown and study what you're going to model b/4 you even think of starting....take a day or two....it makes it easier.....


ltr-

WyattHarris
07-16-2007, 06:12 PM
The thing is, is that this only pertains to organic modeling. ZBrush and Mudbox both suck at inorganic modeling. It's possible to do it, but very difficult. That's why most of the time everyone brings in their models from another program. I wouldn't create an AT-AT in ZBrush. Much faster to do that in a poly modeler. So there are trade-offs.

Boy ain't that the truth. Give me point-to-point modelling anyday when dealing with in-organics.

WyattHarris
07-16-2007, 07:10 PM
I think we are addressing a larger industry issue here. Most organic modelling seems to be heading in the direction of sculpting. Therefore those who haven't adapted to it may be feeling left behind by the technology swing. I've felt this many times before due to my chronic lack of funds for software upgrades. This is why I jumped on Z-Brush as quick as I could because it was a perfect match for me and I saved up specifically for it. Comments about Mudbox have now got me thinking, "Crap did I make the right choice, should I invest in Mudbox now?" The cycle never ends...

Some of the comments about this sound as though a certain method should be held to a different measurement stick simply because it is harder to do. I don't think thats right. Lets face it, those that modelled the different ships and vehicles showed what poly modelling can do and they didn't need a special category. A good job is a good job whether it's fast/slow/easy/hard.

Now, this is not the industry, its a challenge forum. And Roberto can make the rules however he wants. If we have a separate category thats fine, but like I said lets not create segregation between "poly guys" and "sculpters." As far as I'm concerned I'm both, I'm whatever I need to be to get the job done. Honestly I thought the texture vs. no texture argument made more sense to this forum.

Speaking of which Roberto, will this still be sans textures as mentioned waaayyyy back before the Star Wars challenge?

gaiXyn
07-16-2007, 07:19 PM
If we have a separate category thats fine, but like I said lets not create segregation between "poly guys" and "sculpters." As far as I'm concerned I'm both, I'm whatever I need to be to get the job done. Honestly I thought the texture vs. no texture argument made more sense to this forum

quoted b/c it's funny, and for complete agreement....:)

ltr-

Airflow
07-16-2007, 08:24 PM
I think in a competivive enviroment it is important to have a correct yardstick. If this was sculpting, you could liken it to one group using sculpey and one using hard rock and a chisel and mallet. One group has a distinct disadvantage in tems of difficulty and speed, what ever way you put it its a disadvantage and so it should be adressed. It doesnt matter if were talking organics or hard surface... Pick any good mudbox sculpt entered in this challenge and ask the artist how hard it would be modeling in pure polys... Im sure they would tell you which they would prefer. And so I think it is fair to allow people to use what ever but also seperate the modeling discipline. I feel no fear entering a sculpture or model, in either categorie, infact I think it will open up the competition, and also force people to examine their work process, find a more efficent way of working, and be able to measure that against a process thats similar to their own, a propper yardstick if you will, as opposed to how cool you think somthing is, it will now be how cool this sculpture is againt this other cool sculpture, as opposed to this cool model. Like to like....

gaiXyn
07-16-2007, 08:51 PM
I think in a competivive enviroment it is important to have a correct yardstick. If this was sculpting, you could liken it to one group using sculpey and one using hard rock and a chisel and mallet. One group has a distinct disadvantage in tems of difficulty and speed, what ever way you put it its a disadvantage and so it should be adressed. It doesnt matter if were talking organics or hard surface... Pick any good mudbox sculpt entered in this challenge and ask the artist how hard it would be modeling in pure polys... Im sure they would tell you which they would prefer. And so I think it is fair to allow people to use what ever but also seperate the modeling discipline. I feel no fear entering a sculpture or model, in either categorie, infact I think it will open up the competition, and also force people to examine their work process, find a more efficent way of working, and be able to measure that against a process thats similar to their own, a propper yardstick if you will, as opposed to how cool you think somthing is, it will now be how cool this sculpture is againt this other cool sculpture, as opposed to this cool model. Like to like....

hey Airflow sup, and again I feel you man...but the only way a correct yardStick would work here is if you "had" to join the challenge....which we don't....and while we're at it...it's a challenge forum afterAll, wouldn't you like to see how you measure up to the sculpters?.....to see how much you can truly push yourSelf with yourCurrent toolSet?.....a correct yardStick isn't really needed since you're coming in knowing what your toolSet is, and knowing what other folks may have as well....it's like a "model at yourOwn risk" kind of deal.....I mean I'm not too concerned eitherWay, I guess I'm trying to figureOut what's really going on here.....

ltr-

RobertoOrtiz
07-16-2007, 09:02 PM
Speaking of which Roberto, will this still be sans textures as mentioned waaayyyy back before the Star Wars challenge?
We will do future cahllenges like the Star Wars one.

Textures are optional, and should NOT be a judging criteria for the best entry. But If a artist want to do a full entry I cannot stop him.

:)

-R

Boone
07-16-2007, 09:34 PM
Re: GaiXyn.

That is true. To pit myself against superior forces( Yav, Simjoy, Airflow etc ) was the only way I was going to learn to become a better modeller. And I was shit at modelling.

I have to say - I prefer it that way, cos If I had won I'd know something would be very wrong!:D

Airflow
07-16-2007, 10:54 PM
Well to be honest, Id prefer to take on somone at an even keel. If I enter in sculpting its my prowess against theirs.... If its Modeling, same thing. Though they are connected they are two diciplines, its almost like asking a matte painter to take on a pinhole photographer. The both have realistic end results, but what it took to get there is more important in my books than the result....

John-S
07-16-2007, 11:54 PM
Some of this conversation reminds me of the arguments I had at imagine fx with the poser users (I don't go there anymore BTW...).

They think that their work should be judged on the same level as a poly modeler :D

Since they have to "create" the character, pose them, light them, texture them and render them. Maybe they are right and that is hard... but its missing the hard part, building the mesh. So if poser was allowed in this challenge then should they be voted for best modeling?

PLEASE DON'T THINK I'M COMPARING ZBRUSH TO POSER. I'm not! Especially since I am seriously lacking in the sculpting talent so far...LOL. I'm just trying to say that there is different skills involved in each thing that produce the same finished product but in a challenge situation the skills for each should be recognized.

Its a "Hardcore Modeling Challenge" so it seems only appropriate for the categories to reflect that properly if there are going to be categories. If there wasn't and you were only voting for "best overall entry" then I would think differently but your not. In a modeling challenge I don't really care who has the best "beauty render" (except its nice to look at and good for CG Talk for advertising picts) in a "Hardcore Modeling Challenge" I would be perfectly content with a good screenshot with wires. I'm worried about the modeling talent not the rest. Attention to modeling details, accuracy to ref material, sculpting, topology etc. To me all the rest falls under the "Best Overall Entry" category which is why I like that category being there as it encourages people to go the extra mile and pretty the scene/model up :cool:

(I hope I don't get banned for using the "P" word in the same post as ZBrush...)

AndreKling
07-17-2007, 12:53 AM
I dont think we should separate sculpting from modelling, for as a modeller what you really should have is a good knowledge of mass and volume, if you used box modelling or pulling million polygons with zbrush or mudbox, doesnt really matters.
I know that you may think that its not far to judge both in the same way, arguing that one is easier than the other, but to be honest this competitions doesnt have restrictions regarding software and you are free to use the one you feel more comfortable with, if we start to create tons of categories soon will have a category for Best ¨3dsmax model using poly by poly without polyboost...¨
If this was a serious competition with prizes involved i think we would need official judges, that would take in consideration how hard was to do the model, the amount of time involved, software used, and so on, but for a competition that is based on image apeal i doubt anybody thinks about those things before giving points.
We should keep this as simple as possible, this competitions are alot of fun to participate ( unfortunatly i couldnt join this last one) and although this thread was made as a competition what really matters is the coments and the support you get during the entire process, and thats why i think that people that shows up at the eleven hour with the model 90% done is missing the biggest advantage of this forum.
Last i would like to suggest for Roberto to create a pool of subjects and have a new comp starts when the voting thread goes live, i think it would be a great way to call attention for the people that comes to vote in the awesome images that was made, and realize he can join the fun right a way.
Andre

John-S
07-17-2007, 01:15 AM
Personally I'm never trying to say that one skill is more or less then the other but just different...
(just incase thats not clear on my part)

fx81
07-17-2007, 01:26 AM
heh. this argument is becoming really amusing.
few hundred years from now there were no power tools. but now you dont expect to do construction work without power tools if you have access to them.
it should be up to the artists whether they want to adapt to the new tools or not.
if you want seperate catagories for poly-by-poly modeling and sculpting then you should have more catagories for people using plugins, primitive shapes, scripts, etc.
what about people using tools such as polyboost and nex. these tools speed up poly modeling by almost 300% or more. shouldnt they have a seperate catagory?

John-S
07-17-2007, 01:47 AM
Well if thats the case then why not use poser? Why is that not allowed? The guys over at IFX seem to think they should be able to compete in these challenges with Poser so why can't they? They have the same argument about poly modelers AND Sculptors being stuck in the past when they have a program that makes it automated and easy. Its about the art remember...LOL. (thats what the poser users always say at least)

A couple challenges ago the argument was over base meshes being allowed for the ZBrush/Mud sculptors because that is the "easy" part for the experts and they didn't want to fuss with it each time by creating new base meshes. Sounds along the lines of your thinking...

Nex and polyboost are ways of building a mesh with an improved toolset. Its not a completely different workflow like sculpting off a base mesh vs poly pushing most details...

Its not about staying in the past. Most studios (speaking from no experience here but...) are probably going to want somebody who can build a solid poly mesh so its easier on them for animation purposes etc. Surely they want great sculptures too. Why not make a challenge that relates to both needs in the CG industry like the new categories will do?

fx81
07-17-2007, 02:19 AM
Well if thats the case then why not use poser?

because poser has pre-made models. i always make my own base mesh.

Nex and polyboost are ways of building a mesh with an improved toolset

the way i see it, sculpting/retopology is also a way of building mesh with improved tools.

Its not about staying in the past. Most studios (speaking from no experience here but...) are probably going to want somebody who can build a solid poly mesh so its easier on them for animation purposes etc. Surely they want great sculptures too.

as i said before, i havent seen one good artists who is great at sculpting but doesnt know good poly modeling. in fact i dont think you can be really good at sculpting without being good at poly modeling first.
and yes, studios wont hire an artist who just knows sculpting but no poly modeling.

tastyUdon
07-17-2007, 02:37 AM
I think using Poser totally defeats the purpose of hardcore modelling, since the models are already prefabricated, as stated in the rules we start off from scratch. If any category for modelling it should be inorganic and organic that is all. Besides the purpose of the challenge is to make us model something in the alotted time, have fun, and learn new things. Whenever I see great modelling whether it be just low-poly or displaced by zbrush or mudbox, it just makes me want to learn more about those programs.

KrakenCMT
07-17-2007, 02:37 AM
Come on, are you kidding?... there's a big difference between creating your own model from scratch and buying the Victoria model that someone else made, garnishing her up with Turbosquid garments and rendering her and claiming it's your own making. Those Poser "artists" who complain about the challenge only being for those who create their own models are lazy. Plain and simple. It's equivalent to a paint-by-numbers set and wanting to enter one in a competition. The paints, pattern, shapes, etc.. are all done for you. You just put it all together. Yes, it's about art, but I think more highly of those who can create their own art.

And creating an anatomically correct model in ZBrush is no easier than any other poly modeling software. If you can't do it in a poly modeler, you won't be any better at it in ZBrush/Mudbox. Skinpores and wrinkles on a bad model still leaves you with a bad model. It won't magically become any better.

And fx81 is absolutely right. That's a good valid point. What about those who rely on their other collection of apps that others don't have to make their job easier/faster? I'm beginning to think that a seperate category for this is the wrong way to go. The categories should reflect the end result (the art) and not the tools.

Airflow
07-17-2007, 02:38 AM
fx81,So based on your last point should we not put emphasis on poly modeling as opposed to sculpting?. You seem to be saying, we should lump sculpting together with poly modeling because artists should be good enought to do both...
What if they are not, isnt this exactly what these challenges are for, to better artists, and instead of having them jump into zbrush/mudbox and sculpt the should learn the basics, challenge themselved to do the difficult first before the easy. I as you, have no problem what we use but I also think about the fellow artists around me who are either not fortunate enough, experianced enough or able to sculpt. For those people I think there should be a classification, the funny thing is its not even a big deal. You put the sculptors together and they sculpt, the best will shine. Whats the issue.
Does the current challenge really reflect the modeling process right now, or the final render?
If it was a hard core modeling challenge, there would be no final image other that constrution images , wires and a greyscale or the model.
And if you think its as easy to do somthing in zbrush as it is to polymodel, I engoin you to do all your detailing in polys, not only is it impractical to try, its time consuming and tiresome. Which is my very point, people dont seem to get. You dont get credit for climbing a small hill, a mountain yes, because you deserve the credit.

John-S
07-17-2007, 02:48 AM
I know why poser isn't allowed and I'm not trying to compare poser to zbrush or any other models. I'm the #1 anti-poser (unless used for proper reasons like storyboards, instructionals etc) person I know.

I'm sick of trying to over-explain my opinions on the matter. Its not that important to me and Roberto is the one who makes the call anyways. I honor whatever he says the challenge rules are and how judging goes.

Roberto told me to discuss my opinions on the matter in this thread so I did so. You guys don't have to like my views but you sure aren't changing them. I'm not trying to say which type of modeling is better or worse because they are equal IMHO.

The challenge will be :cool: to me regardless I just can't help but feel this way about the voting categories though....

fx81
07-17-2007, 03:37 AM
So based on your last point should we not put emphasis on poly modeling as opposed to sculpting?

you should do what ever you can to get the model you like. making a very good polygon base mesh helps a lot befor eyou start sculpting.

What if they are not, isnt this exactly what these challenges are for, to better artists, and instead of having them jump into zbrush/mudbox and sculpt the should learn the basics, challenge themselved to do the difficult first before the easy.

who said sculpting is easier than poly modeling? it is just faster for artists who are already good with poly modeling. if it was so easy we would not be having this discussion. everyone would be sculpting and creating great models everywhere.

Does the current challenge really reflect the modeling process right now, or the final render?

depends on your interpretation of modeling process. workflows change from time to time.

And if you think its as easy to do somthing in zbrush as it is to polymodel, I engoin you to do all your detailing in polys, not only is it impractical to try, its time consuming and tiresome.

why would i do that? it would be like using a knife to cut a tree when i have a perfectly good chainsaw. however if i didnt knew how to use a chainsaw i am likey to chop off my own hand in the process.

bottom line, its the artist who makes it happen. not mudbox or zbrush or maya. it totally depends on the artists' skill/experience.

KrakenCMT
07-17-2007, 04:33 AM
Let's not forget either that before ZB or MB came along that other ways existed to get similar results. For instance, you could paint your own displacements with Photoshop and combine them with bump maps. Of course it would take longer than doing it in ZB, but that's one way it was done pre ZB/MB. And there's been some damn good modeling done using those methods.

simjoy
07-17-2007, 08:44 AM
I think this argument will just run and run ... everyone has there own opinions, and probably arent going to change them ..

No one is dissagreeing that you still need skill to produce quality work, and that similar results can be achieved by poly modelling, but in a time limited challenge (which these are) a ZB/Mudbox user has a distinct advantage ..

Boone
07-17-2007, 09:12 AM
I always use this as an example( though I wanted to refrain from using it...its quite heavy ).

The arguement presented here is not in a Poser sense, but in this one: Stop motion animation vrs Computer Animation. You have a new process that allows you to do something in a much faster and - I bite my tongue as I write this - technically superior way.

Part of me knows that they are two different kettles of fish, but both will produce an animation. The difficulties and efforts required for both methods are quite different - but thats whats on the agenda here: Recognition of the efforts made by the artist to reach that end product.

That is why I felt strongly about not enough updates being shown. I will throw my hat off to the superior artist and shake their hand, but only if they have proved themselves. Some of those entries using Sculpting and Poly modelling tools were of very high quality - but they most certainly would not get my vote. You show me the effort you took to make it and I will then consider it.

I would like to thank Roberto Ortiz for introducing the 10-minimum-update rule.

simjoy
07-17-2007, 09:28 AM
I would like to thank Roberto Ortiz for introducing the 10-minimum-update rule. I agree with that as well .. I gives a much better idea of your work process ...

You cant have "im gonna make ... " "here's the first 3 poly's ..." " oh look, it's done ..."

gaiXyn
07-17-2007, 12:52 PM
this will be myLast post on the matter....b/c like simjoy said, this will just go on and on and opinions can be hard to reMove....I think the main points are being missed by some of you....for example, when I'm to join a challenge, this is myMind condition when I enter ( to get better....to get faster....gain some knowledge/experience from fellow artists... ) .....I don't come in saying, "I hope no one's using ZB, MB, polyBoost, Nex or whatEver b/c that would just beUnfair"......instead, I'll try to learn a thing or two about the artist, ( oldSchool modeler and sculpter alike ) his/her workFlow....etc....b/c I've realize (repeating mySelf ) that it's not the toolSet, it's the artist...and I'm hoping to open the eyes of sum to this fact.....

.....poser shouldn't be used b/c as someOne already said....the models are preMade....I'm not saying poserUsers are not artist...I'll put them in the class of lighting, posing, rendering, texturing perhaps.....never modeling....they didn't model a single polyGon....


I know personally that these challenges have helped me become a better modeler.... if I had sat around worrying about what everyOne else was using I think I would of lost the spirit of the forum...which is modeling......if the playing field bothers you, then don't join...might sound harsh, but that's the truth.....in a few years, this won't evenMatter b/c more and more apps are adapting to sculpting......Modo for example.........so........anyWays...........>>


ltr-

Airflow
07-17-2007, 02:14 PM
I think the issue is coming to a close.

What I, Simjoy, Boone and John S have been saying, is that its fair to use what ever program you want, its fair to have the same time frame for different diciplines, its fair to acknowledge somones sculpting or modeling abilities. Its also fair to acknowledge the effort used to create a model, wether its mudbox, zbrush or pure polys. And as far as I can see pure polys are more difficult to work with than painting on deformation, regardless how you look at it.
So what we are saying is, please show your workings out, how you build your base mesh, so that others can learn from it, and others can help you with your base mesh, and we can enjoy the progession of your work.
Please understand that not everybody has access to mudbox or zbrush and so may have to work in polys, and thus may have to work harder than some, based on their abilities.
Lastly, Im not here to take away any fun from these modeling challenges. On the contrary, Id like to see more people elbows deep in polys, learning edgeloops, and understanding the basic polygon theories involved in makeing models, hard surface and organic. It has been said before, companies wont be interested if you can only paint displacements, so these issues Im talking about are important in your modeling toolkit.
Ill accept any descions that Roberto makes as Im just a entree in these challenges.
But its interesting to see how people percive modeling ability, as there isnt a right way or wrong way, but it would be interesting for the challenges to embrace a wider range of the modelling dicipline. If it means poly artists are up against sculptors, so be it, It means the poly artists will have to accept a greater challenge. If it means sculptors take up the gauntlet and attempt a soley polygon model, even better, as they will be challenged. "Cutting down a tree with a knife," because you have a better chainsaw and decide not to use it... and want to push yourself, instead of being forced to push yourself".

I cant wait for the animal in motion. I might even try it oldschool. Bump maps and polys :)

AndreKling
07-17-2007, 02:39 PM
Airflow, i understand that you may think its unfair someone compete with a model thats made up of a couple million polygons made in a sculping program against a model entirely made up of polygonal modelling ( in max i cant go much beyound 200.k it will be close to die ), but honestly it doesnt really matters. The most important thing is the structure, the anatomy ( when needed ), the smililarity with the subject, and so on and in both ways you can achieve it.
Not everybody has acess to programs like zbrush or mudbox, but its also true that is not everybody that has acess to maya or max, teorically ( cuz i have never used it ) the new version of blender ( free ) has ¨sculpting¨ ability in it.
If you say that modelling poly by poly takes much more time, i agree with you, but the thing is that most people in here has work, wife, free lance gigs, and so for... so the amount of time you spend in a model doesnt necessary means that you are more deidcated than someone else. The other artist may not have the time to go and do it poly by poly.
Edge loops, good topology are all very important things to know, but i strongly dont think that it should be the main point on this competitions, whats really matters in here is the model in itself and how good it represent the subject... we are artist afterall and we shouldnt put technical stuff in front of the art aspect.
Im sorry to keep getting back to this discussion, but its only though discussion that we will grow the forum and the comunity, we are not fighting guys just exchanging ideas :).
take care, and your fet model was kick ass.
Andre

RobertoOrtiz
07-17-2007, 02:52 PM
Ok Just wanted all to say that I am reading your posts.
I was going to add the poly category, but now I am on the fence.

So keep the opinions coming.
BTW the results thread will be up soon.

-R

Airflow
07-17-2007, 02:57 PM
I agree with alot you say, but think the techical part is also part of the art for now. Till the next level of computing can handle the output of zbrush/mudbox, we have workarounds like edge loops. Anatomy is always one of the most important diciplines, I have not excluded it, but edgeloops are too, and they are not all that technical. You can't just put them to the side and sculpt away, even physical sculptors have a version of edglooping, to define muscle boundarys. So its a technique that crosses alot of boundaries. I really dont have anything aginst mudbox or zbrush, as I use them alot, just check my portfolio. But I feel that the other techniques should not be ignored in favor of the latest thing.
I personally dont think its unfair to me myself...., but some of the other entries have monumental tasks, even if they had the whole 1 month and 2 weeks to finish their tasks. Id just like to see some acknowledgment for their efforts, is that a bad thing to want?

KrakenCMT
07-17-2007, 03:37 PM
Misu was acknowledged by winning the last challenge. And his model was all poly modeled and was a dead ringer for Crowe even untextured. Just shows that talent isn't in the tools at all, but in the one that makes the best use of what he's got.

fx81
07-17-2007, 03:46 PM
i think any modeler who works at a production environment has to know good edge looping. it is something you need to learn before you do sculpting. actually if you dont have good edge looping in your base mesh you wont be able to get good results in your sculpt.


but some of the other entries have monumental tasks, even if they had the whole 1 month and 2 weeks to finish their tasks. Id just like to see some acknowledgment for their efforts, is that a bad thing to want?

what exactly do you mean by monumental tasks? do you mean placing thousands of cubes, cylinders and spheres, creating big buildings, bridges and other repetative array modeling? if so, i would rather see less monumental/quantity and more quality.

however, there could be a "Good Topology" catagory for voting if thats what you are asking.

Airflow
07-17-2007, 04:02 PM
I think you starting to get what Im saying, good topology, use of edgeloops, good spacing of detail areas. There is so much that could be added to the challenge to make it a better learning experiance. Me asking for seperate catogories means you can focus on what your doing, others are doing within your category make better comparisons between similar methologies.
Its would be good to have the winners do a short disection at the end too. You have talked about ability to create good geometry before even sculpting. If this is shown people would learn, with sculpts this is less important, as you could build a head out of a sphere, but with poly modeling its imperative for a good model. There are big differances in the two, the speed at which they are done, for me, the easyness of sculpting. But as you say the initial knowlege is important. I want it not to be an issue of, the artist has it or doesnt, but more of a look how we do it, try yourself mentality. Somthing thats less combative and more educational.
And building a atst or stardestroyer might seem repetative, but just ask the people who modeled these things how difficult it is. Much more than painting a cube brush over some geometry plane. :)

Firerbert
07-17-2007, 05:04 PM
Okay, so now I need about 50 beers. I like the new category suggestions and the new WIP rule. Now, where is my bottle opener? I need to calm the hell down after reading all those posts. :eek:

AndreKling
07-17-2007, 06:29 PM
The good poly flow is something that was suggested along time ago when we did the actors face, and roberto said we would have a competition where poly flow edge loops and all that thing would be mandatory. I agree with you all that a good flow is extremly important, and its the first thing an cg artist should learn in my opinion, but i just dont see the need of a separated category just for that. I think its higly doubtfull that the winner model doesnt have a good flow or a solid fundation on the basics. I think when you start to create too much rules you start to lose participants that wont have the time and energy to folow all of them.
keep it simple and fun.

WyattHarris
07-17-2007, 07:04 PM
Got behind on the topic, time to catch up. And this is a very civil arguement so far, I'm enjoying it.

First, you shouldn't compare sculpty/hammer-chisel to poly/sculpting. Why? Because of the output. A sculpty maquette will never be placed in the Louvre, David made of marble will. The harder work with the hammer and chisel produces a superior product that is held in much higher regard.

Whether you poly model or sculpt the finished output is a model, simple as that. A model that can be animated and lit etc. So the tree example is a little more accurate. In both cases the tree is cut. Cut it down in 10 min with a chainsaw, or spend weeks hacking away with a knife. Your boss will be the judge of that. In the end you may get a lot of back slapping and hurrumphs for cutting down a tree with a knife but god lord, it took you weeks.

Now this is not work, its a fun contest of skill and learning. Here is what I learned. ZBrush makes crap meshes if you scratch build in it. No edge loops, odd grid pattern that does not match normal modelling. That has been addressed by the retopology tools, however I did not have time to learn this step because of the time frame of the contest. This meant I decided to drop into LW and model a base mesh of the head that then went in to ZBrush. I was constantly in and out of LW and ZBrush to complete what I did. To me, the tools were equal in the pipeline.

I think a category that strictly deals with the quality of the mesh is a great idea. One that addresses good topology etc. But this still shouldn't separate polys and sculpts. Trust me, look at a ZBrush wireframe, if the person didn't do there best on the base, it will show.

WyattHarris
07-17-2007, 07:13 PM
Second, Poser is plagiarism. If you didn't make the model you shouldn't claim it as yours. Lighter, animator etc. I can go for that.

WyattHarris
07-17-2007, 07:43 PM
Third, I've been tap-dancing around this thought from the first post because its my harsh, blunt reality viewpoint that might offend someone. Reality because I've experienced it myself a few times and it sucks. (And if this doesn't fit you then please disregard)

Poly modelling is more difficult and slower then sculpting. Sculpting IS the direction the industry is going for organic work. I think we can agree on that point with maybe a few exceptions. For one more example check the Ubisoft interview at http://www.pixologic.com. So whats the problem? Not everyone can afford the $500 right now to get this program. Not everyone has time to dedicate to it. Whatever the reason, not everyone has access to this method/tool right now. A person may see someone else blast out an amazing model in 1 night in ZBrush and think, "Well this isn't fair. I can't compete with this level of output." Maybe its not fair but what can you do, its the way things are going. Might be time to figure out how to learn this method. To quote Rick Baker, "Everyone needs to learn ZBrush." (okay paraphrase)

I think making a separation between the 2 methods is a mistake. A superior poly-only model doesn't need a separate category to stand on its own. Just like a poor model will show whether its been sculpted the heck out or not.

Plus think about it, we as artists know the amount of work it takes to poly model details vs. sculpting on a base mesh. I will gladly vote for someone who makes a superior poly model, much like airflow did this time, as opposed to myself who made a jacked up ZBrush model and added some band-aid fixes to make it look good but will never animate right.

I think the topology category is the best way to address this overall. However in the end the categories are irrelavent, we're gonna vote how we want.

octopus7
07-17-2007, 10:39 PM
This is probably why i'm now learning how to use Zbrush 3. As I have been impressed with what can be accomplished with it as long as you have a good poly modelled base mesh to put into it for sculpting. I am hoping to use a mix of 3D max poly modelling and Zbrush sculpting for the next challenge.

And Roberto you are right about poser. just look on some of the "other" 3D sites out there and see the endless parade of boring pre-fabricated poser scenes...yawn!

anyway all great debate!

John-S
07-18-2007, 09:07 PM
Ok, this is interesting how this conversation is going. So, I had the very first post in this discussion asking for a poly based catigory and a sculpting catigory. Then a couple backed me up and a couple were against the idea.

Now we are at people saying that "there could be a "Good Topology" catagory for voting if thats what you are asking."

Well, that was the point of asking for separate categories. "Good Topology" is the same as the poly catigory I was refering too. Just a different word for it. Thats why I posted the links to neversongs models. Good use of topology. Poly modeled details while maintaining an animatable structure etc.

Having 2 catigories leaves the poly modelers (that don't have zbrush) not alienated feeling that there is absolutely no way they will be able to go against a model like:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=4506388&postcount=13

But at the same time when a model that is sculpted like that AND has an excellent poly based underlying structure these people can win in BOTH catigories.

The point is not to seperate the old and the new, poly vs sculpt its to give non-sculpters hope but yet encourage them to learn more if they want to win in multpiple catigories. Same with the sculptures, if they want to win in multiple catigories then they need to step up and add in more details via polys then sculpt.

Then say mannymation had time to get that model into zbrush etc... that would have probably been a very top contender for poly modeling catigory, sculpting catigory and overall catigory. Its recognizing a VERY SOLID Professional model that can be used for whatever its needed for. Its "Hardcore Modeling".

You say sculpting is "the way of the future". Well, currently its not the only way it only PART of the pipeline and for many reasons. However you can encourage this "way of the future" modeling by giving it its own catigory which encourages it.

2 catigories does nothing but encourage people to push the bar (which is the point of a "hardcore" challenge) and create the most solid entree as possible. Plus it may get more entrees (although some of you think less for some reason?) because someone that is modeling in Maya doesn't feel like they are going against something that they cannot achieve. (lets face it, I don't know anybody that can do a photoshop bumpmap that holds a candle to what zbrush can do...)

As for the Poser thing... it is plagiarism I agree. It was never meant to be discussed and I wasn't ever seriously asking about it... I was just trying to make a point with it but failed.

WyattHarris
07-19-2007, 02:45 AM
You know what John, you've convinced me. Very good point. A person that is sculpting DOES have a base mesh that they could compare to others meshes. And since this is a contest of honor (not prize) include as many people as you can to strengthen the overall group. I can dig it.

For the "Animals in motion" I think there should be a category specifically for capturing the moment whether it is "Best interaction", "Best movement" etc.

I already knew what I wanted to do before the Star Wars challenge so I'm itchy to get started.

John-S
07-19-2007, 04:43 AM
:cool: So in theory if we have:

Best Sculpting
Best Poly Modeling
Best Hard Surface Modeling (if applicable with the challenge)
Most Accurate Likeness
Most Creative
Best Overall (including textures, compositing etc)

Then do we replace "Most Creative" or something with an animal in motion (or whatever the topic may be relating too) or do you mean to add a category on top of these?

Or better yet... what is a list of categories relating to what we have discussed here that you all are comfortable with?


As for starting on the next topic... I really hope I can join. I'm still plugging away at my entry for this challenge :blush:

AndreKling
07-19-2007, 09:02 AM
Sure, you can have all categories you want, but in the end the real deal is the best overall one, for its based on all the things of the other categories, what i would incentivate instead of more categories, is that people when voting add a small coment on why thet are voting for someone, like there was some in this comp. Im afraid that when you have 7 categories chances are that people will just give points and thats all.
Maybe the best overall model should be a category that is locked and the result of it is the sum of all categories and therefor the winner of the challenge.

In regarding the best topology, what will be considered ¨best¨, a all quad models? model with edge flow defining muscle shapes? a model good for deformation? in the example you showed, the base mesh looks as bad ass as the final model ( polies of even sizes, all quads, and i dont think it would be too bad for deformation ), uv maps would be considered for this categorie aswell? lest face is one of the most boring parts of modelling, and the importance of it is huuuuge... there is alot of pluggings that helps laying it out, but in the end you still need the artist to lay it out in a smart way, and the model you used as an example has one of the best uv lay outs i have seen in a long time, so i think that should be considered a plus for his modelling skills.
Andre

Boone
07-19-2007, 11:13 AM
I'm still not convinced about seperating polys and sculpting. I do not use sculpting software because it doesnt interest me. Its not my thing. But I accept that is a tool for modelling. And that is the mark of a professional - use the right tool for the right job with the right skill. So I really do not hold it against anyone using sculpting software - I think they are doing the right thing. This is a modelling contest and should encourage a user to use their knowledge of tools to the maximum. If a builder doesnt have the tool he needs to do a job - he pops down the local B&Q and gets it! If a sculpting software can improve a model then its something you should have in your toolbox.

The price of Mudbox and Zbrush is about £300, so if you are serious about being a complete modeller - then thats quite a reasonable solution. Hell, throw in a Silo licence and to have the complete toolbox for a professional modeller you'll only be forking out £400 tops. For those who use MAX and Maya for modelling - you've already paid atleast £1500 but will only get poly-modelling.

For the upcoming challenge, I may consider actually using a sculpting software - even if it does cost me a bit of money if it means being able to compete against the pros. Being as we are doing animals and that they are mostly organic shapes then I have little choice. But thats the way it is.

John-S has used an example from the last competition. My apologies to Theerapol for putting them in the spot light a little longer, but I feel its the best example of what I was getting at earlier....

Hes gone for making a base mesh in Maya, then ehancement in Zbrush. Fair enough, they are using the right tools for the task ahead of them. Theerapol has even stated clearly their reference as well. But what can be wrong I hear you ask?

The problem is that Theerapol has shown their working out for the Zbrush part - but not for the effort in Maya. I'm sure you will all agree with me that the base mesh Theerapol has produced in Maya is an effort to be proud of - but without showing the progression of the base model I cannot vote for it. For all I know you could have used a pre-built model.

However, Theerapol, do take comfort in the knowledge that if you had presented the updates, I would have voted for you in the organic modelling area.

But thats not to say I'm perfect either! When I presented the first picture of my N1 Starfighter - it would appear that my base mesh had all the pieces in place. One could argue that I used a pre-built mesh! When I realised this I showed the reference-planes and basic meshes for the Stinger and Royale Cruiser models that followed. I did actually consider remaking the N1 from scratch many times, but I felt everyone would be convinced it was genuine because it was such a crap model to begin with! But yeah, straight off the bat next time I will post reference planes and primitive model progression.

Airflow
07-19-2007, 12:15 PM
I dont think Boone intentionally meant to accuse anyone of using pre-built models, and Im sure no one did, I think he is just highlighting the need for all artists to show the entire work process from scratch exactly like Roberto outlined in the rules.
They exist in the rules for a reason and should be met by everyone entering. I think that was what boone was trying to get across.
As for the other point, one which is more resilliant than any rebel alliance, I think it can be solved by not having seperate classes, but as John and others have suggested a new category for best topology, that either a poly modeler or a sculptor can win based on their base meshes. Its an incentive to not use a box, or sphere to start sculpting from, but to build a base mesh with as much though as was put into Theerapol's. Somthing Like that or Mannymations could win such a category.
Someone said that the overall category is the most important, I disagree withthis statement, if this was a normal competeion then yes the overall category would be paramount, but it a modeling challenge, and I think that the focus should be on technique, instead of the final image. The quality of the modeling should be most important, but people are easily swayed by a beautiful final image. Im not sure what Roberto can do any more than make it mandatory that final images are clay renders, but then that would take alot of fun out of the whole thing.
I dont envy him in this respect.
Im sure his changes will be apt.

KrakenCMT
07-19-2007, 03:38 PM
Technique should be secondary to the final model. After all that's the product you're selling. So if I decide to sculpt first, retopologize later, sculpt some more, re-pose, sculpt some more, it shouldn't hinder voting much at all, if any.

My feeling is that these category suggestions are becoming too focused on the process and not on the art itself. It's important to show the process to be sure, but as eductional as this challenge is to all, the end result is that everyone votes for the best art. The WIP threads will provide the educational part of the challenge. And Q&A should be encouraged within them.

We take pics of our models from all sides and one wireframe and one well lit beauty shot. Most of the technical process is left out of the voting thread and voters are shown the final model. The categories should then reflect the artistic choices/skills within these.

Based on that, my category suggestions for the next challenge would be:

Best Portrayal of Movement (This is for the entree which captures the best feel/motion of the situation. And would the creature(s) be able to maneuver like that?)

Best Technical Achievement (This is for the entree which has the most solid technique with the tools they chose. Considerations include polymodeling, topology, sculpting, etc... By paying close attention to the apps used and the wireframe pics, you can tell who made best use of the tools they had.)

Best Creative Concept (The one with the most aesthetically original concept. But not so original that it's too far out there...) I really don't know if we even need one like this, though. I think people will naturally consider this one when voting for Best Overall.

Most Accurate Forms/Likeness (Does it actually look like the creature(s)? )

Best Overall (Self explanatory)


Also, for this last challenge, I took 45 minutes to pick the entrees that would get my vote because the entrees were so good. That was for just 5 categories. The more categories, the more time required to vote. Just something to consider as it might turn some off from voting all together.

John-S
07-19-2007, 04:14 PM
Personally I would rather have poly and sculpting (odviously...LOL) but if that was to lose the debate then I agree that best technical achievement is a good category instead. Even then though its pretty much the same as seperating them, its saying the same thing but one catigory short. And its less direct.... So basicly all I'm saying is thats the next best thing IMHO.

I also agree with Airflow 100% and I've said it since the start of the challenge that this should be based on best overall modeling. Its a "Hardcore Modeling Challenge", simple as that!

If you want to go where its "all about the art and final render" thenI think the CGS Awards and Gallery area are the place to vote for that IMO.

:cool: Good points people.


Boone, don't worry about it buddy... I think we all have come to the conclusion that more WIP images will be required next challenge. However, no matter how many you have there is nothing stopping anyone from using an old model they had stashed away that had screenshots or incremental file saves. There has got to be a high level of trust and I think all of us have that or else we wouldn't be in this comp...

fx81
07-19-2007, 05:01 PM
what if i start sculpting from a cube, create a rought shape, repotologise on top of the rough sculpt to creat a good base mesh, then do final sculpt on the retopo mesh? would there be any poly modeling points in this workflow ?:rolleyes:

Rod Seffen
07-19-2007, 05:06 PM
CMT is correct, there is too much focus being put on the process with all these categories.
It's the final model that counts.
I've changed my opinion about it being faster and easier to zb/mudbox sculpt organic subjects.
That's what I used to think before I took up sculpting, however, it is not easier to sculpt a figure, it is much, much harder.
Why? - because the level of subtle anatomical knowledge required increases exponentially when you sculpt a dense mesh. With any poly model, the anatomy is no more than stylised topology, with good loops for animation being foremost in the artist's thought process, but with sculpting, the gloves are off, it's all about pure anatomy and nothing else, and that's a monumental task and responibility. The more you learn about anatomy and figure sculpture, the more you see there is yet to learn.
Poly modeling has a natural technical cutoff point as far as level of detail and subtlety are concerned, and that makes it an easier discipline, and an quicker-learned one than sculpting, where there are no boundaries, and you are in the same arena with all the great physical sculptors, and can't help but try to emulate them.

KrakenCMT
07-19-2007, 05:11 PM
Well, if it's not about the art and more about the process, then why do a challenge where we have categories for best likeness, most epic model, etc... where almost all the categories are aesthetic/subjective in nature?

But if people are wanting the challenge to evolve into more of a classroom, then I agree that the process is more important than the final piece. But frankly, I think that wouldn't be as interesting.

what if i start sculpting from a cube, create a rought shape, repotologise on top of the rough sculpt to creat a good base mesh, then do final sculpt on the retopo mesh? would there be any poly modeling points in this workflow ?:rolleyes:

I think yes, because IMO retopologizing is creating point for point a new mesh. But I gues that's a matter of opinion. But this is another reason why I think that there shouldn't be two seperate categories. There's too much gray area now to seperate them.

because the level of subtle anatomical knowledge required increases exponentially when you sculpt a dense mesh. With any poly model, the anatomy is no more than stylised topology, with good loops for animation being foremost in the artist's thought process, but with sculpting, the gloves are off, it's all about pure anatomy and nothing else, and that's a monumental task and responibility. The more you learn about anatomy and figure sculpture, the more you see there is yet to learn.
Poly modeling has a natural technical cutoff point as far as level of detail and subtlety are concerned, and that makes it an easier discipline, and an quicker-learned one than sculpting, where there are no boundaries, and you are in the same arena with all the great physical sculptors, and can't help but try to emulate them.

Excellent point!

John-S
07-19-2007, 05:59 PM
Best likeness is about accuracy, attention to detail etc. Its very important in a challenge on modeling when your are using any kind of reference material.

Most epic is part of this challenge but it is one that may be changed.

This is a challenge. There are rules and goals to EVERY CHALLENGE. You didn't seem to mind accurate likeness or most epic in this challenge which shows me that you don't mind having "goals" in a challenge. The thing some of us are saying is that its a modeling challenge so lets focus mainly on the model and leave all the rest for optional (like they are now) or save your vote for best overall entry if you will. What is "classroom" about it? Nothing. Its interessting to a few of us... maybe not you and some others. Its a tossup it appears.

As far as retopology etc. I can care less. How you get your "reference" is your choice. I use a picture>poly and you may want to use a picture>sculpt>poly either way... its fine. That would probably give you a good upper hand too as you would have good topology and a good sculpt so you have the possiblity of winning both catigories and be a runner up for "best overall".

oDDity, your entry for the Harry H. project was one of my favorites to watch :cool: I do remember you being very strongly opinioned that your stock basemeshes should be allowed however and you shouldn't have to build them for each project in a challenge since its "easy" for you. So, although I respect your views on how tough sculpting is etc ... I'm going to agree to disagree with you on the catigories and basemesh aspects.

Airflow
07-19-2007, 06:02 PM
So are you saying that, if I gave you an image of Goerge washington, it would be easer to create his likeness from a cube in max or maya, than to sculpt him from a sphere in mudbox or zbrush. I sure know which one I would choose if I wanted to complete a challenge in under a month. When your talking about diciplines outside the boundary of this challenge, the definition of that dicipline changes. If I gave you 6 months to create the same sculpt, the level of detail in the sculpts would increase exactly as you have said, but not within this short timeframe, the advantages are on the side of the sculptors.

Boone
07-19-2007, 06:08 PM
LOL, I was just thinking - just for a laugh - about a modelling challenge where we had to put aside the computer and do a physical model. Paper mache, pipe cleaners, clay, plastercine, origami etc.:deal:

morphius-ms
07-19-2007, 06:31 PM
first off I want to apologize if anything I've said has been said before or if what I say is harsh I wanted to post before I went to work and I have to go in like 4 minutes of starting this post, and don't have time to type, reread, type, reread, etc.. or if I'm bringing up a topic that has been put to rest since I haven't been able to read all the posts, but I did read most of them.


My opinion: Not to have seperate categories between sculpting and poly modeling.

My reasons:

- you guys are saying that there is a difference between the two. My opinion is that there is no difference because you have to know how to poly model before you can sculpt. It's been said before if you don't know how to poly model you won't get a job. Sculpting is just the next step. If you don't have good topology then the model would not turn out right.

That being said, I agree that there should be a topology restriction but not necessarily a "Best Topology" category. reason being is because there are different ways of doing topology but alot of it just ends up haveing the same end result.

- but back to my reasons... If you don't know how to sculpt, it would be in your best interest to learn. There are multiple ways of doing this, (if you are a student) you can get the student version of the sculpting programs.

Or you can do it the way that I was doing it before I got ZB, there is a tool in maya (and apparently in the free blender too, and I'm guessing that 3ds has something similar in it as well) that was called Mould, it is just like a poor mans ZB/MB. Yes you can't go into super detail, but you can get a better topolgy, and then go into Photoshop and as a bump map, your render time won't be near as much as ours with a Displacement map, plus all you have to do is update the bump map, what we have to do is export the obj file, export the displacement map, export the bump map, and then refresh, but yes we can sculpt faster.

- speaking of that, be it poly pushing or sculpting, this forum is to make your self better, faster, stronger. I know I will probably won't win but I enjoy this forum nontheless because it is a great place to learn, so if you can't win at a category, make yourself better and faster.

As it has been said many times before, it is not the program that makes the better model, it is the artist that makes the better model. You have just as much of a chance as anyone else to win, it's up to you if you want to do it.

Oh and one more thing, Poser = non-modeler, but it does have its uses.

John-S
07-19-2007, 06:37 PM
Poser = Posing

Mudbox and ZBrush Sculpting = No OS X intel mac compatability

Blender = Out of question



Either way, having 2 seperate topics and an overall topic does encourage people to learn both ways...

Rod Seffen
07-19-2007, 06:46 PM
So are you saying that, if I gave you an image of Goerge washington, it would be easer to create his likeness from a cube in max or maya, than to sculpt him from a sphere in mudbox or zbrush. I sure know which one I would choose if I wanted to complete a challenge in under a month.

You're talking about the technical difficulty of using polygons.
You're deliberately handicapping yourself by using polygons, and that's your choice, but I don't see why your entry should get special treatment because of it.
If this was a traditional oil painting contest, and I decided not to use my hands, and instead hold the brush in my mouth, I couldn't complain if my work didn't turn out as good as some others.
Poly modeling is a dying discipline in organics, and good riddance to it, it was only ever a means to an end, a solution that had to be implemented in the early days of CG due to lack of computing power, and was always a handicap for artists.
Let's not pander to it, and cling on to it like it's a worthy old artistic practice that deserves to be continued.

KrakenCMT
07-19-2007, 06:49 PM
Best likeness is about accuracy, attention to detail etc. Its very important in a challenge on modeling when your are using any kind of reference material.

It's also about the artists's eye in seeing what makes that subject unique and capturing it's essense, if say, it's a figure. It's more about that than it is projecting a front and side view on a poly model and lining it up. So best likeness has more to do with artistry than process.

The categories aren't and shouldn't be goals. They are just categories. The only goal I have in my entrees is to do the best I can during every phase of my workflow.

Airflow, is it faster to create a base mesh in ZB or a poly modeler for an organic figure? And how fast might it be to get a decent likeness in either program? Misu proved to be fast in doing both just poly modeling. But sure ZB/MB could take it further, adding more wrinkles, pores, etc... But as has been stated several times before, if you can't capture the essense of a model in your poly modeler, ZB/MB won't magically give you that ability. That's why the Technical Achievement category I suggested would/should take the model's creation into context - what software was used, polyflow, etc....

Poser = Posing

Mudbox and ZBrush Sculpting = No OS X intel mac compatability

Blender = Out of question

Either way, having 2 seperate topics and an overall topic does encourage people to learn both ways...

I don't see it that way. If someone who only has poly modeling software enters the challenge, they see, "Hey! There's a poly modeling category!" There's no incentive to take a new direction.

Plus I'm on an Intel Mac with Windows. ZB works great! Don't know about MB though.

LOL, I was just thinking - just for a laugh - about a modelling challenge where we had to put aside the computer and do a physical model. Paper mache, pipe cleaners, clay, plastercine, origami etc.:deal:

I'd be totally up for that if I could find the time for it!

Airflow
07-19-2007, 07:05 PM
Im glad, at last it has been metioned that if you choose to poly model you are handicapping yourself, I personally used both poly and scuplting and would like to clarify that I have nothing against it, except that this competiton pits one work process against, as oddity said, an other older and inferior process. And as most people are saying you should just shut up if you poly model and deal with it, because were too busy to take you into account.
I really wanted to be able to show that its not just the artist but the quality of their tools that sets the outcome of their labour, and that even the best artist would be held back based on their tools, which some people dont realy have a choice in, though they are the minority.
So here I leave this discussion, I hope some people will see it within them, to as I have said before, understand the artist abilities, the tools they use and the pros and cons of those tools when they are judging a model or sculpt...
Thanks for listening.

KrakenCMT
07-19-2007, 07:49 PM
I really wanted to be able to show that its not just the artist but the quality of their tools that sets the outcome of their labour, and that even the best artist would be held back based on their tools, which some people dont realy have a choice in, though they are the minority.

Give me John Singer Sargent with crayons and a piece of paper over your better-than-average digital concept artist with Photoshop any day.

So here I leave this discussion, I hope some people will see it within them, to as I have said before, understand the artist abilities, the tools they use and the pros and cons of those tools when they are judging a model or sculpt...

And that's the key, right there!

John-S
07-19-2007, 07:51 PM
I said no ZBrush on OS X intel mac. Same for mud...

If I wanted windows I would have bought a PC. I don't. Thats a subject that has no bearing on this topic really though... I shouldn't have brought it up.

I think we are running ourself in circles. We have maintained a good discussion but we are all just repeating ourselves now I think...

We both think our opinions of catigories are crippling, encouraging and discouraging continendents when in reality this challenge will have the same amount of people no matter what.

Are any of us really not going to join this challenge again based on the outcome of this conversation? Not me... I'll be in no-matter what the layout is because its CG Talk, Fun and teaches me disipline with time. I would like to see it the way I stated because I have my reasons I spoke already but otherwise.... Lets just get the winner announced Roberto and move on with the next challenge :cool:
(which I hope I get time to do we'll see...)

Like Airflow said... Thanks for listening guys :thumbsup:

RobertoOrtiz
07-20-2007, 01:48 AM
Ok s lets concentrate on the RULES for the next challenge.
What kind of animal interaction we should see?
Should the animals come from a list, or should it be an open entry?


-R

John-S
07-20-2007, 01:52 AM
Open entry :cool:

That way you never know what someones going to come-up with. There is ALOT of animals out there and this would leave plenty of room for creativity and research :thumbsup:

WyattHarris
07-20-2007, 01:56 AM
Are any of us really not going to join this challenge again based on the outcome of this conversation? Not me... I'll be in no-matter what the layout is because its CG Talk, Fun and teaches me disipline with time.


Its funny, I never notice the categories until its time to vote. That might say it all right there.

All yours Roberto. :thumbsup:

morphius-ms
07-20-2007, 04:41 AM
Alrighty first off, I know I came in late into the argument, there were a few extra things that I wanted to say but they were said by other people so I am going to leave it at that.

Open entry :cool:

That way you never know what someones going to come-up with. There is ALOT of animals out there and this would leave plenty of room for creativity and research :thumbsup:

Second, IDK if open entry is a good idea, yes there is alot of animals, and allows for alot of creativity, but we could end up comparing apples and oranges in the finals. (Now that I think about it my comment holds no weight, because we are focusing on the modeling and not the actual interaction, or motion, or whatnot.)

My fave would have to be Predator Vs Prey.
Or "Play time" "kid" animals at play, or even adults animals at play.

Or you could even make this into a Strange Behavior thing, since this is going on at the same time.


thats about all I can think of so far...

Oh and Roberto when are we going to start this next challenge, before or after Siggraph, because (as you already know) it is probably gonna go straight through Siggraph, which atleast I know I am attending. And I have been waiting for this challenge, I really really want to participate.

John-S
07-20-2007, 04:50 AM
Now that I think about it my comment holds no weight, because we are focusing on the modeling and not the actual interaction, or motion, or whatnot.
If this is directed at me in any way then please see the top of the last page of posts. Me and WyattHarris mentioned our views on this...

AndreKling
07-20-2007, 09:48 AM
I think open is much more interesting creatively speaking, but in the other hand i think when you have a very short list like 3 to 4 models to choose from, it becomes much more hardcore, since you will have alot of people that will do the same model as you, so the focus on the anatomy and details will speack by itself.

another reason to go from a list is that you can repeate this category over and over again, just changing the animals in the list...

Boone
07-20-2007, 10:18 AM
For the animals in motion, I would have it as an open entry - so long as its an animal that is in motion.

A good example would be the recent thriller PREY where some man is mauled to death by a pair of Lions. Although I wouldnt suggest we do scenes of such graphic nature, lol, the lunges the lions make, running - the front paws reaching out for the bite...that kind of thing.

I would love to do a Turtle, but it would be very hard to convey movement with such a slow beast. Maybe we can do a comedy catagory? A slow animal with the characteristics of a much faster one? That could allow me to do the Turtle!:deal:

KrakenCMT
07-20-2007, 01:32 PM
Open! I think "Animals in Motion" says it all. The basic parameters are there. I think there are so many different kinds of interesting animals with different kinds of movement that limiting it to a list will hinder the diversity and creativity.

I don't think we will be comparing apples and oranges in the end if we leave it open. It's the fact that the focus is also on capturing the motion which will give the entrees a common thread.

Plus, if we revisit this theme, the diversity of animals in the world is great enough so that we could still have an open challenge and do it over 3 or 4 times at least.

I'm excited about this particular challenge and I have a good idea of what I'd like to do, I'm just waiting for the starter pistol! I think this one will bring in tons of excellent entrees!

morphius-ms
07-20-2007, 02:00 PM
If this is directed at me in any way then please see the top of the last page of posts. Me and WyattHarris mentioned our views on this...

No this wasn't directed at you it was just saying that me saying that open wasn't a good idea because we are comparing apples and oranges (which means different kinds of interaction), but since we are focusing on the modeling and not necessarily the interaction here I ended up contradicting myself and I realized it.

It being open could end up being interesting but there are lots of different interactions that could be done, we should fish (sorry for the pun lol) out the possibilities instead of just saying "Open".

I think open is much more interesting creatively speaking, but in the other hand i think when you have a very short list like 3 to 4 models to choose from, it becomes much more hardcore, since you will have alot of people that will do the same model as you, so the focus on the anatomy and details will speack by itself.

another reason to go from a list is that you can repeate this category over and over again, just changing the animals in the list...

^^This was what I was saying. He just said it better than I did. lol

KrakenCMT
07-20-2007, 02:17 PM
Just a note.... I just noticed that Silo 2 is available as a 30 day publically open beta trial, and every 30 days a new updated version of the beta will be made available. So essentially, people can use the beta for free until it's officially released.

Might be nice for those who are interested in using a sculpting app for the challenge who may not already have one.

Get it here! (http://www.nevercenter.com/)

WyattHarris
07-20-2007, 09:59 PM
Umm, I would like it to be open because I've already got an idea. :blush:

morphius-ms
07-21-2007, 05:06 AM
I've forgotten that so many people were already ready for this before the starwars challenge. I guess open wouldn't be too bad, plus it would be nice to see the different interactions.

Ok that is another thing I just thought of... with a broad scope of animal "motions", should we limit it to interaction or just motion, cause in that case one person could just do running, or jumping, or walking, or (get my drift)... I understand that some people have already picked out their action/interaction but still.

My vote is for Open, as well..

But shouldn't there be something like posting the type of interaction/motion you were trying to protray. so the vote would be easier, when it comes to voting for most accurate interaction/motion....

RobertoOrtiz
07-23-2007, 06:52 PM
We will go live on Friday...
Some of the rules I have in mind:

Animal can only be part of the CURRENT Animal Kingdom (Animals that have existed in the past 100 years)
Only realistic entries are accepted, No anthropomorphically animals, no Bengal tigers with saddles. Imagine you have been given a commision for a National Geographic magazine article.
NO HUMANS (We need a break from them)
Realistic animal motion must be captured. The core of the challenge is to capture the animal doing realistic motion
You may do any animal form the following animal groups:
fish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish), amphibians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibian), reptiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptile), birds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird), and mammals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal). I apologize in advance for the fans of Viruses & Amebas. (I am on the fence about insects)
Some of the categories I have in mind are: Predator & Prey, Humorous, Animal Combat, Encounters, Animal & Habitat (Diorama)
Dioramas WILL BE ALLOWED

KrakenCMT
07-23-2007, 08:30 PM
One of the ideas I was hoping to do was do a pack of Greyhounds in a race.

But that wouldn't fall under any of those categories, except for possibly Animal & Habitat Diorama, or perhaps Animal Combat?

We'll need categories that encompass most of the great ideas I know will be flowing this time around without being overly specific.

RobertoOrtiz
07-23-2007, 08:37 PM
One of the ideas I was hoping to do was do a pack of Greyhounds in a race.

But that wouldn't fall under any of those categories, except for possibly Animal & Habitat Diorama, or perhaps Animal Combat?

We'll need categories that encompass most of the great ideas I know will be flowing this time around without being overly specific.
Good point.
I will add A Misc Category....

octopus7
07-24-2007, 07:10 AM
Hi Roberto, I enjoyed the last challenge so much I will be back for this one! Hopefully so will others who took part in HMC#9.
I noticed you said you are on a fence about insects. Because I really want to do an Australian native Tarantula rearing up getting ready to make a meal of a cricket. I want to do this because:
A - I have a pet tarantula which could help as a reference. though i'm stuffed if i'd touch her!
B - Nobody has ever made a model of an aussie tarantula before.
C - I'd like to hone my skills with Zrush and may even opt to do most of the scene in Zbrush.

So i'm hoping you give the green light to insects & arachnids.

John-S
07-24-2007, 08:05 AM
insects etc in an "animales in motion" challenge sounds kinda wierd.

However I'm fully in agreement that I think insects etc should be included since its basicly the non-human interaction "in-motion" it seems that this challenge is going after.

So I'm for it but, it doesn't match the name of the challenge much... I'm struggling to think of a name that would match the challenge better. "Wildlife in Motion" just isn't working for me so...LOL.

Stinger88
07-24-2007, 09:34 AM
I've been looking forward to this one. Couldn't finish the star wars one (will finish it in the WIP section though). I have been waiting for the release of the rules and the types of animals we can do. I was planning to do a Sperm Whale vs A Giant Squid. As I want to do an underwater scene.


Can I just ask. A squid is a mollusk or cephalopod. But for the purposes of this challenge can it be considered a fish?

KrakenCMT
07-24-2007, 01:27 PM
For a title, if "Animals in Motion" doesn't work (although it sounds OK by me), how about "Kinetic Creatures" or "Animals in Action"? Just throwing that out there...

Also, will multiple entrees be allowed again?

RobertoOrtiz
07-24-2007, 02:07 PM
Can I just ask. A squid is a mollusk or cephalopod. But for the purposes of this challenge can it be considered a fish?

A squid sounds fine.

Also, will multiple entrees be allowed again?
Multiple entries will be kosher.

-R

Rakhan
07-24-2007, 02:46 PM
and the deadline ? when it´ll be ?

I´m looking foward to this challenge, I was interested in the last one too, but couldn´t participate. This one I´ll try, if there´s enought time, of course.

RobertoOrtiz
07-24-2007, 02:51 PM
and the deadline ? when it´ll be ?



We will do the standard Month and a 1/2.
If we start on Friday, start counting after Monday.

-R

WyattHarris
07-24-2007, 06:47 PM
Bingo, bango bongo! Ready to begin!

I plan on doing a house cat jumping at a butterfly in flight. I could change that to a bird if the butterfly is no good.

RobertoOrtiz
07-24-2007, 06:51 PM
Bingo, bango bongo! Ready to begin!

I plan on doing a house cat jumping at a butterfly in flight. I could change that to a bird if the butterfly is no good.
The butterfly is very kosher.
Looking forward to it.

-R

nottoshabi
07-24-2007, 10:07 PM
I know you guys allready have your minds set on this months chalange. How about something that the rigging department can sing theyr theet in to? Like a some kind of creature with lose skin, or wings, some hanging cloth. Or a robot with movable parts that create a bigger motion. Something chalenging like that? What about something like that, what do you guys think? Just an idea...

RobertoOrtiz
07-24-2007, 10:09 PM
I know you guys allready have your minds set on this months chalange. How about something that the rigging department can sing theyr theet in to? Like a some kind of creature with lose skin, or wings, some hanging cloth. Or a robot with movable parts that create a bigger motion. Something chalenging like that? What about something like that, what do you guys think? Just an idea...
Well we might be a hallowwen based challenge around october...
The creature you describe sounds like a vampire or a giant bat..
-R

nottoshabi
07-24-2007, 10:12 PM
Yeah I guess, not neceserlly but it could be. I let you guys to come up with the concept. Something where dynamics and cloth, and colision could come into play.

Boone
07-24-2007, 10:51 PM
Actually, as I have chosen character rigging as my primary skill I would very much like the chance to team up with a modeller for such a challenge. Halloween would be a great oppertunity for such a contest. A splendid artist and a skilled rigger...interesting.

RobertoOrtiz
07-25-2007, 02:16 PM
We might do a joint challenge with the rigging mini challenge folks...
Ill see if I can start the ball rolling.
This does sound like the PERFECT halloween topic.
We could start AFTER animal in motion ends, and give the model to the rigging people
for a mini one week mini challenge.

RobertoOrtiz
07-25-2007, 02:24 PM
More rules:

Modelers may shade their models but it is not a requirement. See this entry from the Star Wars challenge as a great example of a unshaded entry: >>LINK<< (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=4506404&postcount=25)
Animal hair & manes may be done using hair shaders or you may sculpt it
ALL MODELS will be done from scratch. Parametric entries will not be allowed.
Participants may do multiple entries.
Modelers may do tributes to classic animal photographs, BUT they need to give credit to the original source material.
Examples

This is a great example of the type of entry I would like to see:
>>EXAMPLE 1<< (http://www.largeart.com/images/products/Coming-Soon/Bronze-Animal-Buffalo-Bison-Statue-xlg-1.JPG)
>>EXAMPLE 2<< (http://www.bronzealive.com/images/IMG0112.jpg)

-R

Nemoriko
07-25-2007, 02:52 PM
HI,

I personally like the idea of animals in motion the best, But Creatures half Human half animal is better.

;-)

AndreKling
07-25-2007, 05:41 PM
Can we have a human as a second modelin the scene? for example a bull and a rider in a rodeo, or a toro and a torero during a torada? A cowboy and his horse...
Andre

RobertoOrtiz
07-25-2007, 05:49 PM
Can we have a human as a second modelin the scene? for example a bull and a rider in a rodeo, or a toro and a torero during a torada? A cowboy and his horse...
Andre
Onn case by case basis, since we have done plenty of humans.

Having said that I like your ideas and they are ok.
-R

Rakhan
07-25-2007, 07:32 PM
Just waiting for the "go" signal.

Ready to go, boss, I think I´ll model a scene with two lions fighting for the pride lead.

octopus7
07-25-2007, 10:33 PM
I'd be prepared to let the rigging guys have fun with my tarantula once I start to model it. But I may need to do 2 versions of it. the first version would be a basemesh made in MAX and sculpted in Zbrush. And the 2nd version would be a refined and detailed version of the basemesh solely done in MAX, as I have heard that Zbrush made sculpts are extremely difficult to rig and animate convincingly. Also the Zbrush spider would be posed and the normal one would be in a straight layout to make rigging easier.

Just a suggestion with this rigging / modelling idea. Maybe a small team would be the way to go with this. As it'd be easier for one to model, one to texture and another to rig / animate.

nottoshabi
07-25-2007, 10:39 PM
I heard you can save the Zbrush work out as a bit map and then we can imported in as a texture. I'm not sure about the perminology. But I know this can be done. I rigged a character as a freelance and I know thats what they did.

Sonk
07-26-2007, 01:18 AM
Im interested in this contest! So, i take it rigging is OK ? I would like to model my animal in a neutral pose and then rig/envelope it, then play around with the pose. Lastly, high res sculpting and texturing is allowed?

PS> a Squid sounds cool. hmm.

RobertoOrtiz
07-26-2007, 01:15 PM
Im interested in this contest! So, i take it rigging is OK ? I would like to model my animal in a neutral pose and then rig/envelope it, then play around with the pose. Lastly, high res sculpting and texturing is allowed?

PS> a Squid sounds cool. hmm.

OK here are more rules based on your message.


You can sculpt your character in a neutral pose, rig it, and pose it OR you can sculpt your character in the desired pose. Your call.
High res sculpting and texturing is allowed

RobertoOrtiz
07-26-2007, 01:16 PM
Just a suggestion with this rigging / modelling idea. Maybe a small team would be the way to go with this. As it'd be easier for one to model, one to texture and another to rig / animate.
OK Lets just say that I am keeping this in mind for a near future challenge. More on that soon.

-R

cjewell
07-26-2007, 03:17 PM
It's looking like I might be in on this one....I'm leaning toward a Mongoose vs. Cobra diorama.

tastyUdon
07-27-2007, 04:38 AM
How about classic video game characters, that were pre-3D era.

eldee
07-27-2007, 08:24 AM
How about classic video game characters, that were pre-3D era.
That would be awesome.. although I'd like to add the following stipulation to it: It can't be a game that was made into 3D (keeps it challenging if you can't use existing 3D designs as a crutch)

RobertoOrtiz
07-27-2007, 04:25 PM
We are live...

HCR MINI-Challenge #10: Animals in Motion (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=208&t=522889)
-R

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