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rocarpen
03-18-2003, 09:31 AM
Ack!

That's the word, according to Tom's Hardware. The following was taken from their interview with the AMD people at Cebit:

"...One of the highlights was the announcement of the Athlon 64 for September 2003 in conjunction with the desktop platform. This means that the 64-bit Athlon (Claw Hammer) definitely won't be available until Christmas at the earliest..."

http://www.tomshardware.com/business/20030314/cebit2003_2-03.html

I myself am a long-time Mac guy, finally seduced by the dark side and putting together a PC system of my own. I'm investing in quality parts built around a Barton 2500 and Asus A7N8X Delux mobo, which I intend to both swap out for a Hammer CPU and mobo when AMD finally releases said items. Looks as though that might still be some time off. Bummer... I was hoping for summer or autumn of this year.

Oh well.. there's always something better, right?

raz-0
03-18-2003, 03:33 PM
well Q3 is the official date. Which usually means end of september. If it were a new chip launch, a 2-3 month lag might be expected, but there is hope they will land closer to the q3 date because it si merely a reworking/repackaging of the opteron core and the opterons (and thus, hopefully, production and yield problems) will be released and sorted out already.

But heck, who knows. 6 months is an eternity in the chip world. Look at the original delays with athlon MP and NVIDIA's latest problems.

GregHess
03-18-2003, 03:47 PM
Man will you people PLEASE stop reading tomshardware. There aren't enough digits on the human body to fully realize the multitude of times that site's been totally wrong.

Here's a thread on the subject.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24408&highlight=tomshardware

Their recent posting of their vga charts (not even a few weeks ago) countered some of their own articles on THOSE video cards. (Two condradictory sources of data)

April 22nd is the release date of operton. Its not Athlon-64, but its still a 64 bit AMD chip. As Raz-0 mentioned, sept is the date for Athlon-64. We can just wait and see when its available to consumers.

As another case example, look at Nvidia's Geforce FX. It was announced sometime last september I believe? Its still not available in bulk, and the original card reviewed is almost impossible to get ahold of...if you didn't preorder it.

rocarpen
03-18-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by GregHess
Man will you people PLEASE stop reading tomshardware. There aren't enough digits on the human body to fully realize the multitude of times that site's been totally wrong.

Here's a thread on the subject.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24408&highlight=tomshardware

Their recent posting of their vga charts (not even a few weeks ago) countered some of their own articles on THOSE video cards. (Two condradictory sources of data)

April 22nd is the release date of operton. Its not Athlon-64, but its still a 64 bit AMD chip. As Raz-0 mentioned, sept is the date for Athlon-64. We can just wait and see when its available to consumers.

As another case example, look at Nvidia's Geforce FX. It was announced sometime last september I believe? Its still not available in bulk, and the original card reviewed is almost impossible to get ahold of...if you didn't preorder it.

Toms is no good? Hmm... I havn't heard that one before. In this case, I'd say you're being a bit hasty in dismissing the quote. It comes direct from the mouth of AMD people at Cebit, after all. This isn't some wonky benchmark.

PlanetMongo
03-18-2003, 08:39 PM
Not to mention: PPC970 is "just around the corner" on the mac side and if rumours be true, will bring the Macs back into the competitve fold of things. Early rumours estimate announcement in September, with shipments in Dec-January. If you're waiting that long, might as well see what the whole market shakes up with. I'm not exactly holding my breath for either. I think it'll be awhile before I can afford *either*. :)

rocarpen
03-18-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by PlanetMongo
Not to mention: PPC970 is "just around the corner" on the mac side and if rumours be true, will bring the Macs back into the competitve fold of things. Early rumours estimate announcement in September, with shipments in Dec-January. If you're waiting that long, might as well see what the whole market shakes up with. I'm not exactly holding my breath for either. I think it'll be awhile before I can afford *either*. :)

I myself am a longtime Mac user, somewhat sad at having to finally leave the fold. I'm reeeeally going to miss OSX, Final Cut, DVD Studio Pro, and iTunes.

But just how friggin' long did Apple expect myself and others to keep buying over-priced, under-powered Pro machines? If the 970 was coming out in 4 months, even 6, then I could maybe see waiting. But January?

Screw that. I'll take the 2500 now, and consider upgrading to either the 970 or Hammer in early 2004.

PlanetMongo
03-18-2003, 09:48 PM
I understand your pain. I was a Loyal Amiga user from 89-95 and it really broke my heart to leave the platform. On the other hand, I've never had a Mac and until OS X, never wanted one. As I just did a minor hardware refresh on my desktop, I figure I can wait another year or so to see what shakes out of the Clawhammer and PPC970 camps. In the meantime, I'm putting about $700/month away for this time next year, which should be plenty to buy what I want/need. And maybe those 23" cinemas will be down to $500 or so.. ;)
But, that's my situation, and I know everyone else's is different.. :)

rocarpen
03-18-2003, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by PlanetMongo
I understand your pain. I was a Loyal Amiga user from 89-95 and it really broke my heart to leave the platform. On the other hand, I've never had a Mac and until OS X, never wanted one. As I just did a minor hardware refresh on my desktop, I figure I can wait another year or so to see what shakes out of the Clawhammer and PPC970 camps. In the meantime, I'm putting about $700/month away for this time next year, which should be plenty to buy what I want/need. And maybe those 23" cinemas will be down to $500 or so.. ;)
But, that's my situation, and I know everyone else's is different.. :)

Currently the word on Apple rumour sites is that 30" flat panels are in the works. The debut of those monsters should push the 23" down a few hundred, as you say.

Regarding OSX, I've used Win2000 and XP briefly, and don't mind them. But working on a Mac in any artistic capacity JUST FEELS SO RIGHT. Hard to really describe, but you hear it time and time again. I'm not crazy about the interface quirks in OSX, but otherwise it's a friggin' godsend of an OS.

Too bad there are no workstation-level 3D cards for the platform. That for me is the real deal-breaker (well, and the price differences). The competition in the Wintel world just pushes technology forward SO fast! I'm loving researching all my parts. Here's the list so far:

ANTEC 1080 PERFORMANCE PLUS Case
ASUS A7N8X DELUXE Mobo
ATHLON XP 2500+
PNY nVIDIA Quadro4 750XGL
CORSAIR CMX512-3200C2 DDR 512MB x 2
80 GB Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9, 8MB Cache, Serial ATA
VANTEC AEROFLOW SOCKETA HSF
VANTEC STEALTH CASE x 2
Antec 80mm Smart Fan
LOGITECH ELITE KEYBOARD
TEAC BLACK 1.44MB 3.5IN FLOPPY DRIVE

Total: $2184 Canadian (before taxes)

Can't wait! Might save my pennies for a QuadroFX 1000, though. We shall see!

GregHess
03-18-2003, 11:25 PM
Toms is no good? Hmm... I havn't heard that one before. In this case, I'd say you're being a bit hasty in dismissing the quote. It comes direct from the mouth of AMD people at Cebit, after all. This isn't some wonky benchmark.

If it comes from tomshardware.com I immediately put it into the "verify before considering legit" catagory. Also known as "rumor".

All i know is that Shuttle XPC Athlon-64 system looks swank as heck :).

Sieb
03-18-2003, 11:42 PM
TOMS IS BAD... BAD BAD BAD.... there are no "if" or "but"s about it.. Ask anyone in the hardware community. He lost all credibility what, two, three years ago? I find no value in anything written on that site anymore. Go to places like www.anandtech.com or www.hardocp.com or www.amdmb.com to get your review news.

Everything is on schedule, just check the AMD roadmap on their website. http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/TechnicalResources/0,,30_182_608,00.html

There is no real hurry to get everything upgraded. We don't even have a 400MHz FSB, and Bartons just showed up. And DDR2 is still being pushed back till late next year.

paultheplumber
03-19-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by GregHess
All i know is that Shuttle XPC Athlon-64 system looks swank as heck :). If that's more than just a rumor: :drool:
Do you have links to more info?

All I know is I signed up for a contest a while back to win a 64-bit machine from AMD. The drawing is suppose to be held at the end of March... I'm going to be disappointed if I win that and have to wait until Christmas to get it... ;)

rocarpen
03-19-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by Sieb
TOMS IS BAD... BAD BAD BAD.... there are no "if" or "but"s about it.. Ask anyone in the hardware community. He lost all credibility what, two, three years ago? I find no value in anything written on that site anymore. Go to places like www.anandtech.com or www.hardocp.com or www.amdmb.com to get your review news.

Everything is on schedule, just check the AMD roadmap on their website. http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/TechnicalResources/0,,30_182_608,00.html

There is no real hurry to get everything upgraded. We don't even have a 400MHz FSB, and Bartons just showed up. And DDR2 is still being pushed back till late next year.

Interesting AMD roadmap. Thanks for the link to that! As you say, a Christmas roll-out isn't dramatic news at all - just the opposite. It's on target all the way.

As an aside, I've yet to read anything on Tom's that really contradicts what I read on other sites such as Sharky Extreme and Anandtech. Sure, I'm new to PC hardware, but things just don't seem so bad to me as you guys paint them to be.

Regardless, I'll still look at THG a little more skeptically from now on.

GregHess
03-19-2003, 12:24 AM
http://tech.163.com/tm/030314/030314_86200.html

Takes a bit to load, but its hard not to notice the "Athlon 64 AMD" sign on the lower shuttle photo.

And I'm not saying Xmas isn't a realistic release date...just that tomshardware sucks :). Always make sure to verify anything you read somewhere else first....like whether or not the second cpu in a dual processor system actually does anything :).

www.2cpu.com

paultheplumber
03-19-2003, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by GregHess
http://tech.163.com/tm/030314/030314_86200.html

Takes a bit to load, but its hard not to notice the "Athlon 64 AMD" sign on the lower shuttle photo. It looks like a toaster oven! That anonymous green front panel with few buttons kind of gives it a "magic appliance that could be anything" look.

And is that guy from Sudhian who won the mod contest ever going to get his X-pc back? Or is his prize LCD mod going to spend the rest of it's days touring the world in Shuttle's convention booths?

Well, I hope rendering speeds live up to all this 64-bit hype.

GregHess
03-19-2003, 11:34 AM
That anonymous green front panel with few buttons kind of gives it a "magic appliance that could be anything" look.

There has been a growing push to make PC's look more like modern/retro appliances then just generic beige pc's. Luckily there is now a huge # of choices for virtually every form factor available to the consumer. From brushed alumnium sleek machines, to the most "elaborate" concieved machines I've ever seen.

Do a search on google for cebit 2003 photos. Some sites have alot of case photos. Some of them are pretty wild looking.

I'm a bit fan of alienware's new case design, which looks similar to the older sgi workstation cases. Doesn't seem available to purchase yet however...though I've seen it featured in a number of magazines.

http://mirror.ati.com/shopati/promotions/images/sipromo/alien_system.jpg

MadMax
03-19-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by rocarpen
Toms is no good? Hmm... I havn't heard that one before. In this case, I'd say you're being a bit hasty in dismissing the quote. It comes direct from the mouth of AMD people at Cebit, after all. This isn't some wonky benchmark.

And how do you know that Tom didn't make up the entire thing?

he's done it before and got caught red handed.

last year he claimed to be in physical posession f advance 3.06 P4's, thensomeone realized the photo was doctored.

Overnight Tom's article was changed, saying they overclocked a 2.53 part to show what performance of a 3.06 MIGHT be like.

He even denounced the "rumors" and lies being spread about him as being false and said he had never made any such claim.

Many people, myself included saw teh very article he claimed didn't exist on his site.

Tom is a proven liar and a fraud.

rocarpen
03-19-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by MadMax
And how do you know that Tom didn't make up the entire thing?

he's done it before and got caught red handed.

last year he claimed to be in physical posession f advance 3.06 P4's, thensomeone realized the photo was doctored.

Overnight Tom's article was changed, saying they overclocked a 2.53 part to show what performance of a 3.06 MIGHT be like.

He even denounced the "rumors" and lies being spread about him as being false and said he had never made any such claim.

Many people, myself included saw teh very article he claimed didn't exist on his site.

Tom is a proven liar and a fraud.

Wow, well that's definitely the harshest indictment I've heard so far. I'll be sure to bear this in mind in the future. Check Tom's, but be sure to corroborate whatever you learn with information from other sites.

rocarpen
03-19-2003, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by GregHess
That anonymous green front panel with few buttons kind of gives it a "magic appliance that could be anything" look.

There has been a growing push to make PC's look more like modern/retro appliances then just generic beige pc's. Luckily there is now a huge # of choices for virtually every form factor available to the consumer. From brushed alumnium sleek machines, to the most "elaborate" concieved machines I've ever seen.

Do a search on google for cebit 2003 photos. Some sites have alot of case photos. Some of them are pretty wild looking.

I'm a bit fan of alienware's new case design, which looks similar to the older sgi workstation cases. Doesn't seem available to purchase yet however...though I've seen it featured in a number of magazines.

http://mirror.ati.com/shopati/promotions/images/sipromo/alien_system.jpg

Oh my god. That's absolutely beautiful...

:drool:

Shit, Apple can't even claim the best looking industrial design anymore. The Alienware site has some AMAZING stuff on it.

PlanetMongo
03-20-2003, 04:03 AM
Erm.. well.. It's kinda okay. A bit garish for my tastes (then again, I thought the iMacs were tacky when they first came out, too). Maybe in a dark teal it might be better.. With purple trim. You know, like an SGI. :)

My ex-roomate has an Alienware machine. Rounded IDE cables, everything nicely tied up, the case design is great, nice airflow, easy to work on (all the drive bays are accessible from the front! NO prying off the front!). If I were buying a pre-build, I'd give them (or BOXX) a serious look.

Shuttle's, however, with their mini-design has always appealed to me.. :)

rocarpen
03-20-2003, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by PlanetMongo
Erm.. well.. It's kinda okay. A bit garish for my tastes (then again, I thought the iMacs were tacky when they first came out, too). Maybe in a dark teal it might be better.. With purple trim. You know, like an SGI. :)

My ex-roomate has an Alienware machine. Rounded IDE cables, everything nicely tied up, the case design is great, nice airflow, easy to work on (all the drive bays are accessible from the front! NO prying off the front!). If I were buying a pre-build, I'd give them (or BOXX) a serious look.

Shuttle's, however, with their mini-design has always appealed to me.. :)

See, I don't get the appeal of the mini-PC. Give me a honkin' tower like Antec's Performance Plus 1080:

http://www.antec-inc.com/images/400/PLUS1080AMG.jpg

THAT's the case for me! :applause:

paultheplumber
03-20-2003, 06:45 AM
I almost like the Antec cases. But what's with the door on the front? Ugh. It's just an annoying thing you have to move out of the way all the time. Sure you could pull it off, but then it looks funny....

Sieb
03-20-2003, 06:54 AM
Actually its the same case used for the new Alienware cases (all the same chassis, just different bezel). I still think its one of the best cases, I had two of them. Now I am on my Coolermaster 410, soon to be rackmounted and replaced by my cube. I just don't have a need for a massive case with 8 fans when everything I need is in one small package that I can cary to lanparties in my bag (that doesn't way 75lbs!).

I like having the door, it hides those god awful biege drives and everything. Plus, the big Antec cases have slid out drives so the hindges are hidden by the door also. Made for a nice clean look I think.

rocarpen
03-20-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Sieb
Actually its the same case used for the new Alienware cases (all the same chassis, just different bezel). I still think its one of the best cases, I had two of them. Now I am on my Coolermaster 410, soon to be rackmounted and replaced by my cube. I just don't have a need for a massive case with 8 fans when everything I need is in one small package that I can cary to lanparties in my bag (that doesn't way 75lbs!).

I like having the door, it hides those god awful biege drives and everything. Plus, the big Antec cases have slid out drives so the hindges are hidden by the door also. Made for a nice clean look I think.

Not to mention the reviews are phenomenal! Why Tom's gave it an excellent rating!

;)

Seriously though, this case gets A LOT of praise. It even comes with an Antec 430 W TruePower built-in, which is a top-notch power source (so I've read). Great deal, great case. Can't WAIT to dive in and get my hands dirty. Me, a Mac guy who's biggest achievement was swapping amy 24x CD player for a new burner, off to build a PC from various parts. Be still, my beating heart! Gotta learn about Windows now!

Regarding the door on the 1080, I wondered about that too. Happened to see one in a store while browsing, and immediately upon inspecting the door thought, "...what the fu..." ? I'm sure I'll get used to it though.

:bounce:

PlanetMongo
03-20-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by rocarpen
See, I don't get the appeal of the mini-PC. Give me a honkin' tower like Antec's Performance Plus 1080:

http://www.antec-inc.com/images/400/PLUS1080AMG.jpg

THAT's the case for me! :applause:

Overcompensating for something, friend? ;) Actually the reason I like the "mini-PC's" is the fact that I take my desktop with me to my weekend job (nothing to do but play, really), and lugging around my current mid-tower rig + monitor is really one big PITA. Shuttles will fit in my bag with my keyboard and trackball, halving half of my transport problems. I've thought about Alienware's so-called laptop, as well, which would probably do just as well for what I do (EQ and Maya, some programming (java/C/C++)).

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