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View Full Version : HMC 9: STAR WARS TRIBUTE: Han Shoots First


RedRepublik
05-31-2007, 09:00 PM
i am going to try and right the wrongs that lucas forced upon us with the special edition. han will always shoot first. i'm not sure if i will create the moment of han killing greedo, or something slightly before that. i need to capture some video and decide. here are a couple of images that i found inspirational.
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/2498/han01cc0.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7213/han02qu0.jpg

Boone
05-31-2007, 09:59 PM
Yeah, I know what you mean. A totally stupid edit that should never have been made...its a bit like editing Roy Batty to piss on Deckard at the end of Blade Runner...:rolleyes:

But yes, that was perhaps the one scene(from the original cut) that I would remember the most from A New Hope. I still think it was the best scene in the whole movie.

But I shall stop babbling and wish you the best of luck.:D

RedRepublik
06-01-2007, 03:45 AM
i have been crunching at work this week so i won't get a good start on this until next week, but here is the start of the box modeling. just trying to figure out the proportions at this point
http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/3656/box01tg2.jpg

thorns
06-02-2007, 03:12 AM
i like the topic you have chosen
i'll definatly be following youre progress
and i wish you luck

RedRepublik
06-02-2007, 09:41 PM
started mudboxing
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6407/hs01gw8.jpg

Boone
06-02-2007, 10:23 PM
Hey, looking good so far. :thumbsup:

PKT
06-03-2007, 05:38 PM
Oh, thats Han allright, looking very promising. I will keep an eye on this.

jac3d
06-04-2007, 02:37 AM
hi, very nice your update and ready mini challenge, !!!:eek:

katana2665
06-04-2007, 10:59 AM
It's a good subject. When i first cut school to go to the movie in '77, the catina was by far the most interesting. I never really understood why Lucas thought it would be more fitting to redo that part. Personally, I feel it should have been left alone to han's scoundrel ways..oh well. As for your scene...good luck with it....also you'll find a couple of shots of Han's costume in the ref section, that I posted.

RedRepublik
06-04-2007, 03:50 PM
thanks for the encouragement. i realized there is no point in working on the body if i don't nail the likeness. here is the start on han's head. it is a couple hours worth of work in mudbox. there is still alot to do to make it look like him.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/7618/head01up7.jpg
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9048/head02fs4.jpg

fx81
06-04-2007, 04:17 PM
hey, nice work on the cloth.

the face look good so far. the lips and nose are closest but the eye socket is off. keep going :thumbsup:

Boone
06-04-2007, 04:23 PM
Goodness me, that looks like a very young Harrison Ford. A really good head model.

Lordrych
06-04-2007, 06:09 PM
Hey don't forget this signature chin scar either!! and I can't wait to see you drop down Greedo!!

Baron

RedRepublik
06-04-2007, 07:44 PM
a small update. i wanted to add eyeballs so i can start to see what is wrong with the shape of the eyes
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3285/head03fk9.jpg

Whyst
06-04-2007, 08:24 PM
wow you can definitely start to see good ol' Han in that head model keep going!

E_Moelzer
06-04-2007, 09:16 PM
I think Harrison Ford did not get his chin- scar until after RotLA.
Good work so far though...
CU
Elmar

RedRepublik
06-06-2007, 03:13 PM
hey, not too much new stuff to show, but i did combine the body and head so i can start tweaking proportions. one thing i'm scared about is the hair. i have never done non game art hair, that is to say, any kind of real hair solution, so that should be interesting. any recomendations?
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7029/han02wu2.jpg

Boone
06-06-2007, 03:16 PM
Hmmm...well, he looks super. Yes, a bald Han Solo will not do, but...hmmm...what 3D Application are you using?

RedRepublik
06-06-2007, 03:28 PM
3ds max, but i have access to maya also

Boone
06-06-2007, 03:40 PM
Hmmm...I'll have a word with a clever 3DS Max user I know. I use Max myself, but never done any hair stuff.

Come to think of it, I'll have a look in my MAX bible sometime today - see what I can turn up for ya.:)

RedRepublik
06-06-2007, 03:43 PM
thanks, boone

Boone
06-06-2007, 03:46 PM
you're welcome:D

darklopium83
06-06-2007, 04:34 PM
great mod it's looking good so far, want to see more

Boone
06-06-2007, 06:15 PM
Okay, I've taken a look at the Hair'n'fur modifier for MAX 8. Goodness me its rather tricky!

Until others arrive on this thread to help out(or until my person gets back to me), the best thing I can suggest is to make another low-poly head. Nothing fancy - just a basic head will do and muck about with that...

1) Apply a Hair and Fur (WSM) modifier to the head model. Simple.

2) Create a subobject selection of all the polys you want to apply hair to. Use the element selections in the modifier for this - not the head model!

3) In the tools rollout you have a button labelled Style Hair. This supposed to be where you would do stuff like "comb" and "smooth" the hair guides, but I find a bit odd myself...it doesnt rotate in perspective view, and its curious as to why you cant position element with the standard gizmos...

...other than that - experiment before you use the Harrison copy. Still, MAX seems to have a great variety of options and editors for adjusting the hair so with a bit of effort & luck you'll start to get the hang of it...:thumbsup:

WyattHarris
06-06-2007, 11:06 PM
Its a good likeness of Han. The face is really close.

The body may be a little thick though. Han is a bit thinner than that, mostly the boots and pants at the bottom. But as you say, face first ;).

http://www.blizzplanet.com/coppermine/albums/my-stuff/han-solo.jpg

Airflow
06-07-2007, 12:47 AM
Hair and fur if you have enough ram, say more than 2 gig, ( mentalray renders this ok but its pretty slow) vray does it better if you either make the hair geometry or render as geometry in the enviroment/effects tab.
Id make the scapl object from hans head, then add a H/f mod to it, if your using max9 its easier to style, just brush it roughly how you want it, then make splines from guides....
Tweak the splines, then in the hair settings recomb from splines. This make your hair wrap to the splines, but still stay as a propper hair mod... Its more flexible this way than using the guides to emmit the hair. Assign a material from the mat editor isnstead of using the hair color system. If need be render everything scanline and comp afterwards.

Nosalis
06-07-2007, 03:51 AM
Cool stuff .. the cloth result from mudbox makes me interested in trying it out :)

RedRepublik
06-07-2007, 07:27 PM
thanks for the hair ideas. i am trying to get a copy of max 9 right now, so i won't start the hair just yet. i am continuing on the face, adding some smaller details.
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5702/headgreypm6.jpg

Airflow
06-07-2007, 08:39 PM
Sick...Just Canon mate...

RedRepublik
06-08-2007, 06:34 PM
thanks airflow.

ok so here is the update. i started the color map. this render is just a blinn, no spec map or sss or anything fancy yet, just a render test. i have switched from mudbox to zbrush for the smaller details and the texturing. still alot of work to do to make it look like good old han!
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/6986/headdf01bh2.jpg

Firerbert
06-08-2007, 10:02 PM
First thing that jumps out at me that I think is just throwing things off is his eyes. The iris' is too large. It takes up almost all of the white of his eyes. Dial them down just a hair. Speaking of, that will be interesting to see, how you do the hair. I'm looking forward to it!

RedRepublik
06-08-2007, 10:08 PM
one last update for the day. i still havn't made spec maps, but i do have a shader started. now that the skin shader is one there, it is easy for me to see all the things i need to change. his features got soft, so i need to go back into the model and harden them, especially the nose. i need to add more uneveness to his skin. i need to slim the face down a bit and round out the corners of the jaw. they eye shapes still need work too. i also think i should exagerate some of his features, like his crooked nose, and scar to make him look more recognizable. i know there are things i am forgetting to mention, so if anyone has critiques, i would be happy to hear them.
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4338/headdf03akl0.jpg

Firerbert
06-09-2007, 08:01 PM
sss really does soften everything up. can be somewhat difficult and frustrating at times, but it makes your texture maps look even more awesome at the end. i think you should exaggerate for sure and if you're using any disp. mapping, then it will bring it out much better. his eye look better and i'm glad to hear you're going to pay extra attention to them. as the golden rule goes, those sell the character.

RedRepublik
06-11-2007, 04:38 PM
i played with the values of the sss shader and added spec maps. i am going to move on to other parts now so i don't get bogged down in the head. when i come back to the head i will work on the eyes, add eyebrows, eyelashes,chest hair, and hair.
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/1387/head03ve6.jpg

WyattHarris
06-11-2007, 04:49 PM
How do I say this, he looks too "young". I know thats not very specific but I think it has to do with the amount of wrinkles and bremishes on his face. I can definately see this as Han though, great work.

Firerbert
06-11-2007, 05:01 PM
I think you've got this blocked out well enough to keep moving. Don't get too caught up in it and then you'll be scrambling for the rest of the scene.

RedRepublik
06-15-2007, 05:24 PM
ok i needed a break from the head so i am trying to finish up the costume piece by piece. here are the boots to an almost finished stage. next is pants/belts
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7277/bootsvu7.jpg

Yav
06-15-2007, 05:29 PM
Gotta love the boots :)

Boone
06-15-2007, 06:04 PM
Yes, I would like a pair of those boots too!:thumbsup:

turx
06-15-2007, 06:16 PM
great progress so far
i'll watch this thread =)

Rakhan
06-15-2007, 08:32 PM
Sweet, dude, you have achieved a nice resemblance, IŽll be watching this threadŽtill the end.

Keep up!

-Rakhan

monkeysweat
06-16-2007, 01:59 AM
Impressive, most impressive...

Whyst
06-17-2007, 06:25 PM
wow the texturing on Han looks great so far =) and yes that's a miiighty fine pair of boots there :thumbsup:

RedRepublik
06-17-2007, 08:11 PM
i'm glad everyone likes the boots. tomorrow i should have something to show for the pants and belts. i am feeling the deadline approaching...

RedRepublik
06-18-2007, 07:31 PM
i didn't get as far as i had hoped with the pants and gear, but i am going to keep moving up and working on the shirt and vest next
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4751/pantsbi8.jpg

Firerbert
06-18-2007, 08:29 PM
:bowdown:GOSH DAMN MAN!

PKT
06-18-2007, 08:41 PM
You know your stuff man. That last update is super good.

shennie
06-18-2007, 08:53 PM
that's a frikkin' awesome update... hope u can continue the quality. then youre going to be under the first entrys!

greets shen.de

shahabp
06-19-2007, 01:34 AM
yes the head looks good,
also the body! :applause:

sapienz
06-19-2007, 02:49 AM
The textures sure looks good.
Lets see how greedo comes along.

RedRepublik
06-20-2007, 05:42 PM
thanks for the comments. i am trying to get han finished up by the end of the weekend. i figure greedo will be alot easier. forgive the poor lighting and rendering of this image, i havn't had a chance to set up some decent lights
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5798/body02tc9.jpg

jamesylvester
06-20-2007, 05:58 PM
excellent work man, the cloth looks perfect. hope you manage to get greedo finished too

degm3ister
06-20-2007, 06:05 PM
I totaly admire your work. The cloth looks perfect. Keep it up :thumbsup:

ChewyPixels
06-20-2007, 06:29 PM
That's some damn impressive work! :thumbsup:

What sculpting software are you using? Zbrush or Mudbox?

Looking forward to see this one finished.

RedRepublik
06-20-2007, 06:32 PM
jedi-juice, i am using max, mudbox, and zbrush for the sculpting, and zbrush and photoshop for texturing.

Whyst
06-21-2007, 06:57 AM
wow great stuff the renders looking really good :thumbsup: esp those jeans! heheh and yea was starting to wonder if you were gonna get to Greedo... can't wait to see what you do with him =)

RedRepublik
06-22-2007, 08:10 AM
still trucking along with solo. i am having problems getting the displacment maps to show up properly, so this render just had mid level mudbox parts to cut down on render time, so that is why everything looks soft. tomorrow i will finish the vest i hope, then i can start on the hair and blaster, then make greedo...
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6497/uploadok5.jpg
and a closeup of the belts and gear, which are mostly finished
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8193/upload02ea9.jpg

RedRepublik
06-22-2007, 08:11 AM
oh yeah and the hand need to be textured too

Airflow
06-22-2007, 08:38 AM
Im having exactly the very same problem...
Nice going, your nearly finished on him!
Looks great.

John-S
06-22-2007, 08:42 AM
Great Job! Looking forward to seeing this completed : )

Firerbert
06-22-2007, 01:25 PM
So what rendering engine are you using then? If you're using MR, making sure you scale the crap out of your model. MR has real issues with dispmaps.

RedRepublik
06-22-2007, 05:09 PM
firerbert

i am using mr.when you say to scale the crap out of the model, what size are we talking here?

red

simjoy
06-22-2007, 05:17 PM
I think he's trying to say use a real life scale i.e. Han = 6ft. MR works best in real scale

Very nice work by the way ...:thumbsup:

Yav
06-22-2007, 06:26 PM
Looks brilliant. He's not entirely photorealistic, which in my opinion is great. He looks very stylised, like a really good game character from a next-gen console. Keep up the excellent work :)

shadowman99
06-22-2007, 11:33 PM
You need to add the blood-stripe to his pants. :D

Great progress!

RedRepublik
06-23-2007, 03:49 AM
i tried the scaling trick, and i think it helped the displacment maps some. i still need to do some research on that. i worked on the vest today. looks like i am still on track to finish him this weekend, and start greedo next week. i will recycle as much as i can from solo to use for greedo. yav: i always try to shoot for a slightly stylized character because i'm not great with photorealism. i will try and exagerate the pose when i get to that stage to continue the stylized feel


http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/7545/uploadama8.jpg
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3563/uploadbvc6.jpg

maje3d
06-23-2007, 05:00 AM
You know, I'm thinking that you need to add some chest hair, or at least the hint of it.

You've got some great texturing in there and even if you don't finish the whole scene, the quality of your Han Solo model alone makes you a serious contender. Can't wait to see how you do the hair.

simjoy
06-23-2007, 11:22 AM
I'd agree with a hint of chest hair, but also i think that he needs more hair up top. ATM he looks about the same age as me (43 on Monday :rolleyes:) with about the same amount of hair.
A bit more of a fringe needed if your going for the movie look ..

Otherwise its really excellent .. :thumbsup:

maje3d
06-23-2007, 03:42 PM
lol, Simjoy, I think he's touching up the rest of the model, before he tackles the hair. Not to assume the mind of RedRepublik, but I think he plans to use the poly-plane method with an alpha channel. Not sure if you do anything with that in Zbrush or Mudbox though.

Firerbert
06-23-2007, 03:45 PM
Red,
Check out this video tutorial by Scott Spencer (http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=025542). It was a huge help when I discovered the same issues you're having. Granted now it is in Maya, it still uses MentalRay and it's still really parallel for the workflow. Hope this helps!

Firerbert
06-23-2007, 03:49 PM
As far as going stylized versus photorealistic. I think stylized is always better than photorealistic simply because the stylized way makes it actually look more realistic. We see real life every single day and we're too critical of it when it comes to 3D. When it's stylized and it's looser, then it fools your mind to thinking it is realistic because there's more imperfections. This was the same problem ILM had when recreating Yoda. They made him TOO realistic that it just didn't work. They had to loosen up and stylize him to make him work in comparison to all the imperfections that the original puppet had.

RobinAlexander
06-23-2007, 04:26 PM
looks really good! oh btw how did you model that cloth , sry if this question was already answerd.


edit: ah i see, zbursh and mudbox.

RedRepublik
06-23-2007, 04:44 PM
wow, lots of comments since i last checked.

maje3d and simjoy: don't worry, there will be plenty of chest and head hair, and even some arm hair. i am going to try and use a hair solution in max, but if that doesn't work i will fall back on the good old planes with alpha. the reason i haven't tackled it yet is because i am scared

firerbert: thanks for the link, i will check it out and try and fix my issues

robin: thnx. for the cloth i mudboxed everything. i still want to do a finer detail pass in zbrush, but i need to move on for now and come back to that.

hopefully there will be another update later today

CaptainNimoy
06-25-2007, 01:56 PM
looking really good! The face is looking spot on, but theres something not quite right about the eyes. I think fords might be a tad smaller and eyebrows more straight (broody like). Also the hands look more desaturated from the head.

looking forward to seeing the hair :)

RedRepublik
06-25-2007, 08:48 PM
the chest hair experiment isn't going so well. with the hair and fur modifier, i either get way too much shadow or none at all. and i don't know how i am going to use that modifier to make his head hair. i am trying to get a copy of hairfx or something better than the standard. here is the latest image. the one on the left is straight from MR, and the one on the right has hair from a han photo composited on top, plus some proportion changed using liquify. now i can go back and execute those changes in the model.
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1011/comparega3.jpg

ngrava
06-26-2007, 12:58 AM
Harrison Ford... Dead on! No mistaking him. That's probably one of the best models I've seen. Simply outstanding. I do have one critique: The boot are way to loose and bulky. I know that's the style now a days and all, but his boots where always slender and fitted.
http://www.blizzplanet.com/coppermine/albums/my-stuff/han-solo.jpg

PKT
06-26-2007, 09:54 AM
Thats not a scruffy looking nerf herder at all.
One of the best entries.

Firerbert
06-26-2007, 12:06 PM
OMF!
AWESOME MAN!
I can't wait to see your Greedo!:scream:
At this point, (for the hair) I would say you are better off just making some geometry and using alpha textures. You WILL loose a lot of time screwing around on the 3dhair solution.
On the chest hair, just paint that junk in and make a specular channel for it added onto your specular map. Don't mess around with fur. I've found fur really only works well for fur and nothing else other than grass. I've seen other people use it for other things and make it work well, keep in mind it's a modeling challenge and you're kicking butt. Don't get lost in all the nonsense. Find a quick workaround and move on.

brender
06-26-2007, 01:52 PM
HOLY FREAKIN CRAP that is amazing one of the best work i have ever seen.

RedRepublik
06-26-2007, 04:14 PM
thanks for the comments guys.

firerbert, i think you are right. i will mess with hair after the comp, but for now i will do planes with alpha. i really want to get to greedo.

darklopium83
06-26-2007, 04:43 PM
woww man you done a grat job, i love it, one of the best entry for sure!
looks very good, didi you used zbrush 3.0 and the material capture for is face, is really really great??!!

Whyst
06-27-2007, 11:32 PM
greedo greedo hurry! =) hehehe han's looking great! :thumbsup: i mean really wow O_O are you going to set them in the cantina scene?

RedRepublik
06-28-2007, 01:48 AM
lopium: thanks for the kind words. the face was done in mudbox and zbrush 2 (i don't have 3 yet) i tried to use harrison ford photos as a start for the texture, but the reference i have is very shadowy, so i ended up using 3dsk photos as a base texture.

whyst: i'm trying to get to greedo! this is e3 crunch week though. i want to put them at the table in the cantina, which is a very simple environment, so hopefully it won't cause too much pain tot make. hopfully an update on friday...

Airflow
06-28-2007, 06:25 AM
Its looking great, keep going!

simjoy
06-28-2007, 02:57 PM
Yeah, what airflow said ...

keep it up ...

Logan779
06-29-2007, 01:33 AM
Im trawling away here looking at your progress, what an amazing job, the attention to detail and meticulous craftmanship is breathtaking.

He looks more HanSolo than HanSolo ever did ! :)

Firerbert
07-02-2007, 01:20 PM
Come on Red, need an update here buddy.:shrug:

RedRepublik
07-02-2007, 11:46 PM
omg sorry for the hiatus. e3 crunch has been killing me. thanks for all the comments. i finally got around to starting greedo but he has a long way to go...

i started from a cube in mudbox, put in about 20 minutes of sculpting to get the rough shape, then exported that to max and polyboosted a better mesh around it, then i took it back into mudbox and detailed it. normally from here i would take it to zbrush for a final detail pass, but i don't have time. i just need to rely on the texture for finer details. oh yeah i guess i need to add his little hair thingies too. damn you E3!
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/4594/meshmb8.jpg
hopefully a better greedo update soon

Firerbert
07-03-2007, 12:51 AM
See man, all the more reason to get Z3! You could have totally skipped the polyboost step you took and just retopologized in Zbrush. I'm not a firm believer in the new topo tools. Personally I think it's kinda user lazy. I would have taken your route, but given the time frame, it really could have sped things up a bit for ya. He's lookin good. Keep in mind the angle of your final render It could save your time for modeling Greedo. If all else fails, you could just focus straight on Han and make a good pose out of him and create a backplate. Something to keep in mind with all of life's background noise going on. I know how hectic it can get. Just plan ahead and you'll get it done!:thumbsup:

Whyst
07-03-2007, 09:50 AM
yay greedo! =) wow he's looking awesome already :thumbsup:

RedRepublik
07-03-2007, 09:51 PM
firerbert: yes i will get zbrush 3 some day. all i hear is good things
wyst: thanks, i didn't know if i would get to greedo, but i am glad that i can spend a little bit of time on him.

here is a texture update.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3152/headts0.jpg

eRKK
07-03-2007, 10:22 PM
Ohhh.... Keep 'em comin'! Lookin' nice!

octopus7
07-03-2007, 11:16 PM
Greedo looks fantastic! great work

PKT
07-03-2007, 11:20 PM
That looks awsome man.

Firerbert
07-04-2007, 03:22 AM
he's perfect! :thumbsup:

Whyst
07-04-2007, 03:45 AM
:eek: wow that's amazing and in such a short time!

yencaray
07-04-2007, 04:35 AM
good work with the textures and shaders!

Airflow
07-05-2007, 11:48 PM
Damn, Im out of it for a few days and everybody has got delusions of grandeur...
Beautiful, I might have to change my vote if you keep it up....

zenonithus
07-06-2007, 11:54 AM
greedo's looking great! Han too, but Hans eye area still needs tweaking if you get the time. Think it's the eyebrows and the side of the forhead looks too pronounced. alltogether makes him look a bit menacing like the vampires from buffy ;)

good stuff!

RedRepublik
07-10-2007, 12:12 AM
hmm well i have been on vacation for 5 days, so i didn't get nearly as far as i had hoped. i am about to post my finals on here and the final entry thread. there is so much more i want to work on...but that will have to wait. thanks for all the comments and critiques. final images coming shortly...

RedRepublik
07-10-2007, 12:15 AM
final textured model (wish i had time to pose it)
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/1488/jmhan4viewsfh9.jpg

RedRepublik
07-10-2007, 12:16 AM
orthographic views
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6454/jmhanorthoez8.jpg

Yav
07-10-2007, 12:29 AM
Fantastic work!

RedRepublik
07-10-2007, 12:55 AM
beauty image. no time for photoshop tweaks :(

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6464/jmhanbeautyud2.jpg

Airflow
07-10-2007, 01:21 AM
Real nice buddy.... Real nice.

sapienz
07-10-2007, 01:26 AM
Hans looking great, too bad you couldn't figure out some nicer hair..
can spot some floating hair mesh around.
Other than that this is 1 of the better modelling around.
i must really take some time to learn zbrush/mudbox...
i saw your dominance war entry some time back, i must say i'm impressed...

John-S
07-10-2007, 02:05 AM
Awesome modeling! Love the renders also...

Will be cool if you get time to pose him and throw him in a scene at some point.

shadowman99
07-10-2007, 02:19 AM
Awesome work on Han, but you should Z-brush that hair.

Excellent Greedo.

Firerbert
07-10-2007, 02:52 AM
Looks good. Get Z3 man, you would have really been able to pull this whole thing off with a HUGE bang, especially with the new sculpting tools and transpose. I've had a few probs with Z3 but it all takes time to get used to the app. Looks totally awesome though. I'll be rootin for ya.

Logan779
07-10-2007, 11:28 AM
Greedo is so good you can almost see the perspiration come out of those bubbly skin features.
Hans great too, you know its Harrison without a doubt, detailings great too, well done :)

rustyboi
07-11-2007, 10:28 AM
what happened to greedo in the end?
Nice modelling on han's clothings
Airflow gets the nicest pants and you get the nicest vest.

antodonnell
07-14-2007, 11:43 PM
Hans awesome really great work. yeah the hair needs a bit more TLC but when your time frees up you can finish it. :thumbsup:

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07-14-2007, 11:43 PM
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