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Tommi
03-16-2003, 10:49 PM
Are there finally any plans for a totally different and hopefully better real render engine for Blender?
Plans for Renderman output had been there. Since BMRT does no more exist (at least for free), will this feature still be implemented?

Mazer
03-16-2003, 10:58 PM
Well I just played aroud abit with blender, but it can export rib usig script, so you render in any renderman compliant renderer like 3delight or aqsis, virtualight also wors with it, and there is a new raytrac er I cant remember the name. Lots of options... Humm I may give-it a serious try now that I think of it...

oden
03-16-2003, 11:01 PM
there are codingefforts for built in support for Renderman complient render, but that is only at very early stage, and it doesn't work properly either...when fully working, it will be probably, so it is only at developing stage, but when it work, it will probabably be released in a official release of some future version...but as for now...

the best way to use Raytracer for Blender would be YaFray/Yable together, it is a free raytracer and the raytracer that has best support for Blender, read about it here:

http://www.coala.uniovi.es/~jandro/noname/

just look at those renders !!!


yours,
ztonzy

Chris
03-16-2003, 11:03 PM
I've been playing around with Yafray, it is still in very early stages - but it produces nice quality images, & quickly. :thumbsup: The development seems to be very fast too, I just hope they can keep up the momentum

dani
03-17-2003, 12:09 AM
I agree with what has been said.

Oh, don't forget POVANIM which exports ALL your animation to POVRAY,
JMsoler has done great efforts to make it compatible with as many povray and blender versions as possible.
get it here:
http://jmsoler.free.fr/util/blenderfile/povanim.htm

I would like to add that the scanline, even if I love it, could need some upgrading, and why not, implementing hybrid raytracing. But this would go with rewriting the material editor that is rather limited. You can do great stuff with a scanline renderer, it's very creative since you control everything. But i guess some automated task won't hurt anybody (auto reflection map... for example if not pure selective raytracing...)
Oh and better antialiasing.

A lot of work is being done and must be encouraged
Dani

JamesMK
03-17-2003, 12:13 AM
Hey Tommi, didn't think you would look into this too :D

The RIB-export will be great once it's done. The developer of that particular project is a very "perfection" type of guy, so it does not come along very quickly. I am sure though that it will be really excellent.

YafRay development is lightning fast. The plugin necessary to run it has, it seems, gotten a tad bit behind, put I think it's just a matter of weeks until the developers catch up. YafRay is still not mature, but getting there fast.

Aaand, to add, as long as you can do without raytrace feature, there's absolutely nothing (and I mean nothing) really wrong about the built-in scanliner. Just treat it right, and it will be nice to ya! ;)

harkyman
03-17-2003, 02:16 AM
One of the open source coding wizards has already expanded the renderer and is hard at work on more. Blender had been (and still is) using a Lambert/Phong model, but this coder put in an Orin/Nayar/Blinn model. You can use both in the same render, on a material by material basis.

He did this simply as a test for his upcoming plugin shading system.

You can read the full thread here:

http://www.blender.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1017&start=0

Or download a Windows binary of the implementation here:

http://hotlink.reblended.com/broken/tuhopuu/tuhopuu-2003-03-08-windows.zip

BTW, this binary is the Tuhopuu tree - an excellently cool experimental Blender version. It always has the latest hooha.

theeth
03-17-2003, 03:24 AM
I really like the per-material implementation that Cessen used for his shaders in Tuhopuu. I think it's really better that way than a global implementation, since you can mix different type of lighting systems in the same scene (a cartoon character in a Blinn scene for example).

I don't know precisly the status of the RIB export, but if you are seriously interested, you can drop in #blendersauce on openproject.org (IRC) and ask Green. Or just connect to the Tuhopuu cvs and compile.

Martin

Tommi
03-17-2003, 11:32 AM
:D Thanks so far for all the replies - some of the links don't work. Seems like the servers are down. I'll give it a try later.

Erm... James - I'm going to be here regularly, because I learnt 3D with Blender and did my first steps with it.
And I just took a short look at some of my Blender works yesterday... :blush: --- erm... well...
The scanline renderer... yes I also like this thing due to its render speed.
But it is way too hard to get sufficient results and some things are almost impossible to do with the current render engine. Refraction for example.
That's the difference from my point of view between Lightwave and Blender :p , that I instantly got good render results with LW even though I didn't really know what I did.
First renderings in Blender... well... I suspect we all made the same first render in Blender... an entirely black frame.

JamesMK
03-19-2003, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by Tommi
Erm... James - I'm going to be here regularly, because I learnt 3D with Blender and did my first steps with it.

So did I. Tried some steps elsewhere, but I didn't like it. Wings is the only important thing I've added to my toolbox since I started doing 3D about 3 years ago.
And I just took a short look at some of my Blender works yesterday... :blush: --- erm... well...
Well, all early Blender works look the same :D It's scary, yet amusing!
The scanline renderer... yes I also like this thing due to its render speed. But it is way too hard to get sufficient results and some things are almost impossible to do with the current render engine. Refraction for example.
Agreed. Refraction can be faked with some success (mainly using Z-inverted environment maps with some distorted scaling) but it's not on par with the real thing. Real reflections is also very difficult. But there is always the YafRay way of doing things. I bet integration will be incredibly good given some time...
That's the difference from my point of view between Lightwave and Blender :p , that I instantly got good render results with LW even though I didn't really know what I did.
That's funny. The first thing that happened to me in LW was "Ack. This render looks exactly like a mediocre Blender render. It just needed twice the time to complete...wtf?":D
First renderings in Blender... well... I suspect we all made the same first render in Blender... an entirely black frame.
:D LOL, you're right about that one!

StratoS
03-19-2003, 01:12 PM
Personally i think it's good that blender doesn't give you great looking renders by default.

it forces you to learn a bit more and to do a bit more.
i could make a shitty object and export it to yafray and it would great.

but does that make me a great modler and 3d artist?

Mazer
03-19-2003, 02:28 PM
:surprised

Well, Stratos you can also use Povray to model a full character, just coding... that would be something special...
If Blender whants to be a real production tool it must overcome all those shortcomings, the fact is that using Blender for real work, with money and deathlines invoved, is still impossible... If that doesn't change, it will remain just a toy for some strange persons, but not a usable tool.

JamesMK
03-19-2003, 04:48 PM
StratoS and Mazer - You both have very good points, though from very different perspectives.

It's good not to get anything for free, in terms of rendering and modeling quality - because it does in fact force you to learn the fundamental things - on the other hand, in a commercial context, you really need those quick-and-magical solutions provided by high-end (expensive) applications.

Blender doesn't really fit in a well defined category. It's far, far beyond other comparable free alternatives (by comparable I mean integrated modeling/rendering/animation/compositing) but it's also quite far from the high-end stuff.

Let's see what happens... The Open Source initiative has so far only released one version, mainly the result of lots of people trying to make it compile in an orderly fashion. Once we're beyond that, lots of cool things may happen.

Mazer
03-19-2003, 07:09 PM
Blender is not the only app that forces you to learn and work, in terms of render, I am quite familiar with Maya and to get good results from the defauld renderer, you have to learn alot. Newbies in fact tend to say that the renderer sucks... it doesn't, but you have to learn how to use-it, the same can be said for Max, only xsi and lw have "prety" default settings.
The diference is that even if you have to work for it, the power is there, they are production ready.
Blender unfortunately is not yet production ready, if it whas mutch more people would learn-it and use-it, but you cant name a studio, a successfull freelance, etc..., something real, that uses Blender;Like The studios using Film Gimp or Gimp for instance,that's because its not ready yet, and it will take some time to be considered usable. Until then Blender will still be a tool for weird people ,the others will keep saying: Its too hard to learn and dont worth the time, I'll never make any profit from the time spent learning...
It's sad but thrue:shrug:

StratoS
03-19-2003, 07:57 PM
actualy (and believe me this isn't ment seriously but just to prove you wrong)

there are many people who use gimp as a commercial tool.
(mostly freelance web designers though)

and i've also saw someone around elysiun who used blender as his tool for making commercialy aimed products.
(forgot who he was though. but if you like i can search)

JamesMK
03-19-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by StratoS
and i've also saw someone around elysiun who used blender as his tool for making commercialy aimed products.
(forgot who he was though. but if you like i can search)

I think you are referring to David Weese.

http://www.elysiun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9934

Mazer
03-19-2003, 08:41 PM
there are many people who use gimp as a commercial tool

Of course, its exactly what I was saying, sorry my english isn't very clear sometimes:shrug:

I whas trying to state the diference between Blender and gimp acceptance in the professional pipelines, one example for Blender is something, congratulations to the artist but unfortunatly he is very much lonely... plus I wouldn't be surprised if he jumped to a comercial app when he can...

Chris
03-19-2003, 09:38 PM
I think it depends on what you do, I work in a small studio here in Wellington NZ, we mainly do TV work, commercials, documentary's & the like. I do the motion graphics, compositing, visual effects etc with Combustion.

We've been noticing more call for 3D content from our clients & were planning on getting 3D studio Max (to compliment combustion). I downloaded Blender a month or 2 ago & have decided to flag buying Max, Blender can cope with all the jobs I need it to. I've so far done content for a TVC, I've used the particles for an 'exploding head' for the final scene in a short film, & am using it for the intro sequence of a documentary... :thumbsup:

StratoS
03-19-2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Mazer
Of course, its exactly what I was saying, sorry my english isn't very clear sometimes:shrug:

I whas trying to state the diference between Blender and gimp acceptance in the professional pipelines, one example for Blender is something, congratulations to the artist but unfortunatly he is very much lonely... plus I wouldn't be surprised if he jumped to a comercial app when he can...

you might be right but i hope you underestimate the open source side of Blender.
becouse of the fact that Blender is open source there now are 3 reasons to consider sticking too blender.
-you just like blender more then the rest.
and the news ones
-it's open source if you want something you can either add it yourself, let it be added by a third party or contact the developers personaly.
-a moralistic standpoint towards a over commercialised world.

(please note the use of the words 'might' and 'hope' in my text. i put them there for a reason ;) )

theeth
03-20-2003, 02:08 AM
Blender was also used commercially for a couple of publicity spots on TV in the Netherlands and in some parts of a child animated series.

Of course, all the work done commercially by NeoGeo was done using Blender (that is, after first worked on Blender in the 90s).

Martin

Apollux
03-20-2003, 03:59 AM
On a side subject, what happened to NeoGeo as a company? It turned into NaN or it was shut down? Are they still around?

I think most people around the blender community only knows about NeoGeo that it was an animation studio on the Netherlands, they created Blender as an in-house product, made some commercial products with it, released it for free (well... there was the C-Key thing) and that's it!! That was the last time we heard from them.

Ton was the president of NeoGeo as well?

theeth
03-20-2003, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by Apollux
(1)On a side subject, what happened to NeoGeo as a company? It turned into NaN or it was shut down? Are they still around?

(2)Ton was the president of NeoGeo as well?

(1) It turned into NaN. I don't know what the technicalities are, but I guess that pretty much describes it.

(2) Nope, he was responsible for internal tools developement and he was responsible for the artistic direction (not to sure about the last one though).

Martin

Apollux
03-20-2003, 04:26 AM
thanks for the info.... I'm very corious, so may I ask?

From the true founders of Blender, besides Ton, who else is still around ?

and... where you (Martin) one of them?

theeth
03-21-2003, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by Apollux
From the true founders of Blender, besides Ton, who else is still around ?

Joeri and Frank are from NeoGeo along with Ton (if I remember correctly). They both worked with NaN and show up once in a while in the community.

Originally posted by Apollux
and... where you (Martin) one of them?
nope, I'm not that old :D

Martin

luckybreak
04-04-2003, 01:21 AM
I know it not quite the point (blender as part of professional pipelines) but last week I made AU $1300 bucks from Blender.
I created a series of character driven illustrations for a book/CDROM. Blender allowed me to create the one off work in 3d since I cant (financialy) justify buying expensive software.
Its small fry I know but still
LB

stephen2002
04-06-2003, 10:01 PM
I've made a fair amount from Blender creating graphics for an introduction to a play (it never went into production but I still got paid for making the intro):

http://rendermonitor.no-ip.com/content.php?t=childrens


and graphics for ERA Real-Estate's e-campus:

http://rendermonitor.no-ip.com/content.php?t=palm

These are live on the web and used by many.

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