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View Full Version : should I support VUE for you ? --renderfarm--


QuakeMarine1
05-21-2007, 01:42 PM
hi guys

I am admin from europs biggest renderfarm - I play with the idea to support VUE6 for
-maya
-cinema
-3dsmax
-lightwave
-normal vue

what would you say to a price of 0,30€cent per GHZ hour ?
specs here 600ghz - 64 bit - 2Gb ram

how this offer sounds ?

grz Farmer

Lex1968
05-22-2007, 02:06 AM
Could you tell me which renderfarm?

QuakeMarine1
05-22-2007, 08:08 AM
www.rebusfarm.com

stalkeron
05-22-2007, 08:58 AM
Hi,

It would be nice, there aren't many places that support Vue so far, as far as I know.

http://www.ranchcomputing.com - there is this exclusive vue6 farm but it's under maintanance from time to time.

The price seems ok, but could you please make a benchmark using VueMark on your renderfarm and post the score here so people could better comprehend the power of the farm regarding Vue?

Also, please take into account the option of using Cornucopia3D plants and protected items in rendering on your farm.

Hope you'll add Vue6 and xStream to the farm in the future...

QuakeMarine1
05-22-2007, 10:17 AM
VueMark for the farm is all in all ~22000

QuakeMarine1
05-22-2007, 12:20 PM
as far I see my price whould be 30% - comparing to my business rivals

hm ...


what plugins do exist for VUE beside Cornucopia3D ?
what is often in use?
what stalkeron means with "protected items "

stalkeron
05-23-2007, 12:20 AM
I guess you mean your price would be 30% lower. Still, their price is not low at all. Don't know how many people use the farm, I don't think that they have a lot of clients, just my opinion, never got to render at their farm because my projects are still under construction but I saw 2 times that there was no one waiting on the list to render so the farm was just sitting idly. I guess 0.5Ecent would be a fair price and an upper threshold, of course I wish it was free of charge:)

Second - the items from Cornucopia3d are not plugins - just plants and objects that can be bought by Vue users from C3D and made especially for vue. Some of them are copy protected, which means e.g a plant can't be rendered on the renderfarm although the user has it in his original file if the farm doesn't have that plant. The RANCH renderfarm includes the ability to render all copy protected plants - which is a must have for most Vue users.

Third - often in use are: the normal standalone version of Vue6 Infinite and the xStream version of Vue - xStream version consists of the Infinite Version plus xStream plugin integration capabilities for Maya, Max, Lightwave, XSI

Fourth: your VueMark is about the same of that of the RANCH renderfarm, perhaps a bit lower. Mine is around 680 and I have a dual dual core workstation - that is 4 cores at 3GHz and 8gigs of RAM.

Hope this helps. Pls keep me informed on your decision to include Vue on the farm

QuakeMarine1
05-23-2007, 04:49 AM
I cant agree
I was playing with the cost estimator and that tells I am 70% cheaper and 4 times faster
anyway
that post was not made to flame my competitors

let me go back to the copy protected files
if a client comes to render and use one of this files - what can I do ?
I guess its impossible to buy all existing or do just exist a hand full ?
Cant the client simply send me the file and I past it into the Vue folder?
do exist different versions from the content files - I mean clinet has PlantX inside so it is the same as my PlantX?

if that all sound stupid -sorry for that but I am very new to vue and try to get an overvue

RenderFred
05-23-2007, 06:21 AM
Hi everyone,

Fred here, designer of the VueMark and admin/creator of the RANCH renderfarm. I don't want to hijack this thread, just to put a few things right :

- in theory, more renderfarms rendering Vue projects is good for everyone. More choice for the users, more credibility in the professional world for Vue -> good. Plus, we don't render xStream+other software (max, lw, etc), by choice, but exclusively Vue 5/6 scenes. So a renderfarm offering xStream support would have its use obviously.

- the VueMark can't be directly applied to renderfarm benchmarking, nor was it designed to. It is a Python script designed to run on _one_ computer, and you can't extrapolate numbers simply by multiplying by a number of machines or GHz and get a VueMark for a renderfarm. The performance of a renderfarm can only be measured with a real project, and must take into account the time from when you send the scene, to the time when you can get back your images.

- Price. Our regular price is $0.30 per GHz per hour. Currently, that is 0.22 € per GHz per hour. And this month (until May 31st), for our exceptional hobbyist month, it is between 5 and 6 cents per GHz per hour... With our system, each project gets a 160 GHz processing power, every time, so until may 31st it is $9 per hour for a serious processing power (quad core Extreme nodes).

- we can do low prices because our system is _entirely automated_. The farm runs 24/24, without any human intervention (except customer support of course). And for performance and ease of use, I will let our customers speak for ourselves (http://www.ranchcomputing.com/temoignages_uk.htm).

- to stalkeron, the RANCH is very rarely in maintenance, it has occurred a few times like for any other renderfarm, the last time was when we upgraded to a 100 Mbits/s symmetrical internet bandwidth (fiber optics). Now you can download your files at several megabytes per second (if you have the download bandwidth yourself of course).

- to quakemarine1, Vue renderfarming is a complex subject, particularly if you are not a Vue expert. You'll find that things work differently than with other software you are familiar with. But then again, we don't mind the competition at all, and wish you good luck if you want to offer a Vue rendering service.

Fred

RANCH Computing

Wabe
05-23-2007, 06:28 AM
I don't think there can be much done against copy-protected items other than own them or do not allow them for render jobs. And even owning would need some manual linking to your copies as startup. No automation as far as I know.

Even worse are other things.

#1 is that you can save Vue scenes and objects without embedding the textures.

#2 When you render animations and there is an imported Poser animation
Vue needs the pz3 file still - with the animation files (.dyn) that Poser saves. Tricky.

#3 Even when someone imported a Poser object and keeps the allow reposing or use Poser shader tree on you need the Poser items and the pz3 files.

A lot of things to think about and a lot of necessary restrictions.

RenderFred
05-23-2007, 06:32 AM
Hi Wabe,

just to clarify : the RANCH supports copy protected items from C3D in a totally automated way. There is no difference from the customer's point of view.

QuakeMarine1
05-23-2007, 06:56 AM
hi fred
are u sure your cost estimator works correct
if I use (AMD X2 3800) a vueMark of 220 for 30 frames of 60 min you charge 550
if you have the same price per ghz hour as me it should be 95

I am wrong with the vue mark?

RenderFred
05-23-2007, 07:00 AM
No the VueMark is good but you entered 60 hours in the second field :)

You must enter 01:00 (see the hh:mm format for hour:minute)

and then... surprise :)

QuakeMarine1
05-23-2007, 10:09 AM
yes thats better

you should have 2 fields - one for hour one for minutes - the current is a bit confusing

;)

RenderFred
05-23-2007, 10:22 AM
Ah... of course one must read the signs just after the field, but you're the first to find it confusing ;) Of course if a lot of people find it confusing we'll change it, but it does not seem to be the case :)

Flog
05-23-2007, 11:41 PM
wow it says my project would take 218,000 dollars

I might as well buy me 20 desktops to render for 20,000 dollars!
Ouch!

Sorry not for me unless I'm calculating wrong
Avg scene render time 10 min - 24 fpsx60x75 minutes = ouch!

Okay maybe my calculation was off, it ended up being $19,000

RenderFred
05-24-2007, 08:21 AM
Flog,
1) What is your VueMark ?
2) So you have a 108000 frames Vue project to render ?
3) Ouch.
;)

stalkeron
05-24-2007, 09:00 AM
Hi,

to renderfred: I was wondering when you would drop by:) Since you did. I might have made a confusion on the maintanance thing, just now I tried to access the farm and saw that my bookmark was somehow put on the .travaux.php page:( so that is sorted out, I guess it's my bad but the confusion is that once on that page none of the other butons work. So i appologize, maybe other times it happened the same.

Sorry I have to miss the special offer this month, but my projects are not quite ready yet, and unfortunatelly some of them can't be rendered on the farm.

This brings me to the RAM related issues. The computers on the RANCH farm have 2 gigs of RAM and of course render in the external mode so it takes less memory than it does me at home rendering on screen.

Let's say I test render a bunch of frames using the standalone renderer to see if there are any problems in overstepping 2Gigs of ram and it works fine. Still, what happens if at one frame in the middle of the animation the 2Gigs of Ram are not met? Does the farm generate an error and aborts all the animation? Does it move to the next frame?

Is there any software out there that limits my amount of RAM (I have 8gigs and don't want to manually remove them from the computer)?

Is there any chance to increase the RAM on the computers in this year?:) Displacement takes a lot of RAM. Also, could a file that takes a big amount of RAM(in the case of displacement) also use a smaller amount to the fullest somehow on the farm?

I understood that if you have a file over 100Mb or 100 frames there is no preview rendered? So I have to make a separate project for that? Is it possible to restrict just the nr of frames and not the file size regarding the preview?

I have some very large files and had some problems with compression. On a particular large file of 17Gb(you heard me right) I used the compression and made it 80Mb! But when i tried to load it never could, it just froze... any thoughts on that?

Another special issue: let's say I have a scene with 5 cameras and need to render them all. Currently I have to upload that scene 5 times, each time set on a different cam. Currently there is NO python function/command to change the output path and even if it was I couldn't do that on the server. what do you think?

I know there are a lot of questions... thanks

RenderFred
05-24-2007, 09:26 AM
Hi stalkeron,

Still, what happens if at one frame in the middle of the animation the 2Gigs of Ram are not met? Does the farm generate an error and aborts all the animation? Does it move to the next frame?

In theory Vue now works better with virtual memory so what would occur is swapping on hard disk -> performance will go down but it should be able to follow on. Unless the rendercows crash and this is the end of the world (well of the project) :)


Is there any software out there that limits my amount of RAM (I have 8gigs and don't want to manually remove them from the computer)?

Unfortunately I don't know of any (which doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).


Is there any chance to increase the RAM on the computers in this year?:) Displacement takes a lot of RAM. Also, could a file that takes a big amount of RAM(in the case of displacement) also use a smaller amount to the fullest somehow on the farm?

It all depends on the demand. As you imagine upgrading everything from 2 GB to, say, 4 GB is costly, and at the moment only two customers (you included) asked for more than 2 GB, which is a very small % of the projects we rendered. Of course if you plan to render a lot of very heavy/long projects, we might consider upgrading just for you :) Displacement takes a lot of ram indeed, and it would not take less on the farm.


I understood that if you have a file over 100Mb or 100 frames there is no preview rendered? So I have to make a separate project for that? Is it possible to restrict just the nr of frames and not the file size regarding the preview?

There is no preview if the scene is > 100 MB or if the Quality Boost is > +0.0. But the number of frames is not a problem. The preview always render about 10 frames in very low res, it is mostly used to check that there are no big errors in the scene (missing objects, etc.). We limit this because we don't want the preview to take a long time, and big scenes can take a while to load on the entire farm (the time used to render the preview is free for the customer, it is not counted in the total time).

I have some very large files and had some problems with compression. On a particular large file of 17Gb(you heard me right) I used the compression and made it 80Mb! But when i tried to load it never could, it just froze... any thoughts on that?

Yes I believe that Vue will not be able to compress files > 4 GB correctly. A 17 GB scene is probably pushing it too much. Still this is an insane size :)

Another special issue: let's say I have a scene with 5 cameras and need to render them all. Currently I have to upload that scene 5 times, each time set on a different cam. Currently there is NO python function/command to change the output path and even if it was I couldn't do that on the server. what do you think?

Maybe you could add each camera path one after the other in the animation ?

chippwalters
05-27-2007, 02:33 AM
let me go back to the copy protected files
if a client comes to render and use one of this files - what can I do ?

I would suggest you contact e-on software directly as I believe they can make special provisions for 'farm renderers' concerning copy protected objects and materials.

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