Strange crit

[Agent D]

Yes, your SubD method certainly looks better, and I have no idea why someone would say otherwise.. :confused:
Well, good work. Both models look quite good by the way.

[Joel Hooks]

somebody would say otherwise if they were a troll. :)

NURBS serve a purpose, but the detailing in the SubD version is definitely superior.

[rendermonkey23]

Ouch :)

Stahl.... definitely the second man. Nice job.

[Wiro]

Yup. gotta aggree with that. Very very nice subd model there Steven.
Maybe he just has a better impression of the old one because you made some stunning pics with her. To me the bikergirl is still one of my all time favorites.

Maybe this is the problem...you've spent so much time on perfecting her that you've neglected spoling us with some cool sci fi stuff again :)

Wiro

[James Lang]

Yup, Steve

that is a nicer model to the original one (body wise), I personally think your heads were 10 times better when you did them via the nurbs way, I looked at some of your more recent subd 'tests' and they utterly didn't have the same appeal, I was mostly put off by the strange muscle structure you put into the foreheads, etc, and I really didn't like the way you did the 'sunken' tear ducts on your subd models, ultimately they lacked realism for me, and although the previous versions were stylised somewhat (i.e. not realistic) they had much more appeal.

As for the animations - the one where she shouts 'bastard' or something - you were being made out to be some sort of animation maestro - far from it - the whole head movement - lip sync - everything about it was mechanical and dull - in essense - your animation had no 'life' to it. It looked like you had set up some blendshapes in Maya and ran them through the motions without actually thinking about 'smoothness' or how it would play back to the user - did you even proof check it?! Ulitimately it reminded me of Ray Harryhausen's claymation work.

BTW - I'm not a troll - I'm just someone who believes in the freedom of speech and being allowed to say what I think, just think, without people like (who don't think your god - just another good artist) me, you'd wouldn't progress without indepth criticism. Be aware all, cause from now on, I'm going to call it exactly how it is, your gonna post shit work, I'm going to tell you it's shit, if you post good work - you'll not hear from me.

:p

[The Magic Pen]

AWsome as always Steven !! :eek: :eek:

[zen]

ive noticed that there is a certain age group or "generation" in 3d that is just nurbs biased all the way. They want nothing to do with nurbs and if you use poly your just a gamer or hobbyist.

Personnally i find subd's have rendered nurbs, as far as organic modelling goes, all but obsolete. As soon as i started using them, there was just no point to nurbs anymore!

i love da subds!!!!

[Joel Hooks]

Originally posted by James Lang
BTW - I'm not a troll - I'm just someone who believes in the freedom of speech and being allowed to say what I think, just think, without people like (who don't think your god - just another good artist) me, you'd wouldn't progress without indepth criticism. Be aware all, cause from now on, I'm going to call it exactly how it is, your gonna post shit work, I'm going to tell you it's shit, if you post good work - you'll not hear from me.

:p

You're a troll. Non-constructive critisisms with little to add to the actual conversation - in the context of this forum, you = troll.


I found the characters dull and unispiriing
the old woman has to be the crappest thing I've seen
I'm saddened to see 3d artists the likes of rene being made out to be some sort of 3d gods
if the market wasn't flooded with so much piracy and students with no bloody art skill to start off (here's another head - done with no reference - etc, etc)
on a personal note, but not meant as a stab at you
I personally don't think your new models (subd ones) are anywhere near as good as your original nurbs models.


Like you say, free speech is wonderful, but don't deny your true nature.

(PS - it would be neat to see what kinds of kickass animation tests you've done using reference materials, got link? :rolleyes: )

[blc318]

Couldnt it be that you have got better over the years?

Do you think you could go back to doing nurbs and improve on the old model?

[Wiro]

Hm..I must say I've been a bit put off by all the oohs and aaahs and backpatting but little crits (pos or neg) from people lately in these forums and always find it fresh to see some more "hard" crits but you're taking it a bit far into the other direction don't you think?
We only hear from you if something is bad, otherwise not at all? You don't feel like giving some praise where appropriate?

Wiro

[James Lang]

Originally posted by lowdown


You're a troll. Non-constructive critisisms with little to add to the actual conversation - in the context of this forum, you = troll.


I found the characters dull and unispiriing
the old woman has to be the crappest thing I've seen
I'm saddened to see 3d artists the likes of rene being made out to be some sort of 3d gods
if the market wasn't flooded with so much piracy and students with no bloody art skill to start off (here's another head - done with no reference - etc, etc)
on a personal note, but not meant as a stab at you
I personally don't think your new models (subd ones) are anywhere near as good as your original nurbs models.


Like you say, free speech is wonderful, but don't deny your true nature.

(PS - it would be neat to see what kinds of kickass animation tests you've done using reference materials, got link? :rolleyes: )

Do I really need to justify each and every point I made, they can all be seen as 'contructive' criticism as well, depending on whether you look at them with a negative or positive outlook - how you interepret the comments is up to you - the user - so please don't come preaching trying to make yourself look good in front of Steve Stalhberg - his ego won't be able to take it for much longer. Artists as a whole are usually the most ego-led bunch of people in existence today - everything they produce 'must' be complimented, and jeez, what if they get 1 negative comment - argh - all hell breaks loose - the whole forum is enititled - CRITIQUE - and as such - should only hold negative comments for the user to help them improve each and every time - otherwise they simply won't - if every time Stahlberg produces something 3d Related and the fanboys can't help themselves and heap praise upon praise upon him - how will he ever improve even further?

Now go back to the valley......
:annoyed:

[rondo]

It seems to me that a crit is to help someone improve a work, not to break them down and say "this is shit" and point out every flaw with no input on how to improve. "This is shit" is NOT a crit, it's an opinion.

Just a newbie speaking up ... and no, I don't have anything posted. Tho I wish I did so you could call it shit.

BTW, Steven... I like the second one too.

Lowdown .. Tell it like it is!! More power to you! Preach on!!

[James Lang]

Originally posted by Wiro
Hm..I must say I've been a bit put off by all the oohs and aaahs and backpatting but little crits (pos or neg) from people lately in these forums and always find it fresh to see some more "hard" crits but you're taking it a bit far into the other direction don't you think?
We only hear from you if something is bad, otherwise not at all? You don't feel like giving some praise where appropriate?

Wiro

hmm, didn't I mention :-

Brilliant Modelling and Brilliant Texturing - read my first post again - I was originally more annoyed on the whole with the 'wow, your the bestest ever':rolleyes: comments. And the fact that we're waiting many months inbetween - I hope you all realise when this is final - I'm pretty sure Rene intends to get his money's worth back in the form of some sort of online comic -which will cost YOU to view - and the first hype for amazon soul has passed away many months ago - and is in itself a shadow.

and what's more, I'm ROTFL that Stahlberg has to start a new thread just so he could showcase his models again (ego is everything, eh? ) - and entitle the thread 'Strange Crit', what's so strange - that I don't have any good comments like everyone else has - I can see the skill Steve - it's just that I can also see what's wrong.
:p

[lildragon]

James believe me I've seen peeps of your likes b4, and it's always identical, sure hard crits are welcomed BUT (keyword) give reasons why you think something sucks, keep in mind when you crit and give comments like you did it always seems negative to the artist, because you don't add a praise to something they did *do* right for


ie... I really don't like how the muscle structure along the thigh flows, but maybe you can shape this or shape that *get it*, but the overall shape of the leg is good, not that it's crap ,that's not constructive....

furturemore keep in mind the maturity level of this forum..

P.S. reason I said the first line is for one those who speak like you never have anything to show to back it up with and your profiles are always bogus or left blank.


cheers

[James Lang]

Originally posted by lildragon
James believe me I've seen peeps of your likes b4, and it's always identical, sure hard crits are welcomed BUT keyword give reasons why you think something sucks, keep in mind when you crit and give comments like you did it always seems negative to the artist, because you don't add a praise to something they did *do* right for

lildragon - You ain't seen nothing yet - I've seen your types come and go many, many times over the years - I've been involved in TV and FILM work for the last 15 years - the company I work for wouldn't approve of my opinions or suggestions - hence I'll not be producing any of MY work here for critique (convenient, eh? hey, at least I got a sense of humour)- and my spare time doesnt afford me the luxury of my own work - but I don't care about that because my work related stuff is seen all the time by many 1000's of ppl - and my spare time is devoted to my wife and children, and I'm happy with that.

I'm saddened to see what the 3d industry has become, anyone with a slightly better than average 3d skill is made out to be some sort of god-like figure, and what's left is crap, it truly is, you've all created a '3D State' where newbies and students post their work before there even finished - and they get nice compliments and nobody ever constructively critics the pieces - the main advice needing to be given usually is get some f**king reference material to work from - 15 years is a long time and I'm absolutely sick of seeing the recent phases of unfinished heads - or faces where the artist isn't capable of finishing it - and so it becomes a feckin' cyborg with wires :rolleyes: .

This trend will carry on unless we actually help one another properly with hard critique - I'd be hard pushed to hire most of you who post here if you came to me with a reel - remember there's always someone silent watching for talent - and like me, is seeing only a handful of artists these days who would be considered 'good' and trainable to be 'great'.

furturemore keep in mind the maturity level of this forum..

maturity - I bet the whole forums average age is 18-19 years old -I'm a bit older than that, :), and it's a PUBLIC forum, if I speak, I don't expect to be shot down for it, as it is my bloody opinion that I am giving and no - one elses.

:scream:

[lildragon]

as you said it is a public forum, so no need to get defensive. I read your reply and ok you don't like how things are going, but yet you fail to state how to make them better, and yes I do believe the age average is young, but the thing is they carry themselves well.


P.S. what is my type?

cheers

[rendermonkey23]

Sooooo... how bout them cubs?

[rondo]

The thing that attracted me to CG forum was the interaction between the newbies and the seasoned 3d'rs. I saw people with beginning skills collaborating with artists far above their abilites. Where else can you go for that? I got to "communicate" with the artist and give insight into character designs. Both of us learning form the other. PLUS working together despite continents, races, religions etc...

Sick of looking at the unfinished head? Then don't look. Everybody starts somewhere. If you don't want to give a newbie help, then dont. Someone else will. And they will inspire.

[zen]

jesus, what a jerk.

oh sorry...that wasnt constructive. k here goes:

james you are a jerk, but your overall opinion structure isnt all bad. You could fix this by taking a vacation or hot bath or something. :thumbsup:

[James Lang]

Originally posted by zen
jesus, what a jerk.

oh sorry...that wasnt constructive. k here goes:

james you are a jerk, but your overall opinion structure isnt all bad. You could fix this by taking a vacation or hot bath or something. :thumbsup:

see, now that's what I'm talking about, good hard critique, c'mon, more I say..... I can take it, but you haven't explained fully enough how I can improve my position as a jerk, what aspects can I work on, how can I refine my flow, I want to the best goddamn jerk there ever was....

:p

[M4Dn355]

Hot coals in the mouth work too =)
The model looks good... With a few tweaks it could be great :)

[Joel Hooks]

Originally posted by James Lang
so please don't come preaching trying to make yourself look good in front of Steve Stalhberg - his ego won't be able to take it for much longer. Artists as a whole are usually the most ego-led bunch of people in existence today - everything they produce 'must' be complimented, and jeez, what if they get 1 negative comment - argh - all hell breaks loose - the whole forum is enititled - CRITIQUE - and as such - should only hold negative comments for the user to help them improve each and every time - otherwise they simply won't - if every time Stahlberg produces something 3d Related and the fanboys can't help themselves and heap praise upon praise upon him - how will he ever improve even further?

Now go back to the valley......


"That is weak. Get some reference" hardly qualifies as a critique, and is certainly not a form of constructive criticism.

I could care less if I look good in front of Steven or not. What's he going to do for me?

Back when I was attending art classes, there was one instructor in particular that loved to just rank out people. "This is crap. You call this art? Trite nonsense." He would follow that with ideas on how to improve the piece, either through conception or technique. The overriding factor with this guy was his own artwork. It was phenomenal. He could back up his "this is crap" by showing what he himself could produce. That can be respected.

I post hard critique all the time. Nobody gets enraged, and not because my work is kickass, but because I try and follow the critique guidelines I was taught years ago. Compliment what they have done correctly, point out what you think is incorrect, and offer a suggestion on improving the incorrect area. It's an incredibly simple formula.

Like I have said, critique, especially soley negative kind, is hard to absorb when the person dishing it out hasn't shown a foundation or level of skill to qualify them to speak on the subject. I am sure you have done amazing TV and FILM work. :eek:

Why don't you just use this image for your critiques instead of wasting all that repetitive typing movement (you have my permission to use this concept for a tshirt and bumpersticker too):

[lildragon]

heheh :)

[James Lang]

lol, ur a funny mammal.

** EDIT **

when I talk about using reference - or even spending the time to do things correctly, check out this guy's recent posts - bloody luverly work : -

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4918

the toenails and heel wrinkles could do with a little work on the refinement stage, but still it's a great start.

and also this

http://www.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/19403.jpg

now believe it or not, this was this guys second ever model - created and rendered in Lightwave - previously from a design background - for him to get this far and at this sort of level amazes even me, truly an artists who deserves respect.

his site

http://www.martinmurphy.ca/

[parallax]

james lang
There's a difference between opinions, and hard undeniable facts.
I respect everyone's opinion, but please dont tell me the first model stahlberg made is better.
Look at it.
Look at it again.
The anatomy of the second model is far better, only the back has already improved vastly.
If you dont 'agree', please go look in the mirror, or search for some reference :p

ps.
When i clicked your profile, i already suspected you to be mr. mystery guest.:eek:
Guess your employee also prohibits you from exposing personal info.

[MadS]

I have been a big fan of Steven's old work. Although the newer SubD model is superior technically, I think that the face of the older model was "cuter". :) That's not to say that the older model was better, just more attractive in an aestheic sense imho(Damn, that sounds perverted). It seems like your newer models are getting closer to realism, and further away from what seemed to me to be "stylism" in your nurbs models.

My personal aim in my 3D character models is to go for realistic proportions but with my own style. Think of it like comicbook artists - The good ones have thier own signiature style, and thier artworks are recognized easily. My goal is to bring that same level of stylism to 3D. Paying attention to the form/outline/colors/composition to try and hit that personalized art that stands apart from the rest. It isn't easy! And I don't know if I have been successful in that respect yet, but it's my goal nonethless.

I do think that those who try to get true photorealism, on the other hand, are on a very ambitous track, and I have plenty of respect for that. But I feel that stylized art is much more appealing to me.

Steven, your new models and compositions do have plenty of style as they edge closer to photoreal so keep doing awesome work. Just don't lose sight of why we are making art. Not to replace humans, but to express ourselves through our work. We do this to set ourselves apart and to evoke a reaction from our audience to make it all seem worthwhile. Afterall, what is the point of creating a spectacle if there is no one around to acknowledge it?

Renee's test renders even have a style to them as well, and it appeals to me. You can still tell they aren't real people, and the day when we finally get to that point, it will be momentous on the one hand, but will also lose all of it's charm/mysticism as people get used to the "indistinguishible from real life" artwork. It will become so transparent, that it will lose all it's appeal imo.

So be it, I guess. It's the road less travelled for now that matters, and the human spirit's drive to achieve that which has not yet been attained. Now I'm REALLY starting to sound corny. :p

Peace Out!

p.s. Oh ya, and I agree 100% with Torbjorn0's post below mine. There is an etiquette involved in giving crits, I believe. Tact goes a long way these days... Try to be less beligerant, James, and more respectful. Thanks!

[TorbjornO]

I just have to chime in here and add my opinion to this thread, not because this one bothers me particularly much but rather because this is an attitude I've been noticing here and there on different forums. James, everyone is of course entitled to their opinion. You are of course entitled to not like Stahlberg's stuff. But the fact that you choose to express yourself the way you do just makes you come across really disrespectful. There is a way to be completely honest while being respectful. If this is the way you act in real life, I would never want to work with you.

I have friends who I trust to be completely and brutally honest with me. I like it, because a) it helps me improve and b) when they say they do like something I've done, I value their opinion more. But they are respectful. They tell me the things that they feel is wrong, and they don't try to act like they are the judges of what's universally good and bad in arts.

People in this forum are unusually easy to give out praise. I don't mind it, though I know it bugs some people. So then it seems we end up with these weak minds that have to rebell against this friendly forum. These individuals seems to think that it's only complete honesty when you say it with a slandering and ill-spirited tone. Psychologically I guess that makes sense. It's easier to believe that you are completely honest when you have nothing to gain from it (and in fact even loose by it by getting people angry at you).

But in my opinion, you're missing the point. You could of just pointed out to Stahlberg the things you don't like about his model. There was never any reason to disrespect him. You seem to insinuate that Stahlberg has somehow breed this group of people that admire his work and that Stahlberg is only seeking to satisfy his ego. I find that immensly unfair. It makes you ignorant because you're making stupid assumptions. I can admit that there is a chance that this might be the case, but assuming it as a fact is by definition ignorant.

Posting ill-spirited comments to Stahlberg because of other people posting lots of "fanboy" comments to him is as weak minded as those people who like an artist just because he's popular. You're both letting other people control your opinions and how you express them.

On a related note, I also find it funny how so many people want to be different in the same way. In my opinion it shouldn't matter how many or how few people like something; if you like it, you like it. Rebelling against something just for the sake of rebelling is just weak.

Toby

[lildragon]

hmm I think this has turned into a general discussions, moving ;)

cheers

[MadS]

Lowdown. Show me one artist that does not look for acceptance from his peers? And any artist that doesn't admit it is lying through his teeth. ;)

[James Lang]

Ok, here's MY opinion on his models (backed up with MY notes) : -

http://www.androidblues.com/blondface.JPG

this was the first image I ever saw from Stahlberg, although a little dated now, at the time it had everything, she was beautiful, she had style, she had charisma, a personality, but most of all she had 'life' to her, despite being slighlty 'doll-like'.

now, quickly moving on : -

http://www.androidblues.com/apriltest1.jpg

one of Steve's SUBD models, wtf, she looks like she has been hit in the middle of her forehead with a blunt instrument, the face seems flatter, the tear ducts - eye tie-in area doesn't look right, the nose doesn't look right, moving on again : -

http://www.androidblues.com/badguy.jpg

I mean, c'mon, you've got to be kidding, I've seen even newbies to the 3d realm do better than this, 1 and half out of 10 for imagination.... and modelling technique - the latter I'm surprised about considering how long Steve's being doing this for, I would've expected a lot better from him by now, but that's what happens when you concentrate on one thing and one thing only, you stagnate.

http://www.androidblues.com/maleface.jpg

hmm, what can I say (I'll avoid the obvious gay look and punchable face the guy has), lack of detail in the ears, still problematic eye/tear duct tie in area, *WHAT* is going on with that silly shape he keeps producing in the foreheads..?? I would've expected the skin texture to be a bit better by now, but it has progressed, must have discovered bump mapping in Maya.
The nose / cheek tie-in isn't well done either.

http://www.androidblues.com/ellentest2.jpg

hmm, what can I say, did she fall over - again - and bump her forehead?

http://www.androidblues.com/stool.jpg

now this one, can't really fault it, very nice, but is given away by the typical cg hair mass, some areas could do with refining, but overall great work.

REMEMBER - These ARE MY OPINIONS, and as such belong to me and it is my own god given right to express them.

Overall, I think Steve is still a great artist (heh, you wouldn't think so), but he's suffered from too much ego-stroking which has affected his work and his impact these days isn't as great as it used to be back in the day.

Good luck and good day.
:cool:

[MadS]

Umm James. You are really getting on my nerves now. It's obvious that you are just trying to get people all worked up. Everything you have pointed out of Steven's work is bogus. Stop being such a jerk, please. Must take a lot of guts to post anonymous insults. It sounds to me like you are just jealous and jaded. Admins: Please close this thread before it gets even worse.

[James Lang]

Originally posted by MadS
Umm James. You are really getting on my nerves now. It's obvious that you are just trying to get people all worked up. Everything you have pointed out of Steven's work is bogus. Stop being such a jerk, please. Must take a lot of guts to post anonymous insults. It sounds to me like you are just jealous and jaded. Admins: Please close this thread before it gets even worse.

for gawd sake, Mads,

these are MY opinions, u don't like them, then don't reply.

I'm neither jealous nor jaded, I like to be told my work is great, fantastic, etc, etc just as much as the next artist. PPL wanted to know why I was so worked up, etc and why I had a problem with Steven's work, rather than continue arguing about it, I found it easier to post the way I did, and not being arsed to add huge critiques to each picture - I pretty much summed up what I felt about each piece in a small paragraph.

ADMINS - do what you wish with this thread - my opinions are known and judging from the privates email to my yahoo account, there is quite a number of you out there who heartily agree with me.

[MadS]

I just think it's the way you are going about it. Do you have to be so nasty? I'm not a wuss or anything, but come on. Be gentle. ;) Leave out the "gay" comments and other childish remarks. Show some respect, is all I am saying. Damn

[James Lang]

Originally posted by MadS
I just think it's the way you are going about it. Do you have to be so nasty? I'm not a wuss or anything, but come on. Be gentle. ;) Leave out the "gay" comments and other childish remarks. Show some respect, is all I am saying. Damn

Ok, I apologise about the 'gay' comment, it just came across that way to me - but I understand that there is some 'gay' 3d artists out there, so no offense intended. Ulitimately, I know I have come across as a complete arsehole and a jerk, but I don't care about that, I was originally so worked up about it all, I had to do that to get my point across, my opinions will still be as strong in the future, but obviously with a bit less venom next time.

I think my main point is, I will be treating each and all (and I hope to see other artists doing the same) of you here with the same level of critique / respect - regardless of who you are, or how good you are, it's the only way each artist will be able to progress and it may even make newbies/students think a little more about their working before posting it for critique - I mean it is common sense after all that if someone is going to model a head, it's best to do a little research first before sitting down at the computer and just blindly sculpting away.

I have seen - nothing - that couldn't have been created better whether alien in origin or man-made / monster/ etc that would have been so much better conceptually wise if the original 3d modeller had taken the time to do a little research first, anatomy, musculature, etc. Like I said, I think Steven is good, but like everyone else, like me, he's still learning.

It's not about respect - it's about honesty.

[Jhonus]

edit
sorry, posted this b4 i saw yoru reply
/edit

this reminds me of the Forsch thread in the 2D section.

read the following...


wtf, she looks like she has been hit in the middle of her forehead with a blunt instrument
I've seen even newbies to the 3d realm do better than this
1 and half out of 10 for imagination
I would've expected a lot better from him by now, but that's what happens when you concentrate on one thing and one thing only, you stagnate.
I'll avoid the obvious gay look and punchable face the guy has
hmm, what can I say, did she fall over - again -


I don't think anyone is contesting your right to express your opinion, so you can stop going down that line. just express your point in a way that isn't so insulting. not much to ask???

Stahlberg has given us a reason to respect his work and opinion... so far you haven't provided us with much reason to take your contentious manner seriously.

i agree that there are a few artists out there that get elevated to the point where everything they do is deemed good without much crit. but its not your job to bring them down.

[lildragon]

James I think the prob is you make yourself seem like a king of kings, you have "mastered" the art that is 3D, you're coming across just like this, seems very arrogant. You said you work has be seen by thousands, so have ours, ever seen some of the thread views here? now tens of thousands or millions now you talking, and that means you're definitely "prime time"

We do respect opinions/crits so fourth, but not like you bring them to the table.

one of Steve's SUBD models, wtf, she looks like she has been hit in the middle of her forehead with a blunt instrument,

man that ain't cool at all...

cheers ;)

[psumo]

hmm...

I like the first model better than the others.
I think that sub divs give the model a certain
harder flatter look than with nurbs

Lang is going to extremes to try to prove his point
but in the transition the girl does loose some apeal
to her.

I used to be a pro nurbs guy also until I was
introduced to sub divs at Pixar. Then I hardly
go back. I can also notice the difference in the
look of my models from nurbs to subdivs and they
have some of the same problems that lang pointed
out in Stalbergs.

btw. check out the site with martinmurphy's
work. His art in incredible

also check out Miles Estes site

http://divinion.com/

This is the best head model that I seen
http://www.3dtotal.com/home2/gallery/images/big/326.jpg

[Stahlberg]

Ulitimately, I know I have come across as a complete arsehole and a jerk, but I don't care about that, I was originally so worked up about it all, I had to do that to get my point across, my opinions will still be as strong in the future, but obviously with a bit less venom next time.


Ok, that's good then.

[mjm]

Just what I noticed. From the CG Talk User Agreement:

"...By clicking the Agree button, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws..."

I would classify simple bashing and unconstructive (albeit honest) criticism as hateful. Maybe it is not your intention, but it sure is coming across in such a way. We all know you have a voice. But when you clicked "Agree," you allowed that voice to be moderated to a point. So please respect the community and its members.

[Chris]

I've always thought personally you should finish any criticism on a positive note. Start by saying what about an image you dont like & finish with a suggestion for making it better.

eg: instead of:
"wtf, she looks like she has been hit in the middle of her forehead with a blunt instrument"

You could say:
"The creases between her eyebrows look a little strange to me, perhaps they shouldnt go up quite so high & maybe they should curve into the eye socket a little at the bottom."

negative criticism is generally not much use whatsoever, making the artist feel worse & generally provoking a defensive reaction (like this thread) which dosnt really achieve what the point of the criticism should have been in the first place, ie: improving the work. It will more often than not make the artist dig in his or her heels & stubbornly not change what has been criticised...

:)

[James Lang]

Well, well, well

I guess we will all just agree to disagree..

each time I tried to explain what my point was, I would get 3 or 4 replies slating me and taking what I had said out of context, so each time I had to up the ante to get the point across properly each time, and each time was more vehemently opposed to the original : -

eg: instead of:
"wtf, she looks like she has been hit in the middle of her forehead with a blunt instrument"

You could say:
"The creases between her eyebrows look a little strange to me, perhaps they shouldnt go up quite so high & maybe they should curve into the eye socket a little at the bottom."

agreed, but at that point - nobody was seeing what I was actually trying to say, I really needed to spell it out, and I still don't think some people here understand what my point is.

Psumo seems to have gotten what I mean - it could have been so much simpler rather than the derogatory slagging match this had become.

negative criticism is generally not much use whatsoever, making the artist feel worse & generally provoking a defensive reaction (like this thread) which dosnt really achieve what the point of the criticism should have been in the first place, ie: improving the work. It will more often than not make the artist dig in his or her heels & stubbornly not change what has been criticised...

yes, but my point is, a 'good' artist will accept what is wrong and make the changes - I've already mentioned this in a private email to someone - I have a colleague who has the time for his own work, and he's producing some amazing stuff, he's shy of lists and doesn't want to post them, I'm still trying to convince him otherwise, anyway, he never asks anyone for critique, he asks only 1 person, his girlfriend, she doesn't understand 3D at all in the slightest, her opinions are brutal and honest, he once said he stayed up all weekend refining a head - she simply said when asked it didn't look right - completely deflated - but burning to get the good comment he carried on working - a whole 2 months went by before she accepted the model as realistic - the same again for his texture work - too plasticky - not realistic - nose looks funny - uneducated responses and brutal honesty - but each time he would take it on board and work through it, and every time his stuff improved tenfold, and on and on until the point where an uneducated 3d layman/woman could accept the result and not say that looks computery.

[Chris]

"yes, but my point is, a 'good' artist will accept what is wrong and make the changes - I've already mentioned this in a private email to someone - I have a colleague who has the time for his own work, and he's producing some amazing stuff, he's shy of lists and doesn't want to post them, I'm still trying to convince him otherwise, anyway, he never asks anyone for critique, he asks only 1 person, his girlfriend, she doesn't understand 3D at all in the slightest, her opinions are brutal and honest"

True - my girlfriend is brutally honest like that as well ;) I dread showing her my work... :) but that is based on the idea that a good artist is one that responds to criticism in that way. I dont believe that has much to do whether an artist is good or not, but perhaps more to do with their own idea of how good they are. (their 'self worth')

However,whether that is true or not, on the internet its hard to determine what a persons personality is & how they will respond to negatively phrased comments. You cannot assume that people will take what you have written in the spirit that it was perhaps meant - it's safer to spell everything out...


& finish with a

:)

[l_farley13_l]

James Lang- I'll just post a quikie here :D When I read that full crit you gave I almost laughed about the blunt object thing (and most of the other stuff too) - lol sooo sarcastic aren't we :) but it's hard to show online I know . . . . I think it'd be a great thing if you headed over the the WIP challenge thing and gave a few crits (and remember to specify how to change somthing or if you can't just say so.)
ex. She looks right out of creepy crawlers like a living dead :) or somthing, maybe add some luminence and color to her cheeks and tone the bump map down!) yeh yeh yeh yada . . . .

And remember The smily is ESSENTIAL ! :D

I think perspective is probably the hardest thing to get around here, new people with a "blunt" perspectives willing to spend the time to give worthwhile crits!


SMILIES ARE ESSENTIAL! ;)

see you,

Farley13

[dmonk]

Being a newbie I don't mind a hard crit at all, as a matter of fact I prefer those.

James is entitled to his opinion and I think maybe people shouldn't gang up on him so much, but ( James) you do come off as a really cocky, arrogant S.O.B who thinks his shit doesn't stink and I mean that in the most constructive way possible.

To give an opinion doesn't mean attack.

That being said I hope James lang stays on the forum an dgives his opinion for as long as he see fit.

I think that most people who post on the forum are amatuers ( I sure as hell know I am ) so if someone post something that isn't so strong If people feel like that artist deserve some encouragement and should get a little pat on the back for what they did right then what harm does that do? I know I've posted some weak stuff beforeand being a newbie the only reason that I post is because I would like to get as many opinions as to what I can do to improve whether good or bad.

anyway that's my 2 cents I'll crawl into my little hole now.

[meshsmooth]

well that was an intresting read,

id first like to say that i am also very bored of head and bodys, rendered in gi and all that, its just not that creative. But who cares if its creative or not? if you want to be a good modeler/texturer then modeling the figer is one of the best way to learn. And if youve just started modeling a head and its a wip then post it, its what cgchannel is for, and hopefully you will get some good coments from people unlike James Lang.

my second coment regards James Lang.
James, there is good criticism and bad criticism, i cannot understand why you would say the things you do. You talk about egos, but it seems to me that if anyone has a big ego its you. When asked to justify your bold statements by posting some of your own work you say that you are unable to do so but say that 1000's of people have seen it, well i think that sound lame. If you where stuped enough to sign a contract that doesent alow you to use your work for self promotion then your a fool, and you could just tell us what one of the projects that youve worked on and what you did in that shot etc.. but i dont think you will.

when i give crit somones work i crit it on its own merits, if i see somthing i dont like ill say, but ill always back it up with what i do like. And if it realy upsets you seeing people reply to people like Stahlberg (who i would like to say is not one of my favorites ) then dont read it, nobody has a gun to your head.

[meloncully]

hey james! why don't you crit this:

[takkun]

Why is everyone getting so upset about James Lang? Can't you see he's one of those guys that are trying to see how many people he can piss off? James, do you work for Something Awful or something? If so, say hi to Jeff K.

If James was actually trying to be a good critic then he would definitely stay away from the 'gay' remarks and such. He doesn't want to help others improve, he just wants to mock them. What he is doing is NOT hard critiques.

James, if you're upset with the current state of 3d artists then why don't you start creating great artwork. Why should you give a f*ck what others are doing?

And lowdown was absolutely right about his definition of what a constructive critique should be:


Compliment what they have done correctly, point out what you think is incorrect, and offer a suggestion on improving the incorrect area. It's an incredibly simple formula.

[psumo]

First the composition:

The horizontal composition is nice where the sphere and cylinder
in respect to the viewer but I think that the objects are too low maybe center them more vertical wise or come closer to the objects. There seems to be a lot of negative space. Also you may need to offset the camera so the angles of the walls don't look so symetric.

modeling:

You should round the edges of the cylinder a bit so they
do not look so perfect. Just add a little bevel on the top and bottom part of it. Other than that everything looks great

Shading:

I would think about adding some sort of specular color to the objects. It would highlight the lighter areas a bit more. I low frequency bump map would also be good to break up the regularity


Now on to lighting:

You need the objects to cast shadows. It's missing contact shadows especially. Also if you put a rim or a fill in the right side
of the objects it will make them stand out more and not look so black. Maybe add a bounce light coming from underneath the sphere with the same color as the floor. In the edges of the wall I think you should make them a little bit darker where the light would get trap. Also ramping off the light around the corners of the image may focus the attention more towards the objects.

You're on a great start I can wait to see more of this image.
I hope you continue to make this image nice.
end crit.

here's my version of something similar to your image
I re-did this in maya for a class I helped with last quarter
the original was done as an instructional lighting assignment
in the Pixar University class.


http://www.cs.washington.edu/education/courses/cse458/CurrentQtr/projects/project3/orange.jpg

[takkun]

I'm sorry James, I failed to read your last post before posting my last post. It's seems that you're not completely one-sided after all. But still, the point I want to make is, Why care about other artists at all? If you don't like the direction that 3d artists are heading then the only way to change that is by creating, not by critiqing.

There are leaders and then there are followers... and somewhere on the bottom of the list, there are critics.

[JuRrAsStOiL]

Well, James, get alive
No one cares something about your opinion,
cause you don't crit, you just insult. Steven
is a talented artist and just got some great
and kinda perfect artwork. Somewhere you
wrote that you saw newbies, making some
better stuff. Well newbies ask how to assign
textures or how to save their rendering, they
don't model photorealistic humans.
No artwork is perfect you f***ing imbecile and
of course you won't make it perfect with your
senseless crits.
But I stop here, cause you are narrow-minded
and won't even mind what everyone tells you.
So, I ignore your next posts (hope I don't have
to ignore more posts of you.)

[urgaffel]

James Lang:

It's not about respect - it's about honesty

So there can be no honesty without respect?

How about delivering your honest opinion with a smidgen of respect?

I totally agree about the ridiculous amount of fanboy comments and the need for "hard" crits. But like I said, with a smidgen of respect, instead of unleashing a torrent of venom...

[Wiro]

Ooooh, it's getting a bit outta hand now. I'm not sure if I or James Lang started it but I can see his point (*ducks for cover*)

I totally love Steven's latest pic (the b/w pic of the pinup girl) and also the foot pic in another thread is really impressive.
They show off great talent. The pinup girl has great composition, pose and lighting and regardless if it had been a photo, drawing or CG pic it stands it's own ground as an artistic piece.

But alot of the stuff around lately from people trying to create a perfect synthespian (oops, buzzword alert) just looks like show-offs of their skill to copy life. More a tour-de-force than an attempt to create a piece of art.

Steven is right in many points; synthespians have a place in the FX industry but as standalone pieces I just don't find them as interesting as more stylized stuff.

I think MadS's first post covers what I mean too.

Wiro

[Flynn]

I think the reason Lang does not offer any "help" in his posts, is becouse I dont believe he "knows" how to improve what he finds so wrong in the work....

Sounds to me like Lang is just bitter....probably some computer geek who started 3d back in the day with no artistic bg...and now see's kids right out of school doing stuff he wishes he could do...hence all the pointless bashing...

I say put yout money where your mouth is...show us your stuff. There is no way in hell you can be a 3d professional (having stuff viewed by 1000's of people and all) and not have anything at all to show here....or are you scared what you might hear?


IMO you need to relax....stop being so bitter. you will be happier for it....

you have kids right? how would you like it, if there teacher in school said "your a dumbass!!! how did you not know that answer??! you will never be anything!!" do you think that will help them? for their sake I hope you see it will not.

[Titan]

An artist is entitled to his own interpretation of reality...his own style, if his style is to be anatomically correct to the smallest detail, then so be it..if his style is to percieve certain features in his own idealized vision...then so be it...
But Steven is by no means a sloppy artist...he obviously puts great thought into every vert or poly and has proven mastery of techniques that most never will.(never mind whether a virtual actor is useful in film or media, the fact is that he can do it, and he can do it rather well.)

I feel that Lang is being overcritical, why continue to get so defensive....does Stahlberg's work bother you that damn much that you need to respond everytime someone posts a yay! or Nay!?

you said your peice..I think we get your point.....some agree some dont.

[parallax]

James lang>>
You're entitled to your opinion, but please be more friendly(respectfull) in the future. I'm sure you didnt mean to insult anyone, so we'll have to work on that in the future.. :rolleyes:
As for the 'viewed by 1000's of people' remark:

Well, Britney Spears also sells millions of records :p
rest my case..

[clifford]

For James :D :

I really like you like this .. so honest .. Uuuh ..

Of course the work of Steve is wonderful and I will never compare mine with his. But when you're creating a body/head/hand/etc, no need to be a professional modeler to post crits since everybody can say the model is realistic or not ...

Something really strange here is the positive comments on ugly works (i'm not talking about steve work ok !!)
I mean .. i'm not going to post one of my WIPs because I know they are ugly and I don't want to see a "great job" about them since this is not acceptable ...
And, if by accident(!?) one of my models are posted here, I'd prefer real crits like James ones than "politically correct" critiques ...

Ok, the words were hard but the crits were constructive to me ...
We don't need to fall in the trap : "name equals quality" ...
What I feel today is that crits are not allowed with some great names of 3D industry if you are not able to achieve the same work .. And I totally disagree with that ... I'm not a 8 hours per day 3D worker and I have 2 or 3 hours at night to try to do some good work but does that mean that I cannot give my opinion on professional work ?

Anyway, I hope that James will critic my job the same way he does with Steve's job in case I post something here (there will be a lot more crits to had though :D)
And of course, Steve, your work is incredible to me but I must agree that I noticed some problems James pointed out.

[j3st3r]

Hey man...

I`ve read this thread over and over...It is sad...

I`m very impressed by Steven and Rene artworks. I think they ARE artists. Although I do believe that photorealism is somehow unnecessary goal. I liked Final Fantasy: The Spirit Within, but I prefer the game`s original style. Photorealism raises a lot of additional problems, and I think that it doesn`t worth too much effort, ALTHOUGH such a pioneers, like Steven and Rene will find out solutions.

I agree, that the head made in NURBS was better, althouogh the body in SubD is much better than the old, NURBS one.

I agree with James, that the meaning of @constructive critique@ has been changed. I do think, that such comments like "Wow! Great start!" doesn`t serve the purpose of these forums. It`s typical psychological approach. Let make him happy, and then say the part of the truth. I`ve seen the effect of this approach. Those guys will never see their own mistakes.
Anyway too harsh comments doesn`t serve the purpose as well.

So...ppl, peace...

[Flynn]

hey j3st3r


first off let me just say that though I disagree with what you are saying. At least you knew how to express your opinion with tact unlike Lang.

Points I disagree on:

PhotoRealism being an unessecory goal: Well many , many artist would disagree (and agree) mastering realism helps you become a better artist no matter what style your into...that is why so many artists strive for it in many mediems such as, 3d art, sculpture, canvas, etc....its an age old practice. Picaso started as a realist before he moved on to abstract....his reasoning? "you have to know the rules before breaking them" and I think that applies here as well...many people who bash realism simply cant do it. Not saying thats the case here....

Langs "hard critique",
I hear what you are saying about the critiques in here being a little "kiss ass" but I dont think they are thrown around that often...The bottom line most people on here are truly talented people and are deserving of praise....and yes a comment like "omg that is truly amazing" is just as helpfull to the artist as one that points out the flaws, simply becouse he knows he is going in the right direction....But from Langs crits IMO you gain nothing....there is no foundation for a lot of what he his saying. and he has said himslef that he will never give a positive crit....so how the hell will the artist know (based on langs opinion anyway) if he/she is moving in the right direction?...

Look I have heard thousands of crits in my day from school to work and even friends...and I have narrowed them down to 3 types.
1. The to nice crit (for example goto www.deviantart.com)
2. The honest and helpfull crit (this is imo what a crit should be....this a well balanced crit that is designed to help the artist become better at his/her craft...it includes positve as well as negative feedback....and the negative feedback would be explained in such a fashion that would be benifficial to the artist...not just to bring them down and make them feel like shit..
I have had people rip my shit apart but most of the time they will point out what I did that is right, and will tell me how to fix the stuff that is off.....lang does not do this. He is not doing a hard Crit...he is just bashing there is a difference.
3. someone who just bashes becouse they are jealous or jsut bitter...they will not bring up anything positve in the work at all. Leaving the artist feeling like shit...which is what their goal was in the first place.


And one more thing....HE has yet to show his 3d on here and thus far has come up with some lame reasoning on why he cant.....and unless this guy is Doug Chaing from ILM he has no buisness talking down to all the truly gifted 3d artists that he bashes.

anyway enough board politics I'm going to get back to work!

cheers!

[Koma]

really funny thread, bla bla bla bla bla ,wow !!! hey James you have the good way to make people reply .But if you want critic works of Steven that is not post here write him a e-mail ,I really dont care about what you thinking about that . And if you want came blast my works i would be happy !!!


but dont be so mad:annoyed: enjoy life dude:cool:


and if you make bad comment,really bad, people just have to ignore you its ,so easy !

sorry for english iam just a little french who having alot of fun who see people dont .

ah aha hahaha ahhaa ahahaha ahaha hahaha !!!

And the oscar for the best comedian : James Lang

[blc318]

Great advice psumo. Have you written any tutorials on lighitng. Or know of any good resources or links?

[skarab]

I feel that the key difference that is being ignored onthis thread is the difference between "criticism" and "critique". All "criticism" requires is to say something is garbage. I feel (as a relative newcomer here) that the reason people post their work here is for "critique", i.e., costructive suggestions as to how to improve one's work.

[bastich]

for crying out loud people, get a life!! i mean, talk about blowng things out of proportion. i completely agree with james on this one. i might not be on his side on his actual opinion, but i like that he didn't wuss out and soften his criticism with compliments. in my opinion criticism should be like a tequila shot, it might not be the tastiest way to get drunk, but it's definitely the quickest.

Flynn
<you have kids right? how would you like it, if there teacher in school said "your a dumbass!!! how did you not know that answer??! you will never be anything!!" do you think that will help them? for their sake I hope you see it will not.>

WTF flynn??? the point here is that we aren't kids, if you wanna be babied go back to high school.

james, i love your crit, i think that comments like "she looks like she's been hit in the head with a blunt object" make infinitely more sense than comments like, "wow i really like you're head, but i think that the wrinkles should be a little more curved, and maybe a little lower on her forehead". i mean, cmon people, it's pretty obvious what he meant.

steven, as an artist, i respect what you do, but creating this thread was just plain weak. i would think that an artist who gets as much praise as you do would be sick of people blowing smoke up your ass, and find a little bit of harsh reality refreshing. if you think that you're above criticism, then don't post.

[Joel Hooks]

I need to register some accounts to reenforce my trolls in the future.

*takes notes*

[Flynn]

"WTF flynn??? the point here is that we aren't kids, if you wanna be babied go back to high school. "


I love you.

[rendermonkey23]

I didn't read the last nine comments so If I sound stupid cause something someone said... I apologize.

Anywho, WHY is this thread still getting replys. Everybody is just repeating the same things over and over. Just let it die :)

just say "it is a really nice arm but I might make it a bit thinner and maybe touch up the hand a bit, blah blah whatever" INSTEAD OF "it looks like a girthy ****". :D If I hear another "how to say a crit properly" comment I'm gonna go postal :D

By the way... britney spears is the hottest female on earth.... too young but damn, you gotta agree guys. :D :D :D

[Koma]

sorry rendermonkey Britney is cute but not the hottest on the world (for me,everybody see people differently)

to me i think its Laetitia Casta and Elle mcphearson !!!

[D. Phoenix]

Anywho, WHY is this thread still getting replys.

This is primarily because some people are registering new user names to reinforce their opinions in order to appear as if they have support where none exists.

-D. Phoenix

[MadS]

I agree. It's obvious that bastich = James Lang. Sad.

[rendermonkey23]

I dont know if bas is james but it might be someone else that didn't want to get a bad reputation so they switched to an "anonymous" screen name.

Just a thought.... nothing more :)

[Titan]

maybe its still getting replys because it actually sparked an interest among artists..........

And Brittanny IS incredibly HOT!!! but she needs to quit with the Karoke routine.

[bastich]

i am not james, i do no even know the guy, in fact i'd almost agree with you all that the sub-d model probably is better. but i do believe that on a board like this you put yourself up to be ripped apart. if you can't take it, don't bitch and whine about it, just don't post.

as for me using an annonymous user, i'm new to this board, i'll post some stuff soon enough.

[bastich]

btw flynn, i love you too. sorry i had to use you as an example, but you seemed to voice the attitude of the majority quite well.

[parallax]

Lol :)
i seem to have hit a weak spot with the britney spears remark ;)
...lets see.. where did i put that box of autographed britney pictures... :drool:

[Naz]

Parallax: "As for the 'viewed by 1000's of people' remark:
Well, Britney Spears also sells millions of records
rest my case.."

so S. Stahlberg is the B.S in CG you say? how very rude of you ;)

there "seems" a big controversy going on about if digital humans are that artistic or else... I think they are an essential part of the process in developping and advancing the cg state of the art and often gaze at them in sheer amazment to what is already possible. there always will be room for improvement, nature in its infinite detailism =) and we all know how humans look like. Sometimes we aren't able to tell that something is wrong, but we "sense" it.
To creat a character that is truely real, we think it does actually exist, that is the not at all easy art, challenge and achievement those realists (idealists?) pursue.

[James Lang]

Without being drawn into the 'replying' of scenario. and at the same time, not being arsed to carry on the arguments... I'll add this one to the list :-

This image is by Robert Kuczera and I found it on Highend3D gallery

http://208.179.92.68/files/user_images/3dcharacters_Holgi.jpg

done in Maya and Photoshop, now how much of it is just a plain ol' photograph and how much is 'texture' is a whole different subject matter, the only point I would like to raise on this image is - WHY? - assuming (in an ideal world) the whole of this image (i.e. the head) is full 3D and the texture (albeit photographic reference) is fully hand drawn, I have to ask why - this whole image may have just have well been a photograph, I can't believe anyone would waste their time to that extent for 1 photographic looking image when (in this case) a photograph would've done exactly the same effect. Reading between the lines, I can compare this image to Ulf Lundgren's piece, i.e. two projected (photoshop manipulated) textures - and I guess it wouldn't work well (like Ulf's) under other lighting conditions or other angles other than the ones that the photographic reference was taken from.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for realism - but in this case, I can hardly see the point of it.....
;)

[popnGEAR]

I agree with James Lang. :cool:

*edited my mod*
*no rude remarks please*

[xynaria]

In my experience to date which does include working at what might be classed as some major studios, one thing has been prevelant amongst the truly talented people that worked there. They were all humble and they were all extremely generous, gracious and helpful.
'Below' them (as it were) were a group of peolple who although possibly talented, where (by common consent) nowhere near as talented as they thought they were and who tended to shrug responsibility for their often boorish, usually rude actions and were greatly lacking in any charm or grace.
Strange how this came to mind when reading this thread as the latter type also had a habit of even shooting any valid points they had in the foot by what might be described as their insecurities getting the better of their behaviour. :)

[bike]

Okay, 3 things:


1) You do not need to be a 3d artist to be a critic (no disrespect to James Lang as I don't even know if he is a 3d artist or not). Roger Ebert isn't exactly a filmmaker.


2) If any of you have even been out in the real world, it's not shits and giggles. If you want a critique, you will get your work teared to shit. Ever been to a portfolio review? And if you have--then what seems to be the problem?

3) I am not James Lang.





And I agree--Stahlberg isn't Richard Gere and you're not gerbils.. http://www.dogsonacid.com/oldubb/icons/icon885.gif

[JuRrAsStOiL]

Well, I got something for you:
some months ago I watched the end of the Olimpic games
and the "Bundeskanzler" said, that he was proud, that
the sportsmen won so much medals. My mother stand
right beside me and said this sentence I still remember:
"How the h*ll can we be proud of things others did?!"

I think this takes apart here. James, post some work
here that YOU did. I don't want to say that
you are a st*pid ******sh*t****f***er, no way.
But to say it's shit and others can make it much better
isn't very constructive I think.

BTW This is more feedback Steven thought he would
get :D

[MadS]

Start rant====
The sad part of this whole thing is that people who are often well known become targets for immature little putzes. Sure, Steven's work isn't perfect. I never said it was. and I never said to kiss his ass, or anyone else's for that matter. No one here is saying not to give out crits, or to express thier opinions. I for one know that if it wasn't for very honest crits, I would not improve at all. But if someone starts ridiculing my work, you can bet I will be offended. No one likes to be ridiculed. And when you spend hours and hours on a piece of art, it becomes very personal when people try to diminish your efforts with nothing more than childish, and nasty comments like those of 'James Lang'.

Sure, we may all think nasty things. Most of us are arseholes deep down, I think. Not saying I am a goody goody. In fact, the real me can be quite mean. But where will that get you in this world? And do you really think that Steven will want to listen to you after you spit in his face? f**k no. I wouldn't. I will bet you that even 'JAMES' can't take his own medicine. Where is your work 'James'? You don't have to be an artist to be a critic, but when you go on the line and claim to be such a badass, then back it up or shutup.

Now, I respect Steven's experience and obvious talent. And I know now that he will not post to this board anymore because of pricks like 'James'. Why do you want to run off the people that can truly give you good feedback, and back it up with plenty of experience. I would love to see someone like 'James Lang' give crits like that to someone's face. He will eventually get his ass beat to a pulp. And th reason why he won't give out his true identity is because he knows he'll be hated. Loser.
====End rant.

Ok, I just needed to get that off my chest. If I have offended anyone, then you must be one of the 'James Langs' of this world.

p.s. 'James': You seem like an intelligent person. Can't we all just get along? :p

Peace out! :D

[Stahlberg]

Bastich wrote:
but i do believe that on a board like this you put yourself up to be ripped apart. if you can't take it, don't bitch and whine about it, just don't post.

I was invited to comment on someone else's work by the admin here.
Unfortunately I made the mistake of also critisizing mr Lang. Well, he can't take it as well as he can dish it out. I did NOT ask mr Lang for his opinion on my work, but he generously gave it anyway.
I certainly did not give him permission to post my art here, together with derisive crits that even he himself later admitted were too venomous.

[bastich]

i may have missed something somewhere, but if i'm not mistaken this whole thread was started as a forum for you to complain about a criticism that you recieved, mr stahlberg. that's all i know. i know that this entire debate, was spawned by mr lang voicing his opinion about your new method of working. i do not know if on that thread you had posted anything, nor do i care. the fact remains that he voiced his OPINION, and with this being a forum for free speech, he is welcome to do that whether you ask him to or not.

just look at it this way. there are two types of people in this world. there are assholes, like me, and james, and bike, who are very difficult to offend (i am at least). and there are people who are easily offended. the sooner the easily offended realise that it's not an assholish opinion of you as an individual, it's an assholish opinion of your work, the better off we'll all be.

one of the first things i learned in my quest to be an artist was that your work is not you. i know from personal experience that if someone says, "oh, maybe change this, or that" and tacks a compliment on it you tend to get hung up on the compliment and forget the criticism. when i was studying classical animation i did a kick cycle, and everybody liked it. everybody kept telling me how great it was, and how good an animator i was. i got a huge ego really quickly because of it. then i had an instructor tell me that it was complete and utter shit, that i should go sit down and do it over, i hated him for it. but i went and sat down and tried to fix it. 8 times in 2 weeks i redid that f***ing cycle, and every time he told me it was shit. finally i scrapped it and started over. first try and he loved it. so did i, ironically. now had he tiptoed he most likely would not have gotten through to me (thanks mike).

i guess my point here is that yes, maybe his crit was harsh, and yes, maybe none of you asked for it, but so long as there are assholes like us in the industry, you can bet there are worse ones in the audience. and if you're all going to get upset when one of us says something, then you're going to be upset alot.

[mrben]

and here was me thinking we all make stupid pictures for a living.

obviously at some point we all became scientists working a cure for cancer or something else that really mattered

get a grip of yourselves people you're computer animators and to the average person on the street we matter about as much as the machine that punches holes in your bus ticket

ps : .. i'm right and you're all wrong

[echo]

wow, that's interesting...
Sad...
I would love to see Lang's work...
Anyways, I guess the only thing I could add is simply that there is a way of saying things...the right way is being constructive, not insulting.
Cheers

[D. Phoenix]

i got a huge ego really quickly because of it. then i had an instructor tell me that it was complete and utter shit, that i should go sit down and do it over, i hated him for it. but i went and sat down and tried to fix it. 8 times in 2 weeks i redid that f***ing cycle, and every time he told me it was shit. finally i scrapped it and started over. first try and he loved it. so did i, ironically. now had he tiptoed he most likely would not have gotten through to me (thanks mike).

Now you see, there is the counter-point:

It is one thing to have your work critiqued and called "bad" by an expert who knows what they are doing (in your case). It results in a better product ultimately.

It is quite another to have an amateur & attention seeker who could never do better try the same and attempt to justify himself in the same manner (as with the case with Mr. Stahlberg).

It is not so much a matter of freedom of expression: It is the difference of qualified critiques. Just as all people will not take a child's advice to complex matters seriously, Steven Stahlberg is questioning the validity of James Lang's unqualified input.

I doubt any of you would take lightly to having your expertise questioned by an amateur.


-D. Phoenix

[echo]

ok, I just spent a couple minutes to actually go trough the whole tread...
James, I agree with you on many points, it just got out of hand after the second page...
People need to accept critics and you are right that it's funny to see wow best work ever...but this is also freedom of speach...it does not help someone improve.
Stalberg is very good but is not the best out there so we can comment other than saying : WOOOOOW! AMAZING!
Anyways, I'm not too sure where I'm going with this! ;)
As far as posting someone's work and saying : what's the point, I don't agree...people are free to use 3D for extreme realism if that's what they like...even if there is not point, so what.
I'll stop wasting my time on this thread but it was very interesting to see how it went out of line.
I guess people just want to see a sample of your work to give you a little credibility cause when it went out of line, you made it sound like you are very experienced and talented...show us something.
Anyways,

time to sleep!

[echo]

oh yeah...and are subds better than nurbs?
it's like saying, do you want a BMW M3 or Audi S4
Subds are better on some points, nurbs on others...
This discussion does not make any sense to me.

[bastich]

i think you nailed it right on d.pheonix, although i do prefer to have my WORK critiqued by amatures (they are closer to my end audience) i agree that having my METHODS criticized by someone who can't/won't back them up. but all the same, it is a risk you take when you post on a forum like this.

[rendermonkey23]

Looking for hard anal crits :D

[Fritz3D]

:o :D

[James Lang]

Rendermonkey!! lol! :)

Is that a self-portrait, it's very good and very convincing...
:rolleyes:

[rendermonkey23]

hehe, ya it's a self portrait (my real name is richard). Actually cerreto put me up to it :D plus I just want everybody to get along and figured a laugh wouldn't hurt.

Mua ha ha huaaa

by the way.... I couldn't spend more than 5 minutes on this cause I got all weirded out :D

[cwispy]

Hey everyone, I'm new to this forum. I just ran through this thread... and its quite a dissappointing read. But yeah DP I just wanted to say that an amatuer or even a complete outsider is a much better critic then an expert. This is because an amateur has no idea of the work involved and will point out anything wrong, no matter how much work it means to the artist to fix it. An amateur is also as much an expert on observing the motion and form of life as any of the highly trained individuals in our industry, for they just as you have spent they're life in it, and even if they can't point out exactly what it is they always tell when something is wrong. The only difference the amateur does not have the ability to replicate it as closely or beautifully as the expert.

Chris

[JacquesD]

Originally posted by cwispy
Hey everyone, I'm new to this forum. I just ran through this thread... and its quite a dissappointing read. But yeah DP I just wanted to say that an amatuer or even a complete outsider is a much better critic then an expert. This is because an amateur has no idea of the work involved and will point out anything wrong, no matter how much work it means to the artist to fix it. An amateur is also as much an expert on observing the motion and form of life as any of the highly trained individuals in our industry, for they just as you have spent they're life in it, and even if they can't point out exactly what it is they always tell when something is wrong. The only difference the amateur does not have the ability to replicate it as closely or beautifully as the expert.

An amateur is also as much an expert on observing the motion and form of life as any of the highly trained individuals in our industry

Wrong, wrong and wrong, if all amateurs would be very good at observation, they wouldn't be amateurs anymore.
I know guys who know their 3D soft by heart, all the functions, techniques,plugins,bla bla bla... but when it's time to create a good artwork or animation, they do nothing but shit.
Anyone can learn a 3D package but you don't become a artist, you were born with the gift or not, it just a matter of time to discover if you're one or not.

even if they can't point out exactly what it is they always tell when something is wrong

A good observer with not only tell you what's wrong with you artwork or animation but he'll tell you how to improve it. It's worthless otherwise.

You know at Pixar they hire animators because they're really good at it and they don't care about the experience you have or how good is your knowledge about whatever 3D softwares, they just need people who's got the gift, the rest is optional and to be that good, it requires a very good sense of observation.

[Wiro]

I disaggree with that Ripper. Laymen can be good observers as well, it's just different.

I like to ask friends of mine that have absolutely no idea about CG what they think of my stuff. They look at it from a fresh perspective. "pros" tend to get stuck all too often in details and forget the overall picture.
I know colleagues of mine and also myself sometimes critisize small flaws in movie FX, like bad AA, some animation that looks a bit off, etc. but if I do that with friends that are not into CG I usually get the evil eye and they tell me to shut up and enjoy the film :)

They don't care about silly details, they look at the overall impression. If it's good, it's good.

Wiro

[lildragon]

ok everyone I think this thread has went on long enough, and still hasn't accomplish anything, so I'm closing it, it's actually very unproductive, rendermonkey :p :)

cheers