layer problem

[Mu]

okay, while I am fishing in the dark as to what effects you mean and which layers you are using (not to mention the version number of the Painter copy you are using, IX, X, 6, 7? :D ) I am guessing:

did you try and check "pick up underlying colour" in the layers palette?

:D

[Jinbrown]

Hi ChrisParsons,

Mu's right about needing specifics in order to answer your questions.

Maybe this tutorial on my PixelAlley site will help you to understand what kinds of information are needed (though there may be more you'll need to give us, depending on the situation):

How to Ask Corel Painter Questions in Forums Around the Painter Community (http://www.pixelalley.com/tips_and_tuts/how_to_ask_questions.html)


Cheers!


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[ChrisParsons]

Sorry, I wasn't very specific was I?

Ok, I'm using Painter X, the layers I'm using are just default layers.

Now I'll try and explain what's happening:
This example in the attachment is just a black square from which I took a rectangular selection and copied as a layer (default) if I then use diffuse blur, which is a favourite of mine, I get a strange sort of bleed as you can see in the example. It only occurs around the edges of the layer or selection. I hope that's enough detail for you:)

[Jinbrown]

This brush variant uses Method: Plugin and Subcategory: Diffuse Motion Brush.

It's meant to work on existing color, to distort that color, so when you paint onto transparent areas of the Layer, then back onto your black square, it pulls the existing paint in from the edge and breaks it up so now you have a whispy edge. When it's displayed above black, it appears that whispy edge is grey.

Take a look at this demo of a rectangle that's half black and half red. Where I used the Diffuse Blur variant in the middle, on the black and red, the result isn't grey, but where I used it around the edges of the rectangle, it does appear grey because there I painted onto transparent areas of the Layer and back again onto the colored rectangle, breaking up the edges.

http://www.pixelalley.com/demos/diffuse_blur_on_transp_lyr.jpg


Here's how the same Layer looks when displayed above white:

http://www.pixelalley.com/demos/diffuse_blur_on_transp_lyr_over_white.jpg




..........

[ChrisParsons]

Ok, that makes sense. So the problem is the diffuse blur variant, not using the wrong type of layer as I thought. It looks as though I'll have to find myself another favourite blender to use, could you recommend one that has a similar effect but without causing the problem?
Or will any blender have that effect?
Thanks
Chris.

[Jinbrown]

Any brush variant that blends will present problems when painting on transparent areas of a Layer. One solution may be to check the Pick Up Underlying Color box at the top of the Layers palette but that can have side effects too. If you ever want to add new colors below that Layer, the colors picked up earlier will no longer blend with the new color and you can have a pretty awful mess.

Blenders category variants will have different effects, depending on whether the Method is Plugin, Drip, or Cover. In any case, these variants need to work on existing color.

Blenders variants that use Method: Cover are able to blend colors because the Resaturation slider is set to 0% and the Bleed slider is set somewhere above 0%, usually somewhere between 50% and 100%. These Blenders variants will paint white on transparent areas of a Layer. Again, they're meant to be used to blend colors and where the Layer is transparent, there is no color.

From top to bottom in the demo below, I used four Blenders' variants:



Just Add Water (painted to the right - Method: Cover)
Grainy Water (painted to the left - Method: Cover)
Oily Blender 20 (twice on the right side of the rectangle, first painting out to the right, then in to the left - Method: Drip)
Flat Grainy Stump 10 (twice on the left side of the rectangle, first painting out to the left, then in to the right - Method: Drip)
Layer over black:

http://www.pixelalley.com/demos/4_blenders_variants_over_blk.jpg


Layer over white:

http://www.pixelalley.com/demos/4_blenders_variants_over_wht.jpg



If you stick to blending only where there's existing color on the Layer, you should be OK.



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[ChrisParsons]

Damn, you know your stuff!

Thanks for taking the time to help me with this, I appreciate it :thumbsup:

Actually, while I have the resident Painter expert online :D Is there a way to use displacement maps in Painter? At the moment I have to switch to Photoshop to do that?

Last question, I promise :D

Chris.

[Mu]

Hey Chris,

don't stop asking... whenever they spawn such a wealth onf information in the answers we all love to have someone around to ask the right questions...:scream:

[ChrisParsons]

You're quite right Mu :) Time to dig out that long list of Painter questions I started to write, I think I got up to about 449 questions, that should keep Jinbrown busy for a while :D
Then again, I haven't got an answer for my last question yet, so perhaps that's my lot, oh well :sad:

[Mu]

Hi there,

I am not quite sure what you mean. Are you talking about using greyscale layers as height information? I only know this from 3D - how does that fit in with a 2D illustration?

Maybe I can help, too, if I knew what this is about - or maybe not, we shall see...:D

[ChrisParsons]

Hi Mu,

Yeah, it's basically the same principle as in 3D, I use it to wrap intricate patterns onto cloth that I've painted. The patterns could pe painted on by hand, but when it's a complicated pattern it's just simpler to use a displacement map. It would be even simpler if I could do it in Painter and not have to switch to photoshop all the time.

I just can't seem to find a plug-in for Painter X that will do it :sad:

[Mu]

Hi Chris,

I thought I never knew about this, but then I remembered that I used to do this quite a lot in the GIMP - back in the olde days when I did not use Painter.

In the Gimp you can use a greyscale bumpmap to displace a layer like this:

http://muratkayi.de/cpg/albums/userpics/10001/bumptest.jpg

I also added a shadow layer in between the texture and the writing to increase the carved look.

Is that what you are trying to do? Because I think it won't work in Painter, unfortunately. But I'd be glad to learn of a workaround by someone else...?

In the meantime... what's the difference between displacement maps and bumpmaps?

[ZaiZen]

From a 3D point of view bump maps are greyscale images that creates the illusion of height and depth messing with the normals direction, making them light direction sensitive. Depending on a scale from black to white, and the shades of grey inbetween, the shade dictates if and how much it prortrudes or inverts the area.
Note that bumpmap does not change or alter the planar face or geometry at all. It just gives the illusion of depth through shading.
Bump maps suggests in or out.

Example of bump map use: Pores and wrinkles on skin, a wall texture, a golf ball, oranges, patterns that you want to give a little bit of depth to (almost like a tight dropshadow in 2D sort of). Sky's the limit really.

Displacement, without going too technical, are 2D maps painted or computer generated that actually does alter the geometry. You could for example model a candle as a cylindrical shape and get the wax melting and running down the side effect with displacement maps. Also useful for folds, and sculpting. Think of it as a difference map.
Displacement suggests movement / relocation.

Displacement in 2D I have no experience with at all, so maybe someone more enlightened can help out with that, but apparently you can wrap things like clothes, patterns and logos on folds, curves or drapery for example, sort of around the subject. Imagine a straight horizontal line projected on drapery. Displacement makes it follow the curvature of the drapery, so that it is no longer a straight line. If that makes any sense :}


I might be partly incorrect, vague or have unclear portions above. Feel free to fill in and I shall stand corrected.

[Jinbrown]

You could do something far more interesting with a little effort than I put into this experiment, but here's a very simple example of how I created fabric folds:

Since I wrote the following in order of steps I took, understanding the Layer hierarchy might be a bit confusing so here's how the Layers were organized, as they would look in the Layers palette once the experiment was completed:

Layer 2 Leaf Pattern Image Layer (Composite Method Gel)
Layer 1 Drape Highlights and Shadows Layer
Canvas (blank, white)


Basic Leaf Pattern

http://www.pixelalley.com/demos/5-4-02-leaf-pattern01.jpg

Leaf Pattern Painted with a Pattern Pens Variant

http://www.pixelalley.com/demos/5-5-02-leaf-pattern-painting-sat-add.jpg

Layer 2 - Filled with Painted Leaf Pattern Image, Used as Another Pattern

"Frost" was added to Pattern image Layer using a white-filled Layer, above the Pattern Image Layer, set to Composite Method Dissolve with Layer Opacity lowered. Then the two Layers were Grouped and Collapsed.

http://www.pixelalley.com/demos/jins_curtains_frost.jpg

Layer 1 - Drape Highlights and Shadows Image

Looking at the original RIFF file, it appears I created this Layer by filling it with an angled Gradient, though it could have been painted or created by making selections, feathering them, then filling them with grey.

http://www.pixelalley.com/curtains.jpghttp://www.pixelalley.com/demos/curtains_grad_brtns_cntrst.jpg

Layer 2 - Leaf Pattern Layer Set to Composite Method Gel

http://www.pixelalley.com/demos/jins_curtains3.jpg


If you have The Painter IX WOW! Book by Cher Threinen-Pendarvis, I think it includes a tutorial that addresses this technique, or a similar technique.


..............

[ChrisParsons]

ZaiZen: You're spot on, I don't know much about 3D, but as far as 2D goes that's exactly how I use displacement maps. With the limited time I've spent playing with 3D that sounds right about the bump maps just giving the illusion of depth without altering the actual geometry. As you can see with this section of an image I'm working on at the moment, displacement actually bends the pattern to follow the folds in the cloth (very useful).

Jinbrown: Although your method gives the impression of folds, it's just that, an impression.
Although the leaf pattern doesn't make it too clear, it doesn't seem as if the pattern's geometry has been changed, just the light/dark.

Mu: If there was a work-around that would be great,but, I've a feeling there won't be one without an actual displacement plug-in. Please let me know if you find anything though :)

[Jinbrown]

Hi Chris,

You're right, the method I demostrated doesn't actually wrap the image around the "folds".

I'd be interested in a plugin too, if anyone finds one.


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