Herge's Tintin will be "performance captured" by Weta,Spielberg and Jackson.

[ivanisavich]

I dunno.....my first reaction was "NOOOOO!!!" because the original cartoon was a great part of my childhood memories, and if they're doing a feature film I'd love to see it in that 2d animated style...

But at the same time, Weta's work hasn't let me down so far, so I'm open to new things I guess.

In the end all we can do is pray it won't look creepy or lose the flare that the cartoon had.

[P_T]

So the characters will be cartoony with realistic mocapped movement like Monster House only with the extra photorealism of Polar Express. It could work I guess... though I think those realistic hair and skin pores might clash with the character's eyes, they're just dots after all. :D

[Titus]

That's strange, I thought Hergé's death wish was not let anyone touch Tintin again.

Looking forward.

[GoldenCamel]

This is sad news to me, very sad. Motion capture cartoony looking photorealistic characters?
these guys are going to ruin Tin Tin. It would make a great 2D feature becasue those characters were designed for 2D, if you try to translate them into 3D and worst of all photo-real 3D, they'd lose all their appeal and look ugly as hell. not to mention the poor animation that you get from mo-cap, I thought Polar Express tought Zemekis and Spielberg a lesson, but it seems that I was wrong.

With all the respect I have for Peter Jackson, I think he should leave animatin alone and make live-action movies. everytime I hear an animated-feature director talking about the pores on the skin and how realistic and wonderful the cloth is going to be, I just know the film is going to be another depressing uncanny valley of effects.

[xen_ninja]

But isn't the move towards performance capture good for the cg industry?
If i'm not mistaken , wouldn't photoreal 3d movies be one long special effect sequence and thus generate increased demand for vfx specialists ? Before all of you lose hope , I suggest waiting to see how Imagework's supposedly photorealistic Beowulf looks like. I have ONE still from the movie( from AICN) and the hands pictured in the still sure do look realistic. But I'm still not convinced because well Zemeckis has been far too quiet. Usually animated movies release a trailer almost a year in advance and beowulf will be opeining on november. Anyway we'll see . Remember it is still art!!

[rsquires]

I'm very excited about this, although a tad apprehensive. I think that if they have been working on this for a year it's safe to say this is pretty much a go project. I think Speilberg and Jackson will both have a reverence to the material since Speilberg is a huge fan, as no doubt Jackson is. Titin is boys own stories and both Directors have shown that that is their first love. WETA will pull something amazing and groundbreaking out of the bag for this. Look at their track record with Gollum, the first CG character to occupy major screen time and one you empathised with. King Kong a truly awe inspiring CG creation whose digital bits were in my mind totally transparent to the viewer. I think it must be something in the water in New Zealand, but both Jackson and WETA do not stop short of second best when it comes to technical acheivement.

So I think this film will be a marvel artistically. Let's hope the stories live up to the heritage of Herge too.

regards
rich

[xen_ninja]

Wow a lot of you keep praising WETA. Yes , i acknowledge they are an amazing company but when you see bridge to terabithia...you start thinking they might be overrated. Not syaing the vfx was bad or anything it just looked sub-par. Other example of lacluster WETA effects is the metal guy from X-men 3 , Colossus I think. He looked fake and so does the silver surfer. Sure , I haven't seen real-life metallic men but I still think they looked fake. Then ther is KIng Kong .... KONG was just amazing but , the digital humans and dinosaurs not so much. In fact , I believe only ILM can pull photorealistic performance capture since they nailed the davy jones and crew. I mean surely I haven't seen a guy with a shark head or a blowfish for eyes but I still thought they looked very real.




I hope WETA and Imageworks found some majic rendering solution because I just can't understand why so many "photorealistic" performance capture movies are being made.

Hmmm....maybe maxwell render has something to do with it......just thinking out loud.

[BillSpradlin]

Wow a lot of you keep praising WETA. Yes , i acknowledge they are an amazing company but when you see bridge to terabithia...you start thinking they might be overrated. Not syaing the vfx was bad or anything it just looked sub-par. Other example of lacluster WETA effects is the metal guy from X-men 3 , Colossus I think. He looked fake and so does the silver surfer. Sure , I haven't seen real-life metallic men but I still think they looked fake. Then ther is KIng Kong .... KONG was just amazing but , the digital humans and dinosaurs not so much. In fact , I believe only ILM can pull photorealistic performance capture since they nailed the davy jones and crew. I mean surely I haven't seen a guy with a shark head or a blowfish for eyes but I still thought they looked very real..

The budget for Pirates' VFX dwarfed Terabithia, X-Men 3, and FF 2's budgets combined. Money is usually the root of why vfx are subpar. You get what you pay for.

Weta has proven they have the ability and technical wherewithall to pull off high calibur work, that's without question and I don't doubt, if Tintin gets the money they are aspiring for, then they'll do an excellent job.

[xen_ninja]

The budget for Pirates' VFX dwarfed Terabithia, X-Men 3, and FF 2's budgets combined. Money is usually the root of why vfx are subpar. You get what you pay for.

Weta has proven they have the ability and technical wherewithall to pull off high calibur work, that's without question and I don't doubt, if Tintin gets the money they are aspiring for, then they'll do an excellent job.

Yes I am aware of budget issues but considering that they had very few shots to do , I assumed that they could churn out some excellent work. Sincerely , i find some of the DD ,framestore etc. commericals, which have bigger budget and time issues than said movies, much more impressive than terabithia or x-men 3.

Because I don't work in the industry ( sigh. ..just a university student in elec /comp/soft engineering) , I probably won't understand the complexities. There is a part of me that believed that effects work ,especially in Weta is somewhat automated becauce of all the talk of impressive software technology that they create/employ. I thought all of their work would be consistent and expected stellar work whenever their name would accompany a movie. But now I know better.

Nonetheless , I'm far more interested in seeing the photorealistic characters and world that WETA will create than the Tintin movies themselves. I read them in french during my elementary and High shool years. Frankly , I found "SPirou et Fantasio " much more interesting. Anyone who lives in Montreal or is from France will know what I'm talkign about.

On a side note , is teh Bruce Lee project still on? Or will DD start concentrating on videogames?

[BillSpradlin]

Or will DD start concentrating on videogames?

We aren't turning into a game company, we'll still be doing the same thing we've always done =)

[taffy77]

well i am not sure if weta did colusus, and I didn't realise the silver surfer movie was out yet:)

[Mic_Ma]

I am quite looking forward to this and I am sure they will do a good job.

:I

[GoldenCamel]

Weta is a VFX studio, they can make good looking visual effects and blend it well with live action but a full animated feature is a different beast alltogether. I dont know about you but mo-cap animation that I've seen in Monster House and Polar Express was so creepy and ugly that I think Tin Tin is doomed from the start.

these guys should watch the "making of" of the incredibles to realize that it's not about the photo real cloth and skin pores that makes a good film.

[xen_ninja]

well i am not sure if weta did colusus, and I didn't realise the silver surfer movie was out yet:)

LOL I am from the future man. Well actually I was judging from the HD trailers.

[kmest]

these guys should watch the "making of" of the incredibles to realize that it's not about the photo real cloth and skin pores that makes a good film.

im sure weta guys ,and specialy Jackson and spielberg know it more than anyone else ,,,theyre the company behind Lord of the rings and King kong(well kong wasnt a good movie liek LOTR and sure they know why).....and i didnt have any problem with MONSTER HOUSE,,i belive the technology which ruind Polra express was well used in monster house,,i mean they look cartoonish but act real,,,nothing i saw before,,and i think that if they use it welll,,,maybe better than monster house,they can achive a much more better result.

personaly to me,making TIN TIN in this style is the best choice.....hope they come up with a good story and direction.....if the director is good,everything else WILL become good

[rollmops]

It's going to be visually more interresting than tones of adaptations done during the previous century! I'm curious to see the first pictures they will publish!

[P_T]

Weta is a VFX studio, they can make good looking visual effects and blend it well with live action but a full animated feature is a different beast alltogether.Not necessarily. Animal Logic and R&H pulled it off just fine with Happy Feet. I'm sure Weta will do just fine, though as I said, not sure if the realistic pores and hair will match the dot for eyes style.

[switchblade327]

Not necessarily. Animal Logic and R&H pulled it off just fine with Happy Feet. I'm sure Weta will do just fine, though as I said, not sure if the realistic pores and hair will match the dot for eyes style.

"Just fine" is a good way to describe it. Happy Feet was descent but there was no real charm to the motion. Lots of subtlty from the mocap but no good extreme poses (them being penguins lacking in the limb department didn't help much either) I haven't seen Monster House but I'm sure most of us agree on the creepiness of the Polar Express. I think there is a place for performance capture but certainly not for cartoony source like Tintin.

[P_T]

"Just fine" is a good way to describe it. Happy Feet was descent but there was no real charm to the motion. Lots of subtlty from the mocap but no good extreme poses...That's just a matter of opinion though. When I went to see it in the cinema, I heard a lot of comments on how cute and funny those penguins were from the audience.

They may not know principles of animation but the fact that those penguins managed to evoke some emotion from the audience shows that both Animal Logic and R&H did 'just fine' with Happy Feet.

Back to topic, if Weta could make Gollum perform so well, I'm pretty sure they won't have any problems with Tintin.

[switchblade327]

That's just a matter of opinion though. When I went to see it in the cinema, I heard a lot of comments on how cute and funny those penguins were from the audience.


Of course that's just my opinion and I won't deny as an animator being biased either. Hell, it won an oscar so people obviously disagree with me (and producers will be jumping on the mocap bandwagon in droves in the same way they though 3d=charm in the late 90s/earlys 00s). But I do think, everything else being equal, it would've been more charming to the public if it was hand animated instead of mocapped.

Edit: This isn't meant to knock anyone's work on the film either. I just don't agree that particular creative decision.

[GoldenCamel]

I didn't like Happy Feet, even thou it wasn't all mocaped and there WERE some hand-keyed animation in there. But there is one big difference, you can mocap pinguins and make them look good becasue well, they are pinguins, but with humans and photo-real humans, you'll just go into the uncanny valley where they may LOOK nice but the animation will be creepy.

It's just the differnce between the characters and animation in The Incredibles or Ratatouille vs. Monser house. If you look at the trailers for Ratatouille, the human charcters are far from photo-real, but they are believable and appealing and you identify with them and care for them, but in monster house, there were always that feeling of "computer animation" throughout the film.

[Garibaldi]

Back to topic, if Weta could make Gollum perform so well, I'm pretty sure they won't have any problems with Tintin.

I would think that Andy Sirkus would get most of the credit for that, wouldn't you?

[cresshead]

the best performance capture i've seen so far in a film is in :-
Renaissance

http://www.futuremovies.co.uk/review.asp?ID=554

http://www.rueducommerce.fr/dvd/images/DVD/Screenshots/RENAISSANCE-PERSO3.jpg


so if they use similar methods to this and monster house they should do good...just stay away from polar express producton methods!

[P_T]

I would think that Andy Sirkus would get most of the credit for that, wouldn't you?Yes but I was responding to a post about whether Weta can handle the difference between VFX and full animated feature and it sort of tied to the doubt about using mocap in this project.

So in essence, I was merely saying that if AL and R&H could pull it off (a matter of opinion of course), Weta's success in enhancing and tansferring Serkis' performance to digital Gollum should be a good indication that they can pull it off again in this Tintin project.

[switchblade327]

I would think that Andy Sirkus would get most of the credit for that, wouldn't you?

As I'd heard some WETA person say on a "making of" LOTR, Gollum was about 30% mocap, 30% keyframed and 40% highly keyed mocap. I might have those mixed around but they definitely said 30/30/40 on this particular show.

I think this has been discussed on other threads; I seem to recall some controversy about how Mr Sirkus couldn't be nomiated for a best actor oscar because so much of it was animated/animated over.

Renaissance seems to me like a good example of a style that lends itself to mocap. Ive only seen the trailers but I can see the characters are stylized but not too much. They're also relatively in-proportion to a normal human.

[Flog]

Again with the Uncanny Valley. I'm sorry they are going to fall in the uncanny valley and I guarantee this movie will be a flop. I hope they don't spend too much money on it.

I think they are really doing this as a research project and trying to promote newer technologies and looking for projects to use and expand upon and hopefully perfect for the future and well you have to start somewhere and move forward.

I just don't think audiences will be drawn to it. The old Tintin fans are going to expect to see Tintin. Adults will think it's a 3d animated movie and will not be attracted to it since animation is still associated with children, live action is more appealing. Kids won't in anyway be attracted to it, not cartoony and too realistic. What is the point of 3d realistic CG outside of mixing it with live action to expand the live action?

I always thought it pointless and CG for the sake of CG.

We'll see how this goes through. Prediction 100 million to make + another 100 million for Peter Jackson to remake and add an extra hour. 10-15 Million at the box office opening weekend!

[cresshead]

of course opinions on what ''will'' happen are one thing when put up against 'what actually happens' can be something totally different....time will tell...remember all the exec's bailing on titanic?..they didn't believe it would break even....turned out it was the film that made the most money in the whole history of cinema....'opinions'....

you maybe right....but then how many successful films have you personally made compared to my speilberg n co?:)

[GoldenCamel]

Yes but I was responding to a post about whether Weta can handle the difference between VFX and full animated feature and it sort of tied to the doubt about using mocap in this project.

So in essence, I was merely saying that if AL and R&H could pull it off (a matter of opinion of course), Weta's success in enhancing and tansferring Serkis' performance to digital Gollum should be a good indication that they can pull it off again in this Tintin project.

Well, first of all, Gollum was not fully mo-caped. Of course they used andy serkis and his performace as reference for animators but all of those close up facial acting was hand keyed.

Second, you are again forgetting something, Gollum is a creature, a mythical character so to speak, he's not a human. Animating photo real humans and making them believable is something that simply can not be done, you can make them stylized like pixar does and it comes out believable but you can't have them both.

I'm hundred percent agreed with flog, what is the point of using CG if you're going to simply copy live-action? Make it live-action then! If you're going to use computer animation, do something that live action can not do, take it beyond mere photo-real.

[Redz]

I didn't like Happy Feet, even thou it wasn't all mocaped and there WERE some hand-keyed animation in there. But there is one big difference, you can mocap pinguins and make them look good becasue well, they are pinguins, but with humans and photo-real humans, you'll just go into the uncanny valley where they may LOOK nice but the animation will be creepy.

I don't recall any penguins being on the mocap stage for Happy Feet. This is one of those discussions I fell like staying out of, it seems to be an on going debate.

[P_T]

Well, first of all, Gollum was not fully mo-caped. Of course they used andy serkis and his performace as reference for animators but all of those close up facial acting was hand keyed.

Second, you are again forgetting something, Gollum is a creature, a mythical character so to speak, he's not a human. Animating photo real humans and making them believable is something that simply can not be done, you can make them stylized like pixar does and it comes out believable but you can't have them both.Umm... Didn't I say "Weta's success in enhancing and tansferring Serkis' performance" in my previous post? ;) I thought that was broad enough term to explain the process.

Secondly, I interpret the article differently to you.
Jackson said WETA will stay true to Remi's original designs in bringing the cast of Tintin to life, but that the characters won't look cartoonish.

"Instead," Jackson said, "we're making them look photorealistic; the fibers of their clothing, the pores of their skin and each individual hair. They look exactly like real people --but real Hergé people!"I take that as, while they're giving it a photorealistic treatment, the design and look of the characters themselves will still be stylised. If I'm right, then they won't have any problem with Uncanny Valley.

I do agree though, some hollywood filmmakers seem so obsessed with photorealism that they're trying to fit everything into that visual style and noone's even want to try cell shading coz they think 2D is dead.

[ysvry]

I think its not going to work too. Besides there was already a 2d version that was done quite well. Remember how hollywood ****ed up the flinstones with real people, I think now we get the same with tintin only the people get a digital sauce over them, lets wait we might get a good laugh out of it, are there any stills released yet?

[yann22]

I just don't see the appeal of turning Tintin into 3d. The whole charm of the series, both visually and from a story-telling perspective, lies in the 'ligne clair' and all that comes with it. I don't even know what photorealistic and stylized is supposed to look like - real Herge people?!

Frankly , I found "SPirou et Fantasio " much more interesting.

I like both, but in contrast to Tintin, "Spirou et Fantasio" would be great 3d material, and the Marsupilami is practically begging to be turned into a 3d character. Animators could have endless fun with this character and, if done right, everybody would love it. Just to think of the all the possibilities there :thumbsup: .

[vrempire]

I love it if Tin Tin can be turned into a live movie and not a 3D or 2D movie.

But using all the 3D /special effect stuff to do the action. Hopefully as good as Spiderman 3.

[GoldenCamel]

It seems that I'm not the only one who thinks Spielberg and Jackson are going to ruin Tin Tin with their photoreal pores and mo-cap animation. Mark Mayerson who teaches animation at Sheridan College is of the same opinion, read his views

http://mayersononanimation.blogspot.com/2007/05/tin-tin-done-right.html

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