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View Full Version : 3ds Max rigging questions dump... I have a lot of questions...


BigMouth
05-13-2007, 01:44 AM
My new question... (5/29/2007)

hey guys!

new question for you all. up to the challenge? :love:

I have an arm that is being set up for both IK & FK use. I'm *really close on this one.

The problem is:
When I move the hand controller, it moves normally like an IK controller. This is good! This is what I want.
When I rotate the FK controllers (the pink circles), they work normally. This is also good.
So far, everything is working exactly how I want it.

However...

When I move the hand using the IK hand controller, it indeed works, but it DOES NOT bring the FK circle controllers along with it. The FK controllers stay behind, much like the eblow swivels. They still function, so it'll still rotate the arm when I rotate them, but I can't get the FK controllers to actually follow the arm when the IK controller moves the hand.
How do I fix this?

I've tried creating an Fk/Ik switcher, but for the life of me couldn't get it to work.

If I could just get the FK controller on the elbow to follow the arm when the IK moves the hand, I'd be very happy. I've tried constraining the FK Controllers to different parts of the arm, helper objects, etc... but they end up flipping and distorting the whole arm.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v678/ParkerD/question5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v678/ParkerD/question6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v678/ParkerD/question7.jpg

Any help you can give is greatly appreciated!

------------------------------------------------------------
question on 5-13-2007

My knowledge in 3ds Max rigging with bones is severly limited. I am trying to create my own rigg that does everything I need it to do, because Biped doesn't quite work as well as I like. Also, I'm just trying to make myself more marketable by being able to create production-quality riggs in addition to my main focus (animation).

I have been following some fantastic tutorials online, and bought 2 books on the subject, but they don't quite cover some of the obscure things that happen while I'm following along with a tutorial.

My first question:

When I'm in the beginning and just laid out a skeleton, I notice that bones will do this bizarre scaling/skewing thing whenever I rotate them. How do I stop the bones from stretching whenever I rotate them? (Yes, I tried just creating all the bones in 'top' view and using local euler control, and using the 'lock scale' feature in the Link Info under Heirarchy).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v678/ParkerD/question1.jpg

Second question:

Often times, a bone doesn't rotate at the end of the joint, but will rotate in the MIDDLE of the bone in a very unrealistic manner. How do I change the pivot point so it rotates properly at the end/start of the bone? (Yes, I tried adjusting the pivot point in the hierachy panel, but that ends up moving the entire bone chain itself).

Third Question:

For whatever reason, bones tend to get slightly off rotation when building the skeleton and linking the joints together. Is there a way to readjust independently so they that they are oriented correctly without affecting all the other bones in the heirarchy?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v678/ParkerD/question3.jpg

I'm sure I'll have a ton of more questions and will only post them in this thread instead of making a new one for each question.

I appreciate any feedback or advice from those who take the time to help me out. It's very much appreciated.

Also, I just ordered a few rigging DVDs from the CGAcademy. Has anyone already seen these?
Rigging FK Spine, Leg, and Foot by Paul Neale
http://www.cg-academy.net/pages/topic_rigging/dvds_rigging_intermediate_1/dvds_rigging_intermediate_1.php

Rigging Spline IK, Hand, and Arm by Paul Neale
http://www.cg-academy.net/pages/topic_rigging/dvds_rigging_intermediate_1/dvds_rigging_intermediate_1.php


The goal of the rigg I'm trying to create would be similar to Character Studio biped, but with stretchy/squashy limbs, and a spline IK for the spinke instead of an FK driven spine.

Thanks for reading! And for any helpful suggestions you can give me!

EricDLegare
05-13-2007, 02:30 AM
Well, I'd say go for the BONE TOOL, in wich you'll find the BONE EDIT MODE :deal: might be of help to you :)


Non-uniform scaling might not get along well with rotation too...



And Paul Neale's DVDs are AWESOME :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

martinez
05-13-2007, 02:31 AM
1) Your bones skew when they rotate because there is non-uniform scale applied to them. To modify the position and orientation of bones after you've created them use the "Bone Tools" found in the Character menu. Click on "Bone Edit Mode" then use the move and rotate tools to position the bones. Use the width and height to change their size.

The transform locks only stop users from modifying them. Expressions and scripts will still transform objects.

A favorite tool of mine is Rigging Army Knife from Wahooney. It like the "Bone Tools" on steriods.

2) Your bone rotates from the center because you have Max set to "use selection center". There's a button in the middle of the main toolbar with two boxes and a dot. Change it to the two boxes with two dots. This will use your objects pivot instead of the selection center.

Note once you turn on the animate button, that button gets greyed out, and object always rotate from there pivot.

3) Again "Bone Edit Mode" will allow you to do this.

The Paul Neale DVD's are excellent and Paul himself hangs out in this forum

As for spines. I never really liked spline IK spines. I prefer a spine that can blend between a full FK spine and non-inherit rotation FK spine.

EricDLegare
05-13-2007, 02:33 AM
1) Your bones skew when they rotate because there is non-uniform scale applied to them. To modify the position and orientation of bones after you've created them use the "Bone Tools" found in the Character menu. Click on "Bone Edit Mode" then use the move and rotate tools to position the bones. Use the width and height to change their size.

The transform locks only stop users from modifying them. Expressions and scripts will still transform objects.

A favorite tool of mine is Rigging Army Knife from Wahooney. It like the "Bone Tools" on steriods.

2) Your bone rotates from the center because you have Max set to "use selection center". There's a button in the middle of the main toolbar with two boxes and a dot. Change it to the two boxes with two dots. This will use your objects pivot instead of the selection center.

Note once you turn on the animate button, that button gets greyed out, and object always rotate from there pivot.

3) Again "Bone Edit Mode" will allow you to do this.

The Paul Neale DVD's are excellent and Paul himself hangs out in this forum

As for spines. I never really liked spline IK spines. I prefer a spine that can blend between a full FK spine and non-inherit rotation FK spine.

:thumbsup:

eek
05-13-2007, 02:57 AM
you need to reset the identity matrix on the bones to fix the skew, as there working in the transform space with non-uniform scale. i.e the unit lengths are not equal which will cause the bones matrix not to be othogonalized.

for example you could try: $.transform = (orthogonalize $.transform) which will make the vectors of the transform of the bone perpendicular to each other (90 degrees)

BigMouth
05-13-2007, 04:44 AM
wow, that was quick! you guys rock. Thanks for the helpful tips, and Martinez that was very detailed and very helpful.


btw... you're at ensemble? where are they located? i'm at 7 Studios in Santa Monica. It's not my responsibility to rigg, but I just want to learn how because it's something I've always been intriqued and intimidated by.

i can't wait to get my hands on Paul Neale's dvds.

exigolight
05-13-2007, 11:41 AM
complicared linking trees also makes this issue !!:sad:

BigMouth
05-14-2007, 01:55 AM
Hey all,

Thanks again for the replies. I am still having problems with bones skewing. I made sure that all the bones had uniform scale and they still morph weirdly.

I notice that they bones will usually rotate without any problems in certain axis's, but not in others.

Here's what I am doing:
I create the bones in 'top view' with 'local' coordinates and uniform scale selected. I adjust the bones in 'bone edit mode' to make it fit properly with the mesh. But whenever I rotate the bones (with Bone Edit off), to make sure that they're linking together correctly, something always ends up stretching or skewing awkardly.

Any other trouble shooting tips is greatly appreciatd.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v678/ParkerD/question4.jpg

shibumenon
05-14-2007, 09:47 AM
Check scales of all the bones in the heirarchy, not only the ones that are skewing.
(Use the numerical transfrom floater to check). It has to be a non-uniform scaling issue, as mentioned by others in this thread.

Keep the scale transform type-in floater open by right clicking on the scale Icon.
Select the last bone on the finger, and walk up the heirarchy. While doing so, keep an eye on the scale transform floater, to see if there is any bone which shows a non 100, 100, 100 scale.
It could be that the hand bone (wrist/palm ) is the culprit....

If you find none, then post the file :-)

zzama
05-14-2007, 10:55 AM
NEVER EVER EVER and NEVER scale bones or any object....even uniform scaling

you can try this script to filter objects that are scaled. scaled objects will be selected

select (for o in objects where o.scale != [1,1,1] collect o)

scrimski
05-14-2007, 11:38 AM
PEN wrote a script which does similar and more.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=6&t=489378&

zzama
05-14-2007, 01:38 PM
oh, that's sweet!

PEN
05-14-2007, 08:07 PM
Actualy just checking for the scale parameters on an object isn't enough to tell if it has been scaled. It will work much of the time but not all the time.

The tool that I wrote will catch all objects that have been scaled and report if they have scale or have been mirrored. It allow for resetting bones as well as all geometry. It is NOT ment to be used on rigged characters but it will work on simple hierarchy chains like a bone chain or any other objects linked together. Once you start to add constraints and IK solvers it will just make a mess of it all as there are way to many considerations to take into account to make it practical.

Eek, although your answer is quite correct I have the feeling that it will go so far over the head of the person that posted this as to not be any help at all. In my DVD's I shead a bit of light on what Eek was talking about but only enough for you to understand what you should and should not do. If you really want to understand what is going on I suggest Bobos, The Matrix Explained. This is not for raw beginners and knowledge of Max script is a must.

eek
05-14-2007, 08:45 PM
Actualy just checking for the scale parameters on an object isn't enough to tell if it has been scaled. It will work much of the time but not all the time.

The tool that I wrote will catch all objects that have been scaled and report if they have scale or have been mirrored. It allow for resetting bones as well as all geometry. It is NOT ment to be used on rigged characters but it will work on simple hierarchy chains like a bone chain or any other objects linked together. Once you start to add constraints and IK solvers it will just make a mess of it all as there are way to many considerations to take into account to make it practical.

Eek, although your answer is quite correct I have the feeling that it will go so far over the head of the person that posted this as to not be any help at all. In my DVD's I shead a bit of light on what Eek was talking about but only enough for you to understand what you should and should not do. If you really want to understand what is going on I suggest Bobos, The Matrix Explained. This is not for raw beginners and knowledge of Max script is a must.

Quoted for agreement - i need a translator :)

BigMouth
05-14-2007, 09:38 PM
Actualy just checking for the scale parameters on an object isn't enough to tell if it has been scaled. It will work much of the time but not all the time.

The tool that I wrote will catch all objects that have been scaled and report if they have scale or have been mirrored. It allow for resetting bones as well as all geometry. It is NOT ment to be used on rigged characters but it will work on simple hierarchy chains like a bone chain or any other objects linked together. Once you start to add constraints and IK solvers it will just make a mess of it all as there are way to many considerations to take into account to make it practical.

Eek, although your answer is quite correct I have the feeling that it will go so far over the head of the person that posted this as to not be any help at all. In my DVD's I shead a bit of light on what Eek was talking about but only enough for you to understand what you should and should not do. If you really want to understand what is going on I suggest Bobos, The Matrix Explained. This is not for raw beginners and knowledge of Max script is a must.

PEN,

I just recieved your rigging DVDs today! I'm watching them right now and it's blowing my mind. Yah, I got my bone skew problem fixed already watching the first 20 minutes of your tutorial DVD. This is golden stuff for anyone interested in approaching rigging. Top notch man :thumbsup:

BigMouth
05-15-2007, 06:42 PM
deleted post

PEN
05-28-2007, 07:54 PM
Glad that you are enjoying the DVD's. I hope that they are a great help.

scrimski
05-28-2007, 08:10 PM
They are. Any plans on upcoming releases related to advanced rigging topics maybe?

EricDLegare
05-28-2007, 11:04 PM
They are. Any plans on upcoming releases related to advanced rigging topics maybe?

Advanced rigging DVD series by Paul Neale = pure awesomeness :D

Can't wait !

BigMouth
05-30-2007, 06:01 AM
hey guys!

new question for you all. up to the challenge? :love:

I have an arm that is being set up for both IK & FK use. I'm *really close on this one.

When I move the hand controller, it moves normally like an IK controller. This is good! This is what I want.
When I rotate the FK controllers (the pink circles), they work normally. This is also good.
So far, everything is working exactly how I want it.

The problem is...

When I move the hand using the IK hand controller, it indeed works, but it DOES NOT bring the FK circle controllers along with it. The FK controllers stay behind, much like the eblow swivels. They still function, so it'll still rotate the arm when I rotate them, but I can't get the FK controllers to actually follow the arm when the IK controller moves the hand.
How do I fix this?

I've tried creating an Fk/Ik switcher, but for the life of me couldn't get it to work.

If I could just get the FK controller on the elbow to follow the arm when the IK moves the hand, I'd be very happy. I've tried constraining the FK Controllers to different parts of the arm, helper objects, etc... but they end up flipping and distorting the whole arm.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v678/ParkerD/question5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v678/ParkerD/question6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v678/ParkerD/question7.jpg

Any help will be greatly appreciated!

BigMouth
05-30-2007, 08:50 AM
okay, I've gotten the FK/IK switcher to work! :thumbsup:

But it doesn't seem to work 100%... :hmm:

When I move the IK controller, it moves pretty good and the FK controls don't follow. That's okay.

Because when I pump up the slider for the FK to 100%, the FK, to some extent, positions itself to where it SHOULD be, but not all the way (it'll get about halfway to where it should be).

The FK Controls work perfectly fine... they just aren't aligned to the arm 100% when I turn up the slider for the FK. :shrug:

I'm not sure how much of an improvement this is... since before the FK/IK switcher, I had both Fk/Ik working nearly simultaneously (which to me would be better than having to switch between them). :hmm:

Anyway, thanks again for any suggestions you can give.

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