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Irie
03-11-2003, 05:56 PM
Hey guys,

Im having an issue. Everytime i tweak out my BESM settings in a scene (this one in particular has 20 lights) and save it, close the scene and reopen it, all the settings i just tweaked are sent right back to how it was before... all the lights are turned off in the BESM panel and all my spec highlights and eveyrthing are reverted back!

has anyone experienced this? is there a way around it?

thanks
matt

Shade01
03-11-2003, 06:39 PM
It's a bug that hastened my removal of BESM from tools I use. I'm not sure what causes it, but it originally started when Lightwave released version 7 which broke all plugins before their patch. Since it isnt worked on anymore it probably still looks at some of the code from that release. It still works for some people though.

devin
03-11-2003, 07:52 PM
Just a further note...

BESM also crashes LW if I have any texture channels applied to a surface or if I try to edit surfaces by scene.

Looks like it's falling behind. Unreal seems to work well enough though if I can ever figure it out.

Irie
03-12-2003, 03:05 AM
thanks shade and dev....

I found out a way around it... and i already knew it, just didnt feel like taking the time.

Basically all you have to do is send the scene to modeler and load all the surfaces (assuming that you save the surfaces you want) in through surf editor there.

i am not having problems anymore! :)

it also could have something to do with teh amount of surfaces you have in one scene, i dumped about 40 while i was loading them thru modeler, so i can be sure which is the right solution.
:airguitar

Griffon
03-12-2003, 07:24 AM
If their are bugs in BESM it is generally because no one bothered to email me with the problem or send me an example scene. I do have a small update coming out that will include the source code.

-Eric

devin
03-12-2003, 09:08 AM
Hey Eric,

I didn't realize that you were still supporting BESM. Irie and I will have to get some files/bug notes out to you. We're currently using it on a music video project and hope to have some images and such to show real soon.

Thanks for a great plug though!

/devin

Irie
03-12-2003, 01:37 PM
most definitely! i didnt even k now where to begin sending bug info!

despite somethign small like this, BESM is still a wonderful plug!

we'll get some stuff to you soon :)

Celshader
03-12-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Irie
most definitely! i didnt even k now where to begin sending bug info!

Ditto. I just sent a bug report to the email address posted on Celshaded.com; will send more soon.

Griffon
03-13-2003, 09:42 PM
Last test version I built. Consider it beta:

www.battlefleet.net\BESM_1_pi_win.zip

-Eric

Irie
03-13-2003, 09:47 PM
wow, thanks. is there a sheet on changes etc?

impressive feedback

Shade01
03-13-2003, 10:32 PM
What a nice surprise. It'll be fun to play around with BESM again.

Griffon
03-14-2003, 08:17 PM
I'm not sure the last version that NT released, but this version includes numerous bug fixes and small enhancements. It also contains the big conversion to true multi-threaded support. 1.pi should have a signifigant speed increase over previous versions.

-Eric

Shade01
03-14-2003, 08:52 PM
The one thing to me that is really holding BESM back is the fact that it doesn't work with textures without lowering the opacity of the color, which allows the texture to show but takes away the color. Instead of replacing the texture it should have options to overlay the shader instead. If you added this in it would make a world of difference.

Irie
03-14-2003, 09:02 PM
cant you do that? turn the color texture use to "shaded" and force color down to say 50% or so...? or are you talking about more advanced surfaces? i havent gone so far as that yet...

Shade01
03-14-2003, 09:25 PM
Actually, after playing around with the shader some more I noticed a new option decal or shade a texture onto BESM, so that kind of solves a problem I had with the earlier versions. Eric, if your still reading this thread I did have a couple of notes:

1. Your ink lines seem to be using some type of incidence angle as a method to draw the inklines. This creates an inkline with varying thin/ thickness to it. It doesn't hold that well for animation and I think there should be an option for an inkline of even thickness.

2. You can turn on an option to have a cel zone account for the color of the light and it works, but it only seems to work when I activate on the left most zone, or what would be the darkest zone. It doesn't seem to work on more than one zone. Is this a bug or it intentional?

3.I notice that when the Ink Over is enabled there is significant slowdown in the rendering, but I can't tell exactly what Ink Over is doing, what does it do?

4.What does light power do?

Overall I'd say this plugin is already showing improvement over the last version and it's coming along nicely!

Irie
03-14-2003, 09:35 PM
shade, what version of LW do you have? That decal/shaded option near force color has been there for a while now... well as long as i have had 7.5.

or maybe its better to ask, what version of BESM...?

Celshader
03-14-2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Irie
cant you do that? turn the color texture use to "shaded" and force color down to say 50% or so...? or are you talking about more advanced surfaces? i havent gone so far as that yet...

No -- don't set "Color Texture Use" to anything other than "None" when using a color texture on the surface. Otherwise, you will bring down LightWave.

To use a color texture map, set the Opacity of the Zone to something less than 100%. If you set it all the way to 0%, your texture map will be fully revealed. I like being able to reveal/conceal a texture map on a Zone-by-Zone basis this way...it opens up possibilities for recreating stippled ink drawings. Think about it -- create your own black-and-white halftone, texture the surface with a front projection map so that the whole surface is coated with dots, then use BESM to reveal/conceal this texture based on the lighting. The brighter Zone would have an Opacity of 100% and its color set to paper-white; the "shading" Zone would have an Opacity of 0% to reveal the texture. Least, I think it could work...

---

Even with Opacity set to 0%, you can still tweak the shading of the Zone by tweaking Brightness and Saturation. I did so for the face of this BESM-shaded girl, which uses an image map to define her eyebrows:
http://www.celshader.com/gallery/besm/

I bumped up the Saturation of the shaded Zone. I remember that I had planned to use a slightly greyer ink line instead of true black, but Saturating the slightly greyer ink line would change its RGB values and thwart BESM's "InkOver" feature. By making the ink line a true black of RGB 0 0 0, that ink line stayed black no matter what the Saturation level did, since anything times 0 equals 0.

I also remember BESM's "InkOver" could not see the eyebrows when I had an alpha image map layered on top of the color image map. I would up using a color texture that covered the whole face surface. I didn't like having to tweak the face color in Photoshop instead of in LightWave, but them's the breaks. :D

---

Originally posted by Griffon
Last test version I built. Consider it beta:

www.battlefleet.net\BESM_1_pi_win.zip

"The link could not be saved." Argh!!! :sad:

UPDATE: It downloaded! Woo-hoo! :love:

Irie
03-14-2003, 09:38 PM
celshader: why do you say that you will bring LW down with shaded turned on? rendertimes? crash problems? if its crash problems, i have had a few, but i dont think that it was related to that... although i never entertained it as a factor...

please explain... and thanks for the tips!

Celshader
03-14-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Irie
celshader: why do you say that you will bring LW down with shaded turned on? rendertimes? crash problems? if its crash problems, i have had a few, but i dont think that it was related to that... although i never entertained it as a factor...

please explain... and thanks for the tips!

No problem. :)

---

The version of BESM that I have (LightWave 7.5a) has a bug that will Dr. Watson LightWave.

Take a surface, apply a color texture to it, apply BESM, and set "Color Texture Use" in the "Zones" tab to anything other than "None." It will bring down LightWave.

I've seen this pop up in a few threads, so it's not just me.

You can't try to "trick" BESM, either. If you apply BESM, set "Color Texture Use" to anything other than "None," and then apply a color texture to the surface, it will Dr. Watson LightWave.

If the surface has no color texture applied, setting "Color Texture Use" to anything other than "None" will not Dr. Watson LightWave.

Irie
03-14-2003, 09:47 PM
strange... im using it on a large project on many many surfaces (shaded texture use) with no *real* problems... i have been having save problems where surfaces arent properly saved... but that might just involve an extra "save all obj" click or something... in my case, i just made all the surfaces, saved them all, and loaded them into modeler. it was a pain in the ass, but actually makes me feel much better.. i dont have to worry about the surfaces at all anymore, just a matter of loading them in.

but good to know, nonetheless. thanks for explaining it.

Celshader
03-14-2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Shade01
I think there should be an option for an inkline of even thickness.

Use LightWave Edges! They look great, they work, and they're predictable! :)
http://www.celshader.com/gallery/kara/about4.htm

Originally posted by Shade01

3.I notice that when the Ink Over is enabled there is significant slowdown in the rendering, but I can't tell exactly what Ink Over is doing, what does it do?

Used right, it does this:
http://www.celshader.com/classic/v_ink/

It's cartoon transparency, where only the "ink line" can "come through" the surface. You can use it for a specific anime style, where the ink lines of the eyebrows get drawn on top of the hair -- I first noticed this while watching a screening of Escaflowne at an anime club. It happened especially on the character of Allen Schezar:
http://www.aniphelia.net/esca/images/allen.html

You can also use it to shade Velma's glasses in Scooby-Doo. The glasses would be an opaque white, but the ink lines of her eyes could still be seen through the glasses.

Because it's a raytracing effect, it slows down render times.

Don't use InkOver's sliders to pick your color -- it will not always work. After you enable InkOver, click on another tab (like "Zones") and return to the InkOver tab. Only then will clicking on the white rectangles to the left of the sliders allow you to access the Color Picker. Choosing your Ink Color with the Color Picker will work.

Griffon
03-15-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Shade01
Actually, after playing around with the shader some more I noticed a new option decal or shade a texture onto BESM, so that kind of solves a problem I had with the earlier versions. Eric, if your still reading this thread I did have a couple of notes:

1. Your ink lines seem to be using some type of incidence angle as a method to draw the inklines. This creates an inkline with varying thin/ thickness to it. It doesn't hold that well for animation and I think there should be an option for an inkline of even thickness.

Yeah, that's all the hack does. I personally use LW's edges combined with BESM edges for my ink lines. Doing good ink lines is hard to do in LW due to getting the right information from the SDK. You have to jump through alot of hoops.

2. You can turn on an option to have a cel zone account for the color of the light and it works, but it only seems to work when I activate on the left most zone, or what would be the darkest zone. It doesn't seem to work on more than one zone. Is this a bug or it intentional?

Hmmm. I'd have to look at this one. Is it possible that the colour is being clamped at 1.0?

3.I notice that when the Ink Over is enabled there is significant slowdown in the rendering, but I can't tell exactly what Ink Over is doing, what does it do?

InkOver is for the effect like where a characters eyebrows show through the hair. This uses ray-tracing so is alot slower.

4.What does light power do?

This controls the light falloff accross a surface. If I recall right the squared falloff is closer to the LW celshader

Overall I'd say this plugin is already showing improvement over the last version and it's coming along nicely!

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