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View Full Version : DV transfer, firewire and usb?


Tellerve
03-11-2003, 01:19 AM
I took some film on a Sony DV camera and was wondering if their was anything besides a speed difference to transfer the information from the tape to a hard drive. This being firewire, 400 megabites a second vs 11 for usb 1.1. If I can only use USB at this present moment will it be ok or is there something I don't know about that should necessitate getting a firewire card?

Thanks,

Tellerve

beaker
03-11-2003, 07:12 AM
Can you actually get video off of the usb? The last dv cam I had just used the usb cable for getting still images off the flash media.

moovieboy
03-11-2003, 08:36 AM
I agree with Beaker in scratching my head here... I've never seen any way to digitally get video off of a Sony DV camcorder except its ilink/firewire connections...

But, hey, if we're wrong, fill us in! :D

-Tom

derelict
03-11-2003, 09:08 AM
let me know if it works. than there would be an alternative to whatever we have now.

KayosIII
03-11-2003, 12:36 PM
The latest Sony MiniDV's do in fact allow the user to this - The Canon's Like the one I have here do not (thanks Canon)...

I imagine that the USB Link will be like the firewire link but not in realtime. But I don't know because I haven't tested it.

dvornik
03-11-2003, 05:21 PM
Why would you want to transfer via USB anyway? The time you gonna waste will cost you way more than a firewire card. They are like $15 these days.

Tellerve
03-11-2003, 06:45 PM
I understand the firewire would be ideal, but I didn't want to go into the whole situaction but it appears for proper clarification I will have to.

I'm down at a university that my friend goes to, where he checked out the camera. They didn't give him any firewire cable. I don't have a camera at home so I can't take the tape home and get it off there. I looked into getting a firewire card here but at BestBuy and Compusa they are ridiculously expensive and don't come with a cable, that's an absurd $35 more. I see at Newegg they have a card for $30 that comes with a 6' cable. I'd much rather get that but I don't have time to order it and have it arrive before I have to go home.

My friend does have a usb cable from a digital camera he has and that's what we were going to try and transfer to a black hard drive he has that I would then take home.

Make sense now? The whole reason I asked was this is a freaky situaction that wasn't planned well by me...I should have gone ahead earlier and ordered a firewire card, but c'est la vie. I completely understand usb 1.1 bites, I just wanted some bright heads to tell me if it would be quality issues or just REALLY slow transfer.

And beaker, you've done well to make me think your right and I might have to buy a firewire card anyways. You might only be able to get images off the memory stick with usb :(

EDIT: picked up a firewire card and cable and got it into the computer. We used the DV 25Mbit/s for the quality settings but I think his hard drive was too slow. After it copied everything on playback the audio is garbled most of the time and the time counter jumps in .3 second increments. Also when we watched it didn't look good at all in my opinion. Very blocky, which I'm not sure what was the cause for that...maybe I can't get better with a DV camera. I'm really not happy, as although I think the audio could be Hard drive related I don't see how the video could be as much hard drive related. I told my friend this is why people get raid arrays of scsi hard drives :)


Tellerve

KayosIII
03-12-2003, 12:56 AM
Um because you might want to give a friend or a relative a bit of some video footage that you took of them and they might not have firewire.

derelict
03-12-2003, 03:12 AM
Because USB is on every bloody computer that is churning out from the assembly line...thats why :)

Originally posted by dvornik
Why would you want to transfer via USB anyway? The time you gonna waste will cost you way more than a firewire card. They are like $15 these days.

dvornik
03-12-2003, 03:44 AM
Will an application to capture through USB be on any computer? I don't think so. I'm sure if it exists it's something propriatary.

derelict
03-12-2003, 04:05 AM
A very good point dvonik. i am banking on it being as friendly as firewire (cross fingers) and that it will be downward compatable too with the immenant USB 2.

Where i'm coming from is not so much about USB as to USB 2... which promise amazing high speed transfer (i am yet to verify its speed personally)... semi uncompress real-time transfer anyone?


Originally posted by dvornik
Will an application to capture through USB be on any computer? I don't think so. I'm sure if it exists it's something propriatary.

moovieboy
03-12-2003, 04:51 AM
Quick dumb question:

What is the speed of USB2 compared to the new firewire 800 (800Mps)?

A quick web search seems to say 480Mps... that can't be right, can it? :surprised

-Tom

moovieboy
03-12-2003, 05:00 AM
Crap... after continiuing my search, it looks like 480Mps IS the top speed... man, that's crazy!

http://www.apple.com/firewire/

Why isn't firewire more of a staple considering its speed (not to mention the cable lengths you can manage) now more than ever?

-Tom

dvornik
03-12-2003, 05:25 AM
Umm... What is so unusual about it? Yes, new firewire is faster. Yet USB2 like USB will be all over the place while firewire will remain an option.

Don't know about now but paying Apple for each firewire port certainly did not contribute to it's popularity with manufacturers.

Having said that I can't imagine why one would want to buy a PC without firewire. How much are the Firewire 800 PC cards anyway? Do they exist?

Tellerve
03-12-2003, 06:50 AM
I haven't seen Firewire 800 for PCs yet, only on Apple's computers.

Any thoughts on my question(s) a few posts back?

Thanks,

Tellerve

beaker
03-12-2003, 06:58 AM
>>Why isn't firewire more of a staple considering its speed (not to mention the cable lengths you can manage) now more than ever?

because intel doesnt own it :)

Another funny fact about usb2. Origianlly it had a 30% processor overhead. Alot of hardware manufacturers complained about it so they got it down to 15% after some optimization. Intel was seeing that mom and pop didnt need a 2 or 3 ghz machine to browse the web, so they had to add something else to suck up all that extra mhz so they would have to buy new machines.

Firewire on the otherhand totally bypasses the processor alltogether. No processor hit for the transfers.


>>Having said that I can't imagine why one would want to buy a PC without firewire. How much are the Firewire 800 PC cards anyway? Do they exist?

Most of the new motherboards in the last year all ship with onboard firewire so it the next year or two it will be as common as usb. 1394b/800mbps firewire is brand new so it won't filter into the pc till probably summer or so.

Can't wait for 1394c. It is wireless and runs at 1000mbps. Would be awsome to just walk into a room with a firewire hardrive and instantly share it with anyone in the room. Still probably 2 years before it becomes reality though.

dvornik
03-12-2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by beaker
>> Would be awsome to ... instantly share it with anyone in the room. Still probably 2 years before it becomes reality though. Good to see some old dot-com enthusiasm these days. :)

KayosIII
03-12-2003, 11:42 AM
Sorry guys.... USB2 does not support transfer rates needed for MiniDV transfers. At least no external USB2 hard-drive that I have seen has been rated with a fast enough transfer rate.

beaker
03-12-2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by KayosIII
Sorry guys.... USB2 does not support transfer rates needed for MiniDV transfers. At least no external USB2 hard-drive that I have seen has been rated with a fast enough transfer rate.
That doesn't make sense. USB2 runs at 480mbps and firewire runs at 400mbps. If firewire can do it at a lower rate, why cant usb2 do it also?

moovieboy
03-12-2003, 11:10 PM
Maybe USB2 can't keep a sustained MBPS rate high enough for mini-dv??

-Tom

KayosIII
03-13-2003, 12:17 AM
Yup thats what I was trying to say.... At least I haven't seen a real world implementation that supports the necessary sustained transfer rate.

dvornik
03-13-2003, 06:12 AM
Still doesn't make sense to me. In which case you should be concerned about sustained transfer rate with mini-dv? Isn't one of the main benefits of DV the fact that sustained transfer rates don't matter?

KayosIII
03-13-2003, 10:04 AM
If you want to access any sort of data in real time you are going to need a certain sustained transfer rate... Of course you could cache but I doubt it would work that well. Anyways the magic number for MiniDV is 15 or 25Mb/s but I can't remember which. Firewire only just does it.

Joviex
03-14-2003, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by moovieboy
Crap... after continiuing my search, it looks like 480Mps IS the top speed... man, that's crazy!

http://www.apple.com/firewire/

Why isn't firewire more of a staple considering its speed (not to mention the cable lengths you can manage) now more than ever?

-Tom

It is a staple. When people finally stop playing with PC's and Mac's, and get a any form of pro edit equipment, i.e. a tape deck that sports minidv, dvcam, and dvcpro, they'll soon realize the rest of the world is going along fine without usb or the newer usb2 useless.

I believe that USB was MS's big push into making an IEEE standard since it never likes what apple does. Too bad they still didn't get it right the second time around.

In the end, it does a good job replacing printer (ECP) and serial portds, it works for my mouse, which is now wireless, keyboard (wireless) lol, and my printer.

Joviex
03-14-2003, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by KayosIII
If you want to access any sort of data in real time you are going to need a certain sustained transfer rate... Of course you could cache but I doubt it would work that well. Anyways the magic number for MiniDV is 15 or 25Mb/s but I can't remember which. Firewire only just does it.

25Mbps, and firewire handles it fine. It can even handle DVCPro speeds of 50Mbps. That level, dvcpro, is pretty much pushing the older format, ergo, firewire 2. Especially with the new panasonic formats able to handle HD ala dvcpro widths.

dvornik
03-14-2003, 08:26 AM
Can you guys be more detailed on what you are talking about? I think realtime transfer needs are rather specialized and it has to be explained when you may want those speeds. I'm not trying to say that usb is better than firewire or microsoft is better than apple. I'm all about how end users can benefit from all of it.

beaker
03-14-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by amorano
I believe that USB was MS's big push into making an IEEE standard since it never likes what apple does. Too bad they still didn't get it right the second time around.

That would be intel that created usb, not m$. Also, apple is the first one that pushed usb(they adopted usb and firewire at the same time). They dumped ADB and switched to usb but at the time the pc world was still on ps2/serial(I remember because there were no devices for usb at the time and it pissed off alot of people because all their ADB devices couldnt even be replaced). I'm still bumbed that hard drive manufacturers didnt adapt firewire instead of serial ata for internal drives. Firewire is allready the standard for external drives and could have been adapted much faster for internal. They are allready paying the apple tax for the firewire since everyone is using it these days(was $1 per port originally, but that was changed to $1 per computer).

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