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TastyKellogg
04-16-2007, 03:50 AM
Hi
I'm an AE user simply because my school only offers courses for that.
My question is
since I'm a PC guy, I only can get to Shake 2.51 the last PC version. Is it that much different from 4.0? I really can't afford new Mac so I was planning to install it on my PC but if 2.51 and 4.0 are really different, then learning 2.51 would be useless.
So please tell me if theres big difference between them or not? or you would recommend learning 2.51 anyways?

Thanks

beaker
04-16-2007, 06:32 AM
There isn't a huge difference. 2.5 is just much more buggy but the base set of tools and gui is the same. 4.0 just has a lot more advanced tools that make film compositing more convienient: Film Grain, Morpher, Warper, Lens Warp, 3d camera, etc...

adisan
04-16-2007, 02:07 PM
the most important differences between 2.5 and 4.1 are:
- tracking an be used on roto points or paint strokes
- psd support
- audio file support
- film color calibration through truelight and cineshake
- film grain tool (match grain)
- warper & morpher with tracking support
- lens warp (curve based analizer + distort/undistort)
- smoothcam
- autoalign
- multilayer (instead of nesting multiple overs)
- new layering modes
- 3d compositing space (never used and never will)
+ many more little additions

overall it's a different beast but as beaker said the basic tools are the same.

Hugh
04-17-2007, 01:16 PM
- 3d compositing space (never used and never will)


I have used, and never will again....

Kai01W
04-17-2007, 11:27 PM
I have used, and never will again....
What? Any 3D space or the one in shake?
I really miss a decent 3D space when working with shake. Now in big houses, with strong specialisation and 3D departments it might not be such a problem, but coming from flame I really miss it.



-k

SebKaine
04-19-2007, 11:38 AM
well i' m really a beginner in shake , but it looks that you can find good pluggins and macros that give you equivalent to most of those missing function ( Wrap , Grain, smooth cam etc ... ) . Except , Audio and 3D of course ! And those function are not essential ...

But beaker is right Shake 4 on Linux is much more stable than the 2.5 ! However With my new NVidia Card i've got a lot of display bug , with shake 2.5 on windows XP ! i don't know where it comes from, but it's maybe link with an OpenGL problem ... don't now !

Fusion is an excellent option too , he is Best in 3D and has great Particles engine. But it crash a LOT with big scenes !

beaker
04-19-2007, 03:11 PM
The replacement plugins: reFlex, Genarts Sapphire and Foundry Furnace/Tinder will cost you 3x the cost of buying a mac and Shake 4.1. Actually they will cost more then buying the linux version of shake for that matter.

TastyKellogg
04-19-2007, 03:40 PM
THanks everyone for the reply!
Actually, I think I'm gonna have enough money to buy a MacBook Pro this summer!
So I think that solves everything. Get MacBook Pro and buy Shake then I'm all good.
But I did want to ask you tho. How hard is SHake compared to AE? Any book you can recommend?
I'm serious about getting better as a compositor and would like every and any resources I can get.
MacBook Pro yay!

SebKaine
04-19-2007, 11:59 PM
for simplicity i don't know it depends some friends said that AE is really easy , but i am completely unable to use it , i don't have a good feelings with it ! I find Shake very logical , and this books will really help you to understand this logic : http://www.amazon.com/Science-Compositing-Kaufmann-Computer-Graphics/dp/0121339602
it was written by one of the Shake conceptor , from nothing real !

But i thinks that shake will really help you to understand what you do ! where as in fusion some operation are made for you , in shake you'll have to make all your connections by yourself ! Anyways in my school we use both , and i find fusion really really great , except the stability problem ! but i try combustion , fusion and shake , and my favorite comps apps is shake !

sakroda
05-10-2007, 03:22 PM
if you're getting some problems on shake windows version maybe you can try this tipi found on web..
Right click to my cpmputer Preferences
Find Windows Environment variables
New
write this one:
NR_OPENGL_RENDER
and give it "1"
its has to be fast on menu and drop down menu..

jbills
05-10-2007, 10:34 PM
Get MacBook Pro and buy Shake then I'm all good.
How hard is SHake compared to AE?

On your pc, it is possible to dual boot to linux and run shake 4 on the linux side, pricing issues aside.

Shake is dead - still does an ok job and worth learning, but eventually you're going to have to apply the knowledge to another program. Honestly, given the history of software like Rayz, Cineon, Illusion, all of those - I give it less than a year before expiring. Just like the rest, there will always be someone using it... and many of the big shops made such a huge investment that it'll be hard for them to pull off... but while they're being slow, those of us on Nuke will be blazing past them and mashing out shots. It's nice!

But that's just my opinion. :)

AE is cool, and you'd have no problems picking up shake if you have a deeper understanding of what AE is doing. Really, I would say shake is easier, just make sure to read the manual!! A lot of us film dudes started on AE, not a bad program at all!

If I were to recommend a book - I'd go with Steve Wright's "Digital Compositing for Film and Video." It's nice and up to date, and that guy just oozes compositing science!

Vwaza
05-17-2007, 09:27 AM
...

Shake is dead - still does an ok job and worth learning, but eventually you're going to have to apply the knowledge to another program. Honestly, given the history of software like Rayz, Cineon, Illusion, all of those - I give it less than a year before expiring. Just like the rest, there will always be someone using it... and many of the big shops made such a huge investment that it'll be hard for them to pull off... but while they're being slow, those of us on Nuke will be blazing past them and mashing out shots. It's nice!...


I am afraid jbills might have "some" point here. In 2005, Shake 3.5 was $2,999. Now Shake 4.1 is $499? Where is the program heading to? I hope Apple doesn't kill it. At least they should add it into Final Cut Studio bundle.

beaker
05-17-2007, 10:18 AM
I am afraid jbills might have "some" point here. In 2005, Shake 3.5 was $2,999. Now Shake 4.1 is $499? Where is the program heading to? I hope Apple doesn't kill it. At least they should add it into Final Cut Studio bundle.Your a little behind in the times. They EOL shake last summer in order to work on a rewrite of the software.

adisan
05-17-2007, 10:21 AM
apple killed shake last year! that's why they droped the price
they are working on the next gen of compositing application!

osxrules
05-17-2007, 10:46 PM
apple killed shake last year! that's why they droped the price
they are working on the next gen of compositing application!

I really hope they don't mess it up. It certainly needs an overhaul because I find it sluggish compared to other compositing software; not entirely stable either, crashing for fileIns that aren't found and simple undos is a bit stupid. I sometimes wonder if it's worth getting so involved with Shake now.

I like Shake for the nodes though. I tried After Effects and although the interactivity is snappier, the rendering faster, no rendering bugs like displaying Pixlet wrong and there are much more plugins, the layer based editing is difficult to manage when you have a lot of elements to work with.

The expressions in Shake are great too as well as having an open developer kit. I don't have to pay Adobe some developer license to write plugins.

I like the ascii scripts as well. Great for project recovery and editing unlike AE's binaries.

Some have suggested that Shake will be bolted on top of Motion. I don't like this idea much at all because I didn't like Motion when I tried it out. It's too much like an AE light version. Too reliant on the GPU also, which is silly when Apple keep shipping sub-par GPU options.

It's minor but I hate the name Phenomenon too and I hope it's just a codename. Shake is one of the coolest names for an app that I've heard.

For all the Linux Shake users, this will be the absolute end too, no way will Apple port the codebase of Motion across.

I'm actually a little scared. Shake is one of the few apps that I truly love and it might be destroyed. On the other hand, it may turn into a phenomenal piece of software if it ends up with the current flexibility of Shake but the features of a good motion graphics package like particle support etc. To be honest, if they merge it in with Final Cut but retain the nodal workspace, I'd probably be happy because it would save doing all the cutting and non-linear audio editing externally. This way they could leave GPU effects to Motion.

I'm getting a bit impatient too. I don't like the decision to leave it two years while people have to get work done with a buggy, sluggish, unstable version. They could have at least fixed Shake first.

BadG3r
06-05-2007, 11:09 PM
I really hope they don't mess it up. It certainly needs an overhaul because I find it sluggish compared to other compositing software; not entirely stable either, crashing for fileIns that aren't found and simple undos is a bit stupid. I sometimes wonder if it's worth getting so involved with Shake now.

Shake was written for another os than mac, basiclly. so some of the probs occured through that. don't think that they will mess up, cause the father himself (Ron Brinkman) is giving birth to the child (why do I talk like that.. think it was the buritto..)

Plus... shake is integrated in the pipeline. and by now you can buy 10licenses instead 1(=one) fusion or nuke license. take that into consideration and as long as you don't need fancy stuff like particles shake will survive till 'phenom' or whatever the name will be arrives. and then everybody needs 8-core and another 5k$ for the app.

but who am I to predict...

beaker
06-06-2007, 01:01 AM
Shake was written for another os than mac, basiclly. so some of the probs occured through that. don't think that they will mess up, cause the father himself (Ron Brinkman) is giving birth to the child (why do I talk like that.. think it was the buritto..)You still have the same issues on linux, so you can't blame them on the OS. BTW Ron isn't working at Apple anymore. He left a couple months ago to go work as a consultant on Nuke at The Foundry.

osxrules
06-06-2007, 07:25 PM
BTW Ron isn't working at Apple anymore. He left a couple months ago to go work as a consultant on Nuke at The Foundry.

Uh oh. That could mean one of two things though. Either he feels Nuke needs more work and that Shake is in good hands (I anticipate laughter) or that Shake is going wrong and he's putting his input into developing what he sees as having a better future. Since Shake's successor will be Mac only and therefore only reaching an Apple audience, maybe he feels that the cross-platform Nuke has more to offer compositors.

http://www.dmnforums.com/cgi-bin/viewarticle.fcgi?id=140615

I found this article quite interesting.

http://blog.flowseeker.com/?p=19

In a way I'm glad that The Foundry have Nuke because unlike an OS vendor, they shouldn't be biased against any particular system. Although I personally prefer OS X (in case you hadn't guessed), I don't like seeing people who use other systems being deprived of good software in the same way I don't like to be.

As for the low price of Shake, for some it will be a factor but if at the end of the day the product isn't as stable as the competition and the development future is uncertain, companies could just migrate gradually at first until a point is reached where a 'Phenomenon' app will just be disregarded (unless it is great of course) as I'm sure Motion is in professional circles. I just don't see Apple coming up with something as flexible as Shake - they love to have their aqua interface in front of everything obscuring any complexity. As usual with Apple's policy on secrecy though, there'll likely be nothing but speculation until the day of the release.

Aneks
06-07-2007, 08:17 AM
Since we broke the news about Ron Brinkman at NAB on the fxguide podcast there has been a lot of murmuring but no real change in the landscape. Shake is an awesome app. Manhy people have invested heavily in it. Don't expect them to throw it all out.

Similarly Nuke is awesome. they have really kicked things into gear with the developement cycle. I expect great things from any release post 4.7 to be very interesting indeed. Its not just Ron who is over at the foundry. A few other familiar faces are there too.

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