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View Full Version : Lets discuss the topic for the next mini challenge....


RobertoOrtiz
04-07-2007, 04:05 PM
Ok I want to test the waters to see what you guys want to do...

I am leaning to do a challenge based
on Self Portraits with animation topology.


-R

quasiagent1
04-08-2007, 09:38 PM
Though I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "animation topology," I would be less inclined to enter this challange, even though I've been thinking of doing a self-portrait anyway. After having done some work on the current challenge, I would enjoy something that wouldn't be so incredibly precise, but would still require a great deal of detail to pull off (i.e. the Ray Harryhausen tribute). I had suggested a Marvel Comics-based challenge (in the suggestion thread), because it allows for organic and hard-surfaced modeling. It would also be slightly more open to interpretation.

I would be exstatic if we did something Marvel, but I would be much more inclined to join the next challenge if it was a least a slightly-open-to-interpretation challenge.

Stinger88
04-08-2007, 11:50 PM
Marvel sounds like a great idea. I would love to do that. If its going to be comic stuff though it should be all comic genres. ie: Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, etc.

I would probably still do a Marvel character though. Collosus to be exact.

robo3687
04-09-2007, 02:08 AM
i also wouldn't mind something along the lines of the comic challenge, maybe a new interpretation of a classic character to open up the imagination a bit more and to get variety in the entries.

While the idea of a self portrait is good, I don't think it should be so soon after the current challenge, which is also modeling heads etc....need some variety methinks.....

if anything i think we should have one that leans more towards hard body modeling, maybe something like the suggestion i made in the other thread

"Sci-fi Guts
The basic idea of this one is to take a piece of machinery or technology from the sci-fi world (ie. a lightsaber or blaster from Star Wars) and as well as modelling the exterior you have to model the interior workings of the piece as though it were to really exist and function."

that one is heavily hard body based, could have organics in it also, has the potential to be super hardcore detail wise, would encourage the imagination and concept building ideas for the internal workings.

Categories for voting would be the general best overall and best render etc etc that we have now but also have ones for best large scale model (vehicles etc) and best small scale model (weapons and such).

To make it more accessible I don't think there should be a list of preselected items, or maybe there should be a selected list of sci-fi movies/books that we can pick a piece of tech from....

I'm rambling again but I would really love to see this challenge come to be...lol

Doch
04-09-2007, 02:32 AM
if we talk about challange let's makes the next challenge - A Beauty Challenge
make the girl of your dream.
one of the must rule that a modeler should do once in his life . we can do some of
luis royo girls art or Boris art for example .
I'm sure it will be a Big challenge cus everyone will come :)

Vicktorious
04-09-2007, 07:21 AM
In my opinion, the main main concept of a challenge is to follow some guidelines while still having a decent amount of freedom. The Girl of your dreams idea, even though I agree that every modeler should do it at some point, would probably give too much freedom while making it extremely hard for the more in depth critiques as there's nothing to really reference. It's hard to see what's wrong with something when you can't get into the mindset of the creator, and that is one of the main purposes of these challenges right? Tune skills through C&C, though I may be mistaken on that.

I'd be more inclined to do the recreation of a comic icon idea. Everyone that has read a comic book has said to themselves, "oh man this guy is badass but he should have suchandsuch." Like Batman in a new suit or a new look for the hulk. Gives alot of freedom and also allows people to criticize if their ideas are working or not. Would also give the feel of modeling to an employers opinions and needs. Just my two cents anyway.

robo3687
04-09-2007, 08:26 AM
actually i am liking the comic book idea more and more the more people talk about it...lol

MrJames
04-09-2007, 11:37 AM
I posted in the other topic suggestion thread but seeing as this one is active I'll post again here.

Sports figure of the century sounds like a good idea. I was thinking modelling a creature or person based on a fable could be interesting too. Alice in Wonderland etc... although the problem with that is that its based on each participants personal preference of how they think the creature should look, so it might not be considered hardcore enough.

I remember someone suggested doing an animal in motion before, I think that could be a fantastic idea also, something I would love to do. Personally I prefer organic modelling subjects, but if it was a hard surface one you could have a sky scraper challenge, modeling a replica of one of the tallest buildings in the world? Possibly with some interior detail.

RobertoOrtiz
04-10-2007, 06:08 PM
I remember someone suggested doing an animal in motion before, I think that could be a fantastic idea also, something I would love to do .
I LOOOVE the idea of animals in Motion.
I think this is the way we will go.

-R

KrakenCMT
04-10-2007, 07:05 PM
Awesome idea! An animal in motion would definately be hardcore!

EnergyPulse
04-10-2007, 11:46 PM
By an animal in motion do you mean a shot of it on the move or an animation?

RobertoOrtiz
04-11-2007, 12:44 AM
By an animal in motion do you mean a shot of it on the move or an animation?

Wel the idea is to capture the animal in mid motion.

KrakenCMT
04-11-2007, 02:18 AM
The way I interpret it is that you would sculpt it as a still. The focus would be to pose the figure and model it to get the essense, weight and feel of whatever it is the animal is doing. If your concept is that your model is pushing something heavy, you need to convey the weight of the object it's pushing in the pose, in the muscles it's using, it the shifting of it's weight from one foot to the other, etc... That's why this would be a true hardcore challenge. Not only would you be modeling the animal, but also the motion. Love the idea!

Stinger88
04-11-2007, 11:26 AM
oooh. Yes animals in motion is a great idea. Heres an example of what I might do for that.

(obviously i'd make the camera angle a bit more interesting though)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/681/cheetahub9.png (http://imageshack.us/)

Vicktorious
04-11-2007, 01:30 PM
The cheetah is cool and all, but imo it has been over played in the past twenty years. I've been thinking of a classic fight scene between two animal enemies.
http://photos1.meetupstatic.com/photos/event/7/c/d/c/event_511964.jpeg

vs.

http://www.edachshund.com/images/badgerx.gif

maybe the dachshund dragging the badger out of its hole or something like that.

Edit: and it'll be just in time for the Zbrush 3 release (just looked at what it's going to be capable of and oh man I hope it doesnt get delayed,) Be a good chance to get acquainted with new software.

AndreKling
04-11-2007, 01:46 PM
Will we be restricted to todays animal kingdowm or dinossaurs, and extinct animals will be allowed aswell?

RobertoOrtiz
04-12-2007, 10:25 PM
Will we be restricted to todays animal kingdowm or dinossaurs, and extinct animals will be allowed aswell?
Dinos are fun as hell but they are another challenge (and trust me WE WILL do them).
For now we will stick to animals of the current Animal Kingdom.
We will do a list of about 25 to 50 animals the participants can pick.

And the diorama will make a comeback for this challenge. (but this time it will be unshaded)

Think about it...
A model of two pumas fighting in a mountain pass.
Or a White Shark Jumping towards a seal.
:)

-R

morphius-ms
04-13-2007, 03:32 AM
ok... i would love to do an animal challenge... in fact that was gonna be my next project after this one...


lol funny how great minds think alike... (sorry about the cliche)

MrJames
04-13-2007, 09:56 AM
I'm loving the fact that we are going for this, I'm sure there will be some great entries. Have you already got a list ready or would you like some suggestions for animals?

OvidiusTiberius
04-13-2007, 02:02 PM
Yes an animal captured in full motion i think it's an extraordinary idea!Some great works would came out from this !I think it should happen !:)

RobertoOrtiz
04-13-2007, 03:20 PM
Please post you animal selections.
I will compile the main list based on what is listed here.

-R

Seven
04-13-2007, 03:34 PM
gazelle, deer
cat - tiger, lion, panther, home pet
shark, whale

ask me to name an animal and the minds gone blank :)

visionmaster2
04-13-2007, 03:42 PM
Bradypus infuscatus :)

KrakenCMT
04-13-2007, 04:14 PM
Different types of agile monkees. Apes fighting something.
Jackrabbit
Kangaroo
Wolves
Roadrunner (Meep! Meep!)
Mongoose
Bull
Elephant
Praying Mantis
Spiders
Dogs (I was thinking of perhaps doing a grayhound myself)

I'll try to think of more...

Clanger
04-13-2007, 04:25 PM
Gorrilla
Horse
Hare

morphius-ms
04-13-2007, 04:53 PM
canines:
fox
wolf
dingo
house dog (many species in here)

felines:
house cat (many species in here)
tiger
puma (or cougar)
lion (male or female since they look different)
bob cat

birds:
eagle
hawk
owl
sparrow
robin
cardinal
(there is this black bird with blue shiny wings but I can't remember the name)
king fisher
pinguin
sea gull

fish:
catfish
blue gill
salmon

lobsters
crabs
shrimp

sharks:
nursing shark
hammerhead
great white
dog fish

deer
elk
moose

grizzly bear
black bear
teddy bear (lol j/k)
koala bear
panda bear
polar bear

[EDIT] oops forgot a few more

insects:
ants
termites
wasps
bees
killer bees
roaches (many different ones)
beetles (many different ones)
walking stick
preying mantis
centipede
milipede
moth
butterfly(and caterpillar)
dragon fly

arachnids:
spiders
scorpions

frogs
tree frog
bull frog
(any kinds can't think of many right now)

misc
kangaroo
otter
sea lion
platypus
sloth
octopus
squid

reptiles
cobra
rattler
diamond head
boa
anaconda
kamono (spelling) dragon
geko

just to name a few lol...:D

Stinger88
04-13-2007, 05:20 PM
Im just gonna put my favourite animals from the different types of Sealife, Mammals and Birds.
If theres any there you like please include them.

Sealife

Killer Whales
Great White Shark
Tiger Shark
Sea Otter
Deep sea Angler Fish
Seals (all types, inc walrus)
Sperm Whale
Giant Squid

(I'd love to do a battle scene between a Sperm Whale and Giant Squid)

Freewater

Salmon
Piranha
Pike

Mammals

Otters
Kodiak Bear
Grizzly Bear
Tazmanian Devil
Mountain Leopard
Black Panther
Gorrillas
Wolves
Rhinosaurus
Mongoose

Reptiles

Komodo Dragon
Iguana
King Cobra
Anaconda
Aligators and Crocs

Birds

Red Kite
Golden Eagle
Osprey
Kingfisher

Insects

Stag Beetle
Scarab
Dragon Flies
Ants


I'll stop there. I could go on and on and on but theres a few of the animals I'd like to see in the list. Mainly predators but you've got to admit they are a lot cooler.

MrJames
04-14-2007, 11:53 AM
Most insects won't translate to this challenge paritcuarly well. A hare for instance is quite dynamic when its running, but an ant or mantis's body is so rigid that whether its stationary or running/attacking its really the same model. I think the kind of animals that would work best are ones with musclature that you can really see when they are strained, animals that are generally quite dynamic.

RobertoOrtiz
04-16-2007, 03:53 PM
Keep em coming....

Another area we need idea is the concent of "confrontations".

the idea is to have two animals fighting each other on a scene.
No gore of course...

And man those seals got a raw deal



Orca going for a seal (clip) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynu-FqYrd1g&mode=related&search)
A White Shark beaching to go for a seal (clip) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yqGmx73UJ0)
North American Mountain Lion, vs a Grizzly Bear (clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7MuFDVEUro))
Buck deer fighting (clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Steezj61Dsk))

quasiagent1
04-16-2007, 06:35 PM
Would "confrontations" extend to things like prey v. predator? In other words, would an alligator snapping at a wildebeest or a lion chasing gazelle be acceptable?

RobertoOrtiz
04-16-2007, 06:38 PM
Would "confrontations" extend to things like prey v. predator? In other words, would an alligator snapping at a wildebeest or a lion chasing gazelle be acceptable?

That sounds cool. Yes we can do prey v. predator. :)

robo3687
04-17-2007, 08:33 AM
one of my concerns i have about these challenges is that the level of interest severely drops from about the middle to the end of the challenge, on the part of both participants and the public. My opinion is that this time is when we the participants need the most input from outside the challenge to our models as we refine them towards the final product. I think that this in turn contributes to the decline in participant involvement and entry completion by the end of the challenge.

People may start something but when they don't get alot of feedback they may think its not good enough and give up. Which leads to a low percentage of completed entries compared to started entries.

Now I don't know if there's some way of promoting this challenge (and maybe the game art, and FX wars ones too) permanently on the front page....maybe a slimline banner or something...it just seems like everyone forgets about the challenge and it is only those of us who are competing who contribute to each others posts....and even thats slowing down alot.

I just know that it'd be a much more encouraging process for all of us if we could get more input from the many talented artists not competing in the challenge.

----

also with the animal challenge I quite like the idea of the confrontation concept.....can't believe I'm going to say this but I'll probably be in for this challenge as well....

roberto are we allowed to start planning now? no modelling, just sketching, finding refs....things like that....

RobertoOrtiz
04-17-2007, 04:58 PM
also with the animal challenge I quite like the idea of the confrontation concept.....can't believe I'm going to say this but I'll probably be in for this challenge as well....

roberto are we allowed to start planning now? no modelling, just sketching, finding refs....things like that....
Planning is ok. And the gathering of rerefence. But NO modeling.
Ill post soon a preliminary list of the animals.

-R

TKMan
05-08-2007, 11:49 AM
What about a great white/orca cought in the moment he is biting a seal? would that be ok, or is this a too cruel scene?

TKMan
05-08-2007, 02:08 PM
just got an idea concerning the problem of the texturing (and hair!) in the modeling contest: Hair and texturing\shading is not forbidden, but you may not show any of those pictures in the WIP or final work thread.
For the voting of best overall entry should be an extra thread to post the pictures with hair and textures. This way you can get some kind of satisfaction from the hard extra work you put in these parts, but this eye candy does not so easily affect the opinions on the modeling catagories.
there could also be a best overall and best modeling winner.

Diabolos
05-08-2007, 02:19 PM
I also had an idea for a possible challenge in the future about animals, but what if we were to do:

The Island of Dr Moreau :surprised

.....and mix up humans and animals into some wild creations?


D,


**EDIT** - this is like that show on Discovery channel where the make two unlikely animals go at it.

KrakenCMT
05-08-2007, 07:29 PM
After reading some comments about the texturing issue from the voting thread, here's my thoughts.... and this is just an observation, opinion, and suggestion.

Part of the appeal of this challenge for me was that the focus was on modeling. Texturing skills weren't expected or even required for a good entry. Adding a texturing category makes it no longer just a modeling challenge, especially when adding the best overall category. Because then people will expect a good textured rendering to deserve to win best overall. Then it becomes just your average 3d challenge then. In a hardcore modeling challenge, you should be challenging and pushing your modeling skills and not worrying about getting your sss shader right.

OR, the time that is used for texturing could be used for voting. Challenges could be quicker. Less time for one to become disinterested in their own entry. I think keeping the focus on modeling will streamline the whole challenge and make it more enjoyable for everyone. Plus it will push those who enter to create more detailed and fantastic models.

So considering all that, I think texturing should be minimal in these challenges. Bump/normal mapping details are OK, because they enhance the modeling characteristics. IF the artist wants to texture their model during the challenge, that's fine, but on the voting page, my suggestion would be that only the untextured beauty renders, untextured turntable movie(if applicable), and orthos should be posted.

Diabolos
05-08-2007, 07:42 PM
This is true, and technically the modeller could take the model furthur after the contest - if one wanted to finish their model for a gallery piece or something. No model goes to waste.


D,

robo3687
05-09-2007, 02:49 AM
okay roberto mentioned something in the voting thread about the next challenge possibly being a one week star wars tribute......personally I would love to be a part of something like that and the fact it only runs for a week is good as well...

morphius-ms
05-09-2007, 04:46 AM
After reading some comments about the texturing issue from the voting thread, here's my thoughts.... and this is just an observation, opinion, and suggestion.

Part of the appeal of this challenge for me was that the focus was on modeling. Texturing skills weren't expected or even required for a good entry. Adding a texturing category makes it no longer just a modeling challenge, especially when adding the best overall category. Because then people will expect a good textured rendering to deserve to win best overall. Then it becomes just your average 3d challenge then. In a hardcore modeling challenge, you should be challenging and pushing your modeling skills and not worrying about getting your sss shader right.

OR, the time that is used for texturing could be used for voting. Challenges could be quicker. Less time for one to become disinterested in their own entry. I think keeping the focus on modeling will streamline the whole challenge and make it more enjoyable for everyone. Plus it will push those who enter to create more detailed and fantastic models.

So considering all that, I think texturing should be minimal in these challenges. Bump/normal mapping details are OK, because they enhance the modeling characteristics. IF the artist wants to texture their model during the challenge, that's fine, but on the voting page, my suggestion would be that only the untextured beauty renders, untextured turntable movie(if applicable), and orthos should be posted.

That is true I never even thought about it that way. I guess that new comers who see the voting criteria, would include texturing in the over all, therefore taking away from the modeling

and you're right also the modeler could texture their model AFTER the challenge anyway for a gallery piece.

I retract my previous suggestion and vote for KrakenCMT's. namely this...


So considering all that, I think texturing should be minimal in these challenges. Bump/normal mapping details are OK, because they enhance the modeling characteristics. IF the artist wants to texture their model during the challenge, that's fine, but on the voting page, my suggestion would be that only the untextured beauty renders, untextured turntable movie(if applicable), and orthos should be posted.

TKMan
05-09-2007, 06:30 AM
well, you actually are right, the texturing part makes it no exclusive modeling challenge anymore. My earlier proposal of having an extra category for this wouldn't eliminate the problem. So I agree on forbidding any texturing except bump\normal\displacement.

The proposal of shorter deadlines would is disadvantageous, cause some people (including me) do not have much time to spent on this cool contest, so if you have to work and just got nights and weekends to spent, a shorter deadline won't improve the entry!

plus you can put in a lot more detail if you don't have to worry about leaving time for texturing and shading.

misu
05-09-2007, 07:38 AM
I saw that many people here started a discussion about using the textures in this modeling challenge. If in the rules of the contest would be specified that we are not alowed to show any texture then please belive me that i would not post any render with textures (and anyway , during the challenge nobody told me that this is not allowed ) . Other than that if you guyz want that then i agree to remove the model from voting thread to avoid any other unnecessary discussion about this problem :) .

KrakenCMT
05-09-2007, 01:45 PM
I saw that many people here started a discussion about using the textures in this modeling challenge. If in the rules of the contest would be specified that we are not alowed to show any texture then please belive me that i would not post any render with textures (and anyway , during the challenge nobody told me that this is not allowed ) . Other than that if you guyz want that then i agree to remove the model from voting thread to avoid any other unnecessary discussion about this problem :) .


You don't need to take it down, Mihai. It's all good! You didn't do anything wrong. The discussion is about how to avoid the issue in future challenges. There are plenty of challenges to come to add the rule to! (if that happens, cuz it is ultimately up to Roberto).

morphius-ms
05-09-2007, 04:28 PM
Mihai nobody is asking to take your incredible model down... this arguement has been in this challenge for a long time (first time I saw it was the 30 models in 30 days challenge)... since then the arguement has come up either every time or almost every time there is a voting thread... keep it up there... (I can only speak for myself in this statement) but this is just a suggestion for future challenges to keep the focus on modeling and not texturing as well.

GQ1
05-09-2007, 10:50 PM
here is my list,

Armadillo

Emu

Ostrich

Flying fox

Ape

Monkey

Baboon

Orangutans

Chimpanzee

Elephant

Rhinoceros

Leopard

Camel

Sphynx (Hairless cat)

Wild Bore

Tiger

Zebra

Water buffalo

king Cobra

kangaroo

carnageRPM
05-10-2007, 03:48 PM
what if i put a donkey driving a car? that would be an animal in motion no?

RobertoOrtiz
05-10-2007, 05:56 PM
what if i put a donkey driving a car? that would be an animal in motion no?
LOL!
God I neede that laugh!

Thanks

-R

Firerbert
05-10-2007, 08:04 PM
What's the start date for this challenge????

RobertoOrtiz
05-11-2007, 08:14 PM
Soon,

I might do the Star Wars tribute first...(after all it is the 30th anniversary)

-R

Star-Scream
05-11-2007, 08:33 PM
Hey yeah Star Wars rocks :thumbsup: :bounce:

AndreKling
05-11-2007, 09:59 PM
I think the star wars could be a cgsociety challenge. Star wars has influenced alot of ppl to get involved on cgi and i think restrict it just to our litle corner of this amazing forum is too bad... besides we hv being arguing alot about shading or not our models, and a SW tribute should be more about image totally completed and not just modelling. After all its the 30th aniversary to quote robertos :)
Cant wait to start the next comp, be it stra wars or any other subject.
Andre

Firerbert
05-12-2007, 01:46 PM
I've read all this noise from everybody arguing about shading and finished models, etc. etc. I say get over it. In true production environments, you will be faced with the same challenges presented on this forum. That's not a maybe. You WILL find your self in a tight spot one day. Setup of shaders and texturing your model should be part of modeling. Period, hands down. If you went out and bought a model kit of a highly detailed car, would it be finished after you put it all together or after you painted it and decaled it? I know that given this is supposed to be a Hardcore Modeling forum, the focus is modeling. Some of the beauty of modeling is how much you can get away with in your textures to bring out your model, especially with normal mapping. Thanks to programs like ZB and MB, we can now get all that crazy detail we always dreamed of. You don't take a client a half finished product. That's just being lazy. If you can't raise the bar on yourself, then don't bother stepping up to try. The simple fact that you should texture and shade your models will push your modeling skills even further because you have less time to work. Why anyone would complain about getting better at what they do is beyond me. Sure, a lot of us work other jobs and do this on the side on nights and weekends. I'm in the same boat. I work 12 - 14 hour days and I still find time for this stuff. Why? Because I love it. So all of you "modelers" out there that are complaining about doing shaders and textures and some dynamics can take some advice from Dave Chapelle and "shut the f#!k up. shut - the - f#!k - up!" A studio would much rather hire someone that can cover the realm of setting up a model for presentation or even sometimes animation, than someone who can just model something. Sometimes a studio might see you have better skills in shader setup, lighting setup, or even dynamics, and give you a job for that instead of modeling. So why not spread your wings?

Firerbert
05-12-2007, 01:46 PM
Oh, and Star Wars would be wicked cool.

fx81
05-12-2007, 02:12 PM
I've read all this noise from everybody arguing about shading and finished models, etc. etc. I say get over it. In true production environments, you will be faced with the same challenges presented on this forum. That's not a maybe. You WILL find your self in a tight spot one day. Setup of shaders and texturing your model should be part of modeling. Period, hands down. If you went out and bought a model kit of a highly detailed car, would it be finished after you put it all together or after you painted it and decaled it? I know that given this is supposed to be a Hardcore Modeling forum, the focus is modeling. Some of the beauty of modeling is how much you can get away with in your textures to bring out your model, especially with normal mapping. Thanks to programs like ZB and MB, we can now get all that crazy detail we always dreamed of. You don't take a client a half finished product. That's just being lazy. If you can't raise the bar on yourself, then don't bother stepping up to try. The simple fact that you should texture and shade your models will push your modeling skills even further because you have less time to work. Why anyone would complain about getting better at what they do is beyond me. Sure, a lot of us work other jobs and do this on the side on nights and weekends. I'm in the same boat. I work 12 - 14 hour days and I still find time for this stuff. Why? Because I love it. So all of you "modelers" out there that are complaining about doing shaders and textures and some dynamics can take some advice from Dave Chapelle and "shut the f#!k up. shut - the - f#!k - up!" A studio would much rather higher someone that can cover the realm of setting up a model for presentation or even sometimes animation, than someone who can just model something. Sometimes a studio might see you have better skills in shader setup, lighting setup, or even dynamics, and give you a job for that instead of modeling. So why not spread your wings?


lol, may be we should change the name of the forum to "Hardcore Whatever Forum":scream:

btw, i do mostly texturing at work, but i like modeling more. so when i see a forum called Hardcore Modeling then i expect to do modeling and modeling only, nothing else.

Firerbert
05-12-2007, 02:26 PM
Yeah it should be the hardcore whatever forum. Sorry for my stupid outburst. I just don't like people complaining about stuff that is good to be skilled at. I pretty much just got bent because people were saying that shaded and textured models shouldn't be considered for final entry. If it's to be just modeling, it should be restricted. I do understand why it isn't. To deny people from taking the model further would be wrong, but if other people think it's unfair for judging, then it should be restricted. I dunno. :shrug:

RobertoOrtiz
05-12-2007, 02:46 PM
Ok guys, I did promise that the challenge "Animals in Motion" will be un-shaded.
And it will be. The rules for the challenges are very liquid, and they will vary challenge from challenge.

IF we do the Stars Wars A Star Wars mini- mini-challenge (2weeks tops) it might be along the lines of the the Heroes and Villains classic scene dioramas (unshaded).
-R

Firerbert
05-12-2007, 02:50 PM
It makes the most sense for the Animals in motion to be unshaded. A lot would be lost with fur or textures. :)
The heroes and villains would be a good one.

morphius-ms
05-12-2007, 06:36 PM
ok Josh (Firerbert) I understand what you are saying that in the industry you would be more valuable if you can texture and model... instead of just model... that is true...

This forum was to focus on modeling (atleast that's what I believe this forum was made for) so what we are suggesting isn't for the modelers that post in this forum to stop at just modeling, after all it is their model, they can finish it or whatever... we are just saying that for this challenge it should be focused in modeling and not add textures when they post their final result...

I understand how you feel... but what we are suggesting is spending time on normal maps, and modeling, and what not... and not focusing on whether the fur looks right, or the SSS shader looks right, or what ever looks right... just the model itself...

you are also right in the fact that when it is doing likenesses texturing plays a big part in it... for this last challenge we weren't suggesting that the textured models be taken down we were just saying that the texturing made it a little hard to vote BECAUSE the focus is supposed to be on modeling.... there were alot of great models in this challenge... I am glad to be apart of it....

and IMHO the Maximus (misu's) if it were to be posted with the displacement, normal, and bump maps as well... (basically just desaturated) it would look just as great...

now I can really only speak for myself (even though I said we alot) but I understand where you are coming from because in the 30 models in 30 days challenge I made these arguements to myself when posting my first opinion.

Firerbert
05-12-2007, 06:41 PM
I hear ya.
:thumbsup:
Didn't have to whip out the first name though. Damn, man.

jamesylvester
05-12-2007, 07:46 PM
a star wars challange would be awesome, i think i would rather do that than the animal thing

Vicktorious
05-12-2007, 09:18 PM
Idea for the animals in motion idea. Maybe you could consider only using animals that appear bald on a majority of the body (elephant, rhino, etc. . . ) or animals with such short hair that you can still clearly see body deformations in muscle (Feline animals, most rodents, some Canines etc. . . ). As Robert said in the insect example the idea behind the in motion contest would be to see the deformations in the motion. Alot of mammals will get cut out in the process, but You're still left with all reptiles, Fish and underwater mammals. I just feel a modelling challenge should try to cut out ways to "hide" undeveloped areas behind fur and clothing.

As for Star Wars, if you want to go for a tribute to 30th anniversary, maybe limit the scenes to Episodes III, IV, and V, with a theme to create the artists perception of what the villians or hero's should have looked like, not dependant on the actors appearance (we just had an actor based accuracy challenge, so lets not be repetative. However since the books that were written never really became popular, the actors have become part of our perception of Star Wars, so maybe a challenge on weaponry or vehicles or even a challenge on creating the best origional idea on a recreation on the Death Star. Myself, I'd love to build a Hanger with an Armoury hall in the foreground filled with new Light Sabres, Laser Guns and Armour, with Star Fighters in the background, maybe with one just beyond the hall for a close up look on it.

RobertoOrtiz
05-12-2007, 11:48 PM
Well the star was one will be REALLY SHORT. 2 weeks tops.

We would do the animal one after it.
-R

Rod Seffen
05-13-2007, 10:09 AM
I'm still not clear on exactly what the purpose of this forum is.
Maybe Roberto could lay it out in black and white for us.
My understanding is a pure modeling challenge to see who can model something better than the next guy.
The first challenge, David, summed it up well.
THe problem with what Vicktorious suggested a few posts ago, is that it's taking it almost completely into the realms of the concept artist rather than the modeler.
What is the definition of a good modeler?
Someone who can model a given object, whether it be concept art or a real life object/animal?
Or someone who can come up with his own leet and unique concepts and model them?
I see concepting as a different discipline from modeling, and certainly, within the industry, they are generally separate jobs, though obviously one person can do both.
The problem with a concept challenge, is that all the difficulty, and therefore winner, lies in the concepting part, not the modeling part.
There's a difference between interpreting a subject in your own unique away for a model, and coming up with a unique concept from scratch, I think that's taking it too far from a pure modeling challenge.

RobertoOrtiz
05-13-2007, 02:41 PM
In a nutshell oDDity has pointed out what the core spirit of the forum is:
"My understanding is a pure modeling challenge to see who can model something better than the next guy."

That is it plain and simple.


But the thing is that I don't want the fun to be taken out of the equation. That is why there are NO CORE rules for the forum. The rules vary challenge to challenge. That way the forum is allowed the flexibility to adapt and grow to the needs of its members. (And to see what those needs are I publish threads like this one)

This means that some challenges will be un-textured (like Animals in Motion) others will be.

Monstermaker (A member whose opinion I respect a lot ) said it best on the voting thread:

" When modeling something like a likeness I feel that texturing is very important in order to achieve the likeness. The color of the eyes , the hair, the value of the eyebrows next to the value of the skin all help to make the model look more like the person, if done correctly."

fx81
05-13-2007, 03:14 PM
In a nutshell oDDity has pointed out what the core spirit of the forum is:
"My understanding is a pure modeling challenge to see who can model something better than the next guy."

That is it plain and simple.


But the thing is that I don't want the fun to be taken out of the equation. That is why there are NO CORE rules for the forum. The rules vary challenge to challenge. That way the forum is allowed the flexibility to adapt and grow to the needs of its members. (And to see what those needs are I publish threads like this one)

This means that some challenges will be un-textured (like Animals in Motion) others will be.

Monstermaker (A member whose opinion I respect a lot ) said it best on the voting thread:

" When modeling something like a likeness I feel that texturing is very important in order to achieve the likeness. The color of the eyes , the hair, the value of the eyebrows next to the value of the skin all help to make the model look more like the person, if done correctly."

the easiest fix to all these problems is change the forum name.

i would suggest that you take out the term "Hardcore" from the forum. I am not trying to be sarcastic. If you just name the forum "Modeling/Texturing Mini-Challenge" then it would fit the challenges perfectly and would be an honest title.

Naming it hardcore modeling is just false in this case. if you want to be flexible, then be flexible with the name of the forum as well. its really an easy fix, just change the name of the forum. i dont see the harm in that.

as for the fun factor; you named the forum hardcore modeling forum and then you have challenges that are more for generalists than specialists like modelers. so in a sense you are taking the fun out for hardcore modelers and giving it to generalists.

i completely agree with Mr. Baker. but texturing and color of eyes is not all, you also need to do good skin shading, lighting, hair setup, etc. so this pretty much becomes hardcore whatever.

however, if you look at any traditional portrait sculpture/bust made after a real person you will most likely not find many that has the paint on it. the core idea of making a good sculpture is getting the form right, not the colors, imo. this would be hardcore modeling.

Rod Seffen
05-13-2007, 03:58 PM
Well it did start out as a hardcore modeling challenge. David is a damn difficult piece, I had a go at it again recently in mudbox, and I'm still not entirely happy with the result.
I can't agree with Rick Baker about the textures.
The very definition of a hardcore modeling challenge for me, is to be able to model something that looks great and accurate just as a grey model with basic open GL lighting.
Textures and skin shading may be important for total realism in a human head, but this forum isn't about total CG realism, its about modeling.
I say let's keep this sub-forum focused and distinct.

AndreKling
05-13-2007, 04:24 PM
ts funny that you guys complain so much about be it purely hardcore modelling, if it was the case, we should all post our models in some vrml or in any 3d format so the judges could spin around the model, if you are taking photography ( render stills ) as part of the judgment criteria ( beauty shot ) you will never hv a pure modelling challenge.
Not to mention lighting... perhaps in the future we should hv some rules regarding lighting steup, ( maybe the same light for every model ), but i honetly cant see how we will ever hv a pure 100% just modelling challenge.

OvidiusTiberius
05-13-2007, 05:04 PM
Well it did start out as a hardcore modeling challenge. David is a damn difficult piece, I had a go at it again recently in mudbox, and I'm still not entirely happy with the result.
I can't agree with Rick Baker about the textures.
The very definition of a hardcore modeling challenge for me, is to be able to model something that looks great and accurate just as a grey model with basic open GL lighting.
Textures and skin shading may be important for total realism in a human head, but this forum isn't about total CG realism, its about modeling.
I say let's keep this sub-forum focused and distinct.

I totally agree with this opinion.When i entered in this challenge i did it becouse the provocation was to make cg sculpting(cg objects like an real peace of sculpted art),and not to do still images with a lot of effects and other stuff.I think the best way to see the modelling level of an artist is to just make an turntable rendering ,just like you rotate yourself in a museum and admire a sculpting masterpeace,and all this without texturing and shading and hair.If want to do all the stuff we absolutely need more time (some of us have jobs and the free time is limited).Anyway the challenge is great!:bounce:if the next Challenge will be an full motion animal....then wooooau men ,the posibilities are infinite!

one little think......if the administrator of this challenge want that the quality of the peaces exposed on this site to be high i think the time should be higher too(Leonardo and Michelangelo need a lot of time to do great wark why do we need less?):scream::)

KrakenCMT
05-13-2007, 05:35 PM
This is my first CGTalk modeling challenge so I wasn't too aware of the texturing arguement until the voting thread for this round popped up. The appeal of the challenge for me was the emphasis on modeling.

But many others seem to want to include texturing in the challenge. The forum is divided on the issue. One side wants to keep it focused on modeling in a fashion like creating a clay or marble figure, the other wants to generalize it more as an overall 3d challenge with full texturing. But either way, it's just a challenge and it's supposed to be fun. I wouldn't be opposed to mixing it up now and then or even every other challenge or so.

If the forum is evolving into that, that's fine by me. The challenge is supposed to be more "fun" than "hardcore". But I will more likely enter the non textured challenges.

AndreKling
05-13-2007, 05:59 PM
It would be great if we could hv some sort of offical judge team, perhaps some modellers that could not only give the opinion to the best entries, but also critiques on the work, i know that critiques should come from the wip thread and i agree with that, but i think that receive critiques in the final piece itself is extremly important and not only during the wip stage.
this is a great contest, and it helped me alot in the last few months, but i think the voting process could be reworked some how. It would be great if roberto could setup some kind of information device like rebecka has in her anatomy thread, that when a new comp goes live you receive an email to let you know. I have seen alot of ppl saying that they missed alot of time for not being aware of the comp ( not only in this last one ).

monstermaker
05-13-2007, 06:18 PM
I don't totally disagree with Oddity. He has a very valid point it is called the hard core modeling challenge. For that matter I think every one has valid points.
I personally am not a big fan of hard and fast rules for some thing like this which can vary so much from challenge to challenge.
To me the whole point of this is to have fun and learn while doing it.
I find the problem with strict rules on something like this is where to draw the line. I totally understand those who think texturing should not be a part of this challenge. I think AndreKing has a really good point about the lighting and rendering ,again where do you draw the line.
Do you change the name of the challenge as marshru suggested .I don't know. I would just hate to see the fun taken out of this by loading it down with so many rules that no one wants to participate.
Frankly I am not a big fan of contests anyways.
I do like to see what people do on these challenges .To see how their work progresses from one stage to the next, to see different takes on the subject matter. Even though I voted on this last challenge I found it very difficult to say that one work was better than the next. To say that one person is a winner and the other is not, is tough. We all like different things we all see things differently.
Maybe the answer is not to have winners. How about a challenge that is just about making stuff and having fun doing it and seeing what others did doing the same.
It could be called the Hardcore making stuff and having fun while learning but you aren't going to win or lose challenge with very few rules but some necessary guidelines challenge type thing.

visionmaster2
05-13-2007, 07:34 PM
monstermaker said "Maybe the answer is not to have winners. How about a challenge that is just about making stuff and having fun doing it and seeing what others did doing the same. "

That is a very good idea, but we need some feedback about what we done.
it will be importand to keep something like a vote, but with critics about what is done.

Stinger88
05-14-2007, 12:07 AM
Heres my 2 cents....

I'll be texturing my models regardless. If the challenge states that I need to enter untextured models then so be it. I need to do as much texturing as possible to get to grips with it.

I decided to start doing these challenges to improve my skills and bulk out my portfolio in the process. If an award comes along (doubtul with the talent here) then thats a bonus. I'm going to be creating my model to how I want them to look for my portfolio. Then secondly I'll adjust them to whatever standard the challenge rules stipulate so that I can enter them into the comp. (hence the reason my Kurgan model focused alot on the accessories of the bust rather than the kurgan himself)

I would like to add that I would still like to see textured versions of peoples models if they have textured them. I'm not sure of how much work it would be for Admin but, How hard can it be to add a sub-catagory award for textured models if people have done them? That award could even be place in a totally different voting thread, so that people visiting the HMC voting thread aren't confused by the mixture of textured and un textured models. This thread could have a limit of maybe 2 pictures per entry 800x600, and the entries HAVE to have entered into the untexured main hardcore modeling challenge to be valid.

anyway. thats all i have to say on the matter. I'll be entering regardless of the rules (if I have time, Final degree show in 5 weeks...YIKES!!)

TKMan
05-14-2007, 07:22 AM
I like the idea of "standard setting" - rules. maybe a base scene with lights and a clay/stone/whatever shader, that everyone has to use for showing his model in the threads. this way all have tha same base look and the model itself shows the skill of the creator.

About the proposed more time: Isn't it part of this challenge to do a big amount of work in a a very short time (the "hardcore" - part of it)?

jojo1975
05-14-2007, 07:43 AM
monster maker has say a true thing
Look at the lighting competition. No official winners (even if looking at the gallery you can easily say which are the best "rerderers) but a wonderful space to learn togheter and share tips. so also a non competitive challenge can work
if we want a fair competition (I insist and wrote it a lot of times) we should cleary state in how the rendering should be done and focus ONLY on modelling.
A beauty render with good textures, with good light, good displacement maps can be really better, mediocre modelled can be better than a wonderful model ugly rendered and this seriously make the competition (unfair)
For "All in one challenge" we have already the CGtalk challenge. I guess that everyone should post the MODEL (clay rendered), ve vote for the MODEL , and after the competition is finished everyone is free to post a textured, final, with bells and whistles .. etc. etc. for his / portofolio and/or a showcase gallery for the competition
That's my two cents ;)

Rod Seffen
05-14-2007, 09:37 AM
I'm all for a relaxed general CG area.
However, this particular individual sub-forum was created specifically to deal with hardcore modeling challenges, and I think it's a very good idea (Yes, I am biased since I'm a modeler)
Why not start up another sub-forum below this one which is the relaxed, no rules, general CG hangout with friendly contests that some people want, and keep this one focused on the spirit of it's original intent.

Diabolos
05-15-2007, 09:05 AM
I also would like to mention, that I did not finish my actor model, as I was not able to model the likeness (we ourselves are our own critics/enemies). I could have slapped a texture I made from screenshots on the head and it would have "looked" like Nigel Terry, but the clay would have looked like any other average male - the deciding factor in the whole challenge which quickly showed me that I am not up to par yet on "that" kind of modeling and showed me that I need to practice - so in my free time I am going to try it again and again until I can model someones likeness.

Turx' Bruce Willis is an excellent example - that is hands down Bruce Willis standing there in the clay render IMO much stronger than the textured version. So on that note I am looking forward to modeling something from the animal kingdom that is not covered up with an excellent expensive fur plug-in, as once again - I have not tried that yet. I just purchased MODO to compliment MAYA with, so I am looking forward to working on some anatomy and muscle structure. I'm not sure if I will be able to participate in the mini mini Star wars challenge, but am still curious on the criteria....as the SW world has a lot to offer.........

At any rate, I agree that this friendly and fun contest should stick to it's title as "Hardcore Modeling" and I am totally fine with only a clay render, as I will personally texture and final render what ever I make at a later time after the contest.

D,

w_capozzi
05-15-2007, 09:48 AM
I like the idea that the modeling challenge should be modeling only using a clay or sculpey shader and maybe a uniform light set up. The challenge could go on from there to a separate challenge of texturing and final renderings. It could even go further to other challenges of lighting, rigging, animating, and compositing into realistic scenes. Anyone could participate to any level they want.
I also like the idea that maybe there shouldn't be hard judging of a winner, rather instead how about everyone offer critiques and ask questions on how a particular model was built. The top models will get the most questions and it will turn into a set of useful learning material in the end.

-Bill C.

TKMan
05-15-2007, 10:41 AM
well, I doubt the theory with best model=most questions, cause a good model does not neccessarily cause questions, except you used some intersting tool (say zbrush with a fancy brush...).
So if you did a good model with a lot of details, there won't neccessarily be a lot of questions (I think).
But: There will be lot of replies like "I like this one, good work"

A prize states more clearly what is the best.

morphius-ms
05-15-2007, 06:02 PM
I have to agree with TKMan. I don't believe that best model= more questions. Because I will probably take a look at the model and say "great model" and that wouldn't solve anything.

I personally say keep the voting system and there is a definite winner. But there could also be a sub thread on the voting thread where people could critique models, and ask questions about those models (but then again that is what the WIPs are for but there are some people that don't even get replies). It would honestly be a toss up if this works.

I do agree that there should be a set shader, (not including bump, displacement, and normal maps since that is what ultimately makes a base mesh more detailed if coming from a different program). This would make the focus more on modeling IMO. Besides it would honestly be up to the modeler if they want to texture, and compose the image later, and if they don't then they don't, if they do great.

These are my two cents on the current subjects.

AndreKling
05-15-2007, 07:38 PM
When i started the arguement about using same camera, lighting and shaders, i was just trying to make a point that its impossible to have an image judged just by the modelling department. As a scultpor i know that the enviroment has a huge impact in the final model, the surrouding is extremly important and its something that the sculptor cant ignore.
Lets be honest with ourselves, you cant ignore the fact that lighting, camera work, and layout of the pose are things that is not necessary part of the modelling department but are extremly important, and the modeler have to have this things in mind when he does his work, and i think its the same for texture and shader.
I have read all the arguments regarding not using texture nor shader, that this is beyound the forum objectives, but i disagree with it. The main focus of the forum is the modelling, but this does not mean that all the others skills that makes an artist are restricted. after all we are all artists.
What i think it is the weak point in the chain is the voting process, most because we are asking for people that havent seen any of the process involved in creating the final peace to decide which one is better ( and thats when lighting, tecture, camera angle ) influences aloooot.
I thnk the voters should be people that can separate the model part from all the other aspects that makes an image looks badass, and this is not an easy task, therefor i think the voters should be the people that participate in the comp, or people that have followed the topic process, and wont be mislead by a beauty shot.
We are all artists in here, and i think that ask someone to do worse than he thinks he can do is not the best way to follow... we shouldnt restrict the artist, but have better judges.
Andre

Firerbert
05-16-2007, 02:50 AM
I agree with Andre on this one. Artists are artists. Let them be and don't get so TD on them. I won't get back into my niche about shaded vs unshaded/textured/lighting, but he makes a very, very valid point. (Instead I'll ramble on for 15 pages about something else)

To say that people not involved in the thread or contest itself shouldn't be allowed to vote could work. The only problem I would forsee is that you're still going to get posts of people outside of the thread that didn't read that tidbit about voting that are still going to vote. That would just get annoying as crap to sift through the yays and the nays of the eligible and ineligible voters. I would take it a step further maybe and find a unbiased panel for judging. Again, another problem. Who do you choose for the panel? Obviously it would need to be people outside of the thread so they wouldn't vote for their own pieces. Although, it could work with specific people from the thread. I have noticed a lot of the voters that participate are unbiased and don't vote for their own stuff (but I'm sure some do have friends that they get to vote for their stuff). I don't think anyone here would really do something like vote for their own stuff. I just wanted to at least raise that as a possible quark. Who would be willing to do it? Possibly an even bigger tiff with the fact that they wouldn't be paid and if the full panel didn't vote, then their could be even more controversy. They would also need to be experienced in telling one good model from a bad one. Anyone that's done this for a while should be able to really make some serious distinctions for a well built model, i.e. edge flow, quads vs tris, animation capability, etc. Experienced modelers would be needed though I feel for a true judgement of a good model and see past the lighting, shading, and texturing. How big would you make the panel. One of the advantages of everyone voting is that you get more votes. Doing a panel does seem rather American Idolish*t, but there would only be X number of votes, and that kind of sux and takes away from the community aspect. I dunno, I'm tired now and ZB3 didn't get released and I spent the whole night stripping off wall paper in the dining room and the back of my eyelids read "stop rambling. start button. shut down." :argh:

morphius-ms
05-16-2007, 04:57 AM
There is a problem with the two suggestions from firerbert and andrekling. One of the things that I have seen from Roberto is trying to get people to notice this forum and participate. If we only limit the voting to the forum participants, or even just a panel, then there would be less "advertisement" for this place, therefore less prospective participants. (say that five times fast). Not to mention creating a panel would be hard to do and upkeep.

There really shouldn't be a change in the voting process. We just need to make the voters focus on the modeling. Hense why this is called the "Hardcore MODELING Challenge".

Though andrekling does have a valid point in that the environment, and textures do help a composition, and should be taken into consideration when creating a model, or character. But in this competition, they would just be constrictions, and distractions from the model itself.

But as many people have said in this conversation these could be added later, for a gallery piece, or portfolio piece.

fx81
05-16-2007, 06:40 AM
lol, its funny to see all these discussion. i think people are just forgetting that this forum was suppose to be focused on modeling only.
if you want to do everything else i think there are better places within cgtalk where you can do that. why bring it here?
it seems to be a popularity thing here. so the best thing that can be done to get the most amount of participants is to have no rules at all. why not allow anything and everything. who cares the name of the forum is something and what goes inside is another thing. all we care is that there will be more people participating.

however, on a serious note, i agree with Mr. Baker that we can take out the competetion concept and make it like a workshop. i think it could be more critique based, almost like a wip forum but with serious critiques. however there could be certain guidelines and rules so that artists stay focused.

AndreKling
05-16-2007, 08:43 AM
Hey mashru, i just dont see the connection in that to be hardcore modeling it has to be only modeling. What makes it hardcore is the subjects and the time limitis, in the end what really matters is the model itself. If we start to put too much restrictions on how the model should be presented, soon we will hv to face the dilema of software usage. What is more ¨hardcore¨ box modelling or sculpt with zbrush or mudbox ( or any other sculpt ap out there ). If this were the case the daily sketch forum would have to change its name too, since aloooot of the work presented in there have passed the sketch point.
I agree that it would be more dificult to get voters, so perhaps the forum moderators could do a fixed link to competitions, like a second row in the front page but with links to all the fun that is happening on cgtalk like this Hardcore Modelling, The Sketch of the Week, The anatomy 14 days cafe thing....
Or maybe do an interview with the winner, about the process of creating sucha peace, i think interviews like that could atract alot of attention and it would be a great way to learn from the good modelers in here.

Firerbert
05-16-2007, 10:48 AM
I just can't take it anymore! ARGH! In the words of Arnold Schwarzenegger "STOP! NO! DON'T DO IT! STOP EATING OTHER CHILDREN'S LUNCHES! GET DOWN! JAMIE! NOOOO! IT'S A BAAAAAOMB!"
can we start the next challenge soon. everyone seems to be getting somewhat... what's the word.......

TKMan
05-16-2007, 10:51 AM
starting the next challange is a good proposal!

Diabolos
05-16-2007, 12:11 PM
took the letters right from my keyboard - was just thinking the same thing, as I finally have some free time again.


D,

RobertoOrtiz
05-16-2007, 02:57 PM
Sorry guys for the delay, My parents are in town so my time has been cut in half this week.

I am planning to start the next challenge/ and post the results thread in the next few days.

Some hints:

Star Wars Based
ONLY 3-4 weeks
And Dioramas is what we are aiming for
What I have in mind is 3d representations of classic Star Wars scenes, after all I have to do something to celebrate the 30th anniversary :) .

Some examples:

Hand and Greedo
The Cantina Players
Luke on the Taun Taun
Darth Maul against everyone
Yoda vs Count Dookou
Jango Vs Obi wan
Princess Leia & Jabba
Luke & Yoda
C3po & Chewie on Cloud City
Yoda vs the Emperor
The Emperor & the Senate
Scout Trooper & his Bike
Order 66
Han and Chewie
Anakin vs Obi Wan
Wookies vs Clone Troopers
The HORRIBLE death of Jar jar
For this one, textures will be allowed (The next one Animals in Motion WILL BE WITHOUT textures).

But keep in mind, the dateline is VERY short.




-R

MrJames
05-16-2007, 02:59 PM
Might have to sit this one out because I'm finishing my degree, however the next one I will definatley be up for! :thumbsup:

Firerbert
05-16-2007, 04:11 PM
I am sooooooo totally stoked for both of these challenges.
For the Star Wars challenge; should we maybe restrict it to classic trilogy? Only reason is because the first three episodes are so heavily CG based.

TKMan
05-16-2007, 05:03 PM
Noooooo! (I want to do Christopher Lee :-))

and you will find much better footage from the newer ones, cause TV of the 80's has very bad resolution!

jamesylvester
05-16-2007, 05:05 PM
i agree keep it open more fun that way, i was hoping to do order 66

TKMan
05-16-2007, 05:14 PM
very ambitious!! How many Jedis are you planning to involve?

morphius-ms
05-16-2007, 05:26 PM
i'm personnally gonna sit this one out... I have a personal project that I want to do in the mean time... though I was thinking of makeing a model of vader but I am hoping to be done for the next challenge...

jamesylvester
05-16-2007, 05:34 PM
TKman: just the one, against a handfull of clone troopers, clone troopers should be easy cos once youve got one you can just copy, paste and repose

PenguinVisuals
05-17-2007, 07:26 AM
Andre Firebert I don't really agree about restricting votes within challengers. I don't know how much weight my opinion has since I never participate, but for me, I see these challenges as great inspirations and would really love to have a part in it, even if it's just the voting at the end. After all, it's community based activities.

I think if you want to be fair, you could select judges and seperate prizes into 2 catagories. Judges' vote, and public vote. That way you can have your trustworthy group of people to vote based on pure modeling that you want. And the artist can still use all their repertoires to bring the model further for public vote.

About shading... Personally I think it's all good. If the model isn't accurate in the first place, textures are not going to help.
If you want people to purely model in every bump details and not do it via texture, might as well call this a Zbrush/mudbox Challenge instead.

robo3687
05-17-2007, 07:48 AM
Noooooo! (I want to do Christopher Lee :-))

and you will find much better footage from the newer ones, cause TV of the 80's has very bad resolution!

uh.... DVD's? lol

-------------

as far as subjects for modelling go does anyone else like the idea of just having the statement be something like

"Choose a classic scene from the Star Wars films and reinterpret it into a 3d diorama, or think up your own scene and do the same"

I think by opening that up you'll find alot more creativity is generated and the option of creating your own could have possibilities like-

- death of jar jar
- yoda vs vader
- vader vs the emperor
- stormtroopers playing poker.....

i think that'd be a great idea

SONIC-X
05-17-2007, 10:50 AM
Love the subject for this one.Mmmmm!

Rod Seffen
05-17-2007, 11:24 AM
About shading... Personally I think it's all good. If the model isn't accurate in the first place, textures are not going to help.


That's completely wrong.
Misu's Maximus is an excellent example of that.
The naked grey model is not very good, and wouldn't have got any votes at all, but the final textured, shaded well lit image with hair plugins etc, actually won the contest.
Thus, this winner would have been better suited to the rendering challenge forum, because that's why it won, not on the strength of the modeling.
Is anyone beginning to see my point?

Firerbert
05-17-2007, 12:46 PM
Penguin, sounds like that could work. As I said, doing just a panel takes away from the community aspect and I wouldn't want to see that happen. But some voting system should be dialed in. If it did come down to gathering a dedicated panel to "assist" with voting, Oddity should be on it. He just made a very good point. The forum should maintain a strong sense of modeling dedication. A beauty render should not determine who wins the challenge. However, it should also not disqualify you from entering, nor should it be discarded in judging. Now enough about this argument. sheesh.

TKMan, I don't know what you're complaining about resolution for. They've spit polished everyone 3,469,343,990 times now. Turn in those Fox Home Video VHS tapes and buy the DVDs. Besides, what do you need it to be high res for anyway?

RobertoOrtiz
05-17-2007, 02:12 PM
I like the way you think...


Ill post the challenge in the next few days...

BTW Just an FYI for those who have textures, THE NEXT ONE Animals in Motion will be without textures.
uh.... DVD's? lol

-------------

as far as subjects for modelling go does anyone else like the idea of just having the statement be something like

"Choose a classic scene from the Star Wars films and reinterpret it into a 3d diorama, or think up your own scene and do the same"

I think by opening that up you'll find alot more creativity is generated and the option of creating your own could have possibilities like-

- death of jar jar
- yoda vs vader
- vader vs the emperor
- stormtroopers playing poker.....

i think that'd be a great idea

WyattHarris
05-17-2007, 05:34 PM
I'm really tempted to throw my hat in this ring.

First, 2 points:

1.
For the animals in motion, if you remove things like hair from the rules what are you left with? Have you ever seen a cat or a dog without hair. (Shudder) Creepy looking things. You probably mean the general shape of the animal minus hair shaders, just want to clarify. But really, this seems like a bad challenge to not include things like hair. IDK, it'll probably work I just need to wrap my head around it.

For the Star Wars challenge, do we have to go super movie accurate like the last challenge or can it be left to interpretation. I ask because I've had an idea in my head for redesigning a certain Star Wars character that is despised by all, despised because of the design, not the character itself. I'd like to coolify it if you will. That would be super groovy of you bro, if not that's cool, I'll have to keep thinking. :D

WyattHarris
05-17-2007, 05:59 PM
2.

In my mind when I think of modelling I really think of the whole package. Model, texture, hair etc. I never separate these things because I'm trying to bring a completed concept to life. I realize that most operations separate the different jobs, but this is not that structured of an environment, we should stay as fluid as possible. It's all about leaving your confort zone. A few have mentioned that they model and they came here to model so lets just model. C'mon guys, lets push ourselves to reach beyond what is easy personally and do something "challenging." Hence the point of a challenge. Now this is just me, I believe there's enough flexibility to eventually accomodate everyone.

I wasn't there at the beginning of this forum but hearing that it was David, a statue, makes me think that some of you thought they would all be like that and clearly that was not Roberto's intension. David was simply a starting point from which to grow.

Now, last time I checked there are no prizes for this challenge. No one is putting up money for it, so there really is no reason to nail down the entire future of the forum. Keep it fun should always be the mantra around here. The winner gets a good slap on the back and everyone congratulates everyone else and we move on to the next challenge. Some of the seriousness in these arguements remind me of a pick-up game of basketball when the ball goes out. People will argue for 5 min. about it when really we just want to play. I'm not disregarding anyones arguements here as they are all valid, but not every challenge is going to be to your likeing. Roll with it and soon your cup-o-tea will come around.

As for cutting off the rest of the CGS community, I'm pretty sure those that participate enjoy showing off their work to the whole site, not just the few that sign up. A better idea is for Roberto to not count an entry and display it until the participant meets the guildlines for that challenge. Ultimately he is the one that presents the entries.

I think I may have a solution for everyone. You SHOULD rename the forum. Instead of the "Hardcore Modeling Challenge" call it "Roberto Ortiz's Hardcore Challenge." Let's face it, Roberto is something of a celebrity around here now and I think his name would bring the folks in. :D

Ah whatever, lets do this.

jojo1975
05-17-2007, 06:05 PM
oDDity. I generally find your position strong.. but this time I agree wit you
I voted for MISU for Most Accurate Likeness and his rendered image is really beautiful but for me we have to put RULES.
Will be displacement considering cheat ?
If we want Hardcore MODELLING Challenge we should use only CLAY RENDERER.
Does someone remember the John Locke thread ?
What will happen if next competition I will make a plane and project a startfighter ? Will I win as most accurate likeness ? (I know that MISU didn't do this but just a question to say "how much we can "push" on texture and displacement ?)
Someone also talk about two jury. for me it's not necessary JUST PUT RULES. And make people respect them. Hardcore Modelling competition should be for MODELS not for lighting, texturing, rendering, etc... look at the gandalf model for example or at the other wonderful leonida. that is wonderful modelling.. But I also understand the potin that zbrush ad mudbox really take advatages in a pure "clay" competition...

Since we have a kind of former dictator roberto should say what he thinks. I hope that he will judge wisely ;)
Otherwise we can just rename the competition.. we will have MINI CG CHALLENGE (for me it's ok) but please don't say HC modelling competition

ArYeS
05-18-2007, 12:52 PM
Please just don't forget Boba Fett and Jango Fett.

jhuasdas87bd
05-19-2007, 03:22 PM
oDDity. I generally find your position strong.. but this time I agree wit you
I voted for MISU for Most Accurate Likeness and his rendered image is really beautiful but for me we have to put RULES.
Will be displacement considering cheat ?
If we want Hardcore MODELLING Challenge we should use only CLAY RENDERER.
Does someone remember the John Locke thread ?
What will happen if next competition I will make a plane and project a startfighter ? Will I win as most accurate likeness ? (I know that MISU didn't do this but just a question to say "how much we can "push" on texture and displacement ?)
Someone also talk about two jury. for me it's not necessary JUST PUT RULES. And make people respect them. Hardcore Modelling competition should be for MODELS not for lighting, texturing, rendering, etc... look at the gandalf model for example or at the other wonderful leonida. that is wonderful modelling.. But I also understand the potin that zbrush ad mudbox really take advatages in a pure "clay" competition...

Since we have a kind of former dictator roberto should say what he thinks. I hope that he will judge wisely ;)
Otherwise we can just rename the competition.. we will have MINI CG CHALLENGE (for me it's ok) but please don't say HC modelling competition

I agree with you. I would like to join a modeling challenge but I don't like texturing. I'm going to participate in the next challenge but probably you'll see just a clay render, I know it doesn't look attractive but if this is a modeling challenge it should better be like this, i think :)

AndreKling
05-19-2007, 05:07 PM
no one said that clay renders shouldnt be allowed, in fact the arguments are more about not forbiden someone to push futhre if he wishes. Lets face the fact, the objective of the challenges is to grow as an artist, and the focus is on modelling but this doesnt necessary means that you cant go the extra mile.
Just look at small miniatures, they all looks gorgeous as models in itself, but probably you wont see many that havent been painted.
Say that this is a hardcore modelling and it should be only modeling is over react, a bump map or displacement is extremly important to the modelling stage, just look at any gnomon videos of real sculture and you will see that the artist spend alot of times working on small details like pores and wrickles... i doubt everybdoy here has a machine that can work in a model with billion faces ( i sure dont hv one, accept donations though :P ).
Basically, if you just want to model do it, the main objective is model but dont forbide someone to work even more on his model.
Andre

KrakenCMT
05-21-2007, 02:39 PM
I don't think anyone was saying to not use displacements, bump or normal maps. I think that they are absolutely necessary for adding sculpted detail. The objection is that if you make texturing optional and say it shouldn't influence voting, that you can't make that guarantee.

We all know that if 2 equally good models are posted and one is textured and one isn't that the textured one will receive more votes simply because it looks more finished to most amateurs. And amateurs do vote in the challenge.

If the option to texture is presented, then the pressure will be on to texture your model vs not to contend.

I hear what you are saying about the painted figurines. But what about all the great classical sculptures or even modern sculptures of figures not painted in a realistic way? I compare what this challenge is about with that - using modeling skills to sculpt the true form rather than using texture to give the illusion of form. That is what made the challenge so appealing in the first place.

Instead of a modeling challenge that pushes the texturing aspect, it's a modeling challenge that pushes the modeling aspect.

AndreKling
05-21-2007, 06:28 PM
Well, basically the classical sculpures were painted, but the paint on them disapeared with time, and the renascence artists didnt know that and were influenced by the look the sculptures had in their time, but what this shows is that models without textures can be amazing peaces of art, and in some cases it can be even better than a painted one.
Just to hv a texture in the model doesnt mean it will be better than model B, if the texture sucks it can kill the model.. i have seen alot of painted miniatures that the paint job totally kills the model, but in the hands of skilled artists it can push even futher the final model.
Just look to last challenge, misu model was absolutly beautifull, and i dont think it is just because it has a texture on it, the gray shaded model is very accurate, but if you say that his model was more voted because it had texture on it, i would disagree, i think he did what have to be done.
The real challenge in here is the voting process, its extremly hard to vote in this kind of contest when you have the liking influencing the final decision. If someone is mislead by the texture, it may aswell be mislead for the subject in itself, being totally honest i can imagine that next challenge will have a dozen boba feet ( for its a very iconic figure ) and it will be hard to hv it voted in equal conditions to a less apealing character from the movie.
In fact what really matters is what you learn from the contest, its a great place to get feedback from people that is extremly talented, and being this a modelling contest you will see good modelers in here, so the critiques will be very usefull for your modelling skills. I just think that someone just vote in their favourite images doesnt mean that they are participating at all. Evert time i read throug alot of votes just to find the ones that i consider valids, and is the ones from artists that has participated on the challenge, or had participated in the past.
The main focus of this challenges should be about modelling, and not about winning or losing doesnt really matter if the other artist has a textured model and you dont, what matters is what you learned and the quality of your work. The contest is just a way to gather people toward a comon goal, and thats why i dont think we should be too restrictive in the rules.
Well, i hope its possible to understand my point of view, and sorry to keep arguing about this thing over and over again.
Andre

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