ViaCAD Fillets

[3dData]

The first few times I tried some difficult bevels with Concepts (using the demo at the time), -- I expected them to fail -- but they didn't. Bevels and fillets that were a problem with other programs were easy -- and adjustable -- using the History pallet, I just was amazed.

I bought the software.

That was for Concepts 3D at $495

ViaCAD is $99 with the same beveling ability.

With the FAC export, I don't see how discussing ViaCAD can be OT!

[PaulS2]

Lots of unlearning the EIM way...but I still like EIM.

One thing which I always liked about Rhino was one could marque select a bunch of edges - even edges which had been previously rounded and Rhino would just round what it could and not complain about the ones it couldn't (previously rounded).

EIM always ...I mean ALWAyS failed even if you looked at the screen the wrong way. I got very good at being EIM's servant and slave saying "yes sir" at it's whim and command:-).

ViaCAD is similar to Rhino in this regard - I've been able to just marque select a bunch of stuff and it usually rounds what it can and ignores the rest and doesn't spit up ACIS errors at you for selecting what EIM considered the untouchables.

It's not quite as forgiving as Rhino but it sure isn't EIM.

[3dData]

I wonder how much of the rounding ability is ACIS at the most current version.

I found that you can even round surface edges.

[arketype]

Some of it may be ACIS, but I think a lot of this is really just Tim Olson.
Many years ago, I remember seeing a "rounding shootout" between CAD software- Autocad, Solidworks, Vellum Solids (the precursor to Ashlar's Cobalt, and the Concepts line), etc. Many were based on similar versions of ACIS, but Tim's product beat the pants off Solidworks and everything else too.
I think there were 14 "tests" of increasing complexity, and many software packages began failing after the 4th test. If I remember correctly, Tim's software completed 13 of the 14 tests.
So ACIS may be a factor, but that does not replace good programming, and an understanding of what users need.

[PaulS2]

I vaguely recall some shoot-out a few years back - probably the same. I believe it as the fillets are a joy to use and have rairly failed.

After a full week of using ViaCAD I am even more impressed in how well everything behaves and works. It's not perfect stability-wise...far better than EIM though.

I still continue to have to unlearn solids tip-toeing and am finding areas where I shyed away from in EIM - for example, shelling and thickening..I refused to touch these tools as they were constantly problematic. Not so in ViaCAD.

Looking at EIM in the light of using ViaCAD I think it was maybe 35% - 40% done or complete/refined. There were so many areas where I became 'reasonable' and silently concluded "that's the way ACIS is"....I think ViaCAD is about 85% in comparison. Much more mature feeling and areas where ACIS could be problematic have been 'friendlied-up' to make the modeling experience a creative one.

[3dData]

Making solids modeling creative, I guess that sums it up for me. I used FormZ for a long time and it seemed to me you had to have the entire modeling process planned out ahead of time. And with each boolean, rounding or trim, the potential was there for having it all fall apart and having to begin again. With Concepts, I can start with a blank page and just start modeling and see where it takes me. Not to say I don't end up with a deadend, but a lot fewer, and it actually can be fun!

[arketype]

Making solids modeling creative, I guess that sums it up for me. I used FormZ for a long time and it seemed to me you had to have the entire modeling process planned out ahead of time. And with each boolean, rounding or trim, the potential was there for having it all fall apart and having to begin again. With Concepts, I can start with a blank page and just start modeling and see where it takes me. Not to say I don't end up with a deadend, but a lot fewer, and it actually can be fun!

Yeah,
I still use formZ. One of the last versions allows for selecting and moving each individual face of an ACIS solid. This drastically changes your opportunities for editing shapes. It's pretty open now with many fewer "dead ends". You can even rotate a face to create draft angle (formZ's draft angle tool is hideous, Concept's is pretty good). I still primarily use formZ because I do a lot of sweeps with complex paths, and formZ's interactive editing of this kind of shape is much better than what Concepts offers right now.

Still, formZ is offering very little in the way of new functionality with their recent upgrades. Most of the improvements recently have been adding functionality I already have through EIAS (Animation, and now GI rendering). Now it seems like it's just getting bloated with features that I don't need, while ignoring features I do need (the drafting environment is the worst).

I am mostly importing formZ models through ACIS into Concepts for detailing. I hope the aquisition by Punch allows Tim to get some much needed updates into the Concepts line.

[3dData]

I stopped upgrading FormZ at v4x. The route they are going down now with animation just is something I don't need. I do miss the multiple profile sweeps and lofting with multiple guides of FormZ. There are workarounds with Concepts, but that's what they are -- workarounds. Plus the FAC export from FormZ became really convoluted to execute, so I had to add the extra step of SAT export.

I don't know how far ViaCAD can go for incorporting new features, but I'm hoping Concepts can continue forward.

[WmH]

I thought I would tag this onto your ViaCAD fillets thread so we don't start dozens of new ViaCAD threads.

This may be known to the rest of you, but I just found (by accident) the constraints/workplane move/toggle hotkey and it drastically improved my modeling workflow.

Let me explain; I always moved and changed the work-plane via the menu commands (WorkPlain menu), fairly cumbersome but similar to most 3D packages. you can set the work plane to the axis you want (xy,yz,xz,screen or arbitrary points) and set the origin. Useful but a fairly cumbersome modal change and can be avoided, somewhat, by ViaCAD's excellent smart cursor constraints system. (ie placing points not in the xy plane)

However... i stumbled on a hotkey for setting the workplane on the current snap location (and after checking, it is documented) anytime the cursor is locating a potential snap point you can hit the c key (without clicking the mouse) to move the workplane to that point (from the origin) repeated clicks toggle through the 3 normal modes (xy,yz,xz) and perpendicular to current view. This is fantastic while in the middle of drawing a spline you can easily move/reorient the default drawing/constraint plane, and do it quickly and easily. You can literally change workplanes at a whim, Also you don't need to be drawing to or from the point you want to set as the workplane origin the cursor simply has to be hovering the point (snap label showing) for the hotkey to work. Whereas I used to use the default (xy, on 0,0,0) 95% of the time (and use use the smart cursor) I now move and reorient it constantly, because it is so simple and make it much easier to draw. (to restore the plane to the default 0,0,0 simply mouse over the drawing origin and hit the c key till you toggle the plane back to XY, or... you can select set origin from the workplanes menu and then click on the drawing origin and then go back up and select top from the workplanes menu (see what I mean;-))

[PaulS2]

I came across that feature a couple of days ago but haven't really incorporated it into my workflow - that is a WOW! feature! It really lets you draw in 3D easily and have everything aligned. I'm finding there is a lot to juggle learning a new modeler - takes me a bit of time to get a flow worked out just right.

There are so many of those wows for me.....it is so nice to have the whole toolset actually work....and be useable:-).

I still can't believe the value in ViaCAD....once again, it's a must get for anyone doing 3D.

[3dData]

It took me a bit of time to realize the power of the "c" key. Once mastered, it really makes setting up profiles for sweeps and creating curves for surfacing very easy.

Did you know that the when you execute any modeling, the value can be changed without highlighting the value or Undoing. For example if you create an extrude with a value of 2 and you wanted it to be 10, just type in 10 and the value will update in the box and the extrude will update with the new value. Another time saver.

[PaulS2]

Here's a quick and simple example of using the 'C' key to set work-planes on the fly while drawing in 3D for those following but needing something to look at to envision how it works.

http://homepage.mac.com/sherstobitoff/.Pictures/ViaCad/C&snap.jpg

The straight lines were drawn using different work-planes created by using the C key while drawing. Very fast and fluid!

Then the corners of the curves were filleted with a fairly large radius. This also created snapping center points for each or the radi (I freak'n love that!!). I then drew circles snapping to the center points and also finding the correct work-plane for each circle with the C key. Much simpler than it sounds:-)

Then everything was piped, booleaned and then filleted. Creating this took about a minute.

[PaulS2]

It took me a bit of time to realize the power of the "c" key. Once mastered, it really makes setting up profiles for sweeps and creating curves for surfacing very easy.

Did you know that the when you execute any modeling, the value can be changed without highlighting the value or Undoing. For example if you create an extrude with a value of 2 and you wanted it to be 10, just type in 10 and the value will update in the box and the extrude will update with the new value. Another time saver.


Thanks for the tip...I've been going back and hi-liting. The history in ViaCad works and is a joy to have.

[3dData]

That modeling history saved me on a large project. After extruding 14 highly detailed US state outlines and beveling the edges (and there were many, many edges), the client requested more of an extrude. I just updated the data for the extrude and everything (including the bevels) updated. That was another WOW moment for me.

Nice image Paul!

[Burney]

That modeling history saved me on a large project. After extruding 14 highly detailed US state outlines and beveling the edges (and there were many, many edges), the client requested more of an extrude. I just updated the data for the extrude and everything (including the bevels) updated. That was another WOW moment for me.

Nice image Paul!

Hi Joe,

Can ViaCAD save the modeling history so that it appears when reopened the file and make changes to parameter in the history list?

Burney

[3dData]

Hi Joe,

Can ViaCAD save the modeling history so that it appears when reopened the file and make changes to parameter in the history list?

Burney

Yes it does. But...if you have an overly complex item, the history can cause the file to bloat. I had a detailed knob in which the knurls were geometry with bevels -- yielded a 50Meg file. Once I got rid of the links, it dropped to 6 Megs. So there is always some bad with the good.

Download the Concepts 3D demo and email Tim Olsen for a 30 day serial number. That will allow you to save and export to FAC to fully test it's capabilities. ViaCAD does not have a demo.

[Burney]

Yes it does. But...if you have an overly complex item, the history can cause the file to bloat. I had a detailed knob in which the knurls were geometry with bevels -- yielded a 50Meg file. Once I got rid of the links, it dropped to 6 Megs. So there is always some bad with the good.

Download the Concepts 3D demo and email Tim Olsen for a 30 day serial number. That will allow you to save and export to FAC to fully test it's capabilities. ViaCAD does not have a demo.

Hi Joe,

Thank for the info. Does the increase in file size cause by the saved modeling history slow down the modeling operation significantly?

Burney

[3dData]

Hi Joe,

Thank for the info. Does the increase in file size cause by the saved modeling history slow down the modeling operation significantly?

Burney


There is some more hard disk activity (don't know if it's related), file takes longer to load, once loaded I don't notice any real slowdown. But I'm on a MacPro Quad with 4 Gigs of RAM, so that may overcome some slowdown. I have broken down the modeling of complex objects so that an object that may under go many revisions, I model as a separate file.

Use the demo with the 30 day serial number, that was the deal closer for me. After using Concepts 3D for a month, I was confident it could do what I needed it to do. It's not perfect, but what software is?

[Burney]

There is some more hard disk activity (don't know if it's related), file takes longer to load, once loaded I don't notice any real slowdown. But I'm on a MacPro Quad with 4 Gigs of RAM, so that may overcome some slowdown. I have broken down the modeling of complex objects so that an object that may under go many revisions, I model as a separate file.

Use the demo with the 30 day serial number, that was the deal closer for me. After using Concepts 3D for a month, I was confident it could do what I needed it to do. It's not perfect, but what software is?

I will write to Tim Olsen and get the CU demo for a spin. Thank you for all the fine thoughts.

Burney

[WmH]

One of the things that initially seemed to be missing in ViaCAD was the construct tangent surface between (bridging) two objects. This was useful (but difficult to use without a lot of trial and error) in EIM

I quickly discovered that the the loft surface and blend tools are so strong that it makes it easy to synthesize a psudo tangent connecting surface (and can even construct surfaces it would be dificult or impossible using the EIM tools.

http://idisk.mac.com/holderness/Public/Concept/TangentConnect.jpg

I just drew a spline along the path I wanted the surface to take from the surface of one sphere to the other (orient the spline handles to and from the center so the spline will be normal to the surface at the ends) construct a circle at each end project to the surface. Place a couple additional shapes along the spline (using a local construction makes this easy) and then loft a surface using the projected circles and the additional circles placed on the spline and you have the surface. Now you just need to pull the surface just inside the end objects (spheres in this case) , boolean the whole thing together and use the blend tool on the joints between the constructed surface and the objects.
It is much easier to do than to explain, try it. it is really simple and in the example above the subtle double bend (S) in the connector would be very difficult (or impossible) to achieve using the blend between faces tool in EIM (and doubtless would have required considerable time fighting to attempt to get the shape)

[PaulS2]

Thanks for putting up the info...good results.

I've had many discussions with Kishore & Himanshu, when they were working on EIM, on increasing the robustness of the face2face and surface blends. Once I started using Rhino and came across the surface blends I really wanted to see them in EIM. Some work had been started on incorporating similar features but alas, both departed and the development was never completed.

Rhino does this sort of thing better than any modeler I have come across...it's the reason I use Rhino. That one tool 'surface blend' is so useful it keeps me coming back.

The continuity is so good (smoooooth) in ViaCAD it's almost like having that seamless blend Rhino can create so effortlessly...almost.

I'm still amazed at the value one receives for $99 with ViaCAD....I've been using the history more and more - and it actually works as it's supposed to!

[manuel]

Does ViaCad support import of FAC's as reference?

[WmH]

Does ViaCad support import of FAC's as reference?

No, but if you export as DXF from EI, ViaCAD can import the file and you can use it for reference. It comes in as full geometry so it is more than just reference, however it is just polygons so rounded models may only be really useful as reference. (editing large arrays of polyfaces in ViaCAD is an exercise in futility)

[manuel]

Okay. Do you have to do a lot of resizing/flipping axis/flipping normals... when going back and forth between both apps?

[WmH]

Okay. Do you have to do a lot of resizing/flipping axis/flipping normals... when going back and forth between both apps?

So far the fact export has been spot on perfect for me, no tess errors at all; no flipped faces no missing normal data (dare I say, as good as EIM was) I also like the interactive tessellation (you mesh dynamically at export)

As far as back and forth... Not sure I completely understand your meaning. Fact is a poly format and ViaCAD is a sheet/solids (CSG) modeler (like EIM was) and while it can import fact models (via DXF) they are a collection of small sheets (polys). You could, on a simple model, stitch the sheets (polys) back together and get a working CSSG model again, but I think for the most part fact models going back to ViaCAD are for reference only.

[manuel]

What I mean is. If you export a human figure from EIAS as a DXF, import it into ViaCad. Model a house to match the size of the human figure and then bring the house into Animator, would the size of he house still relate the same way to the human figure?

[WmH]

What I mean is. If you export a human figure from EIAS as a DXF, import it into ViaCad. Model a house to match the size of the human figure and then bring the house into Animator, would the size of he house still relate the same way to the human figure?

Ah, I got it. Scale with fact files is always a funky parameter (there were always people complaining of scale issues between EIM and EIAS) Not completely sure (Paul S was always a clear understanding of EIM/EIAS scale issues perhaps he can chime in here)
When I have a bit of playtime I will attempt a simple export dxf->import->create new geo->export fact->import the new geometry into EIAS, and see how it goes. (as I am curious myself and right now I am determining the ins and outs of fitting ViaCAD into my workflow. I can tell you that so far, I have been nothing less than stunned at the quality and professionally of this modeler. As far as my opinion goes, any EI user would be crazy not to get it (given the $99 price))

[PaulS2]

I think you have me confused with someone who understands the scaling relationships between EIM and EI:-) I really don't and have had no need to come to terms with it.

My models usually come from a nurbs modeler and in the past via EIM, so any scaling was done there to make things fit.

Exporting and importing as .sat between EIM and ViaCAD with scale set to meters in ViaCAD everything lines up fine.

[arketype]

Scale issues are usually just a matter of matching units.
When mixing models from different sources you just need to know what units the model was created with, and scale the model to "convert" the units from one to another.

Some modelers will have a "scale" feature on export which makes this easy.
In EIAS you can scale a fact model, export as fact (preserving transformations) and re-import . this should re-set the model's scale values to 1, while keeping the model at the new size.

The most common scale problem I see with most files is mm to inches- a simple 25.4:1 ratio.

I suppose feet to meters is common in architecture which is pretty close to 3.2808:1

If you can identify the unit measurement you can actualy scale the objects very acurately using these unit ratios.

[arketype]

Triple Post

[arketype]

Sorry-Quadruple post.
The forum is acting funky today...

[manuel]

Some modelers will have a "scale" feature on export which makes this easy.
So does ViaCad have this?
I'm very much into Poly's these days. I recognise some things are easier in NURBS (booleans). But if it means a lot of hassle when bringing the results of both worlds together, I'll pass.

P.S. Apparently ViaCad is based on ACIS. How can they do that for that price? I thought the death of EIM came about because of the price Spatial were charging.

[WmH]

I think you have me confused with someone who understands the scaling relationships between EIM and EI:-) I really don't and have had no need to come to terms with it.

My models usually come from a nurbs modeler and in the past via EIM, so any scaling was done there to make things fit.

Exporting and importing as .sat between EIM and ViaCAD with scale set to meters in ViaCAD everything lines up fine.

LOL, I though I was the only one who didn't get it. When importing to EI I typically enclosed the model in a box of known size and just scale the box to the correct (known) size in EI Then save (export) the model with inherited scale and, presto, perfect scale with no thinking required;-)

P.S. I have been playing with ViaCAD and EIAS both set to inches and the imports have been perfectly sized in EI. I haven't yet played with metric or with decimal feet which I commonly use. I did run across a post in the ViaCAD board where someone had his units set in mm and they exported to EIAS (also set up with mm as the minor unit) with everything sized 25.4X too small (classic metric-inch scale error) This is a common problem between scaled (EI fact) and real size (most CAD) file formats.

[arketype]

Nope, Concpets/Viacad will just export the model in the default units.
You cannot chose to scale to another unit automatically on export.

You can scale things manually, of course.

formZ does have this feature, and it proves useful for converting models.

[MarsViolet]

LOL, I though I was the only one who didn't get it.

And I thought it was just me!

[Be.eM]

Nope, Concpets/Viacad will just export the model in the default units.
You cannot chose to scale to another unit automatically on export.


This is currently not completely true. While ViaCad does respect the units set for ACIS or STEP, it exports to FACT using inches, even when you've set a metric unit (prefs). This leads to problems, because I'm using a mixture of FormZ, EIM and ViaCad models, and the latter ones are scaled down by 2.54. Not really data exchange as it should be...

But: I've reported this to Punch, and they'll implement a unit selection dropdown list for FACT export:

http://forum.punchcad.com/showthread.php?t=123

(link will only work for registered Punch forum members)

Bernd

[arketype]

Thanks!
Good to know Bernd.
I always use formZ to go into EIAS.
I did not realize Concepts/Viacad would not use the default units!
I have only used Concepts for going to other engineering packages/ rapid prototyping.

[WmH]

Again this may be old news to most of you... but, I was making my way through the manual and discovered that you can blend between two separate objects.
Below (link) was a cylinder and a sphere. set the blend radius (to something reasonable for the objects and the distance between them) hold the shift down and click on each object release the shift and place a "helper click" between the two objects.

http://idisk.mac.com/holderness/Public/Concept/TwoObjBlend.jpg

Also; I now find that keeping the concept explorer and snap dialogs onscreen in the extra space to the right of the coordinate readouts is really handy. (right click on title bar to select "collapse to top", then they will only expand when the mouse is over them (I find the object concept explorer very useful to keep onscreen, both for layers and to refer to specific features in the object hierarchy for modification or deletion)

[PaulS2]

That's great...never knew that! Works well with history too.

You're really digging around in the tools. Keep the examples and tips coming.

[PaulS2]

While I find ViaCAD exceptional in the fillets area, every now and then I come across a poorly drawn font which needs to be reworked....redrawn, before it will round properly.

This is one place where EIM really comes in handy - it's ability to draw bezier splines and also edit curves created elsewhere is very good. I do find editing curves in ViaCAD a little tricky and much prefer the toools in EIM or Rhino. I always edit curves drawn in ViaCAD in ViaCAD.

Here's an example of a small project which did not behave initially very well in ViaCAD and had to go to Rhino to create the 'off-set' curves....best program I have for this and then into EIM to clean up curves. EIM's offset curve tool isn't very robust and I wish ViaCAD had this function in it's toolset.

Finally exported to ViaCAD for those deep, deep bevels.

http://homepage.mac.com/sherstobitoff/.Pictures/ViaCad/3D01.jpg

...and rendered in EI. By the way, there is no other program I know which can render out noise like in this image for that metal-flake effect.

[arketype]

Your metals are always beautiful Paul!
There seems to be a subtlety that you are able to achieve, that is difficult in CG.

I'm glad you are liking ViaCad.
I would use Concepts unlimited more often but, as far as I can tell, interactive editing of complex paths for sweeps isn't very sophisticated. formZ offers much greater control.
This is a feature I've been asking for, so we'll see what happens with the next version.
If you run across any tips for complex path editing (for sweeps or "pipes") I would really like to hear about them.

[PaulS2]

Thanks.

Complex paths in VIaCAD/Concepts are a mixed bag. I really like the fact that you can just draw the shapes you need - don't even need to join them into one path and can perform solids modeling with them - extrude for example.

On the down-side (maybe there is a solution for this as I am quite inexperienced with the toolset) if some of your un-joined curves need to maintain tangency at end and start points it is very difficult to do any edits on the curves without something going off. Also editing curves created elsewhere (Rhino) just doesn't seem to work very well...also editing bezier curves from Illustrator just doesn't feel very elegant.

The little 3D project I did went from Illustrator (tried ViaCAD first but had rounding issues) to Rhino (off-setting curves) to EIM (to clean up all curves and redraw some and then knife the basic solids) to VIaCAD for all of the heavy rounding after the curves were optimized...and then to EI for rendering. A few steps but was happy to use each application to it's strenghts - their strenghts are unique and if staying within those boundaries everything went very well.

[3dData]

Yes, another wonderful image Paul, the attention to detail is amazing!

Concept's line tools are a mixed bag, not having to join segments before perfoming extrudes or revolves is a big time saver. Editing, is really quite weak and it has been mentioned on the Concepts forum. To me the holy grail of segment editing/creating is Adobe Illustrator, the closer an app can mimick Illustrator's Pen Tool's feel the better.

The only thing I can think of about working with type outlines in Concepts is to bring in the outlines from Illustrator and review the corner angles and look for any stray points near the corners that will eventually be rounded. I would do my font outline edits in Illustrator and then reimport.

Isn't it sort of strange that after all the years of 3D software and years of development, modelers are using more applications on a single project than before. Something seems odd to be using $800 software for translation purposes! :o)

[PaulS2]

Thanks.

I think 3D Max's curve editing is my favorite - very similar to having illustrator right in the interface. It really has all of the tools one needs to create and edit clean and efficient curves....besides editing one can trim, boolean and off-set, etc curves.

My next favorite curve environment is EIM - it's handling of bezier type curves is quite good though very pedestrian with very few bell and whistles. It gets the job done.

One thing I like with ViaCAD, which used to drive me nuts in EIM is curve direction isn't an issue. In EIM everything has to be just so and all looking in the same direction, thinking the same thoughts and behaving orderly. A very, very conservative work environment.

[3dData]

One thing I like with ViaCAD, which used to drive me nuts in EIM is curve direction isn't an issue. In EIM everything has to be just so and all looking in the same direction, thinking the same thoughts and behaving orderly. A very, very conservative work environment.

The same reason I moved from FormZ to Concepts. With few exceptions, Concepts works more like a free form design tool. FormZ, IMO, requires too many pick and clicks. FormZ CAN do things that Concepts can't, but maybe Concepts will add those missing features eventually. It will be interesting to see what the first upgrade under Punch! looks like.

[arketype]

The same reason I moved from FormZ to Concepts. With few exceptions, Concepts works more like a free form design tool. FormZ, IMO, requires too many pick and clicks. FormZ CAN do things that Concepts can't, but maybe Concepts will add those missing features eventually. It will be interesting to see what the first upgrade under Punch! looks like.

Yes. formZ is now getting feature bloat. Lots of features that I don't, and probably won't use.
The most useful tool they've added recently is the ability to move, rotate, etc. a face of a "smooth" (ACIS) model.
in practical terms this is no "small" feature!

If the Concepts line can get itself "polished" under Punch's extra resources, I would seriously consider abandoning formZ for Concepts as my primary modeler.

I am really rooting for Tim and the Concepts team over at Punch.

[PaulS2]

I've talked to Tim a number of times and found him to be a great guy. Always helpful, willing to go out of his way to be of assistance.

[3dData]

I wonder why ViaCAD is not mentioned on the EI site. New modeler, great price, would be a good addition to Silo as an offered modeler.

[PaulS2]

Good point - it's not like there is an over-abundance of modelers which have a good fact export. Let alone being a great modeler just in general....EI really needs to chummie up with other companies.

Looking at it further - here's a company which produces a very capable solids modeler which is used in the design industry but only has a basic render and only in their high-priced package. No animation capability. It has to have customers who are in need of a fast, high-quality render - EI should always be mentioned when rendering comes up...and visa versa. ViaCAD is perfect for use with EI - EI should be promoting the hell out of it and really establish some great allies in the industry.

A little back patting sure would go a long ways and would help both companies out.

[juanxer]

...and discovered that you can blend between two separate objects.
Below (link) was a cylinder and a sphere. set the blend radius (to something reasonable for the objects and the distance between them) hold the shift down and click on each object release the shift and place a "helper click" between the two objects.

http://idisk.mac.com/holderness/Public/Concept/TwoObjBlend.jpg
(This is where I get to look like a total moron, but…)

WmH, would you be so kind as to describe exactly how did you produce that kind of blend in ViaCAD? As much as I try to follow the user guide directions, the only thing I get is error messages, so I must be missing some fundamental step, be it tool options, blend parameters or such. It would be great if you could send me a small example file. I am really desperate to practice those blends.

[3dData]

The secret to blend between two objects is to hold the shift key down as you select the two objects and then you have to click a point between the two objects to set the blend area (watch for tool prompts as you click). The blend radius may need to be adjusted to suit. You will get a message about the radius being too big or small.

[juanxer]

I get it up to the "specify help position for blend" point. The thing is, I click somewhere between the two faces I intend to blend, and then most of times I get a "Bad starting point given for face-face blend geometry:Fillet" error message (or else radius errors). This is frustrating, because it must be something incredibly silly I am missing.

I am trying this on geometry similar to the example WmH posted: a cylinder and a sphere trimmed to show facing carvings: While in the Constant Blend (Radial) tool, I shift-select both faces, de-shift and click somewhere in between as prompted, and get the error message.

[3dData]

Try it with two spheres, that's how I figured it out. Then I applied the same technique to other shapes.

EDIT: That's odd, I can't seem to get a blend between a sphere and a cylinder either?

[PaulS2]

After WmH posted the tip I tried it with a sphere and a cyl - it worked after trying a couple of times. I think everything needs to be just right for it to work and I'm not quite sure what settings would apply in each individual case.

[WmH]

After WmH posted the tip I tried it with a sphere and a cyl - it worked after trying a couple of times. I think everything needs to be just right for it to work and I'm not quite sure what settings would apply in each individual case.

I just tried it a couple times with various geometry and was successful every time (lucky perhaps?) I think perhaps the scale (radius) of the blend is critical. I basically visualize a sphere rolling around the blend (they are called rolling ball blends) and decide what radius would be suitable. too small

I will create a demo with a couple different blends and some instructions on blend radius and upload. I will update this thread with the load url when I get it done and up.

Edit:
Yup, I think you guys are specifying too small a blend radius. I did manage to get a "bad starting point for a face to face blend" when I specified a radius small enough to generate a self intersecting blend on a cylinder to sphere blend. Raising the blend radius slightly generated a successful blend.
Will upload an example .vc3 file in a couple minutes.

[WmH]

I get it up to the "specify help position for blend" point. The thing is, I click somewhere between the two faces I intend to blend, and then most of times I get a "Bad starting point given for face-face blend geometry:Fillet" error message (or else radius errors). This is frustrating, because it must be something incredibly silly I am missing.

I am trying this on geometry similar to the example WmH posted: a cylinder and a sphere trimmed to show facing carvings: While in the Constant Blend (Radial) tool, I shift-select both faces, de-shift and click somewhere in between as prompted, and get the error message.

I think your blend radius may be too small.
In this example file there are 2 sets of blends 2 sphere-sphere and 2 sphere-cylinder the S-S are blended with a 1.5" and a 5" blend, however the S-C set are blended with a 2" and a 5" blend (a 1.5" is too small and will generate an error) you can try it out on the extra S-C set.

http://idisk.mac.com/holderness/Public/Concept/TwoObjecctBlends.vc3

Edit: just for yucks I tried a 20" (HUGE) blend on the S-C geometry and it was successful so it appears the rule when you are guessing at a blend radius is err on the large side rather then the small.

[juanxer]

Thank you very much for your help: playing with your file the first thing I've realized I was misunderstanding is the kind of faces you were considering for blends. I thought you were pre-trimming the objects, carving them to produce pre-cut faces to be continuity-blended, not realizing you simply selected the entire sphere surface and the cylinder's cylindrical one, actually. It was a far more simple process than I thought.

Once I was aware of that, it was simply a matter of playing with the parameters, as you said.

(What now concerns me is if there is a way of succesfully doing what I was trying to in the first place: continuity-blend faces resulting from trimmings. If not so, I guess one will have to do via lofting, as you showed us in another post)

Thanks, again :)

[PaulS2]

Thank you very much for your help: playing with your file the first thing I've realized I was misunderstanding is the kind of faces you were considering for blends. I thought you were pre-trimming the objects, carving them to produce pre-cut faces to be continuity-blended, not realizing you simply selected the entire sphere surface and the cylinder's cylindrical one, actually. It was a far more simple process than I thought.

Once I was aware of that, it was simply a matter of playing with the parameters, as you said.

(What now concerns me is if there is a way of succesfully doing what I was trying to in the first place: continuity-blend faces resulting from trimmings. If not so, I guess one will have to do via lofting, as you showed us in another post)

Thanks, again :)

ViaCad doesn't give you a face2face blend. Concepts 3D does this sort of thing very well along with surface blends. It's surface blends are almost on par with Rhino and far, far superior than EIM ever was.

[WmH]

Thank you very much for your help: playing with your file the first thing I've realized I was misunderstanding is the kind of faces you were considering for blends. I thought you were pre-trimming the objects, carving them to produce pre-cut faces to be continuity-blended, not realizing you simply selected the entire sphere surface and the cylinder's cylindrical one, actually. It was a far more simple process than I thought.

Once I was aware of that, it was simply a matter of playing with the parameters, as you said.

(What now concerns me is if there is a way of succesfully doing what I was trying to in the first place: continuity-blend faces resulting from trimmings. If not so, I guess one will have to do via lofting, as you showed us in another post)

Thanks, again :)

No problem, easy to over complicate things. there is not really a perfect way to achieve blends with smooth (ie curve rate) continuity in ViaCAD, all the workarounds I have discovered are a fair amount of work and often leave less then perfect blends. The way to do continuous face blends is (as Paul mentioned) an upgrade to Concepts Unlimited (where it is easy)
I am tempted by concepts, but do full production/post (indie) so I have a staggering amount of software to buy and upgrade (as well as hardware) so i don't think until I have a specific need on a project that I will be upgrading to CU. But I am extremely pleased (perhaps even ecstatic ;-) with ViaCAD and still maintain that any EI users who do not already own Concepts should pick up a copy. Once you get out of the EIM groove it is a breeze to learn to use.

I think the VIACAD concept works extremely well, I would have never put the amount of time into learning a demo as I did into learning ViaCAD, simply because it was not a demo. I could see early on it was not stripped to the point of being useless and would be a usable app for me. I D/L'd the concepts demo a couple time but never put enough time into it to really "get it". Just like Elements which though it is 90-95% of photoshop also generates huge number of upgrades to the full blown package. It also cements adobe's place with hobbyists and beginners so there is always a fresh pool of users 90% trained to use pshop.

[PaulS2]

No problem, east to overcomplicate tings. there is not really a perfect way to achieve blends with smooth (ie curve rate) continuity in ViaCAD, all the workarounds I have discovered are a fair amount of work and often leave less then perfect blends. The way to do continuous face blends is (as Paul mentioned) an upgrade to Concepts Unlimited (where it is easy)
I am tempted by concepts, but do full production/post (indie) so I have a staggering amount of software to buy and upgrade (as well as hardware) so i don't think until I have a specific need on a project that I will be upgrading to CU. But I am extremely pleased (perhaps even ecstatic ;-) with ViaCAD and still maintain that any EI users who do not already own Concepts should pick up a copy. Once you get out of the EIM groove it is a breeze to learn to use.

I think the VIACAD concept works extremely well, I would have never put the amount of time into learning a demo as I did into learning ViaCAD, simply because it was not a demo. I could see early on it was not stripped to the point of being useless and would be a usable app for me. I D/L'd the concepts demo a couple time but never put enough time into it to really "get it". Just like Elements which though it is 90-95% of photoshop also generates huge number of upgrades to the full blown package. It also cements adobe's place with hobbyists and beginners so there is always a fresh pool of users 90% trained to use pshop.


Actually, Concepts 3D will give all of the surface and face blending tools and it is far cheaper than CU.

You sound exactly like me and the past demos of Concepts 3D. It was a demo so wasn't obligated to learn it and initially just couldn't get past the Logicursor (could have called it "illogical cursing!" :-)....paying a price, be it small, forced at least learning ViaCAD. I think their marketing is right on with this approach. Full-featured solids modeler for $99 with 90 day money back guarantee!...who can possibly loose?

[juanxer]

I've been long searching for an app that gives me the feel Form•Z did to me long time ago, around its 2.x version (those EI and Form•Z licenses were owned by the company I was working for. I bought my own EIAS Broadcast license, but had to do with other cheaper modelers until EIM and later the current modeler explosion). ViaCAD just gives me that feel again.

I think I'll stay on ViaCAD for a while before thinking of upgrading. Also, I have AMAPI and Shade to explore (e-Frontier did a superdiscount months ago for its forum readers), and I think I am beginning to get them (AMAPI is a very interesting beast, a NURBS+Poly surface-only modeler with an SDS-style GUI; Shade is a quirky bezier splines 3D modeler, sort of a 3D Freehand in the style of that old app, Vidi Presenter 3D). I have to test Import/Export among them all, as AMAPI's blends are so flexible (it gives you interactive curvature tension controls and such).

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.