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vi0lator2k
04-02-2007, 06:51 AM
I started workig on this few weeks ago, now i am stuck, and i am not happy with it yet. Feels empty to me.. Any opinion??

this is how it looks at moment
http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/5379/mp6yc5.jpg

and for curious people, this is original
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/6792/mp0so1.jpg

sketchling
04-02-2007, 09:19 AM
Hmmm... are you trying to do a matte painting or an illustration? A matte painting is the background for a film or some kind of moving element... the horse an rider would never be in a matte painting.

The origional image has far more realism..as its a photo, and what you have done is make it look smudged and like a painting... which would never make it into a matte painting in the real world. Sorry to be harsh, but its the truth. There are very few matte painter who do much painting... its mostly photo manipulation and grading. If you seriously want to do matte painting, then make that image look like night time before you even touch it with paint. Put an element in there from another photo and make it look like it belongs. or at least be careful not to make it look too much like a painting.

If you want to paint fantasy pictures, then use the mountains as REFERENCE and dont paint over them. try o paint from scratch and who knows, you might get good enough to paint photoreal eventually...but thas damn hard.

Good luck :) Keep going and you will get there.
p.s. one thing you will learn a lot from is taking a scene and trying to cover it with snow. Iv had to do that so many times.

vi0lator2k
04-02-2007, 10:25 AM
Well its suposed to be static matte painting, i never meant to use it for some animation or something in that direction, just something for me.
I have to agree with you that it looks too much like painting and preety much everything else you said. Will see if i can make it more photorealistic, but lost too much time on it...maybe should leave it and try something else. Thanks for advice.

leigh
04-03-2007, 10:57 PM
Well its suposed to be static matte painting, i never meant to use it for some animation or something in that direction, just something for me.

But then you seem to be misunderstanding what a matte painting is. This seems to be quite common around here too - I see many paintings here in this forum which aren't technically matte paintings.

A matte painting is a photorealistic backdrop/set extension used as an element within a visual effects composite. It is fundamentally different to a regular painting, which is what I'd consider your work here to be, in that a regular painting expresses an idea from an artist's mind, whereas a matte painting is an composite element with a specific purpose. As Sketchling pointed out, a matte painting wouldn't have a foreground character in it like that - it defeats the purpose.

Absinthe-Graphics
04-05-2007, 12:26 AM
@leigh and sketchling:

I think the use of the term mattepainting has changed. You define the term from its purpose and use in the movie industry. But it should be better defined by it´s use of techniques.

Mattepainitng in my understanding is a kind of enviromental (landscape / seascape / cityscape) digital painting with the use of different digital tools (photographs, painiting and 3d elements) to achive a unique kind of art.
This uniqueness comes from the combination of detail and sharpness, which only the use of photographic elements can provide, and the total control of image composition, only a painting can have (…but not a photo).

So although this art has originated from movie background painting, it should not be bound to this purpose.

…otherwise we would need again a new name for all those beautiful artworks, done by the technique of mattepainting but with a different purpose! These are not paintings in the traditional sense (paintings have absolutely no photgraphic elements ) and they are not photocollages either…so how to call them other than mattepaintings?

Artbot
04-05-2007, 06:17 PM
How about calling them "illustrations"?

There's no need to redefine what "matte painting" means when there are already perfectly good terms to describe images that are not matte paintings. Illustrations have a long history of incorporating painted elements, photos (either directly or traced or recontexualized in some way), even sculptural elements.

vi0lator2k
04-05-2007, 06:29 PM
Guys you are confusing me. Lets say i remove character from my matte-painting-illustration, cuz seems that, that is the element that puts my work most out of digital matte painting category. Is it then a digital matte painting? I think my experiment is just not enuff photorealistic.

In what cagteory go Atlantis competition winners? As much i could notice, there is alot of painting there. Are those illustrations? Do they fit in this part of the forums then?

By the way i like alot what guys made there, was one of the things that motivated me to try something like this.

leigh
04-05-2007, 08:13 PM
How about calling them "illustrations"?

There's no need to redefine what "matte painting" means when there are already perfectly good terms to describe images that are not matte paintings. Illustrations have a long history of incorporating painted elements, photos (either directly or traced or recontexualized in some way), even sculptural elements.

Quoted for agreement. The techniques for creating matte paintings may have evolved from the days when they were painted onto glass, but they nevertheless still serve the same purpose in the industry, especially when you consider how the word "matte" is used in the industry - the very word implies its specific purpose in a shot.

I think people are jumping onto this bandwagon without really realising what mattes are, and what they're used for. The majority of work I see in this forum are illustrations, not matte paintings.

Absinthe-Graphics
04-06-2007, 09:56 AM
I don´t agree that the term illustration fits the need!

«The aim of an illustration is to elucidate or decorate a story, poem or piece of textual information (such as a newspaper article), traditionally by providing a visual representation of something described in the text.»

So this is again something connected to the purpose of the art and not connected to the technique how it is done! But in my opinion this is the most important way for this definition.

When you post your artworks in the net galleries it is important to put them in a category and to describe or at least name the techniques you used in the creation process, especially if you mix photos with painting.
For this reason the term «mattepainting» is on the way to becoming a category synonym for a mixture of painting, 3D and photo-collage and this is not necessarily connected to the purpose of it´s use.

What is the main concern of a forum like this on mattepainting? It is about the techniques. How to get those fascinating landscapes done! So the people here are first of all interested in learning how to compose photographs, painting and 3d in the fascinating way the great matte-painters do it. But this doesn´t mean they all want to do backgrounds for movies.

@vi0lator2k:
Don´t get confused! :thumbsup:

You are in the correct forum, because there are no illustration forums who deal exclusively with the techniques you are looking for in this forum. Further it seems to me that you are not illustrating some story, poem etc. So your work is not an illustration! It is a fantasy image, done with mattepainting techniques and therefore just in the right place here to be discussed.

leigh
04-06-2007, 11:03 AM
For this reason the term «mattepainting» is on the way to becoming a category synonym for a mixture of painting, 3D and photo-collage and this is not necessarily connected to the purpose of it´s use.

Matte painting is not a technique, it is a product of work for a specific purpose. Did you not read my previous post? Do you even know what the term "matte" means and what it implies?

I am sorry to derail your thread like this, vi0lator2k. I won't post in here again.

vi0lator2k
04-06-2007, 11:08 AM
Matte painting is not a technique, it is a product of work for a specific purpose. Did you not read my previous post? Do you even know what the term "matte" means and what it implies?

I am sorry to derail your thread like this, vi0lator2k. I won't post in here again.

Not a problem, i learned some stuff now. Ill keep on my mind what everyone said here if i ever give a try again to matte paintings.

Absinthe-Graphics
04-06-2007, 11:12 AM
What about these mattepaintings from Raphael Lacoste?:

http://www.raphael-lacoste.com/Matte_Paintconcept/dossiers/matte_SITE/pages/gothic.htm
http://www.raphael-lacoste.com/Matte_Paintconcept/dossiers/matte_SITE/pages/Matte_Esperance1000.htm

and what about this one by Dylan Cole himself? On the Gnomon Workshop Matte Painting DVD !!??: :shrug:

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/img/screengrabs/dco03/dco03coverlg.jpg

Absinthe-Graphics
04-06-2007, 11:29 AM
@vi0lator2k: I am sorry for going away from your basic question as well!

@leigh: Yes ! I am totally aware of the origin of Mattepainting and I also understand your point of view very well.

But as I said: What we than need is a new category for this kind of digital artwork and along with it a new forum for these artists to learn and discuss the techniques mainly used in mattepainting.

This is because digital mattepainting encourages many people to work with it´s techniques even if they have different purpose for it. So there is need for a category like this.

However this is probably the wrong thread for this discussion.

Absinthe-Graphics
04-06-2007, 11:42 AM
@vi0lator2k: Image improvement:

A few suggestions:

- The right side of the image lacks detail and variety. It seems to be a bit too empty.
- What is the focus of the image? The city and island or the moon? I would place the moon and the clouds higher and add more details to the city. So the viewers eye can wander along a path from the rider via the city and up to the moon. Because the moon and clouds are too dominant at the moment this image exploration by the viewers eye is somehow interrupted.
- The city itself looks more like a modern downtown than a fantasy city, which someone would expect in conection with the horsemen. Try to get a more ancient look.
- The island with tower could be a bit larger or more dominant in another way.

Matellis
04-06-2007, 12:33 PM
hey Sadik , I am digging this image! I dont think you should leave it , just make some improvements , I see potential in it. Right now it feels a bit left heavy. I think you could balance it out with some nice tree detail on the right and a few scattered houses that wouldnt be directly in the city. But over all a great first try.

Now for the whole other topic going on here. I think most might seem like illustrations because most of us are still in the learning stage. I know me personally, I dont like to rely on photos 100% at all, so I am still working on my painting skills for my mattes which makes them seem more like illustrations. So there are some of us like me that still lack the skill for total realism. Also there are people like me who lack the luxery of having video plates and animation skills. So we add characters , birds and so on to give our mattes the story telling factor that the video plate would do. Also it helps with showing the scale for the scene we create.

Its a touchy subject really. I do not consider myself a matte painter but more of a background artist.


cheers :D

assistant pimp
04-06-2007, 07:58 PM
I am far from a pro, but I agree with Leigh in this instance. WHen I click a link regarding a Matte painting WIP I tend to wanna see something along these lines.
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=4310319&postcount=18

But instead I see what I would call a concept sketch or illustration. I see it so much I am now becoming used to it..lol. Not saying nothing bad, but it is just what I was used to. Something realistic that looks like it could have been a picture. So I started referring to them as photomanipulations.

You image looks pretty good. There are some gaps that I would fill with some details.

Absinthe-Graphics
04-07-2007, 10:02 AM
I agree with assistant pimp in some aspects. Just for not be misunderstood: I think that mattepainting should have a great deal of realistic touch to it! That is an essential part of it.

But I don´t agree that a mattepainting must not have a foreground object or be a complete art composition on its own.

Because it was said here that a mattepainting is just a background. It must not have a foreground and [it is fundamentally different to a regular painting, …, in that a regular painting expresses an idea from an artist's mind, whereas a matte painting is an composite element with a specific purpose /quote by leigh] in the industry.

Ex. :
Mattepainting and complete artwork on its own:

1. http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=137&t=477532

2. http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=137&t=424325

3. http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=137&t=465191


Mattepainting as background (beeing not a complete artwork on its own) :

4. http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=137&t=186873

5. http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=133&t=408866&highlight=mattepainting

sketchling
04-11-2007, 10:22 AM
Call it what you like dude... a matte painting is a matte painting and an illustration is an illustration. Trust me... I am a matte painter and a concept artist. I can do a concept for a matte painting but the final matte painting is a matte painting only because it functions as a n element in a moving shot. The term 'matte' applied to the opaque paint the origional matte painters painted on a glass sheet in front of camera... so the painting blended with the background through the camera lens. The final shots had people, but they were part of the film, not the matte painting.

Im gonna call it a day here, but I just have to say that if someone sent a showreel for matte painting work when it was obvious they didnt understand the technical purpose of a matte... it would look like they didnt know what they were doing. (ill bet you dylan cole would put those images foreward as concepts... not as part of a matte-painting reel.)

Absinthe-Graphics
04-11-2007, 12:35 PM
Ok! I give up! if someone sent a showreel for matte painting work when it was obvious they didnt understand the technical purpose of a matte... it would look like they didnt know what they were doing.
Here you are absolutely right!

So this means that many posted works to be discussed in this forum,–mainly because of learning the techniques of mixing photo and painting and image composition–, are in the wrong place here, and should better be discussed somewhere else.

Unfortunately I don´t know any other than mattepainting forums dealing so much and highly qualified with these techniques. :cry:

marcob
04-13-2007, 12:59 PM
As I'm not a matte painter, I'm a little bit confused too, as many DVD and tutorials about matte painting show just illustrations or sketches. If you go to mattepainting.org you can see realistic and painting-like uploads there. In my ignorance I see some points here. Matte painting is a technique to extend movie backgrounds (or foregrounds too), so I think people, animals and crowds are not a attribution of the matte painter, just the environment (birds and so to give the sense of scale). But I don't see the need of realism, as we can see a lot of matte painting credits in CG 3d movies (without any real shot). If I have a animated movie and I have to add mountains, clouds , trees or abuilding in the background is it not a matte painting??? As far as goes to the image posted, I see a lot of the same techniques I saw in others matte painting making of (from movies like Narnia, Harry Potter and LOTR) he used a photo to start and begin to change some elements. It is too blurry, yes, it needs more light to enhance some elements, yes. But, besides the horse and man, It could be used as a plate with some improvement. What says our moderator Jamesfx??? regards. Marco

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