After Effects CS3 Announced

[dwigfor]

Advanced Clone tool

Remove unwanted distractions like dust and scratches or replicate elements for a desired effect, such as filling a stadium with people. The Clone tool offers multiple presets and onion-skinning of the source frame.

Animated paint strokes

Animate individual paint strokes over time to change their size, position, or shape and to create write-on and write-off effects.

Eraser tool

Control whether the Eraser tool removes paint strokes only or paint strokes plus the underlying background footage.

Wacom tablet support

Use Wacom tablets for more precise control when painting in After Effects.

32-bit audio tools Real-time audio playback

Play back your audio in real time without having to render.

Auto-sampling support

Prepare and resample audio using sampling rates from 22kHz to 96kHz.

Stereo Mixer

Pan from the left speaker or channel to the right speaker or channel, or vice versa, with the Stereo Mixer.

Advanced audio effects

Remap audio over time with the Delay and Backwards audio effects. Adjust audio tone with Bass & Treble. Use Modulator, Parametric EQ, and High-Low Pass for precise professional control over 32-bit audio. Delay, Flange & Chorus, and tone generation allow you to stylize sound or generate sounds from scratch.

Audio Spectrum and Audio Waveform effects

Generate full-color visuals based on audio elements that animate dynamically along a frequency spectrum or that behave like an audio waveform.

Edit in Adobe Soundbooth

Send audio files to Adobe Soundbooth™ CS3 software for editing. Changes made in Soundbooth are automatically updated in After Effects.

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Maximize your time

Deliver your best results on schedule with a workflow that lets you work fast and stay focused.

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Timesaving tools http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/images/ae_brainstorm_285x200.jpg
Brainstorm

Brainstorm

Jump-start animations with Brainstorm, a new user interface that offers variations based on selected design and animation parameters. Choose which properties and effects you want to explore, and Brainstorm will propose animated variations.


Animation presets

Jump-start projects quickly with hundreds of customizable animation presets. Share your presets and download additional presets from Adobe Exchange on Adobe.com.

Project templates

Use included project templates for DVD motion menus and motion graphics backgrounds.

Adobe Clip Notes

Streamline the review and approval process. Render your work into an Adobe PDF file that enables anyone with Adobe Reader® software to make timecode-accurate comments. When you import the comments into After Effects, they appear as markers on the Timeline.

Helpful tools

Learn as you work with convenient Tool Tips and context-sensitive menus, as well as help from the Adobe website, third-party books and training videos, and an active user community. Get started quickly with professionally designed templates for DVD motion menus and animated backgrounds.

Enhanced performance Optimized multiprocessing

Take full advantage of multiprocessor and multicore systems for RAM previews and final renders. After Effects renders multiple frames simultaneously whenever possible.

Real-time, high-fidelity OpenGL support

Advanced OpenGL capabilities include support for blending modes as well as motion blur, anti-aliasing, track mattes, high-quality shadows and transparency, and accelerated rendering of common effects. Use OpenGL for accelerated final renders.

RAM previews

Preview compositions in real time and benefit from intelligent caching and the ability to define a region of interest for faster and longer RAM previews.

Disk caching

Dramatically enhance previewing and interactivity on large projects with highly efficient disk caching.

Render Queue

Use the powerful Render Queue to simultaneously render at multiple resolutions and file formats — even for mobile devices — or to batch render files. You can also create templates to apply common render and output settings.

Unmatched Adobe integration Photoshop CS3 Extended integration

Save 32-bit HDR and 16-bit color values in Photoshop files. Text remains editable, and layers, video layers, layer styles, blending modes, masks, transparency, and color profiles are all preserved when Photoshop files are imported as compositions. Use Photoshop paths as masks or animation paths.

Extensive layering options

Vastly expand the possibilities for instantly adding texture and shading to even the most basic layer. Animate style characteristics at will, going beyond what is possible in Photoshop.

3D compositions from Vanishing Point

Export Vanishing Point data from Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended, and then import the data into After Effects to automatically build a 3D composition from the 2D Photoshop image.

Photoshop file creation

Create a new Photoshop file from within your After Effects project. Photoshop automatically opens a blank file using composition settings — including title-safe and action-safe guides — ready for editing. Changes appear in After Effects when you save the file.

Adobe Illustrator CS3 integration

Copy vectors from Illustrator to use as After Effects masks or motion paths. Illustrator layers and blend modes are preserved, and vector shapes can be continuously rasterized (and output as compact SWF files), preserving smooth edge detail.

Tight integration with Adobe Flash CS3 Professional

Work more efficiently to create and edit animations for playback on Adobe Flash® Player software. Preserve vectors from animations created in After Effects for lean and clean delivery, and encode FLV files more easily. Import SWF files as vectors with alpha channels preserved and batch render FLV files with embedded cue points.

SWF files imported as vectors

Import SWF files as continuously rasterized vectors with the alpha channel preserved, allowing you to scale them without loss in quality.

FLV files batch rendered with cue points

Use markers to create cue points that can be added to your FLV output. Automatically convert any layer's keyframes to cue points to make it easier to trigger events in Adobe Flash based on motion or elements changing over time.

Adobe Premiere Pro project import

Save time and preserve project organization when working with Adobe Premiere® Pro projects. Preserve bins, edits, markers, keyframed effects, nested sequences, transitions, and more. Drag and drop or copy and paste clips from one application to the other.

Adobe Premiere Pro project export

Export an After Effects project as an Adobe Premiere Pro project, streamlining work that involves editing as well as motion graphics and effects.

Adobe Encore CS3 integration

Create elements such as motion menus and interactive buttons for your DVDs. Export movies from After Effects with markers that Adobe Encore® CS3 software reads as chapters.

File management with Adobe Bridge

Work more efficiently via a single interface to search and access your project files, preview and apply presets, run batch processes, and tag assets with XMP metadata.

Unified user interface

Work in an elegant and adaptable interface featuring workspace panels that dock and group for optimal organization, eliminating overlapping windows. Save custom workspaces, control UI brightness, and more.

Familiar Adobe look and feel

Leverage your knowledge of other Adobe products to get up to speed quickly. After Effects uses Adobe-standard tools, palettes, menus, and customizable keyboard shortcuts.

Adobe Help Center

Get answers quickly with the Adobe Help Center, which offers powerful search features and convenient topics. New LiveDocs enable users to add comments to every Help topic. The new help topic portals aggregate learning resources from within Adobe.com and from across the Adobe community.

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Design for tomorrow, today

Work with tools that evolve as fast as your craft, and deliver professional results in virtually every media type.

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Professional results for every media type Flexible frame rates and resolutions

Specify output frame rates and resolutions (up to 30,000x30,000 pixels) to meet international film and broadcast standards, including Cineon, HDTV, HDV, and more.

High-quality output

Simultaneously render at multiple resolutions and file formats or batch render files, either on a local machine or across a network. In addition, use the included presets to output movies for Sony PSP systems or Apple video iPods.

Video for mobile

Use new rendering options and preview in Adobe Device Central CS3 to help ensure your video will look great on an array of supported mobile devices.

Support for HDR image formats

Import and export HDR color images in Adobe Photoshop, OpenEXR, Radiance, and TIFF formats to preserve the full dynamic range of all footage.

Extensive support for industry-standard formats

Import and output files in QuickTime, FLV and SWF, AVI, MPEG-2, Windows Media (Windows® only), Photoshop (PSD), Camera Raw, OpenEXR, Cineon, SGI, TIFF, TGA, IFF, JPEG, ElectricImage, PDF, MP3, WAV, and AIFF formats.

Universal binary and Windows Vista support

Choose your platform. Specific enhancements made to After Effects support both Mac and Windows platforms, including WIndows Vista™ (see system requirements (http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/systemreqs/)).

Color accuracy Complete color management workflow

Enable color management simply by selecting a Project Working Space. Doing so maintains the color accuracy of imported files as they are displayed and rendered and allows you to preview how footage will look on other devices.

Universal standard for color management

Like Photoshop, After Effects uses the open ICC color management system to help ensure universal adoption and support among all manufacturers. Photoshop revolutionized color management in the print industry, and After Effects is now ready to lead a similar transformation in the video and film industry.

Automatic color profile import

Files with embedded or standardized color profiles are automatically interpreted upon import. Profiles can also be set (or changed) via Interpret Footage. Color spaces from HD and SD video formats are interpreted automatically.

Color management display

Preview color accurately and simulate how final output will appear in a different medium, whether on a broadcast monitor or projected via a popular film stock.

Color-managed output

Convert color appropriately for a specific output format (including standard SD and HD formats). ICC information can also be embedded in the output if the format supports it.

Photoshop interoperability

Use common practices and settings for users of both Photoshop and After Effects, which share color management workflows. CMYK files can be imported and are color managed.

Support for 32-bit linear floating point

Files created with 32-bit linear light color spaces, such as 32-bit PSD, TIFF, or EXR, composite accurately in a 32-bit linear high dynamic range (HDR) project workspace. Any output profile can be linearized for 32-bit HDR.

Flexible media management Cross-platform workflows

Easily share projects and files across Windows and Macintosh platforms.

Resolution independence

Mix multiple file resolutions from small thumbnails up to 30,000x30,000-pixel frames.

Post-render actions and Proxy creation

Use post-render actions to streamline back-end production tasks, such as creating proxies or replacing project footage with output from the Render Queue.

Convenient file management

Use commands such as Find, Reveal, Reduce Project, and Collect Files to manage files easily.

Flowchart view

View a flowchart of a composition or project to see how it's organized and what footage, layers, and effects are used.

Integrated Script Editor Script-editing palettes

Organize and edit scripts using numbered lines, user-defined text formatting, and colored text.

Debug menu

Clearly isolate specific functions and statements in complex scripts by interactively managing breakpoints.

Profiling

Profile individual functions or lines within scripts for individual timing and hit-count information to understand how and when individual parts of the scripts are called.

Integrated palette-based interface

Instantly access all scripts in the Scripts menu, which also includes a JavaScript Console and Call Stack, Breakpoints, and Data Browser palettes.

Command-line automation via Expressions and Scripting Keyframeless creation of animations

Define expressions that link the behavior of one layer property to that of another on any layer in the composition. Use behavior presets to create Wiggles, Bounces, Drifts, Flashes, and more without setting keyframes. New in After Effects Professional CS3, you can sample actual pixel values to drive effects.

Intuitive pick whip interface

Link properties easily and intuitively with the pick whip interface.

Standard syntax

Use standard JavaScript to modify Expressions, or create your own from scratch.

Menu of preset commands

Reduce keystrokes and eliminate the need to memorize code with an extensive library of functions and commands.

http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/features/allfeatures/

[Darth Mole]

And a full £250 (UK) for the privilege when updating from AE7.0!!

(NOTE: That enormous list of features includes everything currently in AE7.)

[ragecg]

Darnit! Still no native true 3d text tool:(

Fusion has it, Inferno has it, ....... don't get me wrong, my team and I will be upgrading in a heartbeat, but if Adobe added true 3d text options, that would be awesome.

And by awesome, I mean totaly sweet.

[communist]

Hmm the new features sound interesting but overall I get the feeling its all about more "tight integration", "fatten up the name".. ie to much smoke and mirrors.

Well maybe next time.

[Mylenium]

Darnit! Still no native true 3d text tool:(

Fusion has it, Inferno has it, ....... don't get me wrong, my team and I will be upgrading in a heartbeat, but if Adobe added true 3d text options, that would be awesome.

And by awesome, I mean totaly sweet.

Well, seriously: Fusion's text tools are complete crap from a typographical point of view and them being able to work in 3D and having extrusions and bevels is no saving grace. That aside, there are ways to get 3D text in AE even now by means of Invigorator and while I agree that it's still a pain, AE is not entirely left out in the rain. Other than that you are forgetting that AE itself has no 3D space that can work with real geometry. It will require a major change under the hood and those things take time.

Mylenium

[Droolz]

I was at the cs3 launch in london last night and had an 'interesting' chat with the dude that was demoing AE. I talked to him about how he felt they had improved the program in relation to quite hardcore compositing [lots of layers, 32bpc], the answer was pretty much zero - the flow chart view will never be anything more that an after thought, he dosen't think many effects have gone to true 32bit, there will be some speed increases as they have finally gone multithreaded [he said the same as nucleo pro - not sure if they've just outright bought this and integrated it or not].
In not so many words he tyold me this wasn't really after effects job, and that this market was so small he doubt it would ever have much effort put into it :shrug:
This does yield the akward question - what's the alternative? We're a small studio, fusion / nuke are what, about 5k each? Shake's dead. Really feel like the market needs a decent mid price competitor to land right about now.. here's hoping that the foundry do something radical with nuke...

[dwigfor]

(First part of AE Features (copyied from my first message) - includes new and old features...)


Complete feature list

Innovate visually (http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/features/allfeatures/#kmhead1)
Maximize your time (http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/features/allfeatures/#kmhead2)
Design for tomorrow, today (http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/features/allfeatures/#kmhead3)
Printable overview (PDF, 242k) (http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/pdfs/printable_overview.pdf)

Innovate visually

Enjoy the freedom of intuitive, responsive controls and limitless possibilities for creating motion graphics and effects.

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32-bit 2D and 3D compositing and animation Flexible 8-, 16-, and 32-bit color modes

Start a composition in 8-bit color mode, and then finalize and output it to 16-bit or 32-bit color for optimal quality. Produce work that is film- and HDTV-ready using the broader range of colors available in 16- and 32-bit color modes.

GPU acceleration

Mix and match 2D and 3D layers in a single composition and design in real time using OpenGL acceleration. OpenGL 2.0 capabilities include blend modes, 2D motion blur, common effects, shadows, transparency, and more.

Cameras and lights for 3D compositions

Create and animate multiple cameras and lights. Specify a point of interest, produce soft shadows, and simulate different types of lights to add depth.

3D compositions from Vanishing Point

Export Vanishing Point data from Adobe® Photoshop® CS3 Extended software, and then import the data into Adobe After Effects® to automatically build a 3D composition from the 2D Photoshop image.

Multiple views and workspaces

See how layers interact in space and manipulate a composition from multiple perspectives using multiple views. Use predefined workspaces or create your own to contextually streamline your workflow.

Adaptive motion blur

Automatically adjust motion blur based on the speed of the layer to provide higher quality output for fast-moving objects and high-quality and faster rendering for slow-moving objects.

Projection layers and colored shadows

Project light through a layer to create colored shadows, stained-glass effects, and the look of projected slides.

Quick arrangement of multiple layers

Quickly arrange multiple layers in time with the Sequence Layers keyframe assistant, and arrange layers in space with the Align and Distribute tools.

Adjustment layers

Create adjustment layers similar to those in Photoshop to apply effects to any layers that appear below them.

Parenting

Speed up production by defining a parent-child relationship between layers so that the child layer inherits all transformations applied to the parent.

Built-in creative tools and templates

Produce cool animations from scratch right in After Effects by creating layers, adding masks, and applying effects. Or use the included project templates to quickly create DVD motion menus, animated backgrounds, and more.

Camera data

Import 3D camera and null animation data in the Alias Maya (MA) format, directly from Maya or from any 3D tracking software that can export MA files, such as 2d3's boujou.

Text and vector graphics creation and animation Intuitive text creation

Create text using Adobe-standard tools for typing, editing, and formatting text, and easily edit text created in Photoshop. Mix and match fonts and other attributes on a layer.

Versatile text animation

Animate text along paths, transform or displace words or lines of text over time, set inter-character blending modes, randomize the order in which characters animate, blur or wiggle your text, and more.

Text animation presets

Save animation time by instantly applying more than 250 professionally designed, fully editable text animation presets, or create and save your own. Use Adobe Bridge CS3 to conveniently preview and apply presets.

http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/images/ae_3d_type_285x200.jpg
Per-character 3D text animation

Per-character 3D text animation

Explore new text animation possibilities by making individual characters in your text — or an entire phrase — move and rotate in 3D space.


Shape Layers

Easily create and animate vector graphics with new Shape Layers. Add and animate strokes, fills, gradients, and vector effects. You can convert text into shapes and animate them just like any other shape type.

Web-ready text animations

Export animated text as vector-based SWF files to create innovative, web-friendly animations.

Extensive visual effects Comprehensive effects toolkit

Use a broad selection of included effects to change the appearance of footage or generate entirely new elements. Create unique looks from scratch or by using more than 100 customizable effects presets.

Effects & Presets palette

Organize effects the way you like and quickly access them in the Effects & Presets palette. Save, apply, and share animation presets with specific settings and animated properties.

Cycore FX

Add smoke and sparks using Particle World, create blazing ray-of-light transitions using Light Burst and Light Sweep, and apply more than 60 other bundled effects from Cycore.

Creative blur effects

Re-create the effect of a unfocused camera lens easily and realistically with Lens Blur, and use Smart Blur to create soft color effects without destroying fine detail. Other blur effects include Directional Blur, Box Blur, and Gaussian Blur.

Flexible distortion effects

Warp and distort the full frame of your footage — as well as selected areas — in specific, realistic ways with effects like Mesh Warp, Bezier Warp, and Displacement Map. Paint distortions directly onto imagery with Liquify. Distort footage using Mirror, Ripple, Bulge, and other effects.

Fractal Noise

Create textures and organic elements with Fractal Noise, which is perfect for simulating caustics, clouds, lava, flowing water, and gas. Use included presets to create eye-catching animated backgrounds.

Grain management tools

Add, remove, or match grain artifacts from footage automatically or manually. Specify the characteristics of grain on all three individual color channels for a perfect match.

Reshape

Morph one defined shape in a layer into another shape on the same layer, distorting the image itself to fit the shape of the new area.

Scribble

Achieve a loose, hand-drawn look instantly by applying Scribble to a layer.

Corner Pin

Skew the corners of an image to simulate the perspective of a plane in 3D space. Use the tracker to create animated corner pin data automatically, matching scene features precisely.

3D effects

Use 3D Channel Effects to import 3D channel image files saved in RLA, RPF, Softimage PIC/ZPIC, and Electric Image EI/EIZ formats. Use Depth of Field to simulate the focal effects of camera depth of field, and use Fog 3D to simulate volumetric haze in a source 3D image file.

Glow

Instantly brighten or diffuse the bright areas of an image to create a glowing halo or other lighting effect, suitable for stylized emphasis of featured elements.

Advanced Lighting

Create realistic electrical arcs with variety and precision.

Particle Playground

Simulate explosions, flocks of birds, swarms of bees, and more using a powerful particle system. Even text layers can be a particle.

Scatter

Generate sizzle around borders by adding dancing, dissolve-style animated pixel scatter to the inside and outside of masked areas of a layer.

Expandable effects toolkit

Expand your creative range in Adobe After Effects with hundreds of compatible third-party effects plug-ins, available separately.

Superb color correction Comprehensive color correction

Manage color correction with a variety of tools, including new Tritone Brightness & Contrast, Channel Mixer, Color Balance, Levels, Tint, Hue/Saturation, and more.

Color Finesse

Take advantage of Color Finesse™ from Synthetic Aperture, a full-featured color-correction environment that contains high-end telecine-style correction tools.

Automatic adjustments

Enhance the contrast and tone of footage over time with Photoshop style Auto Color, Auto Contrast, and Auto Levels controls.

Shadow/Highlight effect

Automate color correction over time while preserving the shadows and highlights within individual frames.

Curves controls

Adjust the tonal range of an image with complete control, such as decreasing blues in the shadows and increasing them in bright areas. You can import curve settings from Photoshop as well.

Color Stabilizer

Sample the exposure of a single reference frame and adjust the exposure of all other frames to match it.

Graph Editor Value and Speed graphs

Edit Value and Speed graphs in the Graph Editor, or let After Effects choose the one most appropriate for the animated property.

http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/images/ae_graph_edit_285x200.jpg
Value graphs for spatial properties

Value graphs for spatial properties

See spatial properties such as Position represented with value graphs on individual channels, each with a unique color.


One-button eases

Add eases in and out of curves with a single click.

Free transform

Scale and offset keyframes in the Graph Editor with free-transform features, just as you would scale or offset vertices on a mask.

Snapping keyframes

Snap keyframes to interesting points as you drag them horizontally or vertically around the Graph Editor.

Scalable view

Freely zoom and pan around the Graph Editor with the Zoom tool, Hand tool, or your mouse scroll wheel, using modifier keys for additional controls. Automatically fit all graphs to the current view with a single click.

Powerful masking and keying tools for video transparency Unlimited masks

Control which parts of a 2D or 3D layer are visible by adding and animating an unlimited number of masks on any layer.

Mask animations

Stroke, feather, transform, animate, and apply motion blur to masks over time.

RotoBezier masks

RotoBeziers simplify repetitive tasks by reducing the number of control points you have to think about.

Imported masks

Import Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator® paths as masks.

Mask auto-tracing

Quickly turn any channel, including alpha channels, into a vector-based mask, and quickly create animated masks.

Masks from text

Turn After Effects text into masks using the Create Outlines command.

Smart Mask Interpolation

Replicate natural motion by taking control of mask transitions.

http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/images/ae_screen_285x200.jpg
Keylight

Keylight

Create subtle, elegant mattes of reflections, semitransparent areas, and hair with this Academy Award-winning keyer from The Foundry. Spill suppression, color correction, and edge refinement help perfect the result.


Track mattes

Turn any grayscale image, movie, or animated text or graphic into an alpha or luma track matte to control what's visible on another layer.

Color Range

Quickly eliminate all the pixels on a layer that are similar to a color you've specified. For example, cut out a greenscreen background in one step by specifying that color.

Extract and Linear Color keys

Easily create high-contrast mattes with subtle edge thresholds using these keys to isolate and knock out a single shade or range of intensity.

Color Difference Key

Replicate the method used to key color footage on many landmark films. The Color Difference Key weights the dominant color being keyed against the other two primary colors.

Spill Suppressor

Remove unwanted color spill from footage quickly and easily.

Difference Matte

Compare foreground information in a scene against a precisely matched, static background "clean plate," leaving only the pixels that are different.

Inner/Outer Key

Derive the key from border pixels that you select by creating a rough mask around the edges of the object, to help in difficult keying situations.

Matte Choker and Simple Choker

Spread or choke the selection area of any alpha channel with a subpixel level of control.

Powerful motion controls http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/images/ae_puppet_285x200.jpg
Puppet tool

Puppet tool

This new, fast, and intuitive animation tool lets you squash and stretch images or text to bring it to life as an animated character. Use Motion Sketch to record the position and speed of your puppet movements, the Starch tool to stiffen areas of the character, and the Overlap tool to control the depth of elements of your puppet.


Timewarp

Slow down and speed up footage with smooth, crisp results and minimal artifacts. Use Timewarp to analyze pixel motion and create more accurate in-between frames.

Time remapping and frame blending

Produce effects such as variable slow motion and backward playback using two types of frame blending: Frame Mix and Pixel Motion.

Motion Sketch and Smoother

Quickly draw an animation path and set its velocity with Motion Sketch. Then fine-tune the shape and speed of the path with the Smoother.

Motion Tracker

Precisely match the motion of source footage using the fast, accurate Motion Tracker. Use as many points as you like or standard one-, two-, and four-point settings to track x and y position, rotation, and scale.

Motion Stabilizer

Eliminate unwanted motion using the Motion Stabilizer, which can give handheld video shots the look of a locked-off shot.

Wiggler

Apply smooth or jagged changes to color, motion, or other effects over time with the Wiggler.

Exponential Scale tool

Create natural-looking zoom effects by making linear changes of scale exponential.

Time Displacement

Mix different portions of source footage creatively using the luminance of one layer to control the timing of individual pixels in another layer.

Nondestructive vector painting Photoshop style brushes

Work with brushes similar to the ones in Photoshop. Customize brushes to control size, spacing, and angle, and save them for ongoing use.

[communist]

Hmm ok.. could you now stop posting endless, pointless and redundand information that serves nor real purpose than to be annoying? Thank you.

If one really wants to know all the features it would be more convenient to check Adobe's website (or alternatively check the trial version of v7).

[Darth Mole]

Amen to that! Why bother repeating it again!? Why not just post a bloody link?

Anyway - back to my point; expensive upgrade - not much to get excited about, let alone spend £250?

[dwigfor]

My apologies.. At least when the thread goes multiple pages, it won't have that huge post at the top of all the pages...


Anyways - Review of After Effects CS3 - Beta is due April 16th.

http://creativemac.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=116205 (http://creativemac.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=116205)

[Droolz]

.. and it also totally cains anyones previously made points... mine for example - I was told specifically that adobe are not interestined in supporting the compositing market... personally I find that a little bit too much of a bitter pill to swallow.. point is, what's the alternative at this price range?

[beenyweenies]

I was told specifically that adobe are not interestined in supporting the compositing market... personally I find that a little bit too much of a bitter pill to swallow.. point is, what's the alternative at this price range?

Not to shoot down your point, but this may or may not be true. Just because one person said it who is demoing the product at a launch party (read: NOT an executive or official spokesperson) does NOT make it so. Employees love to talk like they know what's going on, but the executives and product managers are the only ones I would EVER trust when it comes to this type of information.

Their inclusion of Keylight, 32 bit support and many other features directly contradict this person's statements. Another consideration is that half of AE's market is compositing (whether they like it or not) so why would they actively move away from that? Many large VFX houses are using AE for film compositing, and the majority of AE's beta test shops and industry consultants are visual effects related, not motion graphics.

Adobe is smart, and given that Shake is dead they surely know they are the only cost-effective compositing app available and will surely capitalize on that.

[berniebernie]

so no IK tool for animation, and no folders in the timeline ?

[MrBrick]

Some cool advancements.

I've been meaning to actually pick up AE- so now I know to wait for release.

[beenyweenies]

no folders in the timeline ?

This is a no-brainer feature that really, really needs to make its way from Photoshop to After Effects. Subcomping works, but as an organizational tool it is NOT ideal.

[Mylenium]

This is a no-brainer feature that really, really needs to make its way from Photoshop to After Effects.

Umm, no. It would directly affect the rendering pipeline (which works quite differently from what you have in PS), so it's far from a no-brainer. Sorry to say so, but anyone thinking there can be a quick and easy solution to this is just plain wrong. As a short-term solution at best there could be a way to expose sub-comps in a hierarchical way inside the main layer, but they'd still have to exist as separate comps instread of being just "ganged layers".

Mylenium

[Droolz]

Their inclusion of Keylight, 32 bit support and many other features directly contradict this person's statements. Another consideration is that half of AE's market is compositing (whether they like it or not) so why would they actively move away from that?

This is very true, and I realise that the one persons opinions to not represrent the global direction of the product. However the options that you talk about are not new features, and from what I was told (and I'll be glad to be disproved, as I am actually a big fan of the software, much to the studios horror) there hasn't been any real improvements to the 32bpc stuff - i.e. no more of the effects have been ported, no tonemapper, there is a new curves control but they couldn't say whether you could specify a range etc.

and the majority of AE's beta test shops and industry consultants are visual effects related, not motion graphics.

Just out of curiosty, how do you know this? Nearly *all* design places will have a copy of AFX kicking about, this userbase massively outweighs the compositing industry..

[AAAron]

Don´t forget there are a lot of "somewhere in between" in the studios out there, alot of what you call design places do heavy compositing, with a lot of keying, grading and compositing 3d renders but not for feature films.

[Mylenium]

...there hasn't been any real improvements to the 32bpc stuff - i.e. no more of the effects have been ported, no tonemapper, there is a new curves control but they couldn't say whether you could specify a range etc.

Umm, where did you hear that rubbish? From a competitor who wants you to sell you - erm - another copy of Fusion? *lol* Sorry, but's that complete nonsense. There is a 32 bpc tone mapper and various other effects (where it makes sense) render now in 32 bpc as well as a few additional effects are hardware accelerated.


Just out of curiosty, how do you know this? Nearly *all* design places will have a copy of AFX kicking about, this userbase massively outweighs the compositing industry..

Exactly. Apples and oranges - how do you compare a few thousand licenses of Fusion to several hundreds of thousdands of AE?

Mylenium

[Droolz]

Umm, where did you hear that rubbish?

Hey Dude, don't shoot the messenger - I heard that 'rubbish' from the guy demoing AFX cs3 at the cs3 launch party in london, his colleague was also with him and sagely nodded and piped in. I haven't got it yet but if what you say is true he gave me some heartily bad advice, amazing considering you'd really think they'd get the person who is demoing that specific app to know what the're talking about.

[Mylenium]

...and the majority of AE's beta test shops and industry consultants are visual effects related, not motion graphics.

I originally missed it, but let me add some comments.

Thank you. I knew my comapny where I currently work was one of those high-profile Hollywoodian shops that overcharge their clients for hitting the Enter key. *lol*

Na, sorry, You are seeing this just as wrongly as the others. There is no bias or tendency in the selection of Beta testers as there is no limit to where AE and other Adobe apps are used. You are painting your picture only in black and white and miss the 90% of greys inbetween. Pretty much every company I know has a copy of AE somewhere. It may be an old version or just a barren Standard version, but from web designer to concept artist to on-air graphics designer to filmmaker and so on there's every kind of person using it. I cannot even count the bazillion of small shops in our area that serve several different markets, offering many things on an as-needed basis (or muddling thru, if you wanna use that word) and AE is part of their arsenal.

Mylenium

[Mylenium]

...amazing considering you'd really think they'd get the person who is demoing that specific app to know what the're talking about.

Usually not. Outside the US those are often people only hired locally for such a gig and they sometimes only get to see the good stuff a few hours before the actual show ;o). Anyway, no rudeness intended.

Mylenium

[beenyweenies]

Umm, no. It would directly affect the rendering pipeline (which works quite differently from what you have in PS), so it's far from a no-brainer.

I would guess that being able to visually organize your layers into folders could/should have *no* effect on the rendering pipeline. To be clear, I am only talking about using folders to visually organize layers (similar to how it's used in Flash), not to alter the processing order or provide additional transform nodes, such as subcomps do. If they can't figure that out, then the AE code base is much more fragile than I suspected.

Just out of curiosty, how do you know this? Nearly *all* design places will have a copy of AFX kicking about, this userbase massively outweighs the compositing industry..

Sure there are graphic design companies that have AE "kicking about," but that lack of serious use also makes them much less of a target for feature development (I can see the headline - "AE CS3, featuring new specialized features for the occasional hobbyist user who rarely upgrades due to lack of use.") Either way, I don't think there is much dispute that the two key markets for AE is motion design and compositing. It is, after all, billed as a "Compositing Application."

It should also be mentioned that while there are many more design houses with After Effects, they typically buy far fewer licenses than compositing shops that use AE. It is quite common for the AE-based vfx houses to have 20-100 compositors working on AE at any given time, while the average design house rarely has more than 10 After Effects artists working at a time, even in larger firms. Needless to say these observations are based on my own experience and in the U.S. market only. It may be different where you live.

One final point on this is that Shake is all but dead. This leaves After Effects as the single app in the sub-$5K price range capable of doing feature-film quality visual effects and compositing. Why would Adobe throw that very sizeable market opportunity away? Maybe the demo artist in London was displeased with the lack of major developments in the compositing side of CS3, but that isn't necessarily a sign of market retraction by Adobe.

[beenyweenies]

My opinion is that this release of After Effects IS a bit premature, and was meant to serve three main purposes:

1. Get a universal binary version to market for mac users

2. Unify the interfaces and enhance interoperability of all Adobe products

3. MOST IMPORTANT - Release new versions of all Adobe products at once, and wipe the board clean of all older product versions. Notice that you can't even get CS2 or v7.0 products from Adobe anymore, even though CS3 won't be out for awhile. The Full Version AND Upgrade pricing is now higher on virtually ALL of the new apps, and you have to have a much newer version of many apps to even upgrade (Illustrator 9.0 users are hosed).

This is very much a financial move for Adobe, and a way to charge more for their existing product line while forcing many users to upgrade despite the lack of significant new features. Can you tell I'm not exactly thrilled about it?

[Mylenium]

I would guess that being able to visually organize your layers into folders could/should have *no* effect on the rendering pipeline. To be clear, I am only talking about using folders to visually organize layers (similar to how it's used in Flash), not to alter the processing order or provide additional transform nodes, such as subcomps do. If they can't figure that out, then the AE code base is much more fragile than I suspected.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Even in such a scenario (as represented by Shape layers for instance), the stacking and nesting order matters and affects how each layer is rendered on top of the other. This get's particularly funky when you have multiple strokes, fills etc., each of which can have their own blend modes. Not sure how one could add some implicit logic that does not require to manually re-arrange layers and switch their options.

Mylenium

[beenyweenies]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Even in such a scenario (as represented by Shape layers for instance), the stacking and nesting order matters and affects how each layer is rendered on top of the other. This get's particularly funky when you have multiple strokes, fills etc., each of which can have their own blend modes. Not sure how one could add some implicit logic that does not require to manually re-arrange layers and switch their options.

Mylenium

Let's say I have a composition with 40 or more layers (not unheard of at all). Let's also say that 10 of those layers are similar in nature or part of a group (for example all of my text overlays). To clean up my timeline I can subcomp them, but unless there's an explicit reason to do this, it can cause the project folder to get overly complex and slow workflow hopping between comps to make changes. It also makes timing individual layers more difficult.
If I could simply create a timeline folder and drop these elements into it, this cleans up my timeline and makes it easier to do edits to those text elements without bouncing between comps. Obviously changing the stacking order of the elements would change the processing order and may have an effect on the result, but that's not what I'm getting at at all. Not looking for a way to sidestep the processing order, just a way to organize besides subcomps.

This folder-based organizational structure within Photoshop has made design in that program dramatically easier, and promotes good organizational skills, which is crucial when multiple artists need to handle the same file. When you get down to it, virtually all layer-dependent design apps have folders.

Do you truly not see the value in this, or are you just being a professional contrarian? ;)

[superblack]

i do agree that "traditional" grouping would just not work in AE, or being to difficult to implement. but they definitely HAVE TO come up with something that works like it. waiting for this for too long ...

e.g. linking layers together, so if you move one layer all linked ones also move
selecting one layer of a "group" selects all
shy one layer, and all become invisible
store a selction of layers
and so on...

maybe some sort of a "group layer" which transfers these attributes to the whole group, or something like the new layer concept in C4D ...


sascha

[Mylenium]

Do you truly not see the value in this, or are you just being a professional contrarian? ;)

No, absolutely not. I'm not trying to ride your butt and give you a hard time, though personally I'm absolutely not for introducing another redundant organizational structure. Anyway, too complex to talk about all those annoying details and there's little either of us can do - Adobe will decide if this has any relevance and priority for them in some future release.

Mylenium

[Khalor]

e.g. linking layers together, so if you move one layer all linked ones also move

It's called 'Parenting', and it's been around since AE version 5.0


maybe some sort of a "group layer" which transfers these attributes to the whole group, or something like the new layer concept in C4D ...

Adjustment layers. Admittedly annoying if you want to apply these attributes/effects to a block of layers in the middle of a comp, and can't reorder them to the bottom, but even so.

[superblack]

It's called 'Parenting', and it's been around since AE version 5.0


Adjustment layers. Admittedly annoying if you want to apply these attributes/effects to a block of layers in the middle of a comp, and can't reorder them to the bottom, but even so.

what i meant by "linking" is, link any movement of the layer in the timeline.
and by transfering attributes to linked layers i mean stuff like "visibility" "shy" "solo".

of course this can be done with assigned colours and "select label group" and a few clicks, but some kind of master layer would give some sort of folder functionality.

sascha

[beenyweenies]

Well clearly there are many different opinions on the issue of organization within AE, but I will stick to my assertion that simply adding layers to a folder would not in any way impact render order or cause any other problems, provided you weren't trying to re-order the layers within that folder.

It just seems to me that since the advent of the subcomposition, AE's programmers haven't given much if any thought at all to project/timeline organization. For many people, this may not be an issue. But I find myself doing increasingly complex jobs involving hundreds of layers, and the lack of organizational tools is really starting to cost my studio valuable time. Even subcomping doesn't help because then you just end up with dozens of comps that are equally unweildy for your fellow artists to have to weed through.

[thethule]

Well clearly there are many different opinions on the issue of organization within AE, but I will stick to my assertion that simply adding layers to a folder would not in any way impact render order or cause any other problems, provided you weren't trying to re-order the layers within that folder.

It just seems to me that since the advent of the subcomposition, AE's programmers haven't given much if any thought at all to project/timeline organization. For many people, this may not be an issue. But I find myself doing increasingly complex jobs involving hundreds of layers, and the lack of organizational tools is really starting to cost my studio valuable time. Even subcomping doesn't help because then you just end up with dozens of comps that are equally unweildy for your fellow artists to have to weed through.


I competely agree and i can't fathom how anyone can't see that. I also routinely work with over a hundred layers and i dont want to bl**dy sub comp everything. What i want and i really can't understand why it's not included still is a way to create folders on my timeline. NOT to sub comp anything on the timline, just to organise things a bit neater. A VISUAL origaniser. It's not rocket science and it doesnt have to affect the way AE calculates anything. To call it a "redundant organisation tool" or whatever you did Mylenium, is a bit silly really.

You obviously are under contract to only say good things about AE ;)



Marc

[Mylenium]

NOT to sub comp anything on the timline, just to organise things a bit neater. A VISUAL origaniser. It's not rocket science and it doesnt have to affect the way AE calculates anything.


Well clearly there are many different opinions on the issue of organization within AE, but I will stick to my assertion that simply adding layers to a folder would not in any way impact render order or cause any other problems, provided you weren't trying to re-order the layers within that folder.

It just seems to me that since the advent of the subcomposition, AE's programmers haven't given much if any thought at all to project/timeline organization. For many people, this may not be an issue. But I find myself doing increasingly complex jobs involving hundreds of layers, and the lack of organizational tools is really starting to cost my studio valuable time. Even subcomping doesn't help because then you just end up with dozens of comps that are equally unweildy for your fellow artists to have to weed through.

Na, sorry, you are both turning a blind eye to things such as operator inheritance. Even if you don't figure in blendmodes, quality settings, continuous rasterization and stacking order (which are relevent for the rendering pipeline), you are completely forgetting about the other layer switches. You still need to define behaviors for the shy guy, solo switches, effects toggles etc. Try to consider this: would the prefered behavior for shying a master layer be to also shy all sub-layers? Would soloing a layer only render the master layer or also the sub-layers? How behave layers within layers? There's still a major number of other thinkable combinations and unless those not-so-trivial issues have been solved, timeline folders would be pointless and you'd still be stuck with many of the problems you both claim you have on your complex projects.

To call it a "redundant organisation tool" or whatever you did Mylenium, is a bit silly really.

No, it's not. Last time I looked there were about 5 different ways to cycle thru comps using shortcuts. If you don't have a handle on that, then I can't help you.

And I believe actually this is the way bigger problem: Assuming we had timeline folders, you still wouldn't necessarily have a better way of navigating them. Twirling them up and down would be just as time-consuming and aggravating after a while.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying things could not be approached in a different way, but you are looking for a solution that is unsuitable to the specific problem.

You obviously are under contract to only say good things about AE ;)

You wish! You are just plain wrong about that. If you dig out older posts, you can certainly see open criticsim of AE on my part. I'm only willing to admit that, since I do live and breathe by AE, I'm often willing to overlook certain quirkks and weaknesses, but as I said above, I don't consider the lack of certain organizational structures such a thing even if I try to objectively gauge the effort required to implement it agains what little benefit it may bring on some projects.

Mylenium

[ragecg]

I guess it would be asking Adobe too much at this moment to just scrap the layers, and give AE a procedural node-based flow?

hehe... sry, just wishfull thinking:)

That would be awesome tho......

[beenyweenies]

Na, sorry, you are both turning a blind eye to things such as operator inheritance. Even if you don't figure in blendmodes, quality settings, continuous rasterization and stacking order (which are relevent for the rendering pipeline), you are completely forgetting about the other layer switches. You still need to define behaviors for the shy guy, solo switches, effects toggles etc.
Mylenium

I guess the biggest difference in our thinking on this is that I don't see folders as having anything to do, whatsoever, with render order. Your comments seem to indicate that you don't see any way to seperate the two. But I simply refuse to believe that clumping a few layers together visually into a folder would change anything, and I further refuse to believe that even if that were the case, Adobe doesn't have good enough programmers to figure it out.
In my "fantasy" folders feature, ANY changes made to layers blend mode, shy state, order etc. would behave exactly as it does now. The folders would merely be a visual tool that aren't even computationally relevant to AE's inner workings, something that is effectively tossed out at render time and every layer is processed as it is now. After Effects doesn't think about your panel layout or color scheme when it computes your files, so why couldn't it have a folder feature that is ignored at render time as well?

[Mylenium]

I guess the biggest difference in our thinking on this is that I don't see folders as having anything to do, whatsoever, with render order. Your comments seem to indicate that you don't see any way to seperate the two. But I simply refuse to believe that clumping a few layers together visually into a folder would change anything, and I further refuse to believe that even if that were the case, Adobe doesn't have good enough programmers to figure it out.
In my "fantasy" folders feature, ANY changes made to layers blend mode, shy state, order etc. would behave exactly as it does now. The folders would merely be a visual tool that aren't even computationally relevant to AE's inner workings, something that is effectively tossed out at render time and every layer is processed as it is now. After Effects doesn't think about your panel layout or color scheme when it computes your files, so why couldn't it have a folder feature that is ignored at render time as well?

But then please explain what would be the benefits beyond allowing easy temporal linking and syncing (Which is also something that can already be achieved)? That's my real problem with your argumentation. So far you are only dancing around without providing any concrete pointers about how such a feature help you to streamline your workflow. In a sense all you are only saying "It could potentially get better." which in my book is not good enough.

I'm certain it could be pulled off in some way, but you have to understand that just like me the developers think in a much larger dimension. They consider how it would affect AE's API, integration with other Adobe apps (Do you transfer such a folded timeline as nested timeleines to Premiere?) and of course legacy compatibility.

I'm also getting the impression your main problem is the amount of navigation required to access certain items, which is completely unrelated to whether there are folders in the timeline or not - even with timeline folders you would need multiple clicks if you are looking for a clip buried inside multiple folded layers. in such cases a simple search/ filtering input would be much more helpful, something which I'm requesting over and over.

Mylenium

[Mylenium]

I guess it would be asking Adobe too much at this moment to just scrap the layers, and give AE a procedural node-based flow?

hehe... sry, just wishfull thinking:)

That would be awesome tho......

What would that achieve beyond screwing established workflows for AE/Premiere and AE/ Encore users as well as turning AE itself upside down for no apparent reason? And in technical terms AE is node-based - each operation is isolated from the others and operates on the result of previous operations. So for what it's worth - let's hope they come up with a way to make the node-view more useful, but beyond that I wouldn't hold out any hope of AE completely changing soon.

Mylenium

[Droolz]

Mylenium, I've been sitting back as this thread unfolds quietly thinking 'wtf?' each time you cannot see the need for folders. They are an organisational tool, nothing else. Yes you can get away without using them, photoshop worked without folders for ages, but it sure as hell is a better product with them.
I have a big comp, witgh lots of sub comps, and sub comps within them. In my master comp it would be nice to be able to whack a load of layers and sub comps into a folder called 'titling and overlay' and another load of layers and sub comps into 'footage' and what the hell, I'll leave a layer 'neat' on the timeline called background. Now I can minimise and organise the screen space taken by these layers using the same paradym that's found in a lot of other major adobe software.
None of these should have any effect on solo / shy / blendmodes or anything else. *If* adobe felt it would be cool to have folder based overides, all the better. If you still can't see how this would be useful then your comp organisational skills scare me.

[Mylenium]

If you still can't see how this would be useful then your comp organisational skills scare me.

Mmh, but then again you haven't seen them, just as I haven't seen yours, have you? :o) Please do not move from discussing technical aspects of AE to personal accusations based on assumptions which you cannot prove. I think I have explained myself well enough and said many times that I don't see any need for timeline folders, both out of personal preference and for the way it could possibly affect the inner workings of AE. I can accept that I may be part of a minority, but I just as well expect the rest of the world to accept my opinion in the matter. If you insist on having them, I'd advise you to file feature requests with Adobe instead of bringing up the issue here over and over again where your wishes most likely will go unnoticed and you will never get your timeline folders ;o).

Mylenium

[Droolz]

My post was in response to your comment:

But then please explain what would be the benefits beyond allowing easy temporal linking and syncing (Which is also something that can already be achieved)? That's my real problem with your argumentation. So far you are only dancing around without providing any concrete pointers about how such a feature help you to streamline your workflow. In a sense all you are only saying "It could potentially get better." which in my book is not good enough.

And therefore was trying to demonstrate how, for me and potentially others, folders would be benefiicial. Nothing personal was intended.

blah blah / edited as to not to warrant unnecessary steam. fwiw I contacted adobe about this nearly 2 years ago about this, after layers in ps became so useful.

[el_diablo]

I've been using Motion for some recent projects. It has hierarchical layer structure. It does'nt have folders but you can think of some of those layers as folders.And yes its better than precomps...I really can't see any advantage to precomps at this point. Photoshop type organization as well as keeping all the switches and whatnot as is would be best IMHO.

[Mylenium]

fwiw I contacted adobe about this nearly 2 years ago about this, after layers in ps became so useful.

Then send them your FR again and again and again. Flooding Adobe with your wishes is the only way. Trust me, even we insiders have to proceed this way and it pains us when we filed requests two cycles ago and they still haven't materialized. I'm certain you know Stu Maschwitz's blog (http://prolost.blogspot.com) and now try to imagine his wishes for AE... Makes some of what I go on lecturing about pale in comparison... ;o)

Mylenium

[thethule]

Mylenium, you are obviously a hard core AE user. Thats great, and you obviously have a very fast/efficient technique of zipping in and out of precomps and timelines. That works for you, but you have to realise that most people who use it are not as hard core as you and for those people including me who uses it every single day, folders on the timeline would help us no end, just like they did in PS.

Yes dialing up and down the folders would take some time, but you can you honestly not see that that is faster for most people than looking in numerous precomps?

Unix coders might love to work in command line shells, but that doesnt mean its the easiest and fastest way for EVERYONE to work. You are the only person in this discussion saying that folders are redundant and not needed, does that not say something to you?
Now, as for you not getting that the folder system doesn't have to affect the AE rendering, i don't think we can explain it any more simply to be honest.

Marc

[Mylenium]

You are the only person in this discussion saying that folders are redundant and not needed, does that not say something to you?

No, it does not. Well, not beyond telling me something that I didn't know before. Don't worry, I understand that some people may feel a need for such a system and I certainly think I understand the concept of what it does/ could do (intended behavior). I'm even willing to say that I may be thinking in corners where a straight line would get just to the point and I may be overcomplicating things.

Nonetheless, the priorities for such a system are very low on my list. The benefits I could gain are minor compared to a few other things on the interface that need cleaning up first, let alone some problems in the base architecture of AE which are in dire need fixing and I see so many of them.

Anyway, let's consider the matter "discussed to death" here. Whether we will reconvene and still have the same discussion for AE CS5 or whatever they will be calling it then, remains to be seen. Maybe you get your timeline folders, maybe not. ;o)

Mylenium

[Droolz]

Anyway, let's consider the matter "discussed to death" here.

Agreed,

let alone some problems in the base architecture of AE which are in dire need fixing and I see so many of them

Out of curiosty, what are the major problems as you currently see them?

[Mylenium]

Out of curiosty, what are the major problems as you currently see them?

Interface:

a) Full transparent access to things such as configuring keyboard shortcuts and certain hidden preferences - hacking a text file even pisses geeks like me

b) Customizable interface (timeline track colors, f-curve colors, background colors, font sizes, possibly a mild form of skinning) - visual distinction sucks in many areas and cannot be influenced by users

c) True 3D navigation (reference grid, standardized mouse behaviors) - current camera fly-around paradigm is outdated and often unpredictable (flipping due to gimbal lock etc.)

General:

a) Masks and paint paths require a unified architecture with direct access to vertices, paint stroke properties and full editability post-creation (aka "Make AE suitable for serious roto work") - masking is way to slow and adjusting brush paths takes massive workarounds. Masks also suffer from massive quality problems with feathering.

b) See a) ;o)

c) Extended access for scripts and expressions to text (and shape layers) - lots of potential for automation in broadcast and advertising environments that is given away because attributes such as font face cannot be set in an automated fashion and the other way around there is no halfway usable way of deriving data from text with animators.

d) Completely new 3D API with support for high level shading routines (reflections, lights with falloff, better shadows), unified handling of real geometry, particles and of course a speed boost of about 10000% - no need to say much here. AE's 3D is slow, has terrible quality and is inadequate compared to even simple 3D programs.

There is certainly a lot more, but this would be my topmost priorities (and those of a lot of other people)

Mylenium

[ragecg]

What would that achieve beyond screwing established workflows for AE/Premiere and AE/ Encore users as well as turning AE itself upside down for no apparent reason? And in technical terms AE is node-based - each operation is isolated from the others and operates on the result of previous operations. So for what it's worth - let's hope they come up with a way to make the node-view more useful, but beyond that I wouldn't hold out any hope of AE completely changing soon.
Mylenium

Cmon, AE MAY have a "node-view" but it is FAR from a PROCEDURAL node-based system like Fusion or Nuke, etc....

That being said, AE was NEVER designed to work that way, and I NEVER expect it to be:)

I was simply saying in jest, I wouln't mind a Farrari engine in my Jetta, hehe...

But again, thats why we use both AE and Fusion in our shop:)

But in regards to the folder issue, I totaly agree, working in 100-200 layer comps everyday myself, SOME type of "folder-esque" organizational system would be a great help.

Photoshop has folder groups and smart layers, other compositors have grouping features, why not AE?

I sent my requests to Adobe many times as well, so hopefully they will come up with something sooner rather than later.

[Mylenium]

Cmon, AE MAY have a "node-view" but it is FAR from a PROCEDURAL node-based system like Fusion or Nuke, etc....

Mmh, that can be argued and largely depends on the type of project. Thing is, if AE became node-based, it would no longer serve the market it occupies currently. Don't fool yourself. There is about a million small shops that each have a copy of AE, but where one guy is doing editing, title design/ effects and DVD authoring all by himself and since this one guy at best is a trained editor, the concept of timelines and layer "bars" is much closer to his heart than abstract nodes.

And ultimately you can turn this around: their abstractness (apart from the price) is why apps such as Fusion or Nuke fail to take away a decent piece of the cake from AE. I even have serious doubts that many people other than die-hard compositors are using Shake. The low price does not make up for the rather steep learning curve and thus it is still not the right tool for the clientel I'm talking about. You can pretty much come to similar conclusions about web content, where people are also much more used to timelines in Flash than nodes.

In the end it simply boils down to that: As long as AE works for a majority of users, regardless of potential flaws and shortcomings, Adobe would be foolish to completely change it. They have much more to loose than to gain. Winning over a few users of maybe 50,000 licenses of Fusion on the entire planet will not do as much for them as maintaining several hundreds of thousands or even millions of existing AE users. Nobody should be under any illusions that the "serious compositing" market that requires tools such as Shake, Fusion or Nuke is pretty overseeable and does not necessarily have a large importance for a company that tries to serve a much wider spectrum of users.

Mylenium

[beenyweenies]

What I see in this thread is that there are a lot of different opinions on what is ideal or useful. I would like to think that any software aimed at a wide array of user types (mograph, compositors, editors etc) would try their best to accomodate these different needs by simply providing options. Mylenium doen't see the need for folders, I do - why should either of us be wrong? It doesn't have to be EITHER subcomps or folders, I need my subcomps like a hog needs slop. But having the option to use folders on the timeline would be great. This way our varied, unique workflows aren't impacted by being forced into a certain way of doing things, but the option is there (for example, I don't use Premiere so I wouldn't care about the impact folders might have on interopability).

I agree 1000% with Mylenium regarding the node vs timeline workflow, but why not introduce a secondary interface where you can build comps in a node-like way, then hop over to your timeline to see the actual result? The advantage is primarily in serving various prefered workflows, but it would also open the door to interesting things, such as being able to build your own keyer with nodes rather than being FORCED to use a crap "included" option OR an expensive plugin, for example. Nodes and folders are not obscure notions, they are accepted workflow tools in many, many applications so these features shouldn't be considered frivolities.

Options, baby, options. That is the holy grail of a truly useful, efficient program with a diverse user base.

[Mylenium]

I agree 1000% with Mylenium regarding the node vs timeline workflow, but why not introduce a secondary interface where you can build comps in a node-like way, then hop over to your timeline to see the actual result? The advantage is primarily in serving various prefered workflows, but it would also open the door to interesting things,

That would be desirable, but in case of AE I don't think it's realistic to cling on to that wish. Currently there is not a single shred of predefined API for this type of stuff (like exposing individual effects controls as linkable items) and for the foreseeable time all I can see is that we will be able to relink existing connections, which would be similar to changing the stacking order of effects and layers.

...such as being able to build your own keyer with nodes rather than being FORCED to use a crap "included" option OR an expensive plugin, for example.

Mmh, Keylight is not that bad. ;o) Only a direct comparison with Primatte or Nuke's IBK will expose some issues, but they're nort perfect, either (like being extremely sensitive to certain settings).

Mylenium

[beenyweenies]

Mmh, Keylight is not that bad. ;o) Only a direct comparison with Primatte or Nuke's IBK will expose some issues, but they're nort perfect, either (like being extremely sensitive to certain settings).
Mylenium

I actually like Keylight and have had really good results using it, but I know a LOT of power users that prefer to build their own keyer. Those users will cling to Shake until it is completely outdated or move up to a more expensive app like Nuke. That's ok I suppose, but I do see an opportunity for After Effects to take over Shake's mid-low cost market and expand its user base. This would also put downward pressure on pricing for apps like Nuke, which would add competition for Adobe so maybe it's not in their best interest...

[inguatu]

I actually like Keylight and have had really good results using it, but I know a LOT of power users that prefer to build their own keyer. Those users will cling to Shake until it is completely outdated or move up to a more expensive app like Nuke. That's ok I suppose, but I do see an opportunity for After Effects to take over Shake's mid-low cost market and expand its user base. This would also put downward pressure on pricing for apps like Nuke, which would add competition for Adobe so maybe it's not in their best interest...

Those currently using Shake will be for some time. Just because they (Apple) stopped development doesn't mean it still won't have a large user base. The thing with Shake is it just plain works.. great for what it does. The same goes with After Effects. If people are going to jump ship, it'll be on both sides. I doubt they'll ever be a mass exodus from Shake to AFX or vice versa. Besides, Apple won't wait too many development cycles to push out Pheonix or whatever they're calling the next Shake. I doubt that'll be far away into when Shake would be considered outdated. I think Apple will still screw over Linux and PC users.. that's a given. I can't speculate on what Nuke's pricing will be now that The Foundry owns it. So far, Shake has been at the reduced pricing for almost a year? Still, Digital Fusion has not dropped in price because of it nor has Nuke. Betting that one company will drop its price because another does or goes out of business is not a sure bet. 3DSMax is another prime example of refusing to do anything with pricing.

[Mylenium]

So far, Shake has been at the reduced pricing for almost a year? Still, Digital Fusion has not dropped in price because of it nor has Nuke. Betting that one company will drop its price because another does or goes out of business is not a sure bet.

Mmh, I think this has more to do with how those companies see themselves and their product and the fact that Eyeon and D2 Software pretty much have only one product in their portfolio. In such cases dropping prices to generate a larger user base doesn't do any good - in addition to more licenses sold (and resulting influx of money), they'd also need much more tech support and customer care and you need more development effort to accomodate a larger variety of users as well, all of which are factors that on the other side take away from potential extra revenues. In a way it's a loose-loose situation for them.

3DSMax is another prime example of refusing to do anything with pricing.

I don't think that this has to do with any intentional refusal to drop the price or some such thing.

Thing is, MAX/ VIZ was pushed into the architectural/ engineering market quite a bit and those people don't mind paying 3500 Euros for a licence of MAX when their licenses for AutoCAD and its extensions is in excess of 10.000 Euros for a single license. There are so many licenses in that particular market alone, it will make the numbers of some competitors look pale in comparison.

Another area that helps Autodesk to maintain a monopoly is the gaming market which has been quite healthy for years now. They were the first to implement DirectX and additional tools useful for game development like Character Studio.

Now take these two things (which are merely examples, there could be other things stated to illustrate MAX' success) and picture MAX' position: It is used by a large userbase that simply doesn't care about price. It doesn't matter to those people and as long as Autodesk keeps developing MAX and only halfway fulfills the wishes of those users, you will never ever hear any complaints. Just the opposite - if they suddenly dropped their price, everybody would think something is wrong with MAX and it would probably drive users over to XSI or whatever.

Also look at their general pricing structure for all products. Autodesk barely reduces any price and makes a point of saying that you still get more features for the same high price with every new version. The only time they ever moved was when they had to realize it was just frakkin' stupid to sell combustion* for 5000 bucks when at that time you could get 2 and a half licenses of AE Pro. The first 2 versions (before the second price drop down to 1000 bucks) stuck on the shelves like being glued there with cyanoacrylate. It's almost a miracle that it didn't mean the end of combustion*.

Mylenium

[eodmpink]

But in regards to the folder issue, I totaly agree, working in 100-200 layer comps everyday myself, SOME type of "folder-esque" organizational system would be a great help.

Photoshop has folder groups and smart layers, other compositors have grouping features, why not AE?


So you wouldn't consider the ability to put compositions inside other comps a form of layer grouping?

[berniebernie]

So you wouldn't consider the ability to put compositions inside other comps a form of layer grouping?

it's an utterly cumbersome way of organizing things, as you have to go back into other comps to edit changes and come back to the parent comp

The fact that I have to use an ugly workaround for that (nifty little script: http://www.kulomaa.fi/tuomo/shy/ ) really bothers me

it would be so simple to add as it's simply a UI change

I'm sorry I started this whole discussion but it's just like the dotted line tool for photoshop, seems that Adobe is missing a lot lately...

[Arrrgh4life]

Has anyone here tried out the After Effects CS3 Beta? It's on the Adobe Labs site, but havn't tried it out yet, I dont want to have to deal with the bugs.

http://labs.adobe.com/

Share your experience if you try it...

[beenyweenies]

Has anyone here tried out the After Effects CS3 Beta? It's on the Adobe Labs site, but havn't tried it out yet, I dont want to have to deal with the bugs.

http://labs.adobe.com/

Share your experience if you try it...

I for one am pretty dissapointed overall with AE CS3. First of all, between the app and Bridge3 etc. it took almost as long to install as Windows does, and that's saying something. Second, I am struggling to find anything worth the upgrade price. The interface is identical, all the same features, many of the publicly vaunted features of CS3 are buried away, and it generally feels just like AE7 with a new icon and splash screen. I'll probably stick with AE7 on my PCs, and may pick up CS3 for my intel macs but purely for the Universal Binary angle.

One thing that irritated me with the Beta is that you need a valid AE7 serial to use it beyond 30 days (no biggie), but for some reason it wouldn't accept the serial number from a copy of AE7 I bought from Adobe no more than a month ago.

[Arrrgh4life]

I for one am pretty dissapointed overall with AE CS3. First of all, between the app and Bridge3 etc. it took almost as long to install as Windows does, and that's saying something. Second, I am struggling to find anything worth the upgrade price. The interface is identical, all the same features, many of the publicly vaunted features of CS3 are buried away, and it generally feels just like AE7 with a new icon and splash screen. I'll probably stick with AE7 on my PCs, and may pick up CS3 for my intel macs but purely for the Universal Binary angle.

One thing that irritated me with the Beta is that you need a valid AE7 serial to use it beyond 30 days (no biggie), but for some reason it wouldn't accept the serial number from a copy of AE7 I bought from Adobe no more than a month ago.

Wow, I didn't expect to see such a harsh review. I'm sure adobe will take into acount complaints and straighten many out with the full version, they did with photoshop. Did you get a chance to try the puppet tool?

[el_diablo]

Same feelings of dissapointment here. And puppet tool is something that has been in moho/anime studio for years now. Still Mac Intel compatibility will sell it to me.

I am far more excited about Motion 3.

[erilaz]

One thing that irritated me with the Beta is that you need a valid AE7 serial to use it beyond 30 days (no biggie)

Actually it's only 2 days without a serial... which is pretty harsh, considering 2 days is barely enough time to try out anything properly.

[beenyweenies]

Wow, I didn't expect to see such a harsh review. I'm sure adobe will take into acount complaints and straighten many out with the full version, they did with photoshop. Did you get a chance to try the puppet tool?

As mentioned above I misspoke - the beta only lasts 2 days without a serial. Needless to say this is barely enough time for any working artist to appraise the app's usefullness, especially if it has any problems accepting people's existing serial numbers like mine did.

As for the harsh review, I use After Effects every day, and have for the past 10 years or so. As such, I am always pretty excited when new versions are released. The enhancements made in AE 7.0 were substantial and really gave compelling reason to upgrade, but this one is a bit different. It seems that AE CS3 fulfills a few basic needs, all benefiting Adobe more than the user:

1. Release all flagship apps under a new name (CS3), increasing the press and hype surrounding the releases
2. Push "Suites" rather than individual apps
3. Increase pricing for upgrades and change the upgrade model so that older versions are left out in the cold. Case in point, Illustrator 9.0 owners have no upgrade option. Intended effect? Force users to upgrade often even when releases aren't so compelling (AE CS3)
4. Get apps Universal Binary/Vista compatible and better integrated with each other.

Only point 4 benefits users, aside from novel new tools that a relatively small subset of AE users will need on a daily or even weekly basis. It's especially silly considering that basic needs, such as AE using all of your processors for renders, are still not addressed.

I love AE, but this release is not getting me too excited.

[Mylenium]

Sorry Brendan, you're just "mouthing off", something of which you usually accuse me.


1. Release all flagship apps under a new name (CS3), increasing the press and hype surrounding the releases
2. Push "Suites" rather than individual apps

Agreed, complete nonsense and not even ideal for the apps themselves, as it forces each separate development team to keep up with the others just to maintain the numbering. Some apps will evolve more, some won't and it will piss people massively if they always have to buy those less evolving apps like Illustrator just to get their latest AE or Photoshop.


3. Increase pricing for upgrades and change the upgrade model so that older versions are left out in the cold. Case in point, Illustrator 9.0 owners have no upgrade option. Intended effect? Force users to upgrade often even when releases aren't so compelling (AE CS3)

An na, sorry, that's pretty much BS. Adobe have been very lineant in the past and even now under those more tightened conditions they are much more liberal than some others. Look in the 3D world - if you only leave out one update too many for MAX or Maya (assuming you have no maintenance/ subscription) you loose your entire license and are much more left out in the cold and considering their steep prices it hurts you even more.

I don't exactly understand why you think it's bad for a company to curtail eligibility of "stone-age" apps (Illu 9 was 1999 or something, wasn't it?) for upgrades. Everyone knows what's going on on eBay with those old versions and how many "loyal users" are scamming Adobe by upgrading this half-legit shit and old OEM versions. Do you really think they would let this go on forever and not act?


4. Get apps Universal Binary/Vista compatible and better integrated with each other.

Plus you get Encore and Premiere for Mac (for the first time/ again)


Only point 4 benefits users, aside from novel new tools that a relatively small subset of AE users will need on a daily or even weekly basis.

Rubbish and completely biased by your own workflows and experiences. Don't tell me I'm not going to use Shape layers massively, when infographics and motiongraphics are one big part of my job. Likewise millions of editors will love to throw together their lower thirds, backgrounds and titles using repeaters and other shape tools. Same for the Puppet tool - If nothing else, it's the most efficient corrective warping tool and the next best thing to Re:Flex. There certainly will be sensible uses for it other than Adobe's own cheesy demo stuff.


It's especially silly considering that basic needs, such as AE using all of your processors for renders, are still not addressed.

But it does! Haven't you been testing MP? It's just as good as NucleoPro, just lacks spec preview.

Anyway, just like I said, this time I strongly feel you let your preconceptions and lack of information get in the way of forming an objective opinion about CS3. It amazes me how you discard things like MP, the enhanced motion blur, improved color management, layer styles, shape layers, the Puppet tool, 3D text animators, clip notes, a fixed and improved marker system and many other improvements, when they are a much bigger step for many people than basic 32bpc support and the new interface in AE 7.

Mylenium

[beenyweenies]

My opinion is that NO ONE is wrong in this debate. The problem is that there is a wide variety of user types - hobbyists, freelancers, boutiques and large shops. To the individual, paying $500 to get these new features may not sound like a big deal. To a studio looking at paying $10,000 or more to upgrade the feature benefits are weighed very carefully. If your shop doesn't need a corrective warp tool very often, it isn't going to be worth the investment. Productivity enhancements and tools that will directly impact your ability to deliver better work are the only things that really matter, "cool" means squat.

In my studio we have dozens of machines. My editors have less need for Illustrator, so I'm not going to run out and dump $6,000 every time a new version of it comes out unless it has highly useful new features. For After Effects the same applies - upgrades cost businesses in the tens of thousands, so it better be worth it.


I'm not saying Adobe, sucks, the app sucks or anything of the sort. Just voicing my opinion based on my perspective, which from what I've been reading I am not alone in.

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