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lukasdesign
03-23-2007, 10:27 AM
Hi there,

i'm gonna a buy a new laptop, quite powerful with an additional 22" screen, but now all of them are gonna be delivered with vista. I'm thinking about switching to linux.

I'm an industrial designer, doing some graphics and webdesign

now my questions are:

rendering is easy: I switch from lightwave to blender,

for drawing: coreldraw to xara, maybe inkscape?

gimp instead of PS, i don't need CMYK!

but: how can I model accuratly in an linux environment? no alias, no rhino, no solidthinking is available?

and flash has no linux substitute?

Anyone that can suggest me any good applications? I have no problem with buying software, so I'm not depending on open source only solutions...or is a dual boot the only solution?

next to that: which linux dis would you suggest?

I would like to get the most out of my hardware!



thanks to all!

Apollux
03-23-2007, 01:02 PM
Here is a big fat secret: Linux can run many Windows applications :), to see a list check http://appdb.winehq.org/appbrowse.php

The distro thing has been asked before and disscused in gruesome detail, so Ill cut to the chase: I recomend OpenSuse 10.2 running with KDE.

lukasdesign
03-23-2007, 04:36 PM
do you have experiences with this wine thing?

is a photoshop running at the same speed as it would on a ms machine?

thanks again!

lukas

AngelDream
03-23-2007, 06:53 PM
One major 3d app for Linux is Softimage XSI which is now on version 6, but you can also model accurately in Blender. You've packages such as Krita for graphics and Scribus for editorial content. Adobe hasn't ported Flash to Linux. There's some Flash alternative in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIRA
which is an OpenSource project.
You can download cd-burnable distros and try them out by booting your computer from cd. There are some distros specialized for graphics, video, audio, etc. Good luck!

lukasdesign
03-23-2007, 07:38 PM
with accurate modelling I mean really parametric...like alias & rhino do.

so neither softimage nor blender is an alternative!

it's such a pitty that those companies don't understand the need for an alternative OS, that really points on perfomance!

In animating/modelling I have many alternatives: maya, softimage and Houdini...this means ALL (apart of lightwave) the best commercial applications out there, plus great open source alternatives like wings 3d and blender...

FreakyDude
03-23-2007, 10:08 PM
Well there are a number of alternatives for that,

http://www.ribbonsoft.com/qcad_screenshots.html
qcad being one of them. I haven't tried it yet, the community version is open source, I have the privilige of learning autocad at work, but I'm looking for a decent open source alternative for home.


Just google for them. you'll find a number of cad related programs.

cyze
03-23-2007, 11:54 PM
hello!
just stumbled upon your thread and wanted to share some things as i have done just what you think of doing =)

if you do industrial drawings and web graphics for a living, switching to linux is a really big and time consuming step. I worked a bit with 3d about three years ago using lightwave and maya, and i switched to blender about two years ago (the same time i quit my 3d-job ;).
My experience from that is that it takes a very long time to adapt to the unconventional user interface that blender has. And after that, there are some quirks here and there that you have to learn to live with. I am now (after two years of non proffesional work) at a point where i prefer to model in blender (despite the lack for a built-in bevel tool hehe) over other apps, but remeber that this took a long time. And if you on top of this is switching from photoshop to gimp, and illustrator for inkscape, you are back to square one with a set of tools of lesser functionality, lost in a new operating system.

Now dont get me wrong, i use (and love) gimp 2.3, and i use inkscape for all my vectorgraphics, and, as mentioned, blender is my first choice for 3d-modelling. But it takes a lot of time to get to know theese programs, and if you try to make a living out of doing illustrations, i suggest you try them out a little bit at a time. Modelling some stuff in blender, drawing some buttons in gimp and some icons in inkscape, but that you keep to the tools that you know so that you can still get some serious work done while you learn to use the free alternatives.

All this said, i do honestly hope that you still decide to switch to linux, as a bigger commersial user base is exactly what theese programs need.

Thank you for reading!
regards Christoffer

Apollux
03-24-2007, 03:03 AM
I don't have any experience running PS in Wine because Im not a PS user.

As if X program will run faster or slower on linux compared to windows really depends on how X program is coded. Wine is not an emulator but a replacement API. It takes Win32 API calls and substitute them with UNIX calls. So, the more X application deviates from the standart win32 calls the more Wine has to work.

There is also the fact that even with Wine or without it, if you don't have the propper drivers for your graphic card ALL graphic intensive apps will perform poorly, even the Linux native ones like Blender.

teamcarlisle
03-24-2007, 03:06 AM
Hi there,

i'm gonna a buy a new laptop, quite powerful with an additional 22" screen, but now all of them are gonna be delivered with vista. I'm thinking about switching to linux.



Hey, just so you know, Blender works on Vista, I am currently running Vista Home Premium with an ATI card (I mention that because ATI's drivers completely suck on Vista at the moment, but blender still works great) I just don't know about how your other programs will work in Vista

DrJohn
03-24-2007, 03:09 AM
lukasdesign,
interesting topic (been there 'round two months ago) so I'll try to provide some info for you to save you time (maybe).

I have tried two Linux distros and found Ubuntu 7.04 Herd5 to be the best candidate for a modern, great looking (Beryl) and stable OS. A better choice "is" for maybe just a little while longer Windows XP.
Back to Linux! I would suggest to get "Crossover Linux" because it makes it easy to install the following applications which work 100% under Linux.
1) Photoshop 7
2) SwishMax
3) Blender (windows version runns faster than the linux one)
4) Internet Explorer6 (handy to check your web work if you're a developer)
5) KoolMoves

I'm working with XP and Linux and find that for my work, each OS provides unique features that can be an advantage, depending on what you want to do.

Sometime in April, Ubuntu Studio will be released and I have a feeling that it will be popular. I hope you have "time" to set everything up and that you will share your experience with us because more and more people will adapt Linux into the workflow as Linux is now a "no-brainer" to install.

Good luck :)

Apollux
03-24-2007, 03:19 AM
3) Blender (windows version runns faster than the linux one)


I beg you pardon !!!

This is NOT SO according to all the test I have made running Blender for Windows natively on Windows and Blender for Linux natively on Linux, and all running on the same hardware specs.

DrJohn
03-24-2007, 05:51 AM
this was tested on multiple machines and many other users over at blenderartists.org have had the same result after my original post there.

maybe test again?
You should get about 20% faster render times using a windows version under WINE (pick the Linux distro of your choice)

Have fun :)

secundar
03-24-2007, 01:48 PM
Much of what cyze said struck a chord with me. I have been slowly transitioning from proprietary apps and formats to open ones. It would have been more rapid except for there were just some things that needed to be done in Photoshop or Illustrator etc. This transition was quite a learning process but I believe it was made easier because I was using Mac OS X. I started with Terminal. Then I installed Fink and was introduced to a slew of great utilities and apps including GIMP and Inkscape, all the while keeping Adobe apps nearby. I was also using Cinema 4d for much of my 3d work but found blender to be a viable replacement for much of what i was doing (nothing groundbreaking, of course.)

Today, my main pc, a laptop, runs both Ubuntu Linux (6.06) and Windows XP. Now most of my projects are produced with Inkscape, blender and GIMP. There's still a project here and there that demands Flash, Director, and Photoshop/Illustrator. For example: a client wanted vector illustrations in Illustrator CS (.ai) format. They were very pleased with my work so should they want more I might suggest svg as a viable alternative. I also still have a trusty old Mac where I can use Final Cut...

If you can afford it, get Mac hardware so you can easily run all three operating systems. For much of what you will do you can use Mac OS with Fink and X11.

lukasdesign
03-25-2007, 03:45 PM
all that I will miss is Fprime (a commercial plugin for Lightwave), an real time preview renderer, its great to see in realtime what scene is gonna look like! also Fprime's radiosity solution is great! I don't think that these solutions are offered in blender, aren't they?

Xara Xtreme for shure fullfills my needs in 2d vectorial drawing,

GIMP is a great image editing app, once used to it's GUI

Scribus seems fair enough for the couple of layouts I do.

OpenOffice, Thunderbird, XNview, Krusader, Xpdf are gonna complete my package running on SUSE with KDE or Ubuntu with GNOME.

In terms of distros I'm still a little be confused, but I willl chose one and stick to it I guess. reading the threads here helps, but everybody has arguments for HIS distro...i need the one that is easy to maintain and to use in terms of installing programs and hardware dedection...i guess differences in perfomance gains are minimal

Apollux
03-25-2007, 04:30 PM
Where the distro DOES matter:

1 Hardware support
2 Documentation
3 Easy of install
4 Easy to maintain/upgrade/solve dependencies problem

1. I seems illogical, but hardware support does varies A LOT from one distro to the other. Of course Im talking about pre-packaged and pre-compiled support. In theory you can compile drivers for every piece of hardware that ever ran on Linux, but let's get real: Normal people don't wan't to spent their weekend compiling drivers everytime they upgrade the kernel. Even geeks get tired of it (trust me, even I got tired of it).

It goes without saying, ATI cards users will need to take special care about pre-compiled support because the manual ATI driver install plain sucks.

2. Here is another point where distros does vary a lot. If all the dristo have to offer are INFO and MAN pages, or a bunch of how-to text files stored in a folder stop loosing your time. Real distros have real manuals written by real authors with the non-geek user in mind. For examples of good documentation see Fedora and Suse.

3. There are plenty of install reviews on the net. Do your homework.

4. The average desktop user doesn't know s**t about shell commands, and honestly speaking, he shouldn't need to know them. They are choosing a distro to get EASIER ways to get their job done. If all you ever wanted was running terminal commands why didn't you stick with a bash shell and the GNU kernell. Distro that have a GUI working enviroment but force the user to use the command prompt every day are just doing an incomplete work.

Unfortunately, not a sigle distro fan will ever admit #4 been a problem for him, and you won't find that kind of info on an install review because usually the need for serious package updates arrives months after you have your distro up and running. Sometimes upgrading a part of the system is SO HARD that people op to upgrade the entire distro (even if they don't need to) just to avoid dealing with the dependency hell.

A BIG bonus point is a distro that comes with an auto-repair non-command-promp-oriented boot disk, ala windows. I know that SuSe has it, but don't know about the others.

Finally, about the KDE vs GNOME debate, it boils down to your personality.

Are you a sophisticated user that demands the latest in eye candy? KDE
You see the computer as an office supply that serves it purpose and then is put away for the rest of the day (like a desktop calculating machine)? GNOME
Are you a control and micro-management freak? KDE
Do you like your stuff simple and super easy? GNOME

lukasdesign
03-25-2007, 05:47 PM
I know you made excellent expiriences with SUSE, the only thing that bothers me is probably KDE, because I'm belonging to the "no candy is the best candy" group...that's why I wanna say goodbye to Windows.

would you suggest SUSE on Gnome? or better Ubuntu which runs Gnome nativly (makes more sense to, as an absolute beginner?)

I guess both distros are great maintaining, ease of use and hardware detection, arent't they?

thanks,

VirgilioVasconcelos
03-25-2007, 06:17 PM
You should get about 20% faster render times using a windows version under WINE (pick the Linux distro of your choice)

Well... Found it interesting and just gave it a try.

I'm running Ubuntu 06.10 on an HP laptop (1GB Ram, Intel integrated video card, 1.6 GHz Centrino processor)

I've used the test.blend file found in the blender benchmark page: http://www.eofw.org/bench/

And the march sse2 optimized releases (Windows and Linux) found on http://www.blenderbuilds.com/

Under the same conditions (no other apps running) the results were:

blender windows under wine: 03:42:80
blender linux native: 04:23:39

A bit shocking, IMHO.

I don't have Windows installed here, so I couldn't test it under this OS on this machine.

Cheers

DrJohn
03-25-2007, 08:36 PM
lukasdesign,
you mentioned "realtime preview render" and if no one has answered that one yet, I'd like to suggest "Shift + P"
This is maybe not exactly like in Lightwave, but it will give you a quick open gl (I think) preview render and it's very handy. My screen is split so that at all times I have a mini render view available. On top of that mini window, I have "render preview" runnin all the time.

Hope you find that useful :)

p.s. The reason I've picked Ubuntu at last was that openSuse messed up my display so bad that I had to reset the monitor a few times just to get it back to normal. When I insert the openSuse DVD and reboot, the screen shifts about a third to the right, displaying much content off screen and I have to reset/calibrate the monitor just to install it.
Bad idea .... wish someone told me not to do that. Anyway, once Ubuntu boots, it runs on 150 - 180 MEG of RAM while opensuse uses about 250+.
Ubuntu will soon get an official update and Ubuntu Studio should turn more heads than any other Linux distro before that (me thinks)

Have a great week :)

Apollux
03-26-2007, 03:01 AM
Shift-P is a "real" preview, not just OpenGL, but been so small it shouldn't take that much resources.

Suse can run GNOME as natively as Ubuntu. And I agree, KDE demands more RAM than GNOME.

There is also the fact that each distro has it's defaults about what is loaded at startup, and that means different RAM footprints on default configuration for each distro.

On the distro thing this is my final word: Test them all to your heart content. They are free!!

FreakyDude
03-29-2007, 10:12 PM
I read somewhere both gnome and kde are resource hogs when you compare them to xfec 4 and some other thing (googled it somewhere) found dreamlinux and gentoo mentioned several times as being fast. I haven't used my second drive ubuntu OS for some time, not serious anyway. Was thinking about digging into ubuntu again, but more particular dreamlinux.

As reasons for gnome and kde being slow was because of the GUI based stuff. whereas command line apps are supposed to be fast. seeing dreamlinux's screens, it looks pretty graphical to me, does it's graphical interface affect it's speed? I know this is nagging, and I'm gonna try it anyway, but I'm still curious since I know one or two people here have run it, soo, what where your findings with distro's AND blender?(multimedia in general)

cowdude
03-31-2007, 02:38 PM
Many highend 3d packages ie: maya come in linux versions and many design companies use emulation software to run windows software like photoshop on linux.

PanzerMKZ
04-02-2007, 10:16 PM
this was tested on multiple machines and many other users over at blenderartists.org have had the same result after my original post there.

maybe test again?
You should get about 20% faster render times using a windows version under WINE (pick the Linux distro of your choice)

Have fun :)


Can you post links to some of the blendartists.org threads that have this information. Maybe my search skills are not good enough. Thanks


Panzer

fktt
04-03-2007, 02:27 PM
hey!
_this_ (http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/index.php) link might be wort a check, basically its a test witch tetermines witch linux distribution(s) sutes you the best!

VirgilioVasconcelos
04-03-2007, 02:56 PM
Can you post links to some of the blendartists.org threads that have this information. Maybe my search skills are not good enough. Thanks Panzer

Well... above on this page I've posted my benchmark results. The link for the blenderartists.org thread that discuss it is: http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=90689

Cheers

PanzerMKZ
04-03-2007, 09:05 PM
thanks. I am DLing ICC now. Going to play around with more. Did you also see the fact that some of the linux versions being used where pre compiled older versions then what could have been got from blender.org.



Panzer

inneractive
04-10-2007, 12:04 PM
I just want to say thanks for all the info in this thread. I am turning my spare 2.4Ghz P4 into a Linux box using Ubuntu while keeping an eye out for Ubuntu Studio's release. I plan to use Blender, Indigo, and Kerkythea for personal projects and also check out Cinelerra for video editing and Quicktime encoding. I just hope I can get all my hardware working okay, like my Wacom tablet. Luckily I have both an Ati X800 and an NVIDIA 6600GT to choose from as my GPU. Sounds like I should go for the NVIDIA.

All the other apps like Gimp, Xara, Inkscape, and Scribus sound like cool tools I should try out too.

inneractive
04-10-2007, 10:17 PM
lukasdesign,
3) Blender (windows version runns faster than the linux one)


It seems this is not the case. Put an SSE/SSE2 optimized Windows build vs an SSE/SSE2 optimized Linux build and the optimized Linux build is faster. If you compare the official Blender build for Windows against the official Linux build, the Windows build is faster in Windows and in Linux using Wine. This is due to how the sourcecode is compiled and with what software it is compiled with.

Blender.org does not host optimized builds, you need to go to Graphicall.org. There you can find an optimized Linux build. Here are some benchmarks on the same machine from BlenderArtists.org showing that the fastest render result (by a large margin) is from the Linux SSE/SSE2 optimized build. And of course, keep in mind that these builds only work on CPUs that support the SSE/SSE2 instruction sets.

Ubuntu + Blender.org Build
4:18.21

Windows + Blender.org Build
3:43.68

Wine + Blender.org Build
3:43.36

Windows + Optimized Build
2:55.67

Wine + Optimized Build
2:52.75

Ubuntu + Optimized Build
2:19.26

You might also notice that running a Windows build in Linux under Wine is faster than running the Windows build on Windows!

kattkieru
04-11-2007, 10:40 PM
I wanted to add some notes:

- Ubuntu 6.10 is awesome. I've switched to it in the last month and I'm loving it, seriously. The thing that usually throws me off of Linux distros is the difficulty in getting my video card to work (usually they tell you to download an RPM, and those never work for me, so I end up having to tinker for a week). Ubuntu has this nice add-on called Project Envy (http://www.albertomilone.com/nvidia_scripts1.html) that makes the whole thing extremely simple. This, combined with the fact that all of my hardware save my scanner and Wacom tablet were detected and configured automagically make Ubuntu my weapon of choice.

- Inkscape is amazing. Each version they add new features and as time's gone on it's looking more and more to become a serious Illustrator competitor. I haven't yet given Xara a real go (it won't compile on my Mac yet, so I'm waiting), but if you want options I highly recommend Inkscape.

- On KDE vs Gnome vs blah: if you're resource crazy you can grab Enlightenment or one of the other light-weight managers, but really it's not a huge difference (like 100 meg of ram or something). KDE is my personal favorite, mostly because it's the most intuitive for folks coming from a Windows background and things are kind of placed in spots that are easy to find. Gnome always feels like it's actively trying to keep me from doing my work, but YMMV. Lots of folks love it.

- I miss FPrime too. =/ But at least Blenderheads have Dr. Queue (http://drqueue.org/cwebsite/) to sate the desire for LWSN.

inneractive
04-11-2007, 11:10 PM
Thanks for the link to Envy!

I agree about Ubuntu 6.10. I was nervous about doing a Linux installation, but Ubuntu installed perfectly, all hardware is working for me. A really nice feature is that you can run Ubuntu from the Live CD to check hardware compatibility, then if everything is working just click the install icon. I like it so much I am downloading and upgrading to Ubuntu 7.04 (beta), which will be officially released in one week April 18th. I can't wait though ;p

Only problem so far is running Quicktime and Windows Media, but I will see how 7.04 handles that. There seem to be many options, I just need to read up on it. I can't wait to start doing some render and encoding speed comparison tests vs Windows.

Also, anyone planning on trying out the Beryl GUI? I read it can be added as a package in Ubuntu 7.04. Looks really cool. Not more productive or anything, just cool.

Ubuntu Beryl Overview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHrT-W7DcNc&NR=1)

KayosIII
04-14-2007, 04:27 AM
rendering is easy: I switch from lightwave to blender
Realistic options are Blender (os), Wings3d (os), realsoft3d (com), maya (com), softimage (com) & houdini (com)

for drawing: coreldraw to xara, maybe inkscape?
Inkscape (os) is decent, haven't really tried Xara (os?) that much. Scribus is always a decent part of the workflow.

gimp instead of PS, i don't need CMYK!
Realistic Options are Photoshop (com) under wine http://blog.publicidadpixelada.com/how-to-adobe-photoshop-cs2-on-ubuntu-10-steps/
the gimp (os), Krita (os), pixel (com)


but: how can I model accuratly in an linux environment? no alias, no rhino, no solidthinking is available?

Realistic Options are Varicad http://www.varicad.com/ but might be a bit specific for your needs.
There is also pro-engineer but that might be overkill.
Realsoft3d has a reasonable Nurbs Toolset but is not a presision modeller. I think Maya and XSI are in the same boat.
Finally I found but am totally unfamiliar with autoq3d http://autoq3d.ecuadra.com/products.htm


and flash has no linux substitute?
Flash 8 currently has a platinum rating on wine (the highest you can get) - see this link http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?iVersionId=3673
If you are just doing animations there are a few other options available both commercial and opensource.

Anyone that can suggest me any good applications? I have no problem with buying software, so I'm not depending on open source only solutions...or is a dual boot the only solution?

Heres My Shortlist
3D) Wings3d, Blender3d, JPatch (spline modelling) - also check out houdini, XSI, Maya, Realsoft3d
2D) Gimp, Krita (16bpp + support, watercolour brushes etc), Inkscape, Scribus (dtp), Digikam, rawstudio (raw photos), Ufraw (raw photos) and pixel.
Video) Cinelerra (NLE) (be careful - buggy), Kino (capture), Mainactor, stopmotion.
Sound) Ardour, Audacity, Rosegarden, hydrogen, freewheeling, zynaddsubfx and of course for listening there is Amarok
Utilities) Celtx Script and Storyboard editor, Mindmapping tool Kdissert, K3B cd/dvd burner, Disk Search (indexes backup DVD's so you can find files on them quickly)

next to that: which linux dis would you suggest?
I am reasonably happy on Kubuntu Edgy... My personal preference is for anything Debian Based... And I have a preference for KDE.

KayosIII
04-14-2007, 04:38 AM
I wanted to add some notes:


- Inkscape is amazing. Each version they add new features and as time's gone on it's looking more and more to become a serious Illustrator competitor. I haven't yet given Xara a real go (it won't compile on my Mac yet, so I'm waiting), but if you want options I highly recommend Inkscape.



Have you seen what they have added since the last release. The gradient editor is now completely onscreen, There is a flash style bucket tool and a whole bunch of new options for the calligraphy tool.

kattkieru
04-14-2007, 04:20 PM
Only problem so far is running Quicktime and Windows Media, but I will see how 7.04 handles that. There seem to be many options, I just need to read up on it. I can't wait to start doing some render and encoding speed comparison tests vs Windows.

For QT and WMV you should grab VLC (http://www.videolan.org/). I've been using it for years, but I've only recently started using it on Linux and for the most part it plays anything I throw at it. I think some of the newer WMV codecs aren't supported, but all kinds of quicktime files play right away. If you add the useful apt repositories to your apt list, you can have apt-get install it I believe. (Information on that is up at http://www.elijahlofgren.com/ubuntu/.)

Also, anyone planning on trying out the Beryl GUI? I read it can be added as a package in Ubuntu 7.04. Looks really cool. Not more productive or anything, just cool.

Don't bother unless you want to waste two weeks hacking. Both Beryl and Compiz are not ready for prime time, at all. When they work it's nifty, but trust me when I say getting them to work is not worth the effort. (Now, my experience is with Ubuntu only, so things might be different on other distros.)

kattkieru
04-14-2007, 04:27 PM
Have you seen what they have added since the last release. The gradient editor is now completely onscreen, There is a flash style bucket tool and a whole bunch of new options for the calligraphy tool.

Actually for a variety of reasons I'm still rockin' v0.44. I need to upgrade. ^_^

inneractive
04-14-2007, 11:03 PM
KayosIII thank you for that list of apps, very usefull. Realsoft looks like it is worth checking out. I also found a website called osalt.com (http://www.osalt.com/) that lists linux alternates.

Kattkieru, thanks for pointing me to VLC, I'll try it out. I tried out Beryl with Ubuntu Feisty and it worked great. It is listed in the synaptic and is an easy install. I also got the configuration utility and played with a ton of settings and it was stable, at least for that single day. My idle RAM usage went from 95MB to 200+MB, so I eventually uninstalled it because I prefer a lighter desktop on that machine. Besides, Ubuntu Feisty already comes with some cool GUI effects from Compiz that run fast and stable.

I have a 650MHz laptop I installed Xubuntu Fiesty on and it works great, no drivers needed to be installed (amazing!). The Xfce desktop only uses 45MB of RAM while idle. I'm going to try and go even lighter by switching to the Fluxbox desktop today.

As for Blender stuff, I was able to set up an SSE2 optimized Linux build and so far it renders over 20% faster than the official build using the Blender Benchmarks test.blend. I also got Kerkythea up and running, but it was not too stable (beta). I am going to try and learn how to turn these builds into .deb packages so they can be easily shared with other Debian/Ubuntu users.

KayosIII
04-15-2007, 06:18 AM
Actually for a variety of reasons I'm still rockin' v0.44. I need to upgrade. ^_^

true 0.45 is worth it for the blur filter alone.

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