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lildragon
03-06-2003, 12:04 AM
Hi all,

It came to my attention that you guys have been having your own challenges in here and some of you wanted to know if we could add game art to the challenge categories. So here's your chance to voice your thoughts. Please vote yes or no before Friday. If it's all in favor then gameart will be added to all future challenges.

salud

leigh
03-06-2003, 12:07 AM
Absolutely :thumbsup:

Since games form such a massive part of this industry, I think that a Game Art catagory in the challenges is an excellent idea!

RobertoOrtiz
03-06-2003, 12:18 AM
I agree with Leigh 100% about the importance of covering games in the challenge.
But I have some questions about the scope of this category.

Will we be covering character and environment designs?
Maybe a low poly characters category?
Or a combination of both?

:shrug:

-Roberto

sadist
03-06-2003, 12:18 AM
Yeah it's probably a good time to think about it. This comp's got a decent amount of entries after all, and with a bit more advertising that can only increase :D

MrHappyPants
03-06-2003, 12:41 AM
YES!!! :thumbsup:

an official "gameart"challenge would be great. and weve had more interest with every "member" held competition so far.

some concerns I have are on the competition themes.. the most popular competitions seemed to be based on realtime modelled/textured characters.. other forums reflect this as they have a lower amount of entrys with environments/vehicles.

also restrictions seemed to be heavily favored.. gameartists want to know as much detail as possible. polycount/texture sizes/yes or no on alpha, specularity, bump, etc etc.

themes based around pre-designed art seem to be popular too.. other forums have alot of entrys with a pre-chosen concept sketch from a popular designer (feng zhu,we could use maybe a hawkprey design?)

just ideas from what ive seen so far.. alot more character artists out there

Whirlwind
03-06-2003, 12:47 AM
:thumbsup:

-D

Beroc-LOD
03-06-2003, 02:14 AM
NO!!!!!



no wait......

YES!!!!!!

LOLOLOL

Who wouldnt want that.... at least give us a chance to play with the big boys...;)

SPyDeR WeBz
03-06-2003, 03:15 AM
:beer:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Two thumbs up.

Yes we should, i agree with Beroc-LOD.

Krystman
03-06-2003, 11:42 AM
Yeah, baby, yeah! :bounce:

(if I just could find out who the one was, that voted against.. *grrr* :annoyed: )

tpe
03-06-2003, 12:02 PM
yes please :)

tpe

Prs-Phil
03-06-2003, 12:40 PM
:beer:

Weheee finally thats a great idea.
Its a own way of art and deserves the same amout of attention as all the others do.

DaKrunch
03-06-2003, 02:51 PM
siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

i agree 101%

mv
03-06-2003, 10:20 PM
OF COURSE!

Stygian
03-07-2003, 01:20 AM
this will be great Can't wait to see the results.

Yeah!!!! Lil'D

CGmonkey
03-07-2003, 04:56 PM
I voted yes.. But in a way it was kinda charming that a contest spawned in the forums that weren't official. If it comes down, I should've voted no! ;)

Ravennome
03-07-2003, 10:52 PM
Hell yeah, it should be official.

lildragon
03-08-2003, 12:02 AM
Thx guys, I've made my decision, it would be alot of extra work for me and the mods to have additional categories implemented.

What I will do is add the game rules to the classic challenge site, so bascially we'll have additional rules focused more for the game art, and you guys would then participate along side the others. Using a different prefix for your thread titles and such.

We've discussed it and decided this was best, and think about it with the new engines available today, low poly counts are getting very high :)

I'll fill you in more.

salud

sanhueza
03-08-2003, 12:21 AM
I'm glad to see that these challenges we started are finally going to be official. Congrats to everyone who helped make this so!

As far as adding the Game Challenges to the Classic Challenges, what do you mean by "participating alongside the others?" Would game art be judged alongside high-poly art, or would there be seperate categories for judging, but following the same theme (like both low-poly and high-poly contests focusing on LOTR art for example)?

Also, how does the theme of each successive challenge get picked as the system works now? Does the winner of the previous challenge choose it, or a moderator? I would really like to see the tradition that we have going on now with the game comps to continue. That is, the winner of a challenge picks the theme and rules for the next month's challenge.

Looking forward to seeing where this goes,

- Me

www.sanhueza.com

wanzai
03-09-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by CgMonkey
I voted yes.. But in a way it was kinda charming that a contest spawned in the forums that weren't official. If it comes down, I should've voted no! ;)

Come to think of it, I agree with that 100%. I was primarily asking for an seperate forum for easier handling, but didn't think of giving up that sweet "winner gets to be the next host"-tradition we started. And that wouldn't be possible if the new official Game Art Challenge turns out to be "only" a sub-type of the usual ones.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate that the mods actually heard us. It's just like my request seems to turn "our" challenge into something different... unintentionally.

Jabo
03-09-2003, 06:39 PM
Yes, yes, yes!

Low-poly char-modeling, mesh-making, scenes. Or even game-specified level-design? :D

Adder
03-09-2003, 07:49 PM
I to would like the next challenges to be chosen by the winner i think it adds a bit to the participation of the guys entering and gives a fun element to the challenge.

gaggle
03-09-2003, 08:26 PM
Hell yeah, hooray for lowpoly challenges.

I like the idea of having the same theme as another challenge, if they're doing LOTR characters, so could we :) So as it turns out, I'm not at all against sharing the exact same challenge page if it means the admins can save time.

I just hope this time-saving effort doesn't turn out to be a hinderance in the end, if people become confused as to what "looks nicest" and such. It would be tough setting a 500 poly limit in one challenge, and competing against people going for the highresolution part of the ruleset, if people weren't aware of the differences in high- and low-poly

I realise it won't be intended to work this way, I'm just saying I hope it won't, despite the best intentions, turn out that way :)

In conclusion: I'm a bitter old man who fears the worst, but I'm nontheless all for the current implementation and seeing how it works out :)

TRyanD
03-10-2003, 12:11 AM
Hellyeah :D

Im here to work on my game design/modelling skills, and challenges like that would get me more involved :O

:thumbsup:

fortner
03-17-2003, 06:14 AM
yes

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Apt Pupil
03-17-2003, 03:45 PM
Yeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssss

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Kalel06
03-17-2003, 05:00 PM
:applause: :thumbsup: :applause:

By all means, do make it happen, game art is CG art too! :)

flaagan
03-17-2003, 09:18 PM
the one thing i'd like to request is that some of the models that end up here be represented on the 'popular thread' bar across the top of the forum main page. some of the stuff here deserves recognition (like that one dude that modelled and textured the Hummer with only ~900 polys and still made it extremely realistic)

Gandalf
03-17-2003, 11:33 PM
Yes :thumbsup: great idea!

KazuyaMochu
03-18-2003, 12:24 AM
I'm not trying to change subject, but I think I can't take the current of the discussion to mension this:

Why doesn't Game art design get on the front page as offen as final work forum does?

and why art game art designer afraid to post they're work on the finished art work forum? if its finished...

I meen, I get the filling that low poly is viewed as a minor art, and high poli as a higher art.

it's kind of a separation, and game art designer have not done any thing so far to balance things...

thant's my thoughts


best regards,

Kazuya Mochu

spakman
03-18-2003, 03:30 AM
What exactly is "game art?"

Temporal
03-18-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by spakman
What exactly is "game art?"

"Game Art" is the host of visual elements that comprise a computer game. Whether they be levels/maps, models, textures, animations for the models, anything under the sun that has too do with the looks of a game.

On topic: I voted yes because I think low polygon work is more difficult to create than high polygon work and would therefore make a very fun and challenging contest.

fortner
03-18-2003, 06:04 AM
What exactly is "game art?"

anything that can be put into a real-time engine.

Also, i disagee that low poly is harder than high... It is just a completly different skill. However, a highres, and low res modeller both need to have the same level of understanding of muscle tone, bone structure, and clothing....atleast for character type stuff.

goodlag
03-18-2003, 08:38 AM
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
:applause: :applause: :applause:
:thumbsup:
yes:drool: great idea!!!

bentllama
03-18-2003, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by Temporal
I voted yes because I think low polygon work is more difficult to create than high polygon work and would therefore make a very fun and challenging contest.

I do not agree with that statement. Alot of game artists use that statement to feel more secure in their work when compared to high poly models. Just as much thought goes into a good hi-poly mesh as does a low-poly mesh.

It is also funny to note that the more "old school" a game artist the more you hear that exact comment come out of their mouth to justify their portfolio. I know alot of artists' who justify their mediocre folio like this...

Blanketing statements like that also do nothing but segregate game and film talent. Film guys also often repeat that game art is not difficult to create...

Why don't we all stop with the game artist vs film artist stuff and just all get along...:)...I mean game art is gonna catch up with film model resolution soon, right? ;)

:beer:

bentllama
03-18-2003, 09:05 AM
Here are my thoughts on the issues at hand. I sent this in an email to all the mods...

As far as a separate games challenge, I am not certain I am all for it or that it would be advantageous. Funny hearing that come from a game guy too, eh?

It would result in more work, another forum to moderate, etc. If xxxxxxxxx or whomever is ready to handle that additional burden, then so be it... Like xxxxxxx, I think we have to set all these challenge categories in stone before we can branch off. The classic challenge is set in stone due to its long history. This upcoming animation challenge will ONLY be our 3rd challenge of that type, as well as the Arch-Vis and VFX ones. We are still getting a feel for those challenges and augmenting rules, etc as we learn more about them and gather more feedback from participants.

Another point that xxxxxxx started to introduce is that nowhere in the classical challenge rules does it say the models HAVE TO BE HIGH POLY. A game artist aficionado can easily create a great 3000 poly piece and have it textured and weighted and posed in time frame of the challenge. Also, with more advanced game engines are accepting characters that are 3000-5000 polys with bump mapping, specularity maps, normal maps and complex CG/real time shaders, a character created for a game of that nature would fit in well with the current classic challenge. If they want to make it a "game" character, then they should just identify the entry as such.

I remember someone saying that a toon character was not a fit for the LoTR universe in the last challenge, however, I didn't read anywhere that there were no toons allowed. I also have never read that game characters were not allowed in the classic challenge either. :)
Making a public statement to the game crew/everyone at CG Talk would be wise, pointing this fact out to them.

As far as votes are concerned, is it not the mods that vote on the winners? If a game character is the best design and most clever, aesthetic and technical piece then they deserve to win as well.

Here is an example of a user made model for UT2K3 that weighs in at around 4500 polys. It is not the clearest modeling example, but it can illustrate what detail can still be achieved. http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/info/ut2003/angelinterceptor/angelinterceptor.shtml

And look here at the Halo 2 bump mapping technique. This model weighs in at a LOWER polycount than the first Halo game, but it looks 100 times better. http://halo.bungie.org/misc/mc2xray/

Let me know your opinions on my rhetoric. :)

wanzai
03-18-2003, 09:35 AM
Why all that fuzz about the comparability?

Wouldn't it be better to leave the Game Art Comps the way it is, with all the "traditions" and the "charming underground feel" intact, and simply give it an own forum - for clarity's sake? Like that progamming forum noone is using?

At least that was what I asked lildragon for, primarily.

Temporal
03-18-2003, 01:53 PM
@Bentllama 1st post: I'm no old school artist, nor do I have a portfolio to protect. I merely said that I think low-res models are more difficult to create than high res because that has been my personal experience.
For diplomacy's sake it probably would have been better for me to add "and many times the same can be said for highres models" or since it does take a great dealof thought and skill to construct a clean and beautiful mesh.
Sorry for the ommision.

@Bentllama 2nd post:
Another point that xxxxxxx started to introduce is that nowhere in the classical challenge rules does it say the models HAVE TO BE HIGH POLY.

I agree with you on this point. I too never saw anything in the rules saying a work had to be high polygon.
And with the use of the bump mapping technique, one would find it difficult to find a sizable diference.

I for one would like to have a separate forum for game art, but that would add a good deal more stress to the mods But then, perhaps lildragon already has somekind of plan of action to take care of this.

- Out, Temporal

Anim8rJB
03-18-2003, 03:38 PM
Bentllama I will personally give you ten dollars if you can put down the thesaurus and not use the word 'rhetoric' every other time you post. That is all. :applause: :shame: :wavey:

spakman
03-18-2003, 04:36 PM
I honestly had to delete what I had spent a good 45 minutes writing, before settling on my posted question. That post would have been a little incindiary, so I decided against it, instead just scribbling "what is game art?"

But I will say I agree with bentllama (no shizzle) almost %100 on this one.

In answer to the original title of this thread, I read replies like (paraphrasing) "oh great a low poly contest forum" or "Will our art be compared to the high poly stuff?"

If these are the concerns, why not just call the new contest forum the Low Poly Contest Forum? Just because it's low poly don't make it dance to your joystick wishes. In fact, one has nothing to do with the other.

If you want a true game contest forum, you're going to have to get a little more sophisticated in presentation. Some format other than still shots - which is exactly what game art isn't - has to be adopted to give this contest credibility.

Otherwise it's just one more forum to dilute the talent pool's chances of getting noticed.

peace d=^)

bentllama
03-18-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Anim8rJB
Bentllama I will personally give you ten dollars if you can put down the thesaurus and not use the word 'rhetoric' every other time you post. That is all. :applause: :shame: :wavey:

Why must you chime in commentary on my diction? :) :p ;)

bentllama
03-18-2003, 04:53 PM
Oh, and I still say that all us/you game artists here should crash the main classic challenge and show them what we can do!

:scream:

spakman
03-18-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by bentllama
Oh, and I still say that all us/you game artists here should crash the main classic challenge and show them what we can do!

:scream:

Eh, no time. All my creative juices now get sucked through a great big NDA catheter.

bentllama
03-18-2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by spakman
Eh, no time. All my creative juices now get sucked through a great big NDA catheter.

8 weeks till E3.

The E3 crunch of death weighs heavy upon my shoulders...

dmbilly4
03-18-2003, 09:11 PM
put in a yes for me, i'm all for the game challenges!

Apt Pupil
03-19-2003, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by bentllama
Oh, and I still say that all us/you game artists here should crash the main classic challenge and show them what we can do!

I have to seriously disagree with you about game art standing any ounce of a chance in the classical challenge section. When people go to vote, they look for and expect to see high polygon objects with extreme amounts of details, and many types of shaders. The mass majority of people here would scouf at the mere presence of the title 'Game character.' Why? because there is a serious believe that creating game art is easy and only a minority of people here who actually create game art for games know otherwise.

For a low polygon game character to win, he would have to be the absolute best of the best. He would need one of the best concepts, super details in his textures, and have a darn good model that immediatly wins over everyones heart. There is no room for error if he wants to stand any chance for winning. However, even then, he would only stand a 25% - 50% chance of winning against only a "mediocore" high polygon model with lots of shaders and almost a 0% chance against somebody who submits an 'above average' high poly entry.

I don't believe this to be fair and hence belief that game artists should have their own section in the contests. We should not have to compete with an arm, a leg, and a head tied behind our back even if it is after all . . . just for fun.

Game art is an art in itself and hence, should be treated as such, and if I had to use an example to illustrate my point, any high polygon work from pascal blanche and/or matt clark would "kill, beat, destroy, elliminate, banish and vanquish to the farthest reaches of H--L" any form of game art submitted by an an equilivant professional game artist such as Hawkprey, ether, or bobo_the_seal.

Therefor, Game art section all the WAY:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:


(sorry for all spelling mistakes and incorrect name spellings in this post, I was in a rush)

MrHappyPants
03-19-2003, 08:34 AM
to illustrate my point, any high polygon work from pascal blanche and/or matt clark would "kill, beat, destroy, elliminate, banish and vanquish to the farthest reaches of H--L" any form of game art submitted by an an equilivant professional game artist such as Hawkprey, ether, or bobo_the_seal.

I dont want to start a text battle here but "apt pupil" seems to be quite ignorant in his view of what the cgtalk classic challenge is all about. the cg classic challenges are won by people who create incredible pieces of art that capture the vision of the competition. if an artist chose to use restrictive real-time engine techniques It wouldnt really matter...

I believe this because hi-poly modelers often create pieces so loaded with USELESS poly detail that they lose the vision of the character. On top of that they often have a limited knowledge of the use of color and how it works to bring out details on a character. They rely on poly detail which is useless unless you want to ram a camera up a characters nose. Game artists on the other hand are required to capture the look of the character in as few polys/ bells and whistles as possible. I truly believe this creates a stronger artist as one is able to create more characters in less time. The minimilistic approach and use of color/detail forces one to realize what people actually see on a character. It seems so easily lost with hi-poly art.

I also argue that with the onset of normal mapping we now see real-time engines running art that is no longer really "low-poly". It requires the artist to create a high-poly piece first and then use it as source for the actual real-time low-poly model. So whats the difference?! its all the same now... we all use the SAME tools and same skills to create characters that are seen moving on a screen.

I see no reason for game art to not be a part of the classic challenges! and I believe that once the high-poly community sees what we are capable of creating they will re-think they're own skills and techniques in getting the point across to the viewer. Speed is afterall essential in ALL industries

BRING IT ON!
:cool:

Apt Pupil
03-19-2003, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by MrHappyPants
I dont want to start a text battle here but "apt pupil" seems to be quite ignorant in his view of what the cgtalk classic challenge is all about. the cg classic challenges are won by people who create incredible pieces of art that capture the vision of the competition. if an artist chose to use restrictive real-time engine techniques It wouldnt really matter...

If the only thing the classic challenges are about is this fabled thing you mention "capturing the vision of the competition through incredible pieces of art" then why not merge everything together. If we are going to be so vague, let's bring the animation, vfx, 2d and classics challenges together if we think that art should be judged not by it's extremely obvious seperations, but by it's basic form: Art.

I'll tell you why they shouldn't do this. Because, once again, the classic challenges with it's high poly counts will kill everything else. If you want examples of this, run through the early challenges labeled "Beast of Burden" and "Above and Beyond." Here you will see what happened to the 2d art work when it was compared to the classical high poly models. 2d art, no matter how good, lost by 10 to 1 in points.

I understand that you (mrhappypants and bentllama) think that game art is great, for I too love game art ( My WIP (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50636)), but I don't see why individual people should have to take on your crusade just to prove game art is the best.

Anyways, last time I checked, with 106 to 2, the votes seem to suggest that game art is just as popular as the classical challenges, and by itself, it will certainly garner a very large interest under it's own heading: "Game Art Challenge."

Moderators You know . . . if you end up creating a game art section, you can always split it in two: One for game models, and the other for. . . concepts heheh. That would be extremly Sweeeeet.

muckywetnoodle
03-19-2003, 09:46 AM
If the game art gets added to the classic challenges it would be nice if there were an addendum to the rules with low-poly guides (poly count, texture size etc. or perhaps target engine). Seems a realistic approach to a game oriented entry anyhow.

I think a good part of the fun of low poly is seeing how much you can cram into your given limits.

lildragon
03-19-2003, 10:22 AM
Pardon my french but Art Pupil where the hell did you pull that theory from? That's the biggest load of bulls**t I ever read dude. Honestly you need to step down from your soap box because that s**t just don't make any sense, how the hell do you know what people think and what actions they would take? I'm sorry man but just reading your last post on the previous page especially totally irked me the wrong way.

salud

ambient-whisper
03-19-2003, 10:40 AM
this image won way back ( right? ) i remember him posting the wireframe for it and it was extremely low. it could easily fit into a game like unreal tourney 2k3.

http://www.raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/jonas_thornqvist1.jpg

lildragon
03-19-2003, 10:44 AM
Precisely Martin, and here's the wireframe

http://www.cgtalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=19251

and the thread

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2328

salud

Krystman
03-19-2003, 11:20 AM
Why do you guys bash Apt so much? He didn't insult anyone, or did you just delete some extremly offensive post I missed.

I agree with him. Sure you could mix Game Art and Classical Challange together but why? I mean, if i read the discussion right, it already happened - there is nothing that would stop me from posting a low poly chara in the classical challange. I won't do it anyway. I like the game art challange the way it is. Everybody has the same restrictions here and the one who wins is the one who shows that he can deal best with them.
I mean why should I bother to optimize my mesh down to some fictional poly limit if all the other guys around me are posting stuff 50 times so heavy.

Oh and the argument with normal mapping doesn't count. If I have a high poly guy, why should I bother to make him lowpoly if I can post the high poly version right away?

heavyness
03-19-2003, 02:11 PM
i think we need our own site...

www.CGgaming.com

if you look at most of the threads in General Discussions and CG News, they're video game based. plus having out own forums and Challenges would be nice. having a huge tutorial section on game mods and low polygon modeling would be sweet.

this is just wishful thinking...

Apt Pupil
03-19-2003, 02:20 PM
Lildragon --> Heheh, hey there lildragon. I take it you disagree:) Sorry I offended you so much. Anyways, I base my opinionions on the results and popularity of where people vote and who they vote on. The classic challenges are the most popular by far, so why put game models in there? From what I read on your interviews with a few contest participants, people like to join these challenges to help advance their skills and to better their portfolios. So why not give aspiring game artists a place where they will be voted on as equals, and where they can work along side others knowing that everyone has the same restraints?

I like Krystman's point and this is most likely how I would think like too: "there is nothing that stops me from posting a low poly chara in the classical challange but I won't do it anyway."

As for that example, I am pretty sure he did not win (I think he came in third after Carny and someone else), and he would definatly not be able to export that model+texture into any type of game engine and have it look anywhere near the same.

lildragon
03-19-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Apt Pupil
As for that example, I am pretty sure he did not win (I think he came in third after Carny and someone else), and he would definatly not be able to export that model+texture into any type of game engine and have it look anywhere near the same.

Besides the point, the point is it's LOW POLY, and let me tell you, you're not helping the cause, I'm leaning more and more to no. What I don't get is why you "game artists" feel you're so isolated? and "not equals" as you so elegantly put it, dude do you know how big the game side of the industry is? I don't think you do or you won't be spewing this BS. Yes I'm jumping on you because you're not making any sense man.

As I said b4 you're not helping the cause, believe that.

salud

Matt-Clark
03-19-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Apt Pupil

Game art is an art in itself and hence, should be treated as such, and if I had to use an example to illustrate my point, any high polygon work from pascal blanche and/or matt clark would "kill, beat, destroy, elliminate, banish and vanquish to the farthest reaches of H--L" any form of game art submitted by an an equilivant professional game artist such as Hawkprey, ether, or bobo_the_seal.


Just for the record I am a game artist. Hi and Low poly modelling are different disciplines, and probably shouldn't be judged under the same criteria.

bentllama
03-19-2003, 04:55 PM
Apt...

while I see your point, and agree with half of what you are saying...I still think that there are more game models out there that have more character and a better feel to them than alot of the high poly submissions in the challenge...

while I agree that there are inherent differences in low vs hi modelling, those differences are mostly in the technique and workflow...not the form and character

take KingMob's last entry for the LOTR challenge...it could have been done low-poly with bumps, etc and looked the same...and he won, did he not?

and in regards to Matt's comment about judging criteria...is it not the feel of the model that we judge?...at least, that was my perception...

I am not trying to be a jerk here, just displaying my humble opinion :) I am all for the advancement of game art in the 3d community...and to break down the barriers and stigmas that film and tv artists have against game art

spakman
03-19-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by lildragon
What I don't get is why you "game artists" feel you're so isolated? and "not equals" as you so elegantly put it, dude do you know how big the game side of the industry is?

salud

It's not a case of not being equals. It is not a case of hi-poly vs low poly. It's a case of realtime vs fmv. This is something I don't think is reallly understood, and most likely not taken into consideration during these "game contests."

As soon as the word "game" is attached to art, its like there's this automatic assumption that you want low polygon models. When really all you want is clean polygon models.

It's been my contention all along that just showing a static low poly model doesn't cut it. Show examples of normal mapping models like Doom III - or show some other LOD concepts.

I don't want to look at low poly work. That's not game art.

I want to see an understanding of what is to come in realtime. I want to see hi medium and lo poly LODs of the same art in these contests. I want to see them in different poses.

Game art is realtime art. Otherwise it's just a bunch of lowpoly still-lifes.

lildragon
03-19-2003, 07:45 PM
Well put spakman :thumbsup:

salud

Apt Pupil
03-19-2003, 09:59 PM
I certainly agree with the points mentioned here that game art and cinema art should be and can be judged as equals, however, what would be the point? Yes, Kingmob could have lowered that nice looking model down to the specs for a game model, but then, he would be the only one in that comp who did. And people who enjoy watching and creating game art would have to first find that singular thread to find only one game model being made. This is what I mean by "isolated."

All I am saying is that it would be really neat to have a place where you can enter, and make friends with like minded individuals who gather to these contests to belong to a community. Personally, when I enter either the vfx, classical, 2d or animation challenges, immidiatly upon entering, I feel like I am surrounded by people who thoroughly enjoy this topic of art. Therefor, I believe there is enough of a distinction and an interest between the two (high vs low poly) to merit a forum of their own.

Please, let us game artists have a place where we can take part with like minded individuals, have our own winners page with the title 'game art', and let us have a place where we can view fellow artists and enhance our skills by being surrounded by people who are pushing the envolope on how to best create a piece under specific restraints common to all. That is after all, why we join these contests, to better our skills, and to learn from others.

I had better shut up now:p Otherwise, the amount of effort cgtalk has given to these contest is nothing short of spectacular, and I would just like to say, well done. I'll be participating in future challenges with or without a game section. But . . . a game section would be . . . cool:)

:wavey:

spakman
03-20-2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Matt Clark
Just for the record I am a game artist. Hi and Low poly modelling are different disciplines, and probably shouldn't be judged under the same criteria.

Really? What happens then when you need both Hi and Low (or more) to represent one character, in a game? Say for LODs, or for normal mapping? Do you get different artists to build each level of detail?

FWIW I no longer read any thread that has the word "low" in the title.

If we are going to do a legitimate game art competition, then I want to see entries where the first iteration does not care about polycount, only topology for articulation. These first posts should be what the artist envisions. Could be a 20K model for all I care.

The trick, is can you then take that 20K model, and make it real clean. Can you show multiple resolutions of that model. Can you wow me by taking it down 3k? Does your model have the chops to move in realtime, or is it forever built to look good to just one pose?

Krystman
03-20-2003, 06:15 PM
Just because Hi and Low poly modelling are different disciplines, it doesn't mean that they can't be both performed by the same guy. And still, there are hi poly people out there who can't do low poly and other way round.

But somehow I don't understand what you are trying to point out, sorry :shrug: :wavey:

spakman
03-20-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Krystman
Just because Hi and Low poly modelling are different disciplines...

But somehow I don't understand what you are trying to point out, sorry :shrug: :wavey:

They may be different techniques, but they are certainly one discipline: digital sculpting. And in the case of games, digital sculpting for realtime user-controlled motion.

I guess what I'm getting at, is for me to take any entry seriously, I want to know the artist can do the hi poly too, and preferably first. There should be some guidelines for entries. To give legitimacy to a "Game Art" contest, how about starting off with something like this?

1. At least two versions of the same model: One 10k or over, one between 3k and 1.5K

2. examples of articulation. Poses - what you think your character may do in your game - to see how solid your topology is in different situations, and extreme poses.

So far, as cool as much of the art in this forum is, I'm not feelin the "game" part of these art contests in their current form. Certainly not enough to get its own spot.

peace d=^)

ehpawk
03-21-2003, 07:05 AM
hell yes..

i bet game art challenges will be almost as popular as the cg's challenges with some good ideas of things to model

please dont let 1 persons opinion effect the entire vote lildragon

anyways.. i would much rather enter a gameart challenge.. think of the sponsors you could pull together.. tons of industry professionals come to this forum.

its easily one of the best modelling forums on the net, if not the best..

fortner
03-21-2003, 07:12 AM
call me selfish, but i kinda like how this is part of a smaller community, and not so publized. It doesn't have nearly as much expsure, but that is ok with me.

bentllama
03-21-2003, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by ehpawk
its easily one of the best modelling forums on the net, if not the best..

it is users like you that make it the best :)

spakman
03-21-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by ehpawk
hell yes..

i bet game art challenges will be almost as popular as the cg's challenges with some good ideas of things to model

please dont let 1 persons opinion effect the entire vote lildragon

anyways.. i would much rather enter a gameart challenge.. think of the sponsors you could pull together.. tons of industry professionals come to this forum.

its easily one of the best modelling forums on the net, if not the best..

I'm not sayin no. But let's be on the real. Show some true skillz.
Don't settle for a "game art" contest cos you cant handle the hi rez.

If you can't handle something like this:
http://crytek.com/screenshots/index.php?sx=polybump&px=poly_03.jpg

then why enter a contest with something like this?
http://crytek.com/screenshots/index.php?sx=polybump&px=poly_01.jpg

(Note: I'm in no way affilliated with this crew. It wouldn't work with our stuff anyway.)

Show me both, or show me someone else who can.

L8 d=^)

bentllama
03-21-2003, 04:33 PM
speaking of hi res...

check this out...

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50838

booyah.

spakman
03-21-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by bentllama
speaking of hi res...

check this out...

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50838

booyah.

Werd. Now you cats dig? I was going easy on ya'll by requiring 10K min on the hi res ARTICULATED model, (even though I've repeatedly said I don't care if it's over 20k)

peace d=^)

Adder
03-21-2003, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by spakman
I'm not sayin no. But let's be on the real. Show some true skillz.
Don't settle for a "game art" contest cos you cant handle the hi rez.

If you can't handle something like this:
http://crytek.com/screenshots/index.php?sx=polybump&px=poly_03.jpg

then why enter a contest with something like this?
http://crytek.com/screenshots/index.php?sx=polybump&px=poly_01.jpg

(Note: I'm in no way affilliated with this crew. It wouldn't work with our stuff anyway.)

Show me both, or show me someone else who can.



I thought these forums and contest were to help ppl to learn how to do this kind of stuff so if i could create the examples shown (which i cant) then there would be no need for me to enter this type on con in the first place.

And as for the last comment (Show me both, or show me someone else who can.) how is that spos to encourage ppl to enter and learn more? should i just give up and forget the whole 3d thing cos i cant create both those examples?

I think we are all moving away from the (fun) and the (learning) part of these comps.

muckywetnoodle
03-21-2003, 08:07 PM
"I'm not sayin no. But let's be on the real. Show some true skillz.
Don't settle for a "game art" contest cos you cant handle the hi rez."

What???!!!

sanhueza
03-21-2003, 08:33 PM
Whoa! This discussion seems to be getting very ugly, and far from the original intent of this competition when we started it: to have fun. Personally, I don't care that much whether this Game Challenge becomes official or not. It would be cool, but if it blends in too much with the existing Challenges, some of us might find it more enjoyable to continue the Game Challenge here on this forum as we have it now.

High-res and Realtime modeling (and texturing, animating, lighting, etc.) are simply two different disciplines. You can't really say that one is "better" or "harder" than the other, they simply require a different set of skills, restrictions, and mind sets. And because of that, I feel that hi-res and low-res would need to be judged in seperate categories.

I totally understand if the moderators don't want to go through the hassle of creating and maintaining a seperate forum for a Game Challenge. In that case, like I said, maybe we should all save ourselves a big headache and continue things as they are here. Which I really don't think would be a bad thing. The Game Challenges have been running great, with this latest one being the best so far! I'm disappointed that I haven't been able to enter myself as I had been working on art tests for several weeks, but it makes me feel proud that the Comp is still going strong and I plan to enter in future Comps.

That's my 2 cents. Want a receipt?

- Me

Adder
03-21-2003, 08:41 PM
well said :thumbsup:

lildragon
03-21-2003, 08:45 PM
This thread has run its course, and spakman that was just wrong man.

And just some clarification for those who just don't know, these challenges are very much fun and educational as they always were, just ask any of the current challengers right now. Or maybe read some of the inspirational stories I have in my inbox.

enjoy the weeken... and game artists, do me a favor, stop alienating yourselves from everyone else, it's just not the case.

My decision to follow.

salud