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RobertoOrtiz
03-18-2007, 01:26 PM
Post your questions here for the MOVIE ICON Mini challenge.
Ill answer them as I get them.
-R

Diabolos
03-18-2007, 05:12 PM
I was just wondering if you were going to clean off the HMC 7 threads - like you usually do?

D,

Guy In Rubber Suit
03-18-2007, 07:14 PM
Are we only restricted to the movie icons in the provided list?


Also do we have to pose the characters from an exact scene from the movie, or can we put them in our own pose, or just have them remain neutral?


If the characters go through a phsycial appearance change, can we mix and match their wardrobe? Specifically I'm going to use Travis Bickle and I really love the scene where Robert de Niro is talking to himself in the mirror, but I want to use Bickle's iconic and highly reconizable mohawk hairstyle for that. He didn't have that at that point in the film.

AndreKling
03-18-2007, 07:43 PM
Multiples entries should hv multiples threads or should we use the same one?
What is the best render category? is it best camera angle? best lighting? whats define a better render, lights angles and shading? and the best overall entry is based only on the modelling ( since its a modelling challenge ) or all the other areas affects the best overall entry?
Andre

Diabolos
03-18-2007, 10:12 PM
IF you do a FULL BODY representation you need to do 3 sets of Orthographic renderings:




ONE FOR THE BODY

One set with props (guns, cloaks, Power Loaders)
One set without props





ONE FOR THE HEAD

One set without props




What??? we are being judged on the body as well? I was going to cut some corners and make sure the armor was detailed and the face of course......hhhmmmm. You are really testing us this time :)

D,

RobertoOrtiz
03-19-2007, 03:26 AM
Are we only restricted to the movie icons in the provided list?


Yes you are restricted to the icons on the list

Also do we have to pose the characters from an exact scene from the movie, or can we put them in our own pose, or just have them remain neutral?
You have total freedom in how you pose a character, so a neutral pose just fine. Having said that, some character would look better in Iconic poses.

If the characters go through a phsycial appearance change, can we mix and match their wardrobe? Specifically I'm going to use Travis Bickle and I really love the scene where Robert de Niro is talking to himself in the mirror, but I want to use Bickle's iconic and highly reconizable mohawk hairstyle for that. He didn't have that at that point in the film.

Well you can base the character on any look in the film. If you want to mix an match fine by me.

RobertoOrtiz
03-19-2007, 03:29 AM
Multiples entries should hv multiples threads or should we use the same one?

Yes for each entry there should be multiple hv threads

What is the best render category? is it best camera angle? best lighting? whats define a better render, lights angles and shading? and the best overall entry is based only on the modelling ( since its a modelling challenge ) or all the other areas affects the best overall entry?
Andre

Best overall entry is the best things like "attention to detail", best likeness, best shading etc.

Ill explain further on the thread.

RobertoOrtiz
03-19-2007, 03:30 AM
What??? we are being judged on the body as well? I was going to cut some corners and make sure the armor was detailed and the face of course......hhhmmmm. You are really testing us this timeWell the entry does not have to be COMPLETLY naked. It just have to have the props off.

KrakenCMT
03-19-2007, 08:27 PM
How much does the topology of the model play a part in the judging? I mean if the model looks excellent when rendered, but doesn't have traditional topology for a human figure, will it be counted against them?

RobertoOrtiz
03-19-2007, 08:32 PM
How much does the topology of the model play a part in the judging? I mean if the model looks excellent when rendered, but doesn't have traditional topology for a human figure, will it be counted against them?

Good question, for this challenge topology WILL NOT be a issue. We will do future challenges where this will be a big deal (more on that later)

-R

Diabolos
03-19-2007, 08:37 PM
Could you please ellaborate for the impatient. I am about to start on the head, and I am not sure what you mean....(a clean looped mesh?)?

Thanks,

D,

RobertoOrtiz
03-19-2007, 09:28 PM
Try to model as clean as possible, but apperance is what takes precedence in this one.

Have fun!
-R

Vicktorious
03-20-2007, 07:55 AM
Sorry if this was said before, I didn't see it.


I'm curious as to the importance of the movie listed. Say in a character that has many movies - King Arthur - Are you only really concerned with the character and using the movie for reference? Or must we only use the King Arthur from Excalibur instead of using the version from the movie King Arthur. Reason I ask is I'd like to do one on him as he's my favorite Legend character, but I liked the way he was portrayed in the most recent movie the best. Plus reference images would be of higher quality and higher quantity with the more recent movie.

AndreKling
03-20-2007, 09:50 AM
Hey Roberto, if an artist wants to make 2 or more models, does he has to start from zero on the second model, or can he use the first model as a base mesh? I guess he has to do all the work again, for the rules says that no base mesh is allowd, but since the base for the first was made after the challenge starts i kinda thought it would be nice to ask.
Andre

RobertoOrtiz
03-20-2007, 01:36 PM
I'm curious as to the importance of the movie listed. Say in a character that has many movies - King Arthur - Are you only really concerned with the character and using the movie for reference? Or must we only use the King Arthur from Excalibur instead of using the version from the movie King Arthur. Reason I ask is I'd like to do one on him as he's my favorite Legend character, but I liked the way he was portrayed in the most recent movie the best. Plus reference images would be of higher quality and higher quantity with the more recent movie

The character has to be based on the movie character portrayed on the list. Think of it this way, you have been subcontracted to sculpt the King Arthur character from the 80's film.

But I promise to have in mind Clive Owen for future challenges.:)

Hey Roberto, if an artist wants to make 2 or more models, does he has to start from zero on the second model, or can he use the first model as a base mesh? I guess he has to do all the work again, for the rules says that no base mesh is allowd, but since the base for the first was made after the challenge starts i kinda thought it would be nice to ask.
Andre

Great question!
I dont see why not. After all the core base model was started AFTER the challenge was announced.

gaiXyn
03-20-2007, 02:38 PM
hmmm....so am I allowed to let's say model Ripley in Alien 3 instead of the first Alien?....for ex:....there's 3parts to Blade....are we only restricted to do that character from that particular movie, or can I use say references from Blade II to help in Blade I?.....I guess I should of asked this before making my thread...ah well....:)

personally, I like Ripley in alienResurrection, she looks moreRefined....:D

ltr-

whoknows
03-21-2007, 12:22 PM
Hey!

I want to model Hannibal Lector. His muzzle thing, is it okay if its part of the busts mesh (i.e. the bust and muzzle are one object)?

RobertoOrtiz
03-21-2007, 02:29 PM
I want to model Hannibal Lector. His muzzle thing, is it okay if its part of the busts mesh (i.e. the bust and muzzle are one object)?

You are supposed to sculpt the whole face, and then add over it the muzzle.
the final render for your piece requires that you reder it twice. Once with props (like the muzzle) and once without the prop.

hmmm....so am I allowed to let's say model Ripley in Alien 3 instead of the first Alien?....for ex:....there's 3parts to Blade....are we only restricted to do that character from that particular movie, or can I use say references from Blade II to help in Blade I?.....I guess I should of asked this before making my thread...ah well....:)

personally, I like Ripley in alienResurrection, she looks moreRefined....:D

You should stick with her Aliens look. The reason is simple, I want people to stick with the movie that made the character Iconic.

Diabolos
03-21-2007, 02:45 PM
So it's totally cheating IMO if one just projects the image of the actor on the model (which I feel a lot of people are doing lately [not at HMC just in general]), but how do you do it - get the texture that is? Some actors have birth marks and moles and things that make them recognisable, but there are a ton of actors with out any markings in the challenge. Do you just have to nail a good skin texture?


D,

KrakenCMT
03-21-2007, 05:19 PM
Exactly Diabolos. Totally agree. I think if you want a likeness, the model needs to drive it. That's why the rule was added that the untextured version is rendered and shown - to make sure that the model is the focus and not the texturing which can often times hide the flaws in the model since sometimes the texture has lighting/shading in it from the photo it was taken from.

Here's just a few ways of adding the texture.
1. You can paint it yourself in Photoshop.
2. Stitch together photos of yourself and warp them to proportions of the model (eyebrows and skin tone would probably need to change to match actor.)
3. Take several different skin patches in PS and clone them into a full size texture much like the Kris Kosta ZBrush technique.
4. You can take the ultra easy fast paced production route and use front and side photos of the actual actor to create it. Nothing against this method for a deadline driven production, but this is a 6 week challenge....

ssloan
03-22-2007, 12:53 PM
probably a dumb question but what is a bust?

RobertoOrtiz
03-22-2007, 01:04 PM
probably a dumb question but what is a bust?

There are no dumb questions in my book.
A bust is a sculptured, painted, drawn, or engraved representation of the upper part of the human figure, esp. a portrait sculpture showing only the head and shoulders of the subject.
(From dictionary.com)

The sculptor can model either a head, shoulders or anything above the waist of the character that he has selected.

Here are some cool examples:
http://www.hotmovieprops.com/the-matrix-busts-c-152_153_156.html
http://www.comicstatues.com/statues-busts-props-list-22_26.html

-R

RobertoOrtiz
03-22-2007, 01:07 PM
Exactly Diabolos. Totally agree. I think if you want a likeness, the model needs to drive it. That's why the rule was added that the untextured version is rendered and shown - to make sure that the model is the focus and not the texturing which can often times hide the flaws in the model since sometimes the texture has lighting/shading in it from the photo it was taken from.

Here's just a few ways of adding the texture.
1. You can paint it yourself in Photoshop.
2. Stitch together photos of yourself and warp them to proportions of the model (eyebrows and skin tone would probably need to change to match actor.)
3. Take several different skin patches in PS and clone them into a full size texture much like the Kris Kosta ZBrush technique.
4. You can take the ultra easy fast paced production route and use front and side photos of the actual actor to create it. Nothing against this method for a deadline driven production, but this is a 6 week challenge....

All please Listen to this man, he is 100% right on the nose.

-R

sicean
03-23-2007, 08:05 PM
pre-made base meshes ARE NOT acceptable. The entries have to be done from scratch.
what about zsphere-generated base meshes? i thought it would be ok, but felt i should ask.

robo3687
03-25-2007, 06:26 AM
i have a question regarding the use of ZBrush....its a bit opinionated but hopefully its valid.

Not everyone has access to ZBrush so straight off there is a divide in the models. Also I don't really consider ZBrush as true "modeling" as you just paint things in and displace them with a cursor. There is no manual cutting of poly's or manipulation of verts in ZBrush and as such I've always viewed it as a bit of an "easy way out".

Don't get me wrong...its a great tool....but in a challenge area where the focus is on modeling, shouldn't people be encouraged to try and achieve as much as they can 'in model', instead of creating a low res thing and then polishing the rest of in ZB?

Not that I'm saying we should ban ZBrush from being used, I wouldn't be that ridiculous, I guess I just want to know if those of us who don't have ZBrush will be given a level standing and chance when the time comes to vote.

i.e. someone modeling 50 wrinkles in a face or someone just painting them in in ZB....the former would show greater modeling skill IMHO...

KrakenCMT
03-26-2007, 04:33 AM
First of all, any entree should say upfront whether they've used ZBrush in their workflow. That way the judges could take that into consideration. I'm sure everyone here has seen some awesome models in the past created pre-ZBrush.

I don't think that ZBrush magically creates any skill that someone doesn't already have. To be able to "just paint in wrinkles" takes more than just being able to hold the wacom pen. If you suck at poly modeling, ZBrush or Mudbox won't make you any better. It's the time and effort you put in to learn to perceive the 3d form that will enable you to push individual vertices or "paint" the displacements to realize what's in your imagination and become really good.

I think that whether you use ZBrush or not, the level of skill displayed will be apparent to those who realy know their stuff as I think the judges should. And the "Z factor" will become much less of a factor.

robo3687
03-26-2007, 05:54 AM
thanks for your thoughts Kraken, I guess I just feel that a modeling challenge should have the focus on actually modelling details etc as opposed to painting heavy displacement maps (ie starting from a 2x sub-d box and finishing with a perfectly sculpted head). The use of zbrush for things like skin bump and fine wrinkles, scars etc. is fine it's just using it for the majority of the model is what bothers me....

Goram666
03-26-2007, 01:35 PM
sorry for the silly question.
the deadline for post the renderings for the challenge?

thanks

gaiXyn
03-26-2007, 02:05 PM
First of all, any entree should say upfront whether they've used ZBrush in their workflow. That way the judges could take that into consideration. I'm sure everyone here has seen some awesome models in the past created pre-ZBrush.

I don't think that ZBrush magically creates any skill that someone doesn't already have. To be able to "just paint in wrinkles" takes more than just being able to hold the wacom pen. If you suck at poly modeling, ZBrush or Mudbox won't make you any better. It's the time and effort you put in to learn to perceive the 3d form that will enable you to push individual vertices or "paint" the displacements to realize what's in your imagination and become really good.

I think that whether you use ZBrush or not, the level of skill displayed will be apparent to those who realy know their stuff as I think the judges should. And the "Z factor" will become much less of a factor.

I second that....skill doesn't come with the program.....efficiency Maybe.....but not skill.....skill comes from the artist....personally, I don't mind folks usingZbrush, Mudbox or the like.....in the end, it blowsDown to skill and observation.....

judging should be done on the modeling...not the texturing....and maybe lighting b/c you have to be able to lilt yourModel well to show it off properly....if you're going to texture...it shouldn't be used to create the wrinkles, dents, scratches and whatNots....those are for the modeling period......displacements are fine b/c alot of them are created from the highRez mesh anyway....which had to be modeled to that level, then a displacementMap was extracted from it.......

I understand yourPoint robo3687, but if there's not skill, nothing will come from it anyway.....


ltr-

robo3687
03-27-2007, 11:34 AM
I wasn't meaning it to sound as though i thought the people using ZBrush were using it as a comensation for a lack of modelling ability. I understand that there has to be some ability involved in order to create the image in ZBrush. But with that being said why can't that ability be used to actually model the full object?

Now I know I'm probably digging myself a hole here but wouldn't you feel even a little bit cheated if you spent about 36 hours over 3 days doing the best work you knew how to do only to have someone pop up and say "oh i threw this together last night from this rough base mesh in ZB", it just doesn't sit right with me in a challenge such as this. Modeling a couple of thousand poly's is different to modeling a few hundered.

I don't know...I'm probably just being unreasonable but maybe for final voting there should be two categories (even if only for modeling) for best zBrush model and best standard model. That way upon entering people will state whether they used Zbrush or not and those who don't have access to it will still have a chance of winning something.

There can still be the overall best model (for both ZB and standard models), I just think those of us without ZBrush should be able to have an equal opportunity...

I'm annoyed with myself for carrying on like this but i just needed to get it out of my head....i was goin crazy....lol

gaiXyn
03-27-2007, 12:57 PM
I wasn't meaning it to sound as though i thought the people using ZBrush were using it as a comensation for a lack of modelling ability. I understand that there has to be some ability involved in order to create the image in ZBrush. But with that being said why can't that ability be used to actually model the full object?

noWorries.....I knew what you meant man,....Zbrush has beenOut forever....but only a few used it....thereFore...alot of folks using it now, have had some traditional modeling background beforeHand.....and if they haven't, then it's cool too...b/c this could be the newWay all modeling programs are goingTo be......

Now I know I'm probably digging myself a hole here but wouldn't you feel even a little bit cheated if you spent about 36 hours over 3 days doing the best work you knew how to do only to have someone pop up and say "oh i threw this together last night from this rough base mesh in ZB", it just doesn't sit right with me in a challenge such as this. Modeling a couple of thousand poly's is different to modeling a few hundered.

Personally?....notReally...actually, not at all......it's the same thing with Max.. (or Maya, or XSI ) ..I have seen aweSome models come out of Max....but I have also seen someReally bad ones too.....sameProgram....different artist.....if it's time you're worried about....don't be....we have a good amount of time to get this done.....

I don't know...I'm probably just being unreasonable but maybe for final voting there should be two categories (even if only for modeling) for best zBrush model and best standard model. That way upon entering people will state whether they used Zbrush or not and those who don't have access to it will still have a chance of winning something.

naahhh.....I don't think that's needed.....people are going to vote for bestModel reguardless...they don't care too much about which program created it.....if anything...they would giveMore respect to those using old school modeling programs..:) ...

There can still be the overall best model (for both ZB and standard models), I just think those of us without ZBrush should be able to have an equal opportunity...

lol.....dude.....we have an equal opportunity.....if this was a twoWeeks challenge instead....then I might be worried...but not about mySkill or the program I use....but about the time I have to spend on it....and that's another factor...time....and knowledge of the subject....

I'm annoyed with myself for carrying on like this but i just needed to get it out of my head....i was goin crazy....lol

don't be.....it's better to air it out....you don't want to be in the challenge with this on yourMind.....

ltr-

robo3687
03-27-2007, 01:18 PM
thanks again binder, tis good to have someone willing to put up with me and talk it out...lol....but yeah i see your points as well and have decided to just hush up...lol...

i'm gonna put this little 'incident' behind me and try and make the most kick-ass old skool model I can make.....bump maps and all...lol...i'm even going to abandon my mudbox attempts.....wanna see what i can pull out of the old ways...lol....

gaiXyn
03-27-2007, 01:59 PM
noProblem bud....if someOne finishes yesterday....no bigDeal....it doesn't mean they are going to win....and even if they do.....it still doesn't matter b/c hopefully we've gain some knowledge which will make us get better/faster for the next challenge....:)


ltr-

turx
03-27-2007, 02:47 PM
hi robo3687,

I think this challenge is not about modeling speed, It's about being accurate..
1 month is enough for everybody to model a bust.


And, when the topic is accurate modeling zbrush has a big disadvantage because of its camera view.( if you wish to see how my model looks like in zbrush, i can show it =) )

I don't worry about this problem and say something like "it's not fair to use Mudbox for this challenge".
Because by observing the model's proportions on other 3d package for every detailing stage may be a way to cope with this zbrush problem.
For the model i did on zbrush.. I can come up with the same progress in my 3d package by classic modeling methods, maybe three times longer than i did in zbrush. And believe me, there are people around who can model poly-by poly three or more times faster than me.

There is still a lot of time to the end of the challenge. Maybe you'll work more than zbrush and especially mudbox users, but you can still finish your model in 1 month. So still you can win, if your model is accurate enough.


And please don't get mad at zb users, while there are mudbox users around :P

robo3687
03-28-2007, 02:41 AM
strangely enough i think the most time consuming part for me in this challenge isn't going to be the modelling (although it will take up alot of the time) but the rigging and texturing for the final images.....lol

Diabolos
03-28-2007, 09:27 PM
is it even possible to get that kind of fine detail with only maya or am i fighting a losing battle?

I guess I could download a demo of zBrush and follow a tut - we'll see......

D,

Philip-M
03-28-2007, 09:40 PM
is it even possible to get that kind of fine detail with only maya or am i fighting a losing battle?

I guess I could download a demo of zBrush and follow a tut - we'll see......

D,

Possible, to a point. Depending on your machine you can poly smooth your model then sub-d and then us a sculpt geometry tool. Ive found this work. You also want a wire frame off script so u can sculpt without that on ( other wise you wont beable to see anything ).

KrakenCMT
03-28-2007, 09:50 PM
Actually it's very possible. It's much harder, but it can be done. Basically you can just create your own displacement maps with Photoshop as you would any other UV texture map that you line up and paint. Only with the displacement map, you would have to keep updating the map on your model in your 3d app to see the effects. But scales, fine wrinkles, pores, scars, etc... should be able to be done that way. It's a pain though compared to using ZB or MB which creates the grayscale displacement map for you from your sculpting.

Diabolos
03-28-2007, 10:21 PM
...and on that note - I just downloaded zBrush demo and most of the functions have been disabled - lol - just my luck - no export/import. some demo


D,

gaiXyn
03-29-2007, 12:05 PM
is it even possible to get that kind of fine detail with only maya or am i fighting a losing battle?

D,

yep....it's very possible....would probably take longer, but it can be done.....


ltr-

robo3687
03-30-2007, 07:21 AM
now i know roberto said we could do a bust and a full body model....but are we allowed to create multiple bust/full models of the one character.....

with mine i would like to do the following as i progress through the challenge

- just the head (& shoulders too...the traditional bust)
- waist up 1 or 2 poses
- full body, 2 poses (have 2 very specific scenes in mind)


my hope is to have the character rigged so I am able to do this efficiently without having to model 'in pose'...

but yeah....just wondering if this was allowed....

eddieellis
03-30-2007, 07:58 AM
hey Roberto, are you still running the multiple entries catagory, as i would like to do another character or two ?

sicean
03-30-2007, 10:17 PM
diabolos, you might be interested to know that blender now supports sculpt modeling and multi-resolution editing just like zbrush. (blender is free, btw.)

http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-243/sculpt-mode/

yeah, i was surpised too. i'm begining to think i should take a good long look at blender myself.

RobertoOrtiz
04-06-2007, 05:46 PM
hey Roberto, are you still running the multiple entries catagory, as i would like to do another character or two ?

Tell me what you have in mind...
-R

eddieellis
04-09-2007, 08:42 AM
i was thinking of doing the blues Brothers, but ive started on another project now so not to worry :)

phudgey
04-18-2007, 11:26 AM
Hey guys, well i'm late for this challenge but i would like to partake in one, however i always forget about it until it's too late, so i wondered if it were to be possible to get a date that i can put on my calendar for the next challenge? all help apreciated

Fudge

RobertoOrtiz
04-18-2007, 02:17 PM
The current challenge ends on
Wednesday, May 2nd 12:00 PM

The voting thread goes up on the night of
Thursday May 3rd 12:00PM

The results thread goes up the week after
Between May 7 -11

The new challenge will start soon after
Between May 11-15

And the time line will be again
ONE MONTH & TWO WEEKS

Of course all this might info might be subject to changes,
but at least it gives you an idea of the timelines.
Hope this helps
-R

Star-Scream
04-21-2007, 07:55 PM
I've got a qeustion, is it allowed to show the progress or something in another forum?

RobertoOrtiz
04-22-2007, 02:06 PM
I've got a qeustion, is it allowed to show the progress or something in another forum?
Sorry no, but your can mirror the postings of that forum in our thread.

-R

AndreKling
04-23-2007, 05:55 PM
Whait, we arent allowd to create a thread in a different forum to show the work we are doing here? Why is that? i can only assume someone would post in a different forum if they hv friends on that forum and would like to hear feedback from them, its also a great way to divulge the Hardcore Modelling Comps we hv here. so y not?
Andre

RobertoOrtiz
04-23-2007, 06:03 PM
You can post you work in other forums if you wish (after all it is YOUR work)

I just ask for a WIP thread in the Hardcore Modeling Challenge (http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=208) forum.
And please do as much guerrilla marketing of our little corner of the internet.

the more people we get in our next challenge, the more fun it is for all.

-R

morphius-ms
04-25-2007, 09:30 PM
ok here is the thing... I am working on texturing my model... (which by your standards means it should be done)... which is understandable... I for one was all for renders of unshaded models....

here is the question...

Would hair from maya fur be considered modeled on... or textured on...

ie. would maya fur be considered cheating for the modeling challenge... meaning we would have to model the hair straight onto the model [like this]...

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m28/morphius_ms/_abArtifactsAddCastBust.jpg

or would it be ok to use maya fur... or another hair technique...)?

just out of curiosity... because hair can be made either way

KrakenCMT
04-25-2007, 10:36 PM
Personally, my take on that is whether you model it as part of the head or model it seperately as hair guides, it's still modeling.

morphius-ms
04-26-2007, 02:17 AM
well i guess that is true... I'll just go with my original plan of using maya to model the hair

AndreKling
05-02-2007, 06:00 PM
Hey Roberto, i hv some questions regarding the way i should submit the final entry... is it ok to do the orthos from a different pose? the thing is that i modelled a horse for my character, so its suposed to be a prop, and if i do the render without props from the same pose, the character will be sitting in the air ( quite weird ).
My character uses an armor ( and i dont hv the underneath body anymore ), so is it ok if i do the render without props with the armor, but whitout the cloack, helmet and sword?
Using the image you showed as an example of a model without texture, i assume its ok to hv specularity, is it?
thnx for your time, im almost done now.
Andre

morphius-ms
05-06-2007, 03:37 AM
ok here is the thing... ( I figured that the whole debate shouldn't go on the voting thread) ... and this is more a question neway.

I do believe that the challenges should be focused on modeling, and not texturing and shading... So here is the thing... the next challenge is animals, and some of those animals are mammals (assuming that we are doing mammals)...

Here is the thing... each mammal has hair, so would the hair that I did on my model (Hannibal Lecter) on this challenge be accepted (also if we use maya fur) or would it have to be like an actual bust (or statue) like the picture on a few posts ago? This is what is confusing me.

I understand that either way is considered modeling, but if we use maya fur, should we consider using a pre determined color? but with the correct hair style?

I would like to hear from Roberto(since he runs this forum) on this as well, though the reason I am posting, instead of PMing Roberto I would also like to hear what the other participants think as well.

Any ideas?

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