Looking for feedback

[joeym4130]

I dont know if its just my pc here @ work, but I'm getting all these weird artifacts trying to view the .avi

[TechnicallyArtistic]

Anybody else having trouble with it? I'll repost it as something else if so. Plays fine on my comp, but I've got so many codecs loaded on this thing, it's hard for me to know what a good common codec would be to use that's small in size.

[TechnicallyArtistic]

Ok, after going through some posts in this thread it doesn't seem like many people get comments. But on looking at this myself I have a thought on the first jump. I have the hands go up and drag and whip down as he comes back down. But that directs the eye up to the top of the character. Not a big deal for just animation, but as a game clip, you're trying to get the character to jump over somthing with that animation. Soi should I bring the hands down a bit to be able to keep focus more of the feet? I mean that's the goal of the jump, and I'm wondering if the animation detracts from the playability because it pulls your eye away from where it should be.

Or do you think once there is actualy an object there moving under him that the eye will be drawn to that more?

Comments on that? Any one?

[chiodo]

no problem watching the animation here with quicktime..
i've had a similiar problem before when rendering something
from maya with cinepak. media player would show these artifacts,
quicktime player would play it properly. maybe try render
it uncompressed and then encode it with a mainstream codec
like soren..

guess that's gonna be some kind of a n00b comment, but here it goes:
i think the major problem is, that the weight is not very balanced.
the fox can bust a somersault in midair, but can't even jump as high
as a normal human being? he just feels too heavy during the jump
compared to the rest of the animation... ah.. and the arms,
legs and tail are all swinging a lot - compared to them, the head
is more of a static one. you might want to try to get some swinging
in there aswell to make it all harmonious. but who knows, could
also overdo the thing, but i think it's worth a try.
i like how he catches himself after the somersault.
all in all, very nicely animated!

did you model/rig the fox yourself?
is it for any specific purpose?

peace,
chris.

[joeym4130]

Aye, it was watching it with a .avi player that was the problem.. Cinepak, now thats an old codec! haha

I'm not too familiar w/ goals of game animations, but from just an animation standpoint, one thing I noticed was the commpression of the character before the first jump seems to be not enough. When i scrub thru it, it feels like i want him to crouch down more in the hips and knee because of the height of the jump, to give him more *POP* as he takes off from the ground level, and make the height of the jump look more convincing. Currently his hips seem to stay on the same plane and he simple bends at the spine. I think you need to bring his hips down (which will bend the knee of that leg still in contact /w the ground) and give the spine more of a curve to make a more convincing compression.

I think the second jump has more of the pop from the ground that I would like to see in the first.

I dont have any problem being distracted by his hands or anything, I actually like it, and it makes it look more natural. Hope some of this helps

[TechnicallyArtistic]

So I uploaded a new clip here as a quick time movie so people can scrub through. I added a bit of a background to get something moving with him. (It was great to see that without a floor while animating, I eyeballed the feet at the right place. Only had to adjust a couple toes and heels passing through the ground but the pace was about perfect.) I've added a roll, but I just finished blocking it out and haven't cleaned it up yet, so it's still a little choppy and the tail doesn't follow through.

I had issues with that first jump too, and I couldn't put my finger on what it was. I lowered the shoulders, hips and head a little more on the anticipation and brought the tail up some more on the up motion. I think it was too low and it made the jump look not as high. As well I delayed the extension of the legs on the landing to give a bit more hang time. I think it looks a little better now. All and all really like a shift in a frame in timing, but some times that all it takes.

Anyway, I'll keep working on it. Let me know if you guys see anything.

http://home.comcast.net/~evil-the-cat/cliprender.mov (http://home.comcast.net/%7Eevil-the-cat/cliprender.mov)

[TechnicallyArtistic]

Hadn't had time to work on this for a while. Added the roll completed now. I'll probably have him stop, do some climbing next. Maybe some lifting after that. Cover the basics. Then maybe more interactive stuff, like pick up a staff or something.

http://home.comcast.net/~evil-the-cat/cliprender.mov (http://home.comcast.net/%7Eevil-the-cat/cliprender.mov)

[bstout]

sweet stuff.

no anticipation on the start of the run.
is this a trax editor (non linear animation editor) issue ?
this looks like game animation. is the lack of anticipation a game issue?

nose hits way too hard on the down.

long jump: keep the leen in linger. delay the full extension a few frames longer. make the transition more pronunced when the legs go from behind to infront.
bring the right leg into the tuck sooner.

flip. tighter tuck. lead with the legs out of the flip.


the shoulder roll is mixed in with a side roll.
is that a technique based in study?
a shoulder roll (how you open the move) is much straighter on.
a side roll is more at 90 degrees from the beginning.
use the back foot as a more coherent block to protect the stiking foot.

pick one and clarify. unless its based on a technique you have studied well and i just don;t know the technique.

if its a shoulder roll, ditch the strike and focus on the tuck.

nice stuff, keep it up.

[TechnicallyArtistic]

The run just jumps right into it. The theory of the reel is to make it like loop clips strung together. The run is just a cycle i'm copyng frames from and then putting the actions inbetween. I should be using trax, but I hate animation sets and avoid them when I can. Use it all the time at work though.

The head down, I think I agree. I was messing with the head bob earlier thinking it looked too hard... Actually, i might have messed with that between posting that and now. But I agree and I'll work on that.

On the long jump, would you say make the lean in longer before or after the jump? And on exagerating the transition of the back leg, maybe kick out the leg forward more would you say? Like knee closer to the chest kinda deal?

You have any refference on the flip? My experience is with free runners, that the tuck is tighter if your doing the flip in place, but if you are doing it while running and diving it seems like the body extends out farther. The head may need to be tucked a little more though. I know I've seen it where people tuck into a little ball with their knees beside their chest, but it's a fairly different flip and Iduno if i've seen anybody really do it while running and then keep running without a big plant. The knees seem to come in closer to me if the legs aren't going to keep moving, but if the person is going to keep moving after the land, they seem to stay more extended in the air. But that's just my observations so far.
Here's an example video of jumps I was refferencing to. It may be that I was looking at something falling higher from ground level though.
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=6411367370124365380&hl=en

On the roll, I was doing an evasion style roll that we do in Ninjutsu. We do side rolls and forward rolls as well that can include strikes that change up the positioning a little, but generaly it goes across the back. I find rolling like that softens the impact and lets you get up and run faster. Plus, it accomidates the tail. But we have quite a number of variations on rolls with and without strikes.

So you realize, I'm not discounting any of this information. If it looks off to anybody still, I'd want to know and shift things a little bit. Just trying to get specific here. I'm also trying to figure out the balance between realistic and what looks good. Like I think I did have the legs extended more on the down of the jump, but in motion, overall it made the jump look much shorter in hight like he wasn't jumping over anything. But I didn't want it nearly as high as the flip jump Anyway, gonna go tweek a bit now. More info is always a plus.

[DavidWeinstein]

Sean,

This is cool stuff man. This is just the kind of work you should show if you want to break into video games! What you have going on already is not bad at all... i dig it! And this is coming from a gamer myself - and someone who used to work in games. There's a couple of things you should take a look at tho. Check it out. The RUN CYCLE is the most important animation in my opinion when animating game characters! Because your character is going to RUNNING the entire time. You want the run to look as PLEASING as possible!

1) the run cycle is pretty decent. I think you should look at the feet abit more. The push off looks good - but when the feet come forwards to plant on the ground you need to get some more ROTATIONS in there. Bend the toe down towards the ground - then rotate it up as it swings forwards - overlap it - then allow the heel to make contact - then overlap the foot/toe down a frame or two later. Work that out - it will make your cycle look more animated and smoother.

2) when your character jumps. You have some anticipation going on which is nice. But you need to correct it abit more and also push the action to get it to read better. Try this. You have your character start leanign down and you overlapped the head/chest GOOD! But then when your character starts to leap up... you never overlapped your characters chest and head down! Why not! Try it out. As he srpings up drag the chest and head behind at first and then have it come up abit later. Try it out... i think you get a cool fleshy and lose feeling going on in your Fox character.
Thr arms when he jumps are keyed and posed on the same frames throughout! Doh! Try to break them up! Blending back into the run is hard - but you have to break it up somehow. When he's coming back down to the ground his arms/hands are in the SAME pose... get something alittle more dynamic. Think comic book style.

3) Front flip looks cool. Again get some more anticipation. SQUASH that character down to the floor and STRETCH him out when he JUMPS! Get some more TUCK in the air. Have him tuck - and then unroll out. It will look pretty cool. Again - try to break up the arms/feet. Everything is keyed on the same frames. His landing is MY FAVORITE part of the whole animation. The way he lands - puts his hand on the floor - and swings his other hand forwards like his almost lost his balance - but ran out of it is GREAT! This is the peice that sold me. I would allow some more body/head overlap delay going back into the cycle. Don't be in such a rush to get back into the cycle. I know in games you want to be back into your cycle QUICK! But for animation purposes let it feel SMOOTH! The programmers will make it work. **if they are good :)**

4) Tuck roll on the floor is pretty good. The only thing that looks alittle wierd is that when he comes out - and gets back onto his feet. His tail rotates screen right without any overlap or drag. It would overlap and drag THEN whip out screen right. You know what I mean? You know how to overlap things... I can see it in your movements... don't get lazy with the tail! His tail is more important then you think - there's so much character and peformance you can get out of that tail. Take advantage of that!

Overall - its a nice test! Video game people will be into this for sure. Your showing us that you can blend - and animate at the same time. Good stuff! If you can polish off these actions and get that RUN CYCLE perfect... I think this one is going on the demo reel for sure! Your already on the right tracks - keep that up brother.

Game Reference:

"Jax and Daxter". In my opinion Naughty Dog does some of the best cartoony video game animation. Do a search on youtube.com and take a look if you don't already have one of these awsome games. They really know how to push poses and get things looking smooth and fleshy.

"Prince of Persia: Sands of Time". Awsome game and Awsome animation! More realistic then Jax and Daxter but just as cool!

-D

[TechnicallyArtistic]

Ok. So a small update here. I focused on just cleaning stuff up a bit before moving on. I tried to address everything you guys mentioned. The only thing I don't think I got to was the tail after the roll. I never felt that looked quite right but had a bit of trouble figuring that motion out as it was.

I added a bit of secondary animation in the noes and ears. I think I over did the nose in the run cycle maybe....

If you see anything I didn't quite hit or still needs tweeking, let me know. Also, tell me what is working well now too or what I did get right

http://home.comcast.net/~evil-the-cat/cliprender.mov (http://home.comcast.net/%7Eevil-the-cat/cliprender.mov)

[bstout]

like the addition of the ears.

i still think there should be more tuck on the flip.
i checked the free running link ( i love that stuff, actually saw someone trying to learn/practice it in the playground the other day )
on most of the flips, it seems they bring the knees to about 90 degrees - not to chest - as you point out, but more than the 20-30 you have.
the only one that looks to me like it has as little tuck as you are going for is the series of handsprings one after the other. he keeps moving but straight into another handspring, not a run.

the evasive roll - cool as i said in my first post as long as its true to a style its OK. we don;t practice that particular roll in my school so i had to question it. but its based on something real that you know so stick with it. for the tail all i can do is repeat what David Weinstein said, " His tail rotates screen right without any overlap or drag. It would overlap and drag THEN whip out screen right." - it seems like he's right to me.

its been a while since i did a run and checked the video footage on it, but i seem to recall the passing position on a run having a fairly bent leg, its the lowest part of the run- you might want to check that and see if you want a little more squash/compression there.

nice work. on hte whole i think its great quality.
can't wait to see what the fox does next...

[BigMouth]

Overall the animation is good and it's perfect quality of cartoony-styled games. The animations can easily fit in the world of titles like Jack & Daxter, Sly Cooper, etc..., and it's competantly done to preserve heavily used looping anims and anims that start-finish from the same pose.

The run:
The arms are tad stiff and don't feel that have convincing 2ndary motion.
Lack of anticipation before the run (but in games this wouldn't be an issue).

His center of mass doesn't dip down enough at the lowest trougph of the curve. It takes away from the illusion of weight from his body.

Overall, it's not too shabby.

The Jump:

It almost appears that both feet are hitting the ground at the same time. When I view it frame by frame I can see that they aren't, but it could use just a little bit more offset.

The arms flail in a slightly odd manner, but it is an odd character.

On the frame where his feet contact the ground, his center of mass is off balance. You can correct this by moving his COM forward or making his feet land closer to him.

Overall, it's pretty good.

The flip:

My only critic is when he lands and recovers himself, the weight pushing off the arm isn't all too convincing.

Overall: Pretty tight.

The roll:

I understand where you would going with this. A more 'aikido' styled shoulder roll. I really like this one and know that animating a roll like that is decievingly difficult, and you pulled it off fairly well.

In all, at your current rate I think you would be able to find a job in the game industry without too much difficulty.

I'd just change the background you are using to something flat and plain to put more focus on the character.

Goodluck!

[TechnicallyArtistic]

Gah. Just when i think I'll have time for stuff like this a 100 other things pop up.

Anyway, got a little more done here. A transistion into a walk cycle. This took me longer than I wanted. The tail rig I built was pretty simple and I'm used to having more joints. I'm starting to think I should have built in an fk rig for it, but a little late for that now. I had a hell of a time getting any kind of sin wave moving through it with the controls and joints I was limited to. Kinda throws you off going from high end rigs to game rigs.

The arms still stiff to me. Again, I think one of these cases where I'm used to having both fk and IK rigs. Iduno that they have the right flow yet on the way the upper arm pulls on the lower arm. I might go back and redo that. I did the walk in one sitting, and the tail took about three. Too much of like a robotic strut still...

I spent some time playing around with this too with different render settings and using this scene as an excuse to play with mental ray. Hopefully I'll focus on this project only for a while and get some more animation done soon.

Anyway, going onto the next part now. Feedback on the walk cycle, or again anything else is good.

http://home.comcast.net/~evil-the-cat/cliprender.mov (http://home.comcast.net/%7Eevil-the-cat/cliprender.mov)

EDIT:
I went back and tweeked the arms a bit to have a bit more secondary motion and to be just a little more offset from the legs. So if there's more beyond that, I need a bit of help having that pointed out now.

[TechnicallyArtistic]

Another update. Not a whole lot new animation. Worked on the walk a little bit more cleaning it up.

Also, since the only feedback I was starting to get was on the frigging background I started working on a bit of a scene. Some of the objects in there are just place holders for real models, and Iduno that I'll use any of the textures in there just yet. Lighting is temp too till I build some more.

After rendering this I can see a little double jump in the wrist when he stops running. Must have accidently moved a key frame or something. Anyway, I'll adress that. But other than that... Comments? Anybody?

http://home.comcast.net/~evil-the-cat/cliprender.mov (http://home.comcast.net/%7Eevil-the-cat/cliprender.mov)

[amannin]

hmm, i have a few suggestions though:

his run in general feels like he is running too much with his back arced (leaning back too much) -- since he has a tail (or even if he didnt) I would make him lean more into the run, otherwise it feels more like a jog (loses power). and if you wanted to show him sprinting for whatever reason, i'd really make use of that tail as a counterbalance for him to really lean into his run --- but these might just be personal preferences, so dont feel obligated to change anything if you dont agree.

also, just playing through it, the flip looks fine, but when i scrubbed it, he sort of propels himself forward a lot just before contacting with the ground, i would maybe even out the distance he travels by maybe pulling his landing back a little -- but then again, maybe not, its kind of hard to say without actually seeing it done, so you may just want to stick with what you have. However, depending on how proffesional you want to make his flip, I would put his hands on his shins toward his ankles to tighten it up and possibly make him rotate faster, but if you want to keep it more amateur looking (which actually seems to fit your character) keep it tight, but kind of loose like you have it. I think it looks fine, but these are just ideas incase you felt unhappy about it at all. (nice recovery after the landing!)

Oh, and just one more thing came to mind -- maybe have him start to look at the objects before he jumps over or rolls under them, otherwise he almost seems kind of blank and not clued into what he is doing (especially with the ladder, he really should acknowledge it before he comes to a stop)

okay, i know i said one more thing -- but i thought of one last thing. maybe extend the transtition from the run to the walk. it definitely has a very video-game feel to it right now in terms of speed, nothing bad, but maybe could use a little more attention (for example, after all that running and jumping, put a little bit of fatigue into the transition)

Okay, wow -- didnt think I was going to type that much -- hopefully you'll find some of what I said useful. I think it is looking really good!

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