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Continuumx
03-03-2007, 05:25 PM
This is an area that I am still working to conquer with C4D without resorting to going outside the cinemaverse and into Vue X-Stream.

So I have been wondering, is there is a possibility of using thinking particles, mograph, and hair to accomplish this?

Since I do not yet have thinking particles and hair, I will try and test this assumption with the demo version of C4D.

See what I can come up with. I invite you to share your ideas or test or comments in this thread.

I am also working on the sky/cloud issue in another thread which seemed to have some very initial promising results with pyrocluster, see this thread:

ref: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=47&t=469426

Per-Anders
03-03-2007, 07:03 PM
You cna clone on surfaces using anoy of those tools to create as much geometry as you require, however the core to vue's ecosystem is the volumetric instancing system so you don't have to bring your machine to it's knees, for that you'd need samirs dpit currently as that's the only plugin with volumetric instancing available for C4D right now.

Continuumx
03-03-2007, 07:19 PM
You cna clone on surfaces using anoy of those tools to create as much geometry as you require, however the core to vue's ecosystem is the volumetric instancing system so you don't have to bring your machine to it's knees, for that you'd need samirs dpit currently as that's the only plugin with volumetric instancing available for C4D right now.

Thanks Per, I do have Samir's plugin. Thanks for the tip!

ooo
03-03-2007, 09:02 PM
DPIt was my thought too. In the VrayforC4D thread I read : ::vray has vrayproxies that will be supported either in v1 or in an update (1.1) afterwards. vray proxy is good to render a million highpoly cars or trees( awood p.e.) etc. it is what is called "real instances", they save a lot of memory and speed.
So that sounds very promising too!

odo

Continuumx
03-04-2007, 01:21 AM
DPIt was my thought too. In the VrayforC4D thread I read : ::vray has vrayproxies that will be supported either in v1 or in an update (1.1) afterwards. vray proxy is good to render a million highpoly cars or trees( awood p.e.) etc. it is what is called "real instances", they save a lot of memory and speed.
So that sounds very promising too!

odo

It does sound very good with the vray proxies. I have done some testing today. It seems that I have gotten the best results so far with DPIT4 demo. I'll post a first simple test.

Katachi
03-04-2007, 01:41 AM
Hi,

yep, DPIT can do volumetric instances. However, there are still limits with the current implementation. DPIT 4.1 will have a newer instancing system (faster, better integrated, less RAM consumption).

Once the open beta program starts you DPIT 4 users will get a chance to look at the new system. Anyway, DPITs current instances should already help you save loads of RAM. :)

Continuumx
03-04-2007, 02:58 AM
Hi,

yep, DPIT can do volumetric instances. However, there are still limits with the current implementation. DPIT 4.1 will have a newer instancing system (faster, better integrated, less RAM consumption).

Once the open beta program starts you DPIT 4 users will get a chance to look at the new system. Anyway, DPITs current instances should already help you save loads of RAM. :)

Thanks Samir,

I will keep an eye out for this portion of DPIT as I am still on 3.1 at the moment.

I gave a lot of play today to this experiment. I did some tests with hair and TP using R10 Demo. But I was most pleased with this result from DPIT 3.1 as that is the current version I have.

This is what I have been trying to get it at. I did not have a moment to tweak the lighting, please bear with me on that one.

Its a small step but there will be more.

DPIT 3.1 - Vast Ecosystem Test Result 1

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/260/dpit4ecosys0bol4.jpg

Katachi
03-04-2007, 10:23 AM
looks like a lot :) Maybe some color and height variation. Looking good to me so far.

Continuumx
03-10-2007, 07:48 AM
Thanks Samir!

The last one although a first test run has some good promise for matching the "Vue Ecosystem" look.

C4D/DPIT/PS

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3030/dpit4ecosys1a1kv3.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5460/dpit4ecosys1a2xh3.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3615/dpit4ecosys2tb6.jpg

ThePriest
03-10-2007, 09:00 AM
Nice Contunuux, didn't think to pay attention to the thread at first, but you've sold me on the last few pics.

Continuumx
03-10-2007, 09:31 AM
Nice Contunuux, didn't think to pay attention to the thread at first, but you've sold me on the last few pics.

Thanks! But do not go yet!

Wait till you see this one!

There still remains an issue with details when rendering this many trees at so small a scale. I did not scale this C4D landscape object up to real scale. I think if I had done that the trees would be fine.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2983/dpit4ecosys3tzv8.jpg

Katachi
03-10-2007, 09:57 AM
hey wow, very good results coninuumx! :thumbsup: Make sure to post these at the DPIT forums too. Im sure the others would love to see it. Definetly much better than what I came up with. :)

Keep it up!

sulian
03-10-2007, 12:53 PM
Very nice demonstration :thumbsup:

ooo
03-10-2007, 07:31 PM
Looking great indeed! How many polys is the original tree? i assume it is a mesh and not a billboard? My best ecosystems so far where all billboard forests. I also tried the DPIT clones but with deadlines approaching I switched to billboards with Stormtracer brush.

I was wondering, did anybody use the new multibrush in Dpit 4. That would make even better Vue-like landscapes possible I think. Haven't found the time yet to play with this feature so I'm very interested to see examples. Anyone? :)

odo

Continuumx
03-10-2007, 07:47 PM
hey wow, very good results coninuumx! :thumbsup: Make sure to post these at the DPIT forums too. Im sure the others would love to see it. Definetly much better than what I came up with. :)

Keep it up!

Thanks Samir!

Here is an update. The trees should appear to be more "3D" albeit 2.5D.

So far the technique is a combination of short/low real polygon objects to act as a fill and a billboarding system with the use of DPIT objects to distribute the objects over the landscape. The DPIT objects allow for natural distribution that provides a convincing simulation.

The technique is getting better. I believe there is a saturation point of the number of varying plant type species that is needed to provide a good simulation. At the moment, I am only using two types. Soon I will add a new species to the instancing distribution and continue adding a new one to find the minimum number needed to simulate enough to provide for a distribution that appears to be "unique" in variation.

C4D/ DPIT 3.999
19,000+ polygon Instances
862,000+ polygon low/short fill
891,896 polygon scene size

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/8848/dpit4ecosys325iu7.jpg

ooo
03-10-2007, 08:33 PM
Hey that's looking better and better! Thanks for posting the technique-background. I really have to dive in the DPIT vegetation options again. This forest looks absolutely great!

odo

AdamT
03-10-2007, 08:35 PM
Looking good! Keep at it.

Continuumx
03-12-2007, 03:30 AM
I've got some new results.

The first is 3 varieties and the second is four varieties. I would definitely recommend the minimum varieties to be no less than three and it seems so far that numbers above that give more and more of a hint of realism in the simulation.

The summary is that with just three varieties the simulation is enough to warrant a good solution that could easily be convincing as a realistic simulation.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/931/dpit4ecosys3253ao1.jpg

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/9712/dpit4ecosys3254ky8.jpg

JoelOtron
03-12-2007, 03:47 AM
Thanks for posting these continuumx. I have DPIT also and seeing this thread actually triggered the urge to try experimenting with the clone dummy myself. I'm not sure I quite understand how the instances work, in terms of what is actually happenning at render time. Is the result a sort of a 2d card/sprite rendering like stormtracer? We're not actually getting real 3d clones like you would in Ditools or mograph, are we?

At an hour per frame--this would unfortunately not be useful for animation. Would be interesting to see a thread develop showing the pros and cons of each "ecosystem" tree instancing method.
The available tools might include DPIT, mograph, Stormtracer, TP/Xpresso, Pyrocluster, HAIR and eventually the instancing system I've been reading about that is supposed to be avaialble in vray, when that comes out for c4d.

Continuumx
03-12-2007, 03:57 AM
Thanks for posting these continuumx. I have DPIT also and seeing this thread actually triggered the urge to try experimenting with the clone dummy myself. I'm not sure I quite understand how the instances work, in terms of what is actually happenning at render time. Is the result a sort of a 2d card/sprite rendering like stormtracer? We're not actually getting real 3d clones like you would in Ditools or mograph, are we?

At an hour per frame--this would unfortunately not be useful for animation. Would be interesting to see a thread develop showing the pros and cons of each "ecosystem" tree instancing method.
The available tools might include DPIT, mograph, Stormtracer, TP/Xpresso, Pyrocluster, HAIR and eventually the instancing system I've been reading about that is supposed to be avaialble in vray, when that comes out for c4d.

Hello Joel,

Great to hear you will be sharing your experiments in this simulation!

As I understand the clone dummy tool in DPIT is it uses a cube and a texture to make the clone of an actual object in the 2D mode but it actually does something much more complicated in the 3d instancing or volumetric mode.

Vue is using something like a billboard + object snapshot technology of some kind. I have been thinking about it a lot. I have also looked at a lot of vue ecosystem renders and I can see how it could do some billboarding for a lot of what we are seeing. The solid growth inventory and stock of plants is not only impressive, but of very good quality.

I would also add FusionThing to the mix of tools as well. There still exists some beautiful blend of a myriad of these tools for C4D to get something even more complex like a possible mix of Mograph and DPIT which I have not even begun to get into yet.

I think the frame rate could get down to something much much less considering for moving images you do not need the kind of quality that a static image requires at frames rates of 24fps and higher or even somewhat smaller frame rates.

I think a viable animation with weighted quality versus time could be achieved if needed. At the moment I am working with stills. At some point I may do some animation so the breadth of the vegetation mass can be experienced.

Hopefully more experimentation will open this up to a lot more wild and beautiful techniques.

Continuumx
03-12-2007, 04:08 AM
Joel,

I forgot to comment. The reason that I am for the moment supporting a mix of billboard and 3D objects is that to use just 3D objects is heavy on the system in terms of polygon weight.

A typical good tree model can easily consume 150,000 polygons.

So to use this in an instancing system is going to get you only so far. First you got to deal with this one variety consuming 150,000 polygons of your scene weight.

By my experiments, I recommend at least 3 varieties of plants or trees to get past the "tree clone" look that one or two variations will get you.

So far, thats 450,000 polygons that goes to trees used by your instancing system, not to mention the leaf textures that will be needed.

I know for a fact Vue is not doing this for its ecosystem when every plant instance is a variation. The numbers do not favor this kind of a system if some sort of billboarding is not used. I would really like to get deeper into how it is accomplishing the task of some of the ecosystem scenes that I have seen.

ooo
03-12-2007, 07:26 PM
Very interesting thread!
I did some tests with DPIT clones a while ago but cannot find them at the moment. Will have to render them again I guess. In the mean time I post here an image with Stormtracer Brush billboards (2 species broadleaf tree). Not as vast an ecosystem as continuumx's one but you get the general idea. I hope to see more examples of all the available options here (including VUE Xstream) to see what is possible nowadays within C4D.

odo

http://www.odeontwerp.nl/images/Tradeport-render6b0009.jpg

AdamT
03-12-2007, 07:32 PM
AFAIK Vue also use volumetric instancing, but their trees are pretty efficient in terms of poly count. IMO 150k polys is way too many for a tree used in an ecosystem.

Continuumx
03-13-2007, 02:54 AM
Very interesting thread!
I did some tests with DPIT clones a while ago but cannot find them at the moment. Will have to render them again I guess. In the mean time I post here an image with Stormtracer Brush billboards (2 species broadleaf tree). Not as vast an ecosystem as continuumx's one but you get the general idea. I hope to see more examples of all the available options here (including VUE Xstream) to see what is possible nowadays within C4D.

odo



Odo, I like this image! Nice photograph! Very impressive billboarding. I really like the look you got with Storm Tracer!

I hope to see more examples of other ways of doing this including some Vue Xstream via C4D!

Thanks for sharing!

Continuumx
03-13-2007, 02:55 AM
AFAIK Vue also use volumetric instancing, but their trees are pretty efficient in terms of poly count. IMO 150k polys is way too many for a tree used in an ecosystem.

Adam, thats an amazing instancing system that Vue has if it is all volumetric instancing. Whats the polygon count of typical Vue tree?

Continuumx
03-13-2007, 03:00 AM
Here's an orthgraphic view of same scene - no adjustment to any elements. The technique works well in any viewing configuration.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/641/dpit4ecosys3254bdi5.jpg

videodv
03-13-2007, 10:50 AM
Here is a quick test with vue 5 infinite.

This is using the Summer Cherry Tree 350,000 polys

Number of Objects: 112089
Scene Poly Count: 17,852,035,602

Rendered using Broadcast Quality at 640*480
Time 2.53

edited for picture link.

http://www.screentoscene.com/Images/bigtreetest1.jpg

soccerrprp
08-19-2007, 03:54 AM
Wow, just discovered this thread. Trying to find a landscape option w/o having to resort to purchasing vue. Very interested in how landscaping is done with Samir's Dpit. Any addition tips/progress?

Richard

shtl
08-19-2007, 09:34 AM
Yop thats looks quite cool indeed!

I think the 2 main limitations exept for 20,000,000,000 polys scenes, is the grow system, that makes the trees grow perpendicular with the terran, then grow vertically exponentially.(sorry, lack of english vocabulary :blush: )
And the fact that you can render billions trees with GR (GI like in Vue) or even AO with trees in minutes.
Exept for real instancing, I'm sure that as you said, with a touch of TP (surface emitter?) and some Xpresso commands, you should get something very cool. Though job anyway. Did anyone tryed with Oban?



Here are the few very first images that I gat out of my virst step within Vue6 Infinite:

This first one with AO, wich makes the sleaves illumination pretty nice I think:
http://www.shtl.org/Vue/Wutong_06_20070705_1680b.jpg

This one in GI activated. (boat model from DeEspona) The GI of Vue6 is not exactly like the c4d radiosity, but result can be almost the same.
http://www.shtl.org/Vue/Vue_WIP_01/Vue_WIP_01_15_GI.jpg

and this one in GR (Global Radiosity) wich is almost the same as GI of c4d.
http://www.shtl.org/Vue/figues_WIP/FigsVill14_03_rt_rt1680.jpg


But thoose tests you guys did are very cool, I'll follow this thread closely.

Also as for stormtracer, sad it discontinued, Odo's result looks really nice c:)

Keep it up guys !

kromekat
08-19-2007, 08:33 PM
Nice thread! - loving those DPIT instanced pines - very nice!

Adam

Rich-Art
08-19-2007, 09:26 PM
Wow that are some awesome images...

Peace,
Rich_Art. :thumbsup:

BUZZFX
01-28-2008, 05:22 AM
I'd like to revive this thread. Anyone have any new ideas or images to share on this subject? Anyone here using XStream successfully who could post some images?

Canadianboy
01-28-2008, 05:53 AM
I think im going to give this stuff a go. Really nice results guys!

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