PDA

View Full Version : Splutterfish Announces Brazil r/s V2 Pre-release for 3ds max


PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-28-2007, 02:33 PM
Seattle, WA (Feb. 28, 2007) -- SplutterFish, developers of the award-winning Brazil Rendering System for 3ds Max, is pleased to announce Pre-Release availability of Brazil r/s V2, the highly anticipated successor to their ground breaking high-end 3D rendering package. This Pre-Release version is a feature complete, production tested, late stage beta, and is available for purchase now.The press release can be found here (http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/WebContent/PressReleaseB2PreRel), while information on the pre-release can be found here (http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/WebContent/B4MaxPreRelStatus), and information on Brazil r/s V2 for 3ds max can be found here (http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/WebContent/B4Max). New features for Brazil r/s V2 include:

Overall rendering speed improvements
Rendertime displacement
3D motion blur
Irradiance render cache
Light portals
New Advanced Feature Textures Maps
New Implicit (CSG) Objects
Texture / Light baking
Easy to use windows installer/updater
The pre-release also includes a new pricing and licensing options.

-Eric

AdrianWilliams
02-28-2007, 02:56 PM
*faints* lol :bounce:

DrBalthar
02-28-2007, 05:00 PM
Well not really impressed by that new feature list. It seems Brazil is losing even more ground to VRay and MRay.

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-28-2007, 05:42 PM
Why do you say that DrBalthar? Because MR and Vray have more support across other applications, or just head to head features? Based on what you need in your line of work or something else al together?

-Eric

^Lele^
02-28-2007, 07:25 PM
Rendertime displacement
3D motion blur
Irradiance render cache
New Implicit (CSG) Objects
Texture / Light baking
Easy to use windows installer/updater


These are hardly ground-breaking features, being present in every other commercial renderer out there (fR, mR, VRay, modo to an extent).
This said, there may be other pluses not so apparent at a first glance...



Lele

jonesthesteam
02-28-2007, 08:00 PM
i didn't notice 64 bit there anywhere - or vista...anyone point em out to me?

anty
02-28-2007, 09:45 PM
These are hardly ground-breaking features, being present in every other commercial renderer out there (fR, mR, VRay, modo to an extent).
This said, there may be other pluses not so apparent at a first glance...

Some time difference in ditales ;)
It's like games, all shooter games are same, they all around: guns> killing> opponents,
BUT - some of them - great addictive fun games, most of them not))
But features are the same))

NOTORIOUS-ro
02-28-2007, 09:53 PM
Well I was waiting for this for a loooong time... Almost gave up @ a point. From what I was there will be no more Brazil rio (the free version). From what I heard it's really fast... and if it weren't that late it's technology would actually be really way up there... but it's not so no point in bringing that up anymore. Can't wait for a full release and some documentation on it. You guys should check the forums for a couple of pictures (HERE (http://forums.splutterfish.com/viewtopic.php?t=7002)). These are since the beta but I think it's pretty close to what you'll get. Hope to hear more opinions.

Skingrimace
02-28-2007, 11:22 PM
These are hardly ground-breaking features, being present in every other commercial renderer out there (fR, mR, VRay, modo to an extent).
This said, there may be other pluses not so apparent at a first glance...



Lele

It's been my experience that Brazil 2 smokes the competition (many of the names you mentioned)...but that 's up to each user to discover, leaving speculation aside.

Skingrimace

tlggungor
02-28-2007, 11:26 PM
Good news for max users .. but I have been waiting for maya version :scream::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Array
03-01-2007, 12:08 AM
Whatever happened to the standalone version and Brazil shading language?

PiXeL_MoNKeY
03-01-2007, 01:40 AM
The maya version is in development, as well as the rhino version. I think it was always Splutterfish's plan to release the Max version first and the other 2 to follow. I don't know what the exact status of the other versions are, that would be a question for Splutterfish. As far as I know there are still plans for a standalone to come at some point, and there is a shader SDK available by request for existing customers. The feature list is what will be available in the pre-release and 2.0. I am sure there are a lot of other features that will be showing up in Brazil 2.x and beyond.

Also, just because a feature says displacement doesn't mean that head to head they are the same thing. For example Brazil displacement allows you to cap, or not cap, the geometry meaning you can create holes in an object through displacement mapping. As far as I know this type of capability is not available in the standard versions of MR, Vray, or fR, though I do have limited experience with these plugins. I think something similar can be done through the 3rd party implicit surfaces plugin with Vray. Also, MR lacks support for just about anything 3rd party, there are few developers that have added support, but not all. So trying to compare brazil and MR is like apples and oranges. I think the best thing to do for any users is to try all tools and find the one that works for them. Head to head just about all renderers are the same, except renderman cause they patent everything they can.

I am sure at some point there will be a demo, by request, or rio like version, but I have no idea if/when this may happen. If you have any specific questions about features and or roadmaps the Splutterfish forums may be a better place to ask.

-Eric

cptvideo
03-01-2007, 04:02 AM
Hi All,

We just got the website online today, so give us a chance -- we'll get everyone's questions answered up there along with new pictures as we move ahead :)

Here's some quick follow-up on the stuff that's been brought up so far:

Featurelist -- everyone knows you can't judge a piece of software by what fits in a bullet-list. We've never been a company that's put featurelists over quality and reliability anyway, and rather than shoe-horning features in quickly, and making the profit-motive our priority, we made the very difficult decision to make moving cross platform our priority -- which in the long term is what we believe is going to benefit the community, and the requirements of customers like ours, the most. Getting all the new features in as part of that is what we've done -- we've also made rendering speed a much bigger focus than we have in the past, and I think people are going to be shocked when the see the different: speed without sacraficing the Brazil quality :) It all took longer than any of us would have guessed, but I believe it was the right approach and the proof will be there as we go forward.

Rio (free version) -- There will, of course, be demo and eval versions available, and Rio *may* come back in a V2 form. We've discussed it but haven't committed to anything yet. I also think it's obvious that it wouldn't make any sense for any of that to happen until after V2 is out of Pre-Release. As far as us really _wanting_ to do Rio, unfortunately, there is some question about whether, as a group, we feel it's worth it. Those that know us know we've given away a ton of free stuff in the past. They also know that the community has changed a lot since those older days, and it has, franky, gotten a lot less fun to give away free stuff. If it's not fun anymore, why do it?

64 bit -- the website says, "coming soon" -- our priority was to get the pre-release out the door first. We didn't want to complicate things by adding the whole 64 bit build and deployment process to the equation.

Vista -- there's not enough support and commitment there from anyone yet, in my opinion -- it's got some serious problems still and i'd avoid it if you rely on your computer for your living. Give microsoft some time to get things worked out and give the rest of the industry time to get all the widespread ancillary apps working again. (yeah, yeah, there's compatability modes and all, but in my opinion it doesn't play well with outside software yet and switching over prematurely looks like it could easily be a pipeline nightmare - dead licensing, drivers, network/firewall problems, etc.)

standalone -- coming. The priority was to get the api working and in one application first: 3ds Max, of course. Each application requires an integration effort, and making the api work better than Brazil 1 is essentially a proof-of-concept for the whole api. The rhino integration was keeping up pretty well with our development in max, so i expect that to start to turn the corner pretty quickly now. The Maya integration was released in a very limited beta, but the feeling is that it's going to need more work and probably a lot more direct involvement from SplutterFish. The standalone version has been in various degrees of development thoughout the process and there's still commitments to be made on that in terms of both resources and direction. All these require some degree of our involvement and while some of it can be done concurrently, there's only so many hours a day we can all put into any of it. Re: the shading language -- that's been in there and being used since early in brazil 1 -- it's a c++ api and you still need to compile it into a max plugin for it to get life-support from max.

Like PiXeL_MoNKeY said, the SplutterFish forums are the best spot to ask this kind of stuff if you want answers from the source. As I've said, the community is not like it used to be. When you get information from public forums today, you never know if what you're hearing is accurate of if it's coming from someone with some other agenda.

Thanx to all for the really supportive comments and stuff -- we really do appreciate it and we look forward to getting to know you all as we try to come back out of our self-imposed seclusion :)


(oh -- those of you that don't know me -- this is Scott Kirvan from SplutterFish, co-founder, CEO, programmer guy)

ThomasMahler
03-01-2007, 06:03 AM
I always loved the look that one were able to achieve with the Brazil Renderer - it's probably stupid, but most of the stuff I've seen coming from it had a bit more character than the VRay stuff, etc.

But all that aside, isn't it good that a new, improved version is out there? So let's not bash a piece of software now before you guys even had the time to evaluate it. If it's fast and easy to use, I, as a user, would be happy.

blakshep
03-01-2007, 07:02 AM
woohoo
there's the announcment.
realtime shadow map....mmm.. we were discussing this feature a year ago, what would we like in the far-far future :)

DrBalthar
03-01-2007, 07:37 AM
Why do you say that DrBalthar? Because MR and Vray have more support across other applications, or just head to head features? Based on what you need in your line of work or something else al together?

-Eric
I don't mind platforms since currently I mostly use Max anyway. It is more the features. There is nothing exciting new which is not already in most other renderers out there. And I mean M~R comes free with Max and 3.5 is really really good so I don't see the need to get Brazil for example.

simonenastasi
03-01-2007, 08:59 AM
If MR is enough for you, that's ok. A bunch of other users found the MR limits. I wouldn't even try to use MR for an interior rendering since i had the opportunity of use B2.
For my taste-needs-workflow, even B1 was far superior to MR. MR render settings-workflow in Max is a mess, for me.

MAK
03-01-2007, 09:12 AM
A little OT but is there a list of feature films that used Brazil somewhere? I know a couple did but can't find a full list.

Cheers

simonenastasi
03-01-2007, 09:14 AM
it should be http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/WebContent/Productions

instinct-vfx
03-01-2007, 09:51 AM
just as a quick sidenote :

For example Brazil displacement allows you to cap, or not cap, the geometry meaning you can create holes in an object through displacement mapping. As far as I know this type of capability is not available in the standard versions of MR, Vray, or fR, though I do have limited experience with these plugins.

For Vray this is plain wrong. Standard displacement allows to have a "waterlevel" to do just that. So you might want to evaluate other renderers before ditching them :D

Regards,
Thorsten

simonenastasi
03-01-2007, 10:12 AM
"As far as I know...though I do have limited experience with these plugins". FOr heaven's sake, where the hell you see "other renderers ditching" here? He just said that he could be wrong. Sheesh.

instinct-vfx
03-01-2007, 10:13 AM
That's why i posted that he indeed is in this case. I didnt mean to be harsh and there was no offense intended! Sorry if that sounded wrong.

Regards,
Thorsten

simonenastasi
03-01-2007, 10:16 AM
Sorry for my harsh reply then. Sorry, it's just that i don't want never ever again see pointless "render engine wars", if you know what i mean.

Rivendale
03-01-2007, 10:20 AM
Finally, been looking forward to this release. Will testdrive my free upgrade this weekend.:) The features are sweet I think, especially since Brazil is already such a capable renderer. Fast and stable with great quality output.

CML

lightwell
03-01-2007, 10:27 AM
I always loved the look that one were able to achieve with the Brazil Renderer - it's probably stupid, but most of the stuff I've seen coming from it had a bit more character than the VRay stuff, etc.

Thats a really important point. I really like Vray, but Vray renders always look Vray-ish. Can't put my finger on what causes that exactly, but its always been apparent to me.

I love using Brazil for exteriors, I feel like I have more control and I really like the look and feel of the resulting renders. Besides, three years of using Brazil has taught me that its rock-solid-stable. The only blip that I can think of was an issue with using certain material types within a multi sub object material. If only others could be that reliable. I imagine the fishes have been so long because they want to make sure that they have something watertight before releasing it.

Brazil 2 imminent...looking forward to using it!

JM

tlggungor
03-01-2007, 10:57 AM
I cant wait to see the next version of maya:sad:

^Lele^
03-01-2007, 01:44 PM
It's been my experience that Brazil 2 smokes the competition (many of the names you mentioned)...but that 's up to each user to discover, leaving speculation aside.

Skingrimace
Indeed, i was being speculative.
Not much to be done right now, if not shelling some dosh to try it first hand.
All i can say is that "usability" and "overall performance" are such a marketing-hyped bunch of terms that hardly make me break a sweat when i see them touted.
And of course, a bullet list of features does call for a checklist comparison.
But hey, peace and love.
It's out, those interested will know soon enough how good a smoke Brazil 2.0 is.
The neighbour's grass is always greener, they say.:eek:

BTW, Mr. Kirvan, if i may ask, how's the max scripting support for brazil 2.0?

thanks for the kind answer,

Lele

quizzy
03-01-2007, 02:50 PM
maxscripting is supported.....

^Lele^
03-01-2007, 03:02 PM
It's always been, "of sorts".
I remember some issues (stopping ones) a LONG while back, before leaving the ship.
Don't know what level they are at now, that's why i asked.
Having become an almost full-time scripter, I'd be curious to see how some of the tools i prepared for competitors would port, that's all.

Lele

PiXeL_MoNKeY
03-01-2007, 03:57 PM
For Vray this is plain wrong. Standard displacement allows to have a "waterlevel" to do just that. So you might want to evaluate other renderers before ditching them :DI wasn't ditching them, but thank you for providing me with the correct information. Trust me if I wanted to ditch other tools I wouldn't be using something like that feature to do it. I was just trying to say that stated features are not always the best comparison. Especially since that feature is not listed on the vray features page, it only lists displacement mapping.

-Eric

DrBalthar
03-01-2007, 05:03 PM
If MR is enough for you, that's ok. A bunch of other users found the MR limits. I wouldn't even try to use MR for an interior rendering since i had the opportunity of use B2.
For my taste-needs-workflow, even B1 was far superior to MR. MR render settings-workflow in Max is a mess, for me.

Well MR is flexible enough for my case and that's basically where MR wins over most other renders out there in the field besides probably Pixar PrMan. Which is that it is a fully programmable render engine if things are not as you like you code that missing piece. I understand why that is not everyone's thing though. But even in the low end scale I think Brazil will have it hard to compete with fR and VRay with that feature set.

Skingrimace
03-01-2007, 05:33 PM
Well MR is flexible enough for my case and that's basically where MR wins over most other renders out there in the field besides probably Pixar PrMan. Which is that it is a fully programmable render engine if things are not as you like you code that missing piece. I understand why that is not everyone's thing though. But even in the low end scale I think Brazil will have it hard to compete with fR and VRay with that feature set.

OK, so you are telling us mr works for you--very well then. You should stop speculating about Brazil 2 until you try it (and if you don't want to, then don't), as I have already stated.

As for competing with mr and others, I personally have used and seen Brazil 2 succeed in film production where mr and v-ray have failed to even render the images. But hey, let's let people find out for themselves.

Skingrimace

cptvideo
03-01-2007, 05:56 PM
All i can say is that "usability" and "overall performance" are such a marketing-hyped bunch of terms that hardly make me break a sweat when i see them touted.


Any ideas on how we should say it? I mean, "usability" is about a few things: Being able to pick it up as a noob and get it working quickly, which has to do with how comfortable an artist is with the tools and how much they have to adapt or change their current workflow/pipeline/tools to a new renderer. It has to do with how many hours and artists spends getting from point A (design) to point B (final image), and it's really clear that Brazil allows artists be more efficient and productive. It also has everything to do with if it's crashing out, disrupting your work, and providing an interface that gets in the way more than anything else.

Same w/ "overall performance": It's faster than it was, it takes less memory, we believe it's even more reliable than B1. Overall it performs better, so how do you say that concisely without it coming off as hype? :)

To be honest, I think the word, "hype," is a bit hyped. It's too easy to blanketly discredit something by just saying, "hype". When _you_ say, "hype," what do you mean by it? Is the phrasing is too general? ...the terms too common? ...the claims sound dishonest? ...unimportant? I fully understand the cynicism that's out there regarding renderers. I feel the community has been lied too and really ripped off by vendors in the rendering market space since the time we started with ghost/brazil, and it's probably impossible for an artist, starting from square one today to look at the current landscape and tell who's legit, who's going to be around and committed long term, and who's company priorities are in line with those of the artists. We need to continue to try and communicate to those people, and I hate to think that we're just wasting our time because it all sounds like "hype".


BTW, Mr. Kirvan, if i may ask, how's the max scripting support for Brazil 2.0?


Scripting in B2 is really good in comparison to B1. We dropped max 3 support so that we could convert everything up to max's ParamBlock2 based code -- you get a lot of maxscript support for free just by doing that. Richard's been doing a ton of scripting already and a bunch of those scripts are included with B2 (there's even a script in there that checks for updates). ... and of course, we'll add script extensions as they're needed.

^Lele^
03-01-2007, 07:39 PM
Thanks for the reply, Scott (i'll drop the Mr. Kirvan for now ;) ).

I see what you mean, most definitely so, and still i find myself overwhelmed by how many times these claims are made (not necessarily from SF, mind you :) ).
You guys, of all people, are well aware that the idea of "usability" for one, is definitely very , very bound to the USER, rather than the software.
A tool might fit well with my brain's thinking patterns (which ones, some may ask...), and another may not, no matter how "logical" it seems to the creator, or a billion users around the world.
Same goes for performance.
A thing is how many rays are traced per millisecond, another is pipeline integration, and so on.
What drew me away from B1 as a choice was scripting, as you know (ditching it, thanks for that) with some issues in previous releases, which to me IS performance.
No matter how much quicker is a raytracer, if i have to do by hand a zillion clicks before actually pressing the render button...

Of course, i WAS referring to some "other" hyped product which recently generated some turmoil.
But sorry to say it, it can't cut it for those who don't have the software in their hands, to simply read a bullet list of "improvements" which have been around in the market by three years now (and used in productions as well, if maybe not blockbuster movies).
Of course, you being one of the creators of Brazil, give for granted what you know as being a reality, but i can't.
"Brazilness" isn't something i know.
All in all, a word or two more would dispel doubts about hype and marketing strategies in days were at least *I* feel there's way too much of it floating around, and way too little infos (is there, maybe, a race for market shares in the render engine arena?).

Thanks for taking the time, Sir :)

Lele

J-K
03-01-2007, 09:29 PM
I've read an awful lot of comments with a negative vibe and I personally can't understand it at all. Shouldn't the Max community be really happy to have another great choice of renderer? I thought competition was supposed to be healthy?

There seems to be a lot of immaturity in the sense that people obviously have a favourite renderer and they protect it as though it's their little baby. In the world of creativity and business that really does seem ridiculous. I'm sure each of them have their advantages and disadvantages and it's a pointless exercise to comment about hype or anything else when you haven't even tried it. It's barely out. Give the developers some time to launch the thing properly? I'm sure enough information and pictures will be revealed over the next few months which will give people a chance to make an informed judgement. Anything else at this stage just comes across as defensive. Brazil has a fantastic reputation and that's something that can't be ignored. If the new version implements the listed features in a predictable and reliable way then it's fantastic news.

Congrats to Splutterfish on completing it and getting it out of the door. It must have taken a lot of hard work and for that I applaud your efforts.

Cheers,

bluemagicuk
03-01-2007, 10:03 PM
Well let me just say that when it works with maya i will be a happy guy ....

Out of the film credit list below there is only 3 films i havent seen and all the ones i have seen i thought were visually stunning --- not neccesarily the best films but the visuals were great.

I doubt that brazil was the only renderer used in all those films though :)

Sometimes justified hype (http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/WebContent/ArtistSpotlightTheOrphanage) is good when you can back it up with a good story from production it is both interesting and reaffirming.

http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/WebContent/Productions

soulburn3d
03-01-2007, 10:09 PM
A tool might fit well with my brain's thinking patterns (which ones, some may ask...), and another may not, no matter how "logical" it seems to the creator, or a billion users around the world.

That is true. Although one thing to note is, in my opinion of course, Brazil is one of the best integrated renderers available for max right now. What I mean by that is if you find yourself comfortable with the "max workflow" (there's some variation there, but in general the way max is setup suggests a certain type of workflow), the "brazil workflow" will generally feel very comfortable to you, wheras some of the other renderers can feel "bolted on", their workflow seems at odds with the way many max people are used to using the software.

I actually find it interesting that you're in fact using max, since you said script access is so important to you. Most of the heavy scripting folk I know prefer programs like maya, which has much deeper scripting access. Maxscript was created after the release of max v1, and as such, it's always had to play a catchup job, trying to give a scripter access to stuff after the fact, instead of being a core part of the architecture from the beginning. I'd say in many ways brazil has deeper maxscript access to max than max does to itself :)

On the other hand, Brazil standalone or Brazil for maya may be much closer to what you're after, it will still have the high quality images, but generated using a different toolset (either through pure programming, or through the maya interface, respectively).

Anyways, as an old max guy, I do feel that Brazil has a high usability for both myself, and other max people I know, because of how well integrated it is into the max workflow. So I understand and agree with your point, but at the same time I have to back what Scott says and place usability as a bulletpoint because it's something that gives Brazil a HUGE advantage over other products.

- Neil

BrandonD
03-01-2007, 11:30 PM
These are hardly ground-breaking features, being present in every other commercial renderer out there (fR, mR, VRay, modo to an extent).
This said, there may be other pluses not so apparent at a first glance...



Well, as is the case with most renderers, implementation of said features has always been the differentiating factor. For example, shaders in VRay are very phyiscally based where as in Brazil they've been traditionally artist-friendly. The implementations are different and each method is a strength to a particular group of users.

The same has always been said about 3d apps, for example. MAX, Maya, LW, Soft, Houdini - they all deal with 3d geometry and animation, just the implementation of their tools and methodolgy is different. Hence, there is no "best" app because what's best for you isn't necessarily best for me.

But back to this release, congrats Fishes

MAK
03-01-2007, 11:35 PM
- Neil Hi Neil!
Is Pixar's still using Brazil in production lately? (in some shots like in The Icredibles..) ?

And a little question for the Fishes... SmokeFX works with Brazil right ?

MAK

depleteD
03-01-2007, 11:38 PM
I like Brazil, I've been waiting for this release for quite awhile. Can't wait till its out for Maya.

soulburn3d
03-01-2007, 11:53 PM
Is Pixar's still using Brazil in production lately? (in some shots like in The Icredibles..) ?

Hey MAK. Afraid I am not allowed to comment on our current pipeline. Sorry dude.

- Neil

MAK
03-01-2007, 11:59 PM
Hey MAK. Afraid I am not allowed to comment on our current pipeline. Sorry dude.

- Neil

No problem man! I knew this was going to be the answer lol(Ij ust had to assskkk :D).
Gosh I still remember checking you site daily for Ghost..err Brazil/alpha tutorials.Argh time passes fast...:sad:

soulburn3d
03-02-2007, 12:02 AM
Gosh I still remember checking you site daily for Ghost..err Brazil/alpha tutorials.Argh time passes fast...:sad:

Ya, that was 5 years ago :) I still try and get tutorials on my website as often as I can, but my time is so limited these days.

- Neil

MAK
03-02-2007, 12:08 AM
Ya, that was 5 years ago :) I still try and get tutorials on my website as often as I can, but my time is so limited these days.

- Neil

Are you trying to say that while "working" at Blur back then you had a lot of free time...?.Beware Tim is probably lurking here! :eek: Just kdding! lol
Thanks for all the Tuts though! Go on and finish Ratatouille now!...:twisted:

MAK

soulburn3d
03-02-2007, 12:14 AM
Are you trying to say that while "working" at Blur back then you had a lot of free time...?.Beware Tim is probably lurking here!

Haha! Well, it's very simple, when I worked at blur, I had no time for a life, so everything was CGCGCG! I now have a soon-to-be-wife, I've bought a house, seeing my friends is harder because they don't all work at the same company I work for, and I'm old and need my sleep :)

Thanks for all the Tuts though! Go on and finish Ratatouille now!...:twisted:

Working on our 2008 film actually. But that's WAY off topic. :)

- Neil

BrandonD
03-02-2007, 12:22 AM
Aw, come on, Muffin! Surely you must still be partaking in the tranya?

soulburn3d
03-02-2007, 12:29 AM
Aw, come on, Muffin! Surely you must still be partaking in the tranya?

I do indeed!

- Neil

cptvideo
03-02-2007, 12:44 AM
And a little question for the Fishes... SmokeFX works with Brazil right

I assume you mean FumeFX? We've got one bug logged against B2 regarding FumeFX at the moment -- we'll be working w/ kresso to get that working. It has do with the light mapping, which is kind of important :) The rest of it works.

The Orphanage did some really nice creature work w/ fume and brazil 1 in the Host -- i'll look into getting some stills or something for the website -- it's pretty cool.

MAK
03-02-2007, 12:49 AM
I assume you mean FumeFX? We've got one bug logged against B2 regarding FumeFX at the moment -- we'll be working w/ kresso to get that working. It has do with the light mapping, which is kind of important :) The rest of it works.

The Orphanage did some really nice creature work w/ fume and brazil 1 in the Host -- i'll look into getting some still or something for the website -- it's pretty cool.

Argh, you're right, I meant FumeFX (sorry it's nearly 03AM here lol, time to go to sleep).
Thanks for the quick answer!

MAK

^Lele^
03-02-2007, 01:53 AM
That is true. Although one thing to note is, in my opinion of course, Brazil is one of the best integrated renderers available for max right now. What I mean by that is if you find yourself comfortable with the "max workflow" (there's some variation there, but in general the way max is setup suggests a certain type of workflow), the "brazil workflow" will generally feel very comfortable to you, wheras some of the other renderers can feel "bolted on", their workflow seems at odds with the way many max people are used to using the software.

I actually find it interesting that you're in fact using max, since you said script access is so important to you. Most of the heavy scripting folk I know prefer programs like maya, which has much deeper scripting access. Maxscript was created after the release of max v1, and as such, it's always had to play a catchup job, trying to give a scripter access to stuff after the fact, instead of being a core part of the architecture from the beginning. I'd say in many ways brazil has deeper maxscript access to max than max does to itself :)

On the other hand, Brazil standalone or Brazil for maya may be much closer to what you're after, it will still have the high quality images, but generated using a different toolset (either through pure programming, or through the maya interface, respectively).

Anyways, as an old max guy, I do feel that Brazil has a high usability for both myself, and other max people I know, because of how well integrated it is into the max workflow. So I understand and agree with your point, but at the same time I have to back what Scott says and place usability as a bulletpoint because it's something that gives Brazil a HUGE advantage over other products.

- Neil
Neil, i'm flattered by the reply (that's definitely shooting too high for me...), and i have to say i agree with most of what you say.
I am an heavy, heavy vray user, and do rely on its interpretation of the real world to get stuff to render correctly (BrandonD).
This said, i have used Mr under maya in production(and some mel scripting to go with it), and brazil (rio as well) under max for a while, personally.
While the maxscript IS bolted on as you say, there are many a way to add on to it in a consistent, predictable way.
While when working with maya the mel scripting was as easy as checking the mel output for operations, and change them to fit the bill, maxscript does require a wee bit more work (from the standard listener output).
Still, brazil 1.x would quit out of max for the simplest of operations (i think i remember a material assignment back in the VERY early days), while vray allowed me to develop a plethora of working (bar my own inabilities and limitations) scripts which somehow benefitted the community, from the early days.
You as well should know that that in itself is a renderer skill, and one of the biggest ones.
Unless, that is, my work experience was limited to big-headed, small-attributed companies, which ain't the case.

Having always been a "bitch" of apps (LW, maya, max, N renderers) in and out of production, i ain't as fond of the max workflow as many early users are, recognising some others have a better approach at some issues, and in any case being quick to adapt to a slightly different workflow which produces tangible results quickly enough.

In any event, i'm just glad to hear i have a new "app" to throw some time onto, in case, to develop scripts, and to learn more deeply (a demo version with a watermark would be mighty, but anything would go).

Most of all, i am glad to see there CAN be discussion, open and somewhat unbiased( so much i tried my side, WITH the doubts that came with it) on these kind of issues.

Lele

ihavenofish
03-02-2007, 03:12 AM
my thoughts on brazil 2 are simple. its better than brazil 1.
:)

if you liked b1, you should really like b2 alot more.
if you had a problem that stopped you from using b1, like wanting faster GI for interiors, or requiring 3d motion blur etc, then you should look now at 2.0, it may give you what you need.

none of these features are "new". not in any renderer. the bulk of them were developped long ago, some back in the early 80's and even 70's i think. POV-Ray has all of them, noones hopping to use that on their next feature though.
the issue has always been how to make good use of them. in my workflow, b2 makes good use of these features. or rather, allows me to use them with good results.

theres alot of things in b2 that dont translate to the spec sheet.
http://www.projectyellow.ca/b2/desk_10.jpg
heres my example image. every surface has glossy reflections, theres glossy refractions on the curtains, lamp shades. theres GI, skylight, ambient occlusion, area lights, and 3d depth of field.

render time was 27 minutes on my lowly dual opteron 246. render time for a 3k frame on a quad woodcrest 2.0ghz was under 2 hours. those are really good times for the features used i think.

but more important to me than the new and improved speed (i liked b1 too), i just set up my shaders, turned on the features i wanted, and hit the render button. and this is the image came back to me.
didnt have to think "oh, is skylight gonna interfere with glossy reflection, is the adaptive aa going to catch the fine edges, what about dof.. will my PC explode in a firey ball if i add it to all this?"

nope, i just set it up, and it worked. there is no other renderer ive used so far (and ive used most) that just does what i tell it like this.

thats why b2 is special, and why certian people will love to use it more than the other renderers. its by no means perfect, and i would not claim its the best for every last situation (i uses max scanline for some things a raytracer just cant do well), but when you need to crank up all the features, it should make you quite happy.

anyhow, just some thoughts for anyone wondering why b2 might be of use to them.

later

simonenastasi
03-02-2007, 07:02 AM
...
didnt have to think "oh, is skylight gonna interfere with glossy reflection, is the adaptive aa going to catch the fine edges, what about dof.. will my PC explode in a firey ball if i add it to all this?"

nope, i just set it up, and it worked. there is no other renderer ive used so far (and ive used most) that just does what i tell it like this...


I totally agree about that. it's that simple - a bunch of stuff that needed some tweaking on B1 (interiors, or GI+Glossy mats for example) now is so simple to setup that i was laughing at my monitor, barely believing at what i was seeing. My co-worker, B1 user too, said "it's so fast that is annoying me" - then he started using B2 as well.

DrBalthar
03-02-2007, 07:42 AM
I've read an awful lot of comments with a negative vibe and I personally can't understand it at all. Shouldn't the Max community be really happy to have another great choice of renderer? I thought competition was supposed to be healthy?


It is more disappointment. I mean Brazil 2 how long is that in development? So I expected something which pushes more the envelope than what I see at these bulletpoints sure I haven't tried it yet and it is stupid to jump to this conclusion so early but still (lets say I expected a bit more). The only new render for Max so far which really pushed the envelope or into a new direction was Maxwell. With all its flaws.

simonenastasi
03-02-2007, 07:59 AM
I don't think it's ever been a secret what B2 was - anyone who have frequented splutterfish forums or seen the blog knew what was the development direction.
As ihavenofish said, features are similar in a bunch of renderers since 80's - i still remember my first radiosity cornell box in povray. The difference is how the features are implemented. There are open source renderers out there with qmc and photons... so?
And talking about features "pushing envelopes", who cares? I mean, who needs volumetric caustics? I'm so glad about the b2 directions: stable, easy setup, following max "classic" workflow, can produce any kind of image i want. Rendering 8000x6000 needed? It has not been a problem since B1 (go check in the max forum if it's the same with all other renderers...). Start using it without having to do learn a completely different workflow? That's what happened to me and a lot of other users. Rock stable? Hell yeah.
Like B1, with the features B1 missed (like 3d motion blur), stable as B1, implemented flawlessly as B1. For me this is a BIG envelope pushing, since all other renderers, for me, simply doesn't match those requisites.

PiXeL_MoNKeY
03-02-2007, 06:42 PM
It is more disappointment. I mean Brazil 2 how long is that in development? So I expected something which pushes more the envelope than what I see at these bulletpoints sure I haven't tried it yet and it is stupid to jump to this conclusion so early but still (lets say I expected a bit more). The only new render for Max so far which really pushed the envelope or into a new direction was Maxwell. With all its flaws. Then you really can't compare B2 to any other Max 3rd party render engine. Every single one of them has been in development longer than the developers wanted. Vray 1.1 which has become 1.5 was announced in 2002, the beta for 1.5 was released in 2004, and the first release candidate was release in August 2006. fR stage-2 still hasn't been released for max and there isn't even a version of stage-1 for max 9, yet. The Maxwell final release was announced multiple times and went from a built-in renderer to standalone with a translator, both of these seemed to anger potential and existing customers. So how has B2 disappointed you compared to the others?

-Eric

ZeBoxx2
03-02-2007, 11:13 PM
Just to address the scripting part for ^lele^, as I'm probably in the best position to comment on that.

I'm not sure what issues in particular you ran into with Brazil r/s v1, but in Brazil r/s v2 pretty much everything is scriptable and scripting-safe. That said, there are some issues, which I'll list below. But first... let's keep in mind that scripting allows you to do some things that you really shouldn't be doing, and will happily crash Brazil r/s or 3ds Max. Versions of 3ds Max up to and including 3ds Max 5, for example, would happily crash given the following code:


myMat = Blend()
myMat.map1 = myMat


Similarly, I'm sure that if you executed a script mid-render that changed something the current render process depends on (yes, you can do such silly things as execute script while rendering), things may go *poof* on you as well. In theory that could be prevented - much like preventing people from getting hurt by jumping in front of a speeding train by building the train out of packing peanuts.

That out of the way, here's the bits and pieces you currently can't change (properly) in Brazil r/s v2, most of which will be fixed in due time:
- no access to the include/exclude lists
- can't change the image filter
- can't adjust curve controls (adding points, etc.), much like 3ds max's curve control access, really.. while piggy-backing on that, this might not be resolvable, but will be looked into.

And that's it. Everything else you can access directly, or there's a good work-around for. In addition, the scripts library has been extended a good bit, and I fully plan on having the Brazil r/s v2 maxscript documentation to be as good as, if not better than, the Brazil r/s v1 maxscript documentation.

SuperRune
03-02-2007, 11:54 PM
My professional, objective opinion:

Hooray for Brazil 2! The bestest and most flexible renderer I know of got better! Working a couple of years in Maya with MR has made me appreciate how excellent and feature complete Brazil is integrated to 3ds max. Combine it with RPManager, and you have some serious hard-core control over every aspect of your rendering. Now I am trying my best to re-migrate back into 3ds max (with Brazil), more time spent making good stuff - less time spent trying to wrestle a renderer into doing what it's not supposed to.

Rune :)

NOTORIOUS-ro
03-03-2007, 01:00 AM
From my pov even if it has the same features as the other renders as long as it's faster brazil2 has a win here :D. Brazil2 has all you need for your renders, it might not have some of those "nifty" options.... but.. as far as I heard... it's fast :D.

Antartica
03-03-2007, 10:07 AM
I agree Brazil 1.x is very powerfull and integrated into Max, but have anyone notice that Brazil 1.x is very slow on AA sampling?
Mr or Vray are much more faster than Brazil 1.x, and not only on simple scenes, the speed of Mr 3.5 is incredible.
Has Brazil 2.0 change in the fact of the AA sampling?

MAK
03-03-2007, 10:36 AM
My professional, objective opinion:

Hooray for Brazil 2! The bestest and most flexible renderer I know of got better! Working a couple of years in Maya with MR has made me appreciate how excellent and feature complete Brazil is integrated to 3ds max. Combine it with RPManager, and you have some serious hard-core control over every aspect of your rendering. Now I am trying my best to re-migrate back into 3ds max (with Brazil), more time spent making good stuff - less time spent trying to wrestle a renderer into doing what it's not supposed to.

Rune :)
To this day, that little X35 movie you did back during the alpha/beta Brazil stage is still jaw dropping. I still remember the first time I saw it :eek::buttrock:

^Lele^
03-03-2007, 03:21 PM
Just to address the scripting part for ^lele^, as I'm probably in the best position to comment on that.

I'm not sure what issues in particular you ran into with Brazil r/s v1, but in Brazil r/s v2 pretty much everything is scriptable and scripting-safe. That said, there are some issues, which I'll list below. But first... let's keep in mind that scripting allows you to do some things that you really shouldn't be doing, and will happily crash Brazil r/s or 3ds Max. Versions of 3ds Max up to and including 3ds Max 5, for example, would happily crash given the following code:


myMat = Blend()
myMat.map1 = myMat


Similarly, I'm sure that if you executed a script mid-render that changed something the current render process depends on (yes, you can do such silly things as execute script while rendering), things may go *poof* on you as well. In theory that could be prevented - much like preventing people from getting hurt by jumping in front of a speeding train by building the train out of packing peanuts.

That out of the way, here's the bits and pieces you currently can't change (properly) in Brazil r/s v2, most of which will be fixed in due time:
- no access to the include/exclude lists
- can't change the image filter
- can't adjust curve controls (adding points, etc.), much like 3ds max's curve control access, really.. while piggy-backing on that, this might not be resolvable, but will be looked into.

And that's it. Everything else you can access directly, or there's a good work-around for. In addition, the scripts library has been extended a good bit, and I fully plan on having the Brazil r/s v2 maxscript documentation to be as good as, if not better than, the Brazil r/s v1 maxscript documentation.

Good to hear, will have great fun with the demo, then.
I had issues copying a material assignment from the listener, pasting and executing the same line.
That would crash max, no warning, pure desktop.
Compare that to scripting Mr in MEL during a production, or scripting a heap of tools for VRay in maxscript, and you'll know why i was put off.
As I said, good to hear, can't wait for the final, and demo, to be released.


Lele

simonenastasi
03-03-2007, 05:24 PM
I agree Brazil 1.x is very powerfull and integrated into Max, but have anyone notice that Brazil 1.x is very slow on AA sampling?
Mr or Vray are much more faster than Brazil 1.x, and not only on simple scenes, the speed of Mr 3.5 is incredible.
Has Brazil 2.0 change in the fact of the AA sampling?
are you kidding? AA sampling in Brazil slow? For almost any rendering min/max aa samples 1/2 are perfect. I've used both MR and Brazil, and Brazil is not slower at all - for me, is much faster in almost all situations. Are you sure you didn't crank up the settings?

Antartica
03-04-2007, 09:54 AM
No, i didnt crank it up, the default P3 sampling is terrible slow and craking the settings dow make the edges apear sometimes jagged.

Skingrimace
03-04-2007, 04:03 PM
No, i didnt crank it up, the default P3 sampling is terrible slow and craking the settings dow make the edges apear sometimes jagged.

That sounds terribly wrong.
Anyway--getting off topic.
Congrats to Splutterfish on the new release!

SG

SuperRune
03-04-2007, 10:10 PM
To thisq
To this day, that little X35 movie you did back during the alpha/beta Brazil stage is still jaw dropping. I still remember the first time I saw it :eek::buttrock:

Thanks man, quite proud of that little plane myself :) Did you see the 2K render I did of it around a year ago? I'm amazed myself at how well it holds up!

No, i didnt crank it up, the default P3 sampling is terrible slow and craking the settings dow make the edges apear sometimes jagged.

For comparison, have you tried the exact same scene in Brazil and in MR - with the exact same sampling settings? Rememember that MR undersamples by default, but I guess you know that. I've tried scenes that are very heavy on raytracing (area shadow maps, multiple raytraced rays etc), and with identical settings in v-Ray, MR and Brazil. And when it comes to pure ray crunching, Brazil beats them all in speed and memory footprint. I know also of companies that have switched their rendering pipeline away from those two renderers to Brazil for stability reasons. Of course, software is very much a personal choice, and you have to remember that this is after all just a piece software - and not something that matters much in the grand scheme of things. But its hard to not get fanatic when it's this good :applause:

I'll shut up now :)

Rune

MAK
03-04-2007, 10:38 PM
Thanks man, quite proud of that little plane myself :) Did you see the 2K render I did of it around a year ago? I'm amazed myself at how well it holds up!

No :eek: Where can't I find it ?

MAK

SuperRune
03-05-2007, 08:12 AM
No :eek: Where can't I find it ?

Here you go!
http://www.runespaans.com/offsite/2006/f35_2k.jpg

Rune

MAK
03-05-2007, 12:00 PM
Here you go!
http://www.runespaans.com/offsite/2006/f35_2k.jpg

Rune

Thanks!!! :scream:

MAK

blakshep
03-05-2007, 01:50 PM
do brazil2 have any kind of hair solution? I haven't see anything about this, not in the feature list nor the beta images. converting to polys or compositing is not so much fun i think

PiXeL_MoNKeY
03-05-2007, 06:24 PM
Does it work with Hair and Fur in the same manner as Scanline? Yes. Does it have a native Fur option like the mental ray Hair Primitive? No. Is there plan to include something like the mental ray Hair Primitive? Possibly, there has been no announcement of a similar feature yet, but that does not mean it won't happen. Again asking at the Splutterfish forums on features like this may be your best option as that forum is watched by the Splutterfish employees.

-Eric

hominid
03-05-2007, 06:36 PM
My wish list would include a maya/standalone version with unlimited render nodes. And fast motion blur that doesn't slow down when combined with DOF or displacement.

I can dream can't I?

Congrats to the fishies team from an old time max user. (I still thought "ghost" was the cooler name)

Cheers,
Pete

soulburn3d
03-05-2007, 09:54 PM
(I still thought "ghost" was the cooler name)

It was an awesome name, but alas, someone else already had "taken" it.

- Neil

cptvideo
03-06-2007, 07:23 PM
do brazil2 have any kind of hair solution? I haven't see anything about this, not in the feature list nor the beta images. converting to polys or compositing is not so much fun i think

Hi,

Brazil 2 supports all the hair solutions that work in max scanline now. It's not in the feature list as it's just comes along with having a high degree of compatibility with max's plugin/rendering api.

urgaffel
03-10-2007, 11:18 AM
To this day, that little X35 movie you did back during the alpha/beta Brazil stage is still jaw dropping. I still remember the first time I saw it :eek::buttrock:

Don't forget SuperRunes cartoony Hellboy clip. It was awesome... And showed just how good B1 is/was at toon rendering :)

I can't wait for a demo of B2, I loved B1 but couldn't afford it so I had to go with MR :sad:

iSOBigD
03-10-2007, 02:06 PM
Could anyone tell me how the displacements work now with version 2?

I know 1 didn't support them (or gave you an extremely low poly result) and MR, for example seems to subdivide objects (very slow) where as Vray is much faster and more precise...I also hear PRman does some actual pixel pushing instead of trying to use geometry so I hear it's extremely fast compared to everything else (its AA's supposed to barely affect render times too).

Also I'm not sure if there are some plugins or something for MR, because the AA in it is just atrocious by default...and turning the samples up barely improves things, while slowing down render times by way too much considering the quality. Did Brazil R/S 2's performace with AA improve? (not that it wasn't fine before, but only the higher settings look good, where as something like VRay has some nice adaptive AA with good performance/quality even at lower settings)

I look forward to testing it for myself, but if anyone already knows the answers, feel free to tell me. :)

Rif
03-10-2007, 06:17 PM
"the Orphanage did some really nice creature work w/ fume and brazil 1 in the Host -- i'll look into getting some stills or something for the website -- it's pretty cool."

just a Rectification about that answer from CptVideo .. Nothing to take off from Brazil compatibility with Fume Fx , but the Truth is , this Fx work with Fume for the Host was All rendered in Final Render.. not to burst any bubble but my decision back in the time was based on power , speed , gi speed , and many other xtra ( aa , compatibility and speed of implementation of features needed , etc..) . As an addon , Same thing happend on the fx Sequence that i did for Superman Returns and Dongeon Sciege , final Render was the Key of the Delivrability of my sequences using FumeFx .


neverthe less , i m glad for the brazil community that Brazil 2 finnally Comes out ! :)

Skingrimace
03-13-2007, 01:50 AM
"the Orphanage did some really nice creature work w/ fume and brazil 1 in the Host -- i'll look into getting some stills or something for the website -- it's pretty cool."

just a Rectification about that answer from CptVideo .. Nothing to take off from Brazil compatibility with Fume Fx , but the Truth is , this Fx work with Fume for the Host was All rendered in Final Render.. not to burst any bubble but my decision back in the time was based on power , speed , gi speed , and many other xtra ( aa , compatibility and speed of implementation of features needed , etc..) . As an addon , Same thing happend on the fx Sequence that i did for Superman Returns and Dongeon Sciege , final Render was the Key of the Delivrability of my sequences using FumeFx .


neverthe less , i m glad for the brazil community that Brazil 2 finnally Comes out ! :)

You're just talking about particles, right rif?

In regard to full-on CG frames, Brazil 1 and 2 (beta) proved key to getting my shots out for Superman and several other shows. Mental Ray and V-Ray could not handle the raytracing required, or had too large a memory footprint, or just too long. Final Render was not even an option.

SG

Rif
03-13-2007, 02:06 AM
Hey SG ,

I m not talking about anything ( i m not the one who mentioned anything first ) .. I m rectifying an Afffirmation that is CLearly Stating :

Fume Fx and the characters of the Host where rendered in Brazil 1 .. Witch is not a true statement as i mentionned , everything that was Fume Fx on the Host was Renderered in Final Render.. ( no exception from my side , and as far as i remember Spaw ( cause i just saw ur post right after this one ) , i did do all the fx Fire \ smoke shots with Joe on that show )

Also about Superman and Dongeon sciege , that was ALso in the Topic of Fume Fx WOrk At the O and the Correct Addon is Still valid as it was renderered in Final Render..All though in the case of Superman Return only , Brendon was Rendering in Normal max Scanliner his couples of shots ..

Yes their character pipeline Was in Brazil back when those movies where done.. And Btw i must add , The Host Creature Renders did looked Fantastic! And this movie was a Great Team work and efforts from all the departements i must add ..

As of "Final Render was not even an option" : I really doubt the fact that you actually know it to say something like that.. Many Full cg shots has been done in Final Render and All my productions pipelines ( mainly particles yah cause well i m only an Fx lead) are delivring with FR successfully and brilliantly .. For the raytracing Not able to be handled etc ... we have Some real Clever way in Fr ( current and Upcoming versions) to minimize memory footprint as well .. More to come in the futur for sure ( on the Character production part) but ya , this post isnt about me or my work methodologies ..

Their are Plenty of good renderers and different methods in max witch i think we ( Max users) are lucky to have.. I think you use whatever fits production best, or whatever you can afford to buy..


Good Luck Brazil 2 ! i like that Displacement Implicit Surface method ;) ..

spaw
03-13-2007, 02:07 AM
As the supe here at the Orphanage for all the fire and smoke shots using fume in the Host Id like to make a correction to rifs statement. We used scanline, Brazil and FR depending on the shot. rif did a fantastic job on the sequence and I know we all really appreciated his contribution. That being said, it would be a mistake to attribute all of the credit to any particular tool. especially on that sequence. We use a whole range of tools here at the O and Brazil as well as Mr are the two renderers of choice due to speed, ease of use and quality. The Host herself was rendered entirely in Brazil. And we currently render Fume in Brazil.

Thanks

Michael Spaw
Sequence Supe
The Orphanage.

cptvideo
03-13-2007, 02:24 AM
...Fx work with Fume for the Host was All rendered in Final Render...


Hi Rif,

Let me clarify what I meant to say before. When I said, "fume and brazil 1 in the Host," I didn't mean to imply that ALL fume was rendered in B1 -- I meant that fume was used is in the Host, *and* Brazil 1 was used in the Host (the thread was actively talking about fume and brazil 1, so it seemed relevant -- so much for my attempt at being concise). I didn't know if fume had been rendered with Brazil at all, but I knew fume was being used on the film and I was fairly certain that fume shots were being rendered in scanline (i saw the jobs running on one of my visits).

It took a lot of people to get those shots out and the work is really awesome. *Your* work on there is really awesome :) The film just got released here in the states and it's already getting surprisingly good reviews -- Congrats to everyone involved :) I wasn't going to bother driving an hour to go see it, but it sounds like this is one that's worth seeing on the big-screen.

Rif
03-13-2007, 06:16 AM
Thanks Mr Scott and Mr Spaw.. I wasnt searching those kinds words to receive but its really apreciated .. i think the project was really good and challenging and the Teams in all the different departements were amazing, also Kresimir did an Amazing job and obviusly that lead to a quality of work that speacks for it self ..
I just hope the Di didnt breack the colors on the Fire and the smoke ( like what prichard told me recently on the phone ) and that it still looks good on big screen

Congrats for Brazil 2 release .

opus13
03-13-2007, 05:48 PM
VRay are very phyiscally based where as in Brazil they've been traditionally artist-friendly.

sooo... vray is reality based, whereas brazil is just arbitrary?

not being a brazil user, this sure doesnt make a product sound attractive. utilizing known values as a foundation makes a product accessible in real world terms with a common platform of knowledge, no?

:shrug:

soulburn3d
03-13-2007, 06:11 PM
sooo... vray is reality based, whereas brazil is just arbitrary?

not being a brazil user, this sure doesnt make a product sound attractive. utilizing known values as a foundation makes a product accessible in real world terms with a common platform of knowledge, no?

Not having used vray in production, I can't speak to whether the initial statement is true.

However, having lot of experience using "physical based" shaders/renderers, let me say that they're not always everything they're cracked up to be. Yes, you can get realistic results quickly, but the moment the director says "make it more blue", and you have to say "I can't, because in reality it isn't more blue and my software isn't customizable enough to let me deviate from reality", well, that sorta talk gets you fired.

In my experience, getting something close to photoreal quickly is definately something brazil is good at (the last 10% is of course almost always up to the eye of the artist), and then when the director asks you for all those little tweaks that directors ask for, you have all the tools necessary to make those adjustements.

- Neil

AdrianWilliams
03-13-2007, 06:32 PM
well said Neil!

J-K
03-13-2007, 08:15 PM
I couldn't agree more with Neil, renderers that claim to be physically accurate, and reflect it in their options and set-up do not necessarily mean they're better or more accessible for everyone. For a start, photo-realism isn't always the goal and it isn't always what looks best. Artists should have the power to achieve their vision, and software that allows them to do that without the need for substantial technical knowledge or restrictions imposed by technical rigidity can be more appealing.

Look at the Vray forums, the vast majority of work on display is architecture and still life. I'm by no means suggesting that's all it can do, but there are very few characters which suggests that most arch-viz guys and the like consider Vray their renderer of choice, and rightfully so (although Brazil 2 looks like it can now compete on that front). However, it'd be ridiculous to try and compare Vray's FastSSS skin equivalent to Mental Ray's shader. There's no competition. Just as those renderers have their strengths and weaknesses, so does Brazil. It's great that there's choice and so different artists with different goals will choose different software. It's a matter of using what works best for you.

SuperRune
03-13-2007, 10:52 PM
However, having lot of experience using "physical based" shaders/renderers, let me say that they're not always everything they're cracked up to be. Yes, you can get realistic results quickly, but the moment the director says "make it more blue", and you have to say "I can't, because in reality it isn't more blue and my software isn't customizable enough to let me deviate from reality", well, that sorta talk gets you fired.

So very very true. Well put Neil! I would choose flexibility, overrides and options over any physical renderer. You really have to try it out and play with the features to know what this means.

(I dare say that the most prominent visual artists - be it photographers, painters or 3D artists - creates outstanding work because they enhance and tweak reality - not because they merely simulate or copy it. At least that seems to be the case with the people I am inspired by.)

Rune

captainchet
03-13-2007, 11:13 PM
Exactly what I think about the subject Neil, well said. :thumbsup:

instinct-vfx
03-13-2007, 11:35 PM
I actually posted before already, but the server was overloaded. Anyways, just to put that straight. Havent used Brazil in production yet, but am using Vray on a daily Basis in Production, and couldnt disagree more with opus' statement. Vray CAN render "unbiased"
But it is definately NOT a physically renderer like Maxwell. Actually ANY renderer out there (besides NPR renderers) is physically based, heck that's what we're all trying to mimic when it comes to photorealism, eh ? But vray doesnt force you to do that. You HAVE a physical cam, but you can use standard Cams. You HAVE a progresive Pathtracing mode that is rather unbiased. But you can create a scene with Max standard mats, standard lights, standard cams and go tweak and fake as you wish.

Sorry. Just had the impression that Vray was put in a corner that it doesnt belong to in my eyes... :D

Regards,
Thorsten

cptvideo
03-14-2007, 01:36 AM
opus13: I wasn't gonna touch that original statement as i really felt it was potential flamebait :)

I feel the characterization that Brazil isn't "physically based" is misleading. Brazil started out (pre-ghost) as basically a lighting simulator -- you turned it on, light bounced around, and image came out, complete with GI and caustics for free -- it treated the 3ds max scene as a physical environment and ran a lighting simulation on it.

Brazil, mathematically, is "physically accurate" and can still be run as a lighting simulator, but the goal of Brazil r/s is not limited to being "physically correct". The toolset is not directed solely to that end -- it's a creative tool for cg artists, developed alongside and in cooperation with creatives. A large portion of our customer base is arch viz -- and I think with Brazil, they're doing the best viz work out there, precisely because they have the ability to be as physically correct or creatively and controllably "incorrect" as they want. They have an edge, as many have told us, over their competitors because they can achieve a wider range of looks for their clients.

In order for a renderer in max to be truly "physically correct" it would have to be incompatible with all kinds of features that we all rely on. It couldn't support standard materials and material editing in 3ds max, it couldn't support 3ds max's basic lights or lighting model, and it couldn't support max's atmospherics and environment settings, highlights, saturated colors, etc., etc.

The point is that phrases like, "physically accurate," are very big discussions and using them (or interpreting them) in a sweeping way is misleading and treacherous. When a vendor makes a claim about something being physically "accurate" or "correct" or "based", they need to be clear about what they mean. Chances are they don't mean they are globally simulating reality, and flexibility outside of physical bounds doesn't make a creative tool arbitrary, subjective or "wrong". If it did, Brazil imagery wouldn't look as good, or as invisible on film, as it does.

In the industry, I think the phrase "physically accurate" is seen as some kind of code for "you don't need to be an artist, it's automatic" -- and that's just not true. Visualization and rendering is not a technicians job - yet. You could remove heaps of tools and options from 3ds max, perhaps, presenting the technician with only the "physically approved" ones, and then set up the pipeline so your renderer only ran with "physically approved" settings, but that tech is still not going to be able to compete with someone with a full, flexible toolset, a bit of artistic skill, and some understanding of how light works.

I gotta say I really hate this whole "physically based" and "physically accurate" discussion when it comes to rendering, especially when using a tool with as much flexibility as 3ds max. And if you're talking about presets alone, presets don't make a tool more physically accurate. I think Brazil 2 probably has more physical IOR presets and IES support than anything else to date. We had a great discussion about some more 'preset' oriented materials during the beta, and we'll probably be going that direction, but please realize that there's a whole lot more to physical accuracy then a vendor throwing presets in the box and saying they're physically based.

ihavenofish
03-14-2007, 03:22 AM
phisically what?

ive spent the last 2 weeks doing 4k feature film shots of wireframe. and im doing it with b2.

sounds completely silly, but scanline was taking over an hour a frame, and had major aliasing issues and no control over edging. we were using multipass for moblur, and it was banding and slow as hell.

b2 so far (not done) looks infinitely better, doesnt alias, moblurs smooth, has actual control, and renders only slightly slower. so thats what were using. its a little mor anal about geometry setup than scanline (were blending it with transparencies and absorbtion), but a few minutes of tweaking saves a ton of grief.

tried final toon, it just puked up a mess of lines and was far too convoluted to be bothered with in the end. it was also super slow.

seems like with all the drive to make everything all pretty and "photoreal", the simple things have gotton left behind. if you do only one thing all day every day, maybe a narrowly focussed renderer is ok, but most of us probaly dont, and cant afford either the cost or hassle of running 4-5 different renderers in one shot. i think b2 manages to cover more useful area than any other single renderer.

later.

simonenastasi
07-09-2007, 12:08 PM
None still mentioned that B2 went 64bit?
Here (http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/WebContent/PressBrazil2x64bitAnnouncement) the press release.

CGTalk Moderation
07-09-2007, 12:08 PM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.