CGTalk - Proper Face Topology Model...Crit Please

gnarlycranium

02-28-2003, 03:30 PM

Looks like you've got the right idea with it!

I would recommend running the edges on the bridge of the nose right up through the forehead instead of terminating them right there, you can always use the detail for wrinkles when the face frowns, that area moves a lot. Also you should probably figure out a cleaner way of adding the rows for wrinkles along the forehead, instead of making a 6-sided polygon at each end.

I would also recommend maybe simplifying the whole thing a little bit-- you might end up with this amount of detail in the end anyhow, but having a lower res version of a head model is always a good idea, it's an easier starting point.

Be sure to check the Topology Research sticky thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=435441) in the Modeling section for more handy info on this stuff, if you haven't seen it already.

Are3D

02-28-2003, 04:55 PM

http://www.expression.edu/~elmokilla/Stuff/TheDevil.jpg

Other than that good job on the model. Good geo is key in making a good model.

giantrobot

02-28-2003, 06:49 PM

I have done some updating based on these replies.

I ditched the wrinkles for now...mostly because I do not understand if 1 wrinkle should be 3 parallel rows of edges or just 2. When I render, they just look like weird flatspots on the forhead. I also "softened" her overall look, and un-cubed her overall shape.

also, Are3d...is the schematic on the left the edge of a wrinkle? just want to be sure. also, I tried the upper lip stuff that you drew (thanks btw) and I kept getting triangles and messed up edge loops around the muzzle.

Keep the feedback coming and I'll keep posting improvements (i hope :)

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update1.jpg

giantrobot

02-28-2003, 08:58 PM

i thought i would see how it actually looks rendered. I always like them better in wireframe...

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update2.jpg

I still need to work on some of the "cube-ness" of it. there are spots...like the top eyelid, that are too inorganic still.

also, what methods do people thing are best for eyelid animation? splide deform? morph? are there Maya-like clusters in Max5?

Are3D

02-28-2003, 11:40 PM

It was tuff for me to when i had to learn how to get the mouth spans to go to the nose cornerwithout getting any tri's, but keep trying. Get that geo right and yes its is a little picture to show you how to end an edge so you don’t have to run it all the way back.

Are3D

02-28-2003, 11:47 PM

Sorry for the unclear image above, i think this will help you out.

http://www.expression.edu/~elmokilla/Stuff/Smoothed.jpg

http://www.expression.edu/~elmokilla/Stuff/Edges.jpg

Just mimic that into your model and you got your wrinkles.

giantrobot

03-01-2003, 02:54 AM

awesome...thanks for the visuals.

Man, I love this website.

Are3D

03-01-2003, 03:08 AM

No problem. 3D is so fun!

gnarlycranium

03-01-2003, 10:39 AM

Aw heck yeah, now yer rockin! :buttrock:

Next recommendations:

At least once, try to make the model as SIMPLE as you can make it. How difficult it is to get it properly head-shaped is directly proportionate to how dense the mesh is. You'll always want to start with a low-density mesh to get the general shape, and add details later. I'd go so far as to say this model is maybe twice as dense as you need for that. Yes, it will probably end up this detailed later, and it's good to know how you'll have it laid out at that point, but it's good practice, and easier workflow, to make a simpler mesh to work with. Yes, it'll look a bit funny. Lips and eyelids with no definition, a lump for a nose-- but in the long run it'll make your life easier.

And again, at least once, I'd suggest you get ahold of some good photo reference of a person, and try to make the model look like them. That will give you a much better familiarity with what the shapes are supposed to be like, and help you get away from the 'box-ness' that's giving you trouble. Be sure to include not only profile and front shots, but some good perspective angles too, so you get the proper roundness. If you want to give that a try, I'll be writing up a wee tutorial page for that kind of thing.

*edit* oh, and don't worry too much about closing the mouth, if the lips are a little parted it's much easier to work on them.

giantrobot

03-01-2003, 01:20 PM

sweet, thanks. I actually did make this one a bit simpler...mostly up in the eye/forehead area.

not much but it is a start. I want to make the area near the edges of the mouth and up to the low cheeks less dense, because I am getting some weird waviness there.

I want to be carefull not to get too realistic with the model, because I do want it stylized to match my 2d art...but you are right, a little referrence never hurt anyone. I left this model at work, so until someone sends me my file I started a new head...this time in Maya.
http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/mayaman_stage1.jpg

I am going to try to keep things simpler with this guy, and not to make the same mistakes. I am using MJPolyTools for edgeloop edits...but is there something better? i saw nothing in Maya 4.5.

gnarlycranium

03-03-2003, 08:47 AM

Rockin, rockin along....

You can probably get rid of 2 of the rows of edges going from the eye to the bridge of the nose, for now, to stick with the simplicity-- overall it looks like you're really getting the hang of it.

I didn't know you were going for a stylized look, haven't seen your 2d work, so by all means don't worry about the realism... it's just a good excersize to do.

As for the tools... I myself don't know a thing about Maya, so I can't help you there.

Keep going, you've got the hang of it now! Wanna see what you come up with! :D

giantrobot

03-03-2003, 06:35 PM

I am considering making a new, more modern version of a head that I did 4 1/2 years ago for a game called System Shock. Here is the art (modelled, i think, with those metaball-worm things in max2)

Shodan:
http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/FullSizerender%20copy.jpg

Or i will come up with a new cool looking female character. I have no way to do good hair in Max5, so Shodan makes for a good concept.

Anyway, here is the model as of today. Started an ear and did a lot of tiny tweaks to soften areas and re-proportion others.

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update3.jpg

P_T

03-03-2003, 11:17 PM

u modelled shodan?!? system shock I & II is my all time favourite game!!! i still play them from time to time... wat else did u design in that game?

E.Z. Schwartz

03-04-2003, 01:36 AM

Hey Giant Robot, what part of RI are you from?

giantrobot

03-04-2003, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by P_T
u modelled shodan?!? system shock I & II is my all time favourite game!!! i still play them from time to time... wat else did u design in that game?

Yup...that was me. For SS2, I did the model, maps, animation, lighting and renders of the Shodan cutscenes and the art that was on the box. In fact, on the box there is just Shodan's eyes, but the original layout was what you see earlier in this post.

The reference for that cover was the woman who cut my hair...pretty funny.

That is all I did for that specific game because back then I only did high-poly CG, but now I am working on PS2 games as Art Director, etc.

I am psyched that you liked it!

giantrobot

03-04-2003, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by E.Z. Schwartz
Hey Giant Robot, what part of RI are you from?

EZ-
I am from Providence too. I get the feeling that we have had this exchange before...I can't remember.

Were you a claymation kid when you were in high school or something? That rings a bell.

P_T

03-04-2003, 02:48 AM

man... i can't believe it... i get to talk to one of the guy that design my favourite game... this forum rocks!!:buttrock:

actually i been trying to model some weapons/mech from that game but can't find any good reference... so wat i did was making approximate sketches from the in-game screenshot... anyway u can help me with the sketches? hehehe... :cool:

giantrobot

03-04-2003, 05:55 AM

Originally posted by P_T
man... i can't believe it... i get to talk to one of the guy that design my favourite game... this forum rocks!!:buttrock:

actually i been trying to model some weapons/mech from that game but can't find any good reference...

go to http://www.sshock2.com/ss2mmdb/artwork.htm

There are some refs for some weapons, and a lot of other stuff too. Root around and see if you find anything good. People there are pretty friendly and could maybe hook you up.

If you are desperate, I could call my friends at Irrational Games and see if they have any good ref photos. The game is old so I bet it is a pain for them.
:surprised

gnarlycranium

03-04-2003, 07:42 AM

I'd say something excitable about that game myself..... only I've never even heard of it. :D Totally awesome that you're a pro, dude..... now I feel kinda funny for givin ya advice.

Anyway... now show us a front and side view of that head of yours! I could be wrong, but right now what's jumping out at me is that her upper eyelids look like they're sunk back too far in her head.

*edit* whoa... some of the stuff on that website is freaky-cool!

P_T

03-04-2003, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by Gnarly Cranium
*edit* whoa... some of the stuff on that website is freaky-cool!

dude, the game itself is "freaky cool" as u call it hehehe... u should try it!! the graphic maybe out of date but it still have one helluva game play and after u played it, u will know where the folks who made Deus Ex got their idea from... SS I and II were ahead of their time...

giantrobot > thanks for the info!!!

giantrobot

03-04-2003, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Gnarly Cranium
Totally awesome that you're a pro, dude..... now I feel kinda funny for givin ya advice.

Anyway... now show us a front and side view of that head of yours! I could be wrong, but right now what's jumping out at me is that her upper eyelids look like they're sunk back too far in her head.

No biggie. Any Pro that can not take advice is no Pro.

Here She is so far. I was unable to do too much yeasterday. Her ear is attached in a funky was, but I will not worry about that until later.

The big thing that I notice is her weak jaw. There is no definition on the sides...you know, where the ear is?
http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update4.jpg

E.Z. Schwartz

03-04-2003, 05:05 PM

Her head seams way to stretched out in Z. It's looking pretty good from the front, but the side looks way off. I agree that her jaw could use some more definition.

By the way, check your PM.

Ezra

giantrobot

03-10-2003, 07:04 AM

here is a new update.

-real modeled eyes
-better jawline, eye shape, cheeks, chin

the lighting and texturing is just temporary. I wanted something more realistic than the standard lights.

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update5.jpg

I am going to try some texture mapping now...i think.

giantrobot

03-10-2003, 09:55 PM

more mapping (color, specular, bump)

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update6.jpg

I have decided not to do another shodan...but instead do a similar being. Hence the coloration. Who knows what I am going to do with the hair...Max has no really good hair solution (that I know of).

gnarlycranium

03-10-2003, 09:58 PM

Hair is a whole little ickiness fest of its own....

and the nose and eyes on that model could probably use a bit more work before you go all-out on texturing-- show some other views maybe?

giantrobot

03-10-2003, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Gnarly Cranium
...and the nose and eyes on that model could probably use a bit more work before you go all-out on texturing-- show some other views maybe?

Here are some other views. I will use other lighting setups in the next render too...so that I might expose some flaws.

I like to do a little texturing when I get close to finished with the model just to mix things up a bit and keep my interest :)

Ignore the little dorsal fin on her head...I'll deal later.

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update7.jpg

giantrobot

03-10-2003, 11:08 PM

more angles and wires:

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update8.jpg

gnarlycranium

03-10-2003, 11:42 PM

Ahh.. starting to see things a bit better. Could still use a straight front and profile shot, though, just to get a clear notion of things.

Looks like her neck is wayyy far back, and her brow could probably stick out a little farther to give the area above her eyes some substance. The eyes themselves look pretty good-- just tone down the reflection map some in a few parts, the busyness of it is washing out the eyes a little... or maybe it's just that the cornea isn't totally transparent? Hard to say.

There's an odd trough or divot alongside her nose at the level of her eyes... try to envision the eye socket itself more in that area, there should be a nice little slope from the nose to the area just below the eye. If that makes any sense...

misterboogie

03-10-2003, 11:56 PM

Great progress on this head. The proportions are starting to come together. My only crit is would be to make the poles of the head on the side. The reason for this is because the ear will need those extra edges and it keeps you from creating 3 and 5 sided faces where the ear meets the head.

On a side note, if you worked on System Shock you must have worked with my buddy Scott Blinn. I think he was the producer on that game?? He's still in your area trying to start a game company called VinylX.

giantrobot

03-11-2003, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by Gnarly Cranium
-- just tone down the reflection map some in a few parts, the busyness of it is washing out the eyes a little... or maybe it's just that the cornea isn't totally transparent? Hard to say.

yeah, I am experimenting with Max's raytrace material with transparency etc...dont really have it yet. I cannot find any details on how to use it yet. I'll keep playing around.

Originally posted by Gnarly Cranium There's an odd trough or divot alongside her nose at the level of her eyes... try to envision the eye socket itself more in that area, there should be a nice little slope from the nose to the area just below the eye. If that makes any sense...

Do you mean parallel to the nose bridge or around the eye socket?

giantrobot

03-11-2003, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by miyamoto
Great progress on this head. The proportions are starting to come together. My only crit is would be to make the poles of the head on the side. The reason for this is because the ear will need those extra edges and it keeps you from creating 3 and 5 sided faces where the ear meets the head.

On a side note, if you worked on System Shock you must have worked with my buddy Scott Blinn. I think he was the producer on that game?? He's still in your area trying to start a game company called VinylX.

Thanks!
I can't figure out how to do the pole thing off of the top of my head...but I will take a look at it in Max and try to get it. I need to fix the 6 sided poly at the wrinkle in the forehead too.

I do not know Scott. I was a "hired gun" at that point so I only knew a few of the people at LG.

gnarlycranium

03-11-2003, 02:40 AM

Parallel to the side of the nose. Really, at that point, the side of the nose IS part of the eye socket. Dangit, I need some pictures to explain this...

giantrobot

03-11-2003, 05:17 AM

I think I see what you mean.

Here is a new render with a front and side. I made the head DRASTICALLY less deep, front to back (thanks to soft select!).

Added lashes. I need to get rid of the ugly painted brows and fix the throat.

I am getting to the point where it is just "real" enough for my liking. I do not want to make too many adjustments to it for "reality's sake" since this is meant to be stylized. Now I mostly want to just fix things that are sort of wrong...like the nose/eye thing you mentioned, G-Cranium.

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update9.jpg

Mcf

03-11-2003, 05:26 AM

getting better and better :)

the pupils are great :), though the eyes look a bit deformed in the front view (could also be a illusion of mine :D )

neck could use a litte more details.
hope to see soon more :D

cheers mcf

giantrobot

03-11-2003, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Mcf
getting better and better :)

the pupils are great :), though the eyes look a bit deformed in the front view (could also be a illusion of mine :D )

neck could use a litte more details.
hope to see soon more :D

cheers mcf

Thanks- Yeah, I think it is the fish-eye of the lens. It looks good in other views, y'know? Also, I am going to start work on the neck soon...once I start moving down to create a torso. My original intent was to make just a head but now I am thinking of moving downward.

gnarlycranium

03-12-2003, 02:12 AM

Awwww, pic ain't showin up! :annoyed:

giantrobot

03-12-2003, 06:49 AM

I tried to incorporate everyone's comments.

I think I like it all...except that the brow might be too masculine now. (the changes also made a few lumps...but I will get those soon :) )

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update10.jpg

giantrobot

03-12-2003, 07:37 AM

anyone have a good skin "pore" tile or texture...or a link? Maybe a little tutorial?

giantrobot

03-12-2003, 02:03 PM

better brow and cranium in profile:

(still some lumps)

also, began putting Poles at ears.

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update12.jpg

Grub

03-13-2003, 03:11 PM

Giantrobot, she's shaping up nicely.:thumbsup:
Here's a suggestion: you might want to consider making the bridge of the nose (in side profile) slope concavely, to further her femininity.:)

giantrobot

03-14-2003, 04:42 AM

Grub-

Thanks for the idea. I did go and change her nose a bit, making the top bump a little smaller and a bigger bump toward the tip. Once she has hair or whatever, I might revisit the bumped now...just because I like that look. Without the hair though, it is a bit too masculine, you are right. :)

I also tweaked the areas to the sides of the nose between the eyes, making it slope a bit more. There was a wierd lump there before.

Also, on the left, I am trying to get a decent shin shader in 3dsMax. It has been to "wet". I cant find any good setting online, so I am just experimenting. I was hoping to find a good, tiling skin tex too, so I do not have to paint all of the pores/tiny wrinkles :annoyed:

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update13.jpg

giantrobot

03-14-2003, 07:56 AM

trying a hair concept where bundles of wires or hair are stuck into her skin via metal talons.

Not sure if it will work out.

Still need to figure out the eyebrows.

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update14.jpg

gnarlycranium

03-14-2003, 08:03 AM

That's definitely some good fixing you've done to the brow area! And the nose problem, too! There's probably still some tweaking you can do around the eyes-- they've got little troughs under them and that doesn't quite look right. Think of the lower eyelid as something that poofs OUT around the lower curve of the eye, rather than something that has a line etched IN under it. If that makes sense.

I like that hair, though it doesn't so much say 'talon' to me as 'cable plugs' ! Heh... um if they're metal talons dug in, I'd expect to see indentations around them, maybe with lips of skin, but nothing that sticks up as far as what you've got here.

giantrobot

03-14-2003, 09:24 AM

cool.

Yeah, I noticed those dips by the eyes.

As far the hair...once I figure out what I want, I will make sure it looks good. Right now it is place-holdery. The talon thingies will never really be seen, but it just helps me imagine thier connection to the skull. Here is a shot of the talon-things. (also, notice the change around the ears. Miyamoto's recommendation. It is not the best job in the world...but I think it is as far as I will go on this model. I will try to get it right from the start of the next model :) )

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/talonupload.jpg http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update15.jpg

giantrobot

03-14-2003, 01:09 PM

oh yeah...i forgot to say that she will have a bunch of those hair thingys...not just the 5 piece mullet :)

giantrobot

03-17-2003, 08:48 AM

OK...So I just wasn't that into the dreads.

I decided to pull out a concept sketch that I did and retro fit it for this head.

Here is the sketch:

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/portfolio/conceptart/concept2.jpg

and here I am so far:

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update16.jpg

I am not sure if I will do the facepaint like in the drawing since I spent some time making the current texture...but I might. I use that design in a bunch of my characters so it might be fun.

giantrobot

03-17-2003, 01:40 PM

more:

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update17.jpg

fgalpern

03-18-2003, 02:18 PM

This model is looking really nice so far.

I'd like to see some imperfections in either the model itself or in the map. Less symmetry to create a more realistic face.
As for the dreadlocks, I liked them very much. Maybe they could be sticking out from under the new headdress?

Could somebody could post a link to the proper face topology rules that have been referred to here?

giantrobot

03-18-2003, 08:42 PM

yup, I am going to do asymmetrical edits to every part once I get "the whole" done. Good point.

Here is a good link by Bay Raitt and Greg Minter
http://www.izware.com/news/indexa446.html

and this link is awesome:
http://maxrovat.sns.hu/subdiv/

giantrobot

03-20-2003, 05:59 AM

Here is an update for the few of you checking the tread :)

I have been taking my spare moments to try and get the headpiece done.

Here is a render. This sucker is significant to me, because it is my 1st forray into HDRI rendering. WOOHOO.

I love it. It messed up the eyes in that they have no shading, and the maps are all super detailed, exposing every paint mark I made (weird). I will fix all of that later.

On the other hand, Holy Mackerel...the reflections in the eyes and the overall lighting is RAD...especially considering i ditched all of my lights but 1 skylight and am not using brazil.

hooomama.

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update18.jpg

giantrobot

03-20-2003, 02:47 PM

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update18_wire.jpg

giantrobot

04-09-2003, 07:37 PM

pretty soon, I am going to move this to a new thread in the texturing section...because I am looking for some help there (and rendering), but here is what she is looking like as of today:

http://www.ryanlesser.com/images/webviewing/girl_update25_small.jpg

fgalpern

04-09-2003, 11:04 PM

This is looking super suh-wheet!
Minor crits -

- the chrome pieces look very thin, alomst like a piece of chromed film. is that what you are going for? if not i think a little bit of trim around the edges might help.

- the way the "ea-ring" thingy attaches to the chin strap looks a little fudged. maybe boolean a hole or something?

like i wrote, minor crits. you should be proud of this piece. it's awesome!

giantrobot

04-10-2003, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by fgalpern
- the chrome pieces look very thin, alomst like a piece of chromed film. is that what you are going for? if not i think a little bit of trim around the edges might help.

- the way the "ea-ring" thingy attaches to the chin strap looks a little fudged. maybe boolean a hole or something?

Thanks

1- the reflective pieces are actually too thick i think. If you look a tiny bit closer, you will see that they are like a centimeter in thickness. They are meant to be the material in mirrored glasses (sort of). I am having some troubles with HDRI rendering and achieving translucency...but I am trying to solve that.

2-yuk...no booleans. This whole thread started because I wanted to use only proper face topology. But you are right, maybe I should model some holes and bevels for the ring to go into. I will try it tonight.:)

Wetterschneider

04-10-2003, 03:05 PM

giantrobot, a little suggestion, reduce the brightness of the eyeball by adding a little of your blood color to the whites (which in this case would be blue or maybe bluegreen. The back of the eyeball can be a rather dark gluegreen, for example, ramping to a pale bluegreen at the outside edge of the iris. This will help set the eyes into the head, and help "turn" the eyeball, making it seem more spherical. Anyway, good job.

giantrobot

04-10-2003, 04:23 PM

Wetterschneider-

Thanks, that is a good idea. There is a little of that, but clearly not enough. I will try it today. I also made some changes based on fgalperns suggestions...ill post them all tonight. (after i see Rob Zombie's House of 1000 Corpses) ;)

childplay

04-10-2003, 05:07 PM

Really nice,

see you do not need help.. keep up the good work

all the best
nikola

Ech0

04-10-2003, 05:47 PM

boy did this model come a long way! great job what method did you use for modeling this seeing as how you said this was a completely diffrent way

giantrobot

04-11-2003, 05:52 AM

Childplay- Thanks a lot. I am trying!

Ech0- I used max5 with all of the downloadable bells and whistles that folks have made to enhance edge-loop modeling (mjpolytools, etc). In addition, my main concern was to use all of the "rules" that folks have developed for clean polymodeling (ie face topology).

KINGOFPAIN

04-11-2003, 05:58 AM

:thumbsup:

giantrobot

04-16-2003, 07:29 AM

Thanks everyone!

my topology test is clearly over, and this has now evolved into a full blown render...so I am starting a new WIP thread based on the new render.

here is the link to the new thread...THANKS! (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56392)