Julez4001
02-13-2007, 11:47 PM
or it could be called Messiah 2.7c, whatever it is, do you think the aniamtion tools should be priority or render capabilities.
View Full Version : Messiah 3: animation tools or better render?
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Parsec3d
02-14-2007, 12:06 AM
Animation.
T4D
02-14-2007, 01:29 AM
access to weight maps
DaveW
02-14-2007, 02:10 AM
Definately the animation. The renderer is nice, but the market is pretty saturated with renderers, the animation system is what makes messiah stand out.
Labuzz
02-14-2007, 09:00 AM
Animation-> weight maps....
Nichod
02-14-2007, 01:54 PM
I want improvements in all parts of the program. Big or small. Any improvements are welcome.
rago
02-14-2007, 02:17 PM
Both in my opinion,
and I'll explain why I see it this way:
Messiah is not well integrated with any of the apps that it claims to be with, (maybe lightwave, but I don't know about the latest versions), to use it at it's fullest you would need Pointoven.
Now we all know that major software, (Maya, 3dmax, Lightwave, Xsi, C4d), have animation plugins that work way better as far as integration with the main apps, and lot of people just stick with the native animation tools anyway just because of it's convenience, (both economic and learning wise).
At last we have to admitt that Messiah is not very popular:
not as a render plugin, and neither as an animation plugin.
Even though in both terrains it can kick major ass to many of such apps!
Where Messiah can battle, in my opinion, is in giving a great, economic, and full output solution to both major, (the ones above), and minor apps, such as modelers, (Silo, Hexagon, Wings, ecc.).
The first providing an animation/render pipeline that costs less than any render engine!
The latter in completing the pipeline all together.
And as far as the renderer I've been using it very much lately and I'm total stoked with it's quality and speed, all it would need to be top of the line is some bug fixes and a hair solution.
I mean how many renderers have multiple seats for less than 1000$!
The strenght of Messiah is in both animation and render and cutting off the latter would be a mistake, marketing wise it would make it a less than half competitive app!
Not even mentioning that these topics are useless because pmG will decide what believes is best regardless what we all think about it!
Just my opinion,
Roberto.
p.s. sorry for the long post!
and I'll explain why I see it this way:
Messiah is not well integrated with any of the apps that it claims to be with, (maybe lightwave, but I don't know about the latest versions), to use it at it's fullest you would need Pointoven.
Now we all know that major software, (Maya, 3dmax, Lightwave, Xsi, C4d), have animation plugins that work way better as far as integration with the main apps, and lot of people just stick with the native animation tools anyway just because of it's convenience, (both economic and learning wise).
At last we have to admitt that Messiah is not very popular:
not as a render plugin, and neither as an animation plugin.
Even though in both terrains it can kick major ass to many of such apps!
Where Messiah can battle, in my opinion, is in giving a great, economic, and full output solution to both major, (the ones above), and minor apps, such as modelers, (Silo, Hexagon, Wings, ecc.).
The first providing an animation/render pipeline that costs less than any render engine!
The latter in completing the pipeline all together.
And as far as the renderer I've been using it very much lately and I'm total stoked with it's quality and speed, all it would need to be top of the line is some bug fixes and a hair solution.
I mean how many renderers have multiple seats for less than 1000$!
The strenght of Messiah is in both animation and render and cutting off the latter would be a mistake, marketing wise it would make it a less than half competitive app!
Not even mentioning that these topics are useless because pmG will decide what believes is best regardless what we all think about it!
Just my opinion,
Roberto.
p.s. sorry for the long post!
numberEleven
02-14-2007, 06:11 PM
I almost dont care what any new version has. Im just happy that they have released improvements and fixed stuff. Thanks.
I liked the particles, thanks!
Thanks for the big ole timeline button!
I liked the particles, thanks!
Thanks for the big ole timeline button!
stooch
02-14-2007, 07:05 PM
id have to say, i would be stoked if there even was a version 3
animation would definitelly be my interest...
animation would definitelly be my interest...
Wegg
02-14-2007, 07:22 PM
Its so friggen hard not to just burst out and tell you guys everything. But . . . I'm excited. I think this is going to be Messiah's year.
Parsec3d
02-14-2007, 08:12 PM
Taron? is that you? :)
--
now seriously I do believe you, thanks for the news.
--
now seriously I do believe you, thanks for the news.
DaveW
02-14-2007, 08:47 PM
I think this is going to be Messiah's year.
I sure hope so. I just bought another copy of workstation last week so a friend could help me with a short I'm working on. Though USPS seems to have lost the package...
The strenght of Messiah is in both animation and render and cutting off the latter would be a mistake, marketing wise it would make it a less than half competitive app!
Nobody's saying to drop the renderer, just more focus on the animation side of things. I'd love to see the renderer get all the bugs fixed and add hair and kickass volumetrics and particles, but there are some long-standing issues with the animation system that I'd rather see fixed first.
I sure hope so. I just bought another copy of workstation last week so a friend could help me with a short I'm working on. Though USPS seems to have lost the package...
The strenght of Messiah is in both animation and render and cutting off the latter would be a mistake, marketing wise it would make it a less than half competitive app!
Nobody's saying to drop the renderer, just more focus on the animation side of things. I'd love to see the renderer get all the bugs fixed and add hair and kickass volumetrics and particles, but there are some long-standing issues with the animation system that I'd rather see fixed first.
rush123
02-14-2007, 08:55 PM
...kickass volumetrics and particles...
Are already in Messiah :)
R
Are already in Messiah :)
R
Ejecta
02-14-2007, 10:12 PM
Its so friggen hard not to just burst out and tell you guys everything. But . . . I'm excited. I think this is going to be Messiah's year.
We heard that like 4 years ago. :rolleyes:
We heard that like 4 years ago. :rolleyes:
DaveW
02-14-2007, 11:05 PM
Are already in Messiah :)
R
Well that's good to hear :) I was under the impression there was still a lot of work needed in that area to get it on par with Maya and Max's particles/volumetrics.
R
Well that's good to hear :) I was under the impression there was still a lot of work needed in that area to get it on par with Maya and Max's particles/volumetrics.
Wegg
02-15-2007, 03:57 AM
We heard that like 4 years ago. :rolleyes:
Not from me. . .
Not from me. . .
Dann-O
02-15-2007, 09:49 AM
I agree with Rago both the renderer and the animations tools need to be supported. I think also a need to show messiah as a great solution for those great little modelers like Wings and Silo. I woule even make it more integrated to them by doing things like importing native Wings and silo models. Hair will make it competitive with all the high end apps and tweakign little stuff. Manuals that explain a lot more of the features woudl be nice like decent explanation of the particle system and a few others.
borisgoreta2000
02-15-2007, 10:13 AM
I vote for animation. :)
lillmagnus
02-15-2007, 05:04 PM
Eaven though I have both proffessional and workstation, I have never even bothered to do a final render in messiah. It's too time consuming to make it do what I want, and other programs can get the results I want much faster since i don't have to guess so much what things do, so for me more focus on the animationtools in messiah is all I need.
rush123
02-15-2007, 05:15 PM
Well that's good to hear :) I was under the impression there was still a lot of work needed in that area to get it on par with Maya and Max's particles/volumetrics.
I’m not sure where you got that impression from? I know for a fact that a lot of work was put into particles by Taron and pmG and from my view point Messiah particles are more than capable. If you search for particles in this group you see examples.
R
I’m not sure where you got that impression from? I know for a fact that a lot of work was put into particles by Taron and pmG and from my view point Messiah particles are more than capable. If you search for particles in this group you see examples.
R
a_joke
02-15-2007, 06:06 PM
better support for video cards. even tho i personally think the animation side is great and the only reason why i bought, but for some reason the video cards just don't get as much attention as it should. i really don't know what goes into making the program make nice nice with the video card. so maybe i'm just talking out of turn.
DaveW
02-15-2007, 07:40 PM
I’m not sure where you got that impression from? I know for a fact that a lot of work was put into particles by Taron and pmG and from my view point Messiah particles are more than capable. If you search for particles in this group you see examples.
R
I wasn't visiting the forum here for a long stretch so I probably missed the particle threads, all I've seen recently has been some smoke/fire tests that looked pretty fake, and columns of smoke don't really show the power of a particle animation system.
But if you say that particles and volumetrics already kick ass then great, that means pmg can spend more time working on the animation side of things. :thumbsup:
EDIT: I should add that I have done a search for particles and downloaded some clips from the 2.4 release thread and there is some really good looking stuff there.
R
I wasn't visiting the forum here for a long stretch so I probably missed the particle threads, all I've seen recently has been some smoke/fire tests that looked pretty fake, and columns of smoke don't really show the power of a particle animation system.
But if you say that particles and volumetrics already kick ass then great, that means pmg can spend more time working on the animation side of things. :thumbsup:
EDIT: I should add that I have done a search for particles and downloaded some clips from the 2.4 release thread and there is some really good looking stuff there.
AlexK
02-16-2007, 02:26 PM
Eaven though I have both proffessional and workstation, I have never even bothered to do a final render in messiah. It's too time consuming to make it do what I want, and other programs can get the results I want much faster since i don't have to guess so much what things do, so for me more focus on the animationtools in messiah is all I need.
Well, in other programs you don't have to guess what to do, because you have used them for some time. It is called learning a new application. It is always painful to learn something new.
Well, in other programs you don't have to guess what to do, because you have used them for some time. It is called learning a new application. It is always painful to learn something new.
lillmagnus
02-16-2007, 02:42 PM
Well, in other programs you don't have to guess what to do, because you have used them for some time. It is called learning a new application. It is always painful to learn something new.
But those other programs also came with a manual, where each function of the program were explained. Yes, messiah render is too painful to learn, maybe one day when it's complete and functioning (if ever) I will try again, until then I will keep just using the animation part.
But those other programs also came with a manual, where each function of the program were explained. Yes, messiah render is too painful to learn, maybe one day when it's complete and functioning (if ever) I will try again, until then I will keep just using the animation part.
rush123
02-16-2007, 05:19 PM
when it's complete and functioning (if ever)
What parts aren't complete? I ask not to inflame but to be informed.
Also additional information and videos on the render are available from sources such as:
http://www.projectmessiah.com/
http://www.screen-dream.de/AoN_studio.htm
http://messiahcollective.blogspot.com/
R
What parts aren't complete? I ask not to inflame but to be informed.
Also additional information and videos on the render are available from sources such as:
http://www.projectmessiah.com/
http://www.screen-dream.de/AoN_studio.htm
http://messiahcollective.blogspot.com/
R
Ejecta
02-16-2007, 09:56 PM
Not from me. . .
Nope.... I was speaking in general. Sorry if it seemed like I was implying you said it.
Nope.... I was speaking in general. Sorry if it seemed like I was implying you said it.
TylerZambori
02-17-2007, 03:05 PM
What parts aren't complete? I ask not to inflame but to be informed.
Also additional information and videos on the render are available from sources such as:
http://www.projectmessiah.com/
http://www.screen-dream.de/AoN_studio.htm
http://messiahcollective.blogspot.com/
R
Didn't T. Helzle's manuals for his plugins fill in a lot of these blanks? I read
something like that, I think. Is it true?
Also additional information and videos on the render are available from sources such as:
http://www.projectmessiah.com/
http://www.screen-dream.de/AoN_studio.htm
http://messiahcollective.blogspot.com/
R
Didn't T. Helzle's manuals for his plugins fill in a lot of these blanks? I read
something like that, I think. Is it true?
AAAron
02-17-2007, 03:58 PM
Didn't T. Helzle's manuals for his plugins fill in a lot of these blanks? I read
something like that, I think. Is it true?
Yes they does:thumbsup: but as a sideaffect you might feel a major urge to buy his plugins after you read em:love:
something like that, I think. Is it true?
Yes they does:thumbsup: but as a sideaffect you might feel a major urge to buy his plugins after you read em:love:
TylerZambori
02-17-2007, 10:46 PM
Yes they does:thumbsup: but as a sideaffect you might feel a major urge to buy his plugins after you read em:love:
Well, I'm planning to get them anyway :).
Well, I'm planning to get them anyway :).
pequod
02-18-2007, 03:15 PM
I vote for animation if that included making the manipulator and viewport navigation like Maya or Silo or even better A:M.
Hair would be nice though :)
and a Mac version :p
Hair would be nice though :)
and a Mac version :p
DMack
02-19-2007, 12:18 PM
Animation for me.
I assume you have some inside knowledge Wegg? Any idea when the rest of us might hear something?
I assume you have some inside knowledge Wegg? Any idea when the rest of us might hear something?
catizone
02-19-2007, 05:35 PM
"Its so friggen hard not to just burst out and tell you guys everything. But . . . I'm excited. I think this is going to be Messiah's year."
Can't wait to see what's coming! And even more so, for messiah to really open the eyes of the animation community....
Best,
Rick
Can't wait to see what's coming! And even more so, for messiah to really open the eyes of the animation community....
Best,
Rick
Wegg
02-19-2007, 09:29 PM
Animation for me.
I assume you have some inside knowledge Wegg? Any idea when the rest of us might hear something?
Probably when its closer to being done.
I assume you have some inside knowledge Wegg? Any idea when the rest of us might hear something?
Probably when its closer to being done.
My Fault
02-19-2007, 10:02 PM
Animation here as well, though except for a few odd bugs here and there, messiah always feels so much better animating in then pretty much everything. Danged immediate mode has spoiled me for other apps.
And personally I would put rigging next before rendering right now. messiah is very capable, but things to speed up rigging workflow and access to some form of weight painting would be appreciated.
And personally I would put rigging next before rendering right now. messiah is very capable, but things to speed up rigging workflow and access to some form of weight painting would be appreciated.
bardakos
02-19-2007, 10:34 PM
Animation with Weightmap support
Collada I/O
better OGL with Quadro Cards...
at the studio we have tried everything and messiah works great with the ATI X800 old PC's
but not with the FX1500 worstations...too many problems..
We have some issues with the QuadroFX1000 as well...
J.
Collada I/O
better OGL with Quadro Cards...
at the studio we have tried everything and messiah works great with the ATI X800 old PC's
but not with the FX1500 worstations...too many problems..
We have some issues with the QuadroFX1000 as well...
J.
Julez4001
02-20-2007, 02:19 AM
Well with mdd support. Messiah have access to Lightwave and XSI (6 now comes with Pointoven) for a finalrender solution.
Messiah interface and workflow have always been very animator friendly. I am hoping for animation tools get polished in terms of studio level workflow:
- auto riggers <just copy Final Rig for Maya - the guy has a Gnomon DVD)
- morph target interface (armatures EASILY tying to morph targets/blendshape)
- finger controls/easy setup
- Animation layers
- import weightmaps from XSI, Max or Maya (for those looking to sway others)
- 1 button isolated rig/deformation shutoff (allowing one rig to use all the system's IK CPU)
- improved and easier animation mixer ala Compose 2
- Even faster calculated softbodies
More and simple *Effects: Bend, Twist, and mr. wishlist "lattice" so we can have a simple way to do Cartoon eyes.
I am all about making things easier and efficient for the animator. Thats how Messiah started out. The other software can be used for the window dressing: hair, sss, etc.
Messiah interface and workflow have always been very animator friendly. I am hoping for animation tools get polished in terms of studio level workflow:
- auto riggers <just copy Final Rig for Maya - the guy has a Gnomon DVD)
- morph target interface (armatures EASILY tying to morph targets/blendshape)
- finger controls/easy setup
- Animation layers
- import weightmaps from XSI, Max or Maya (for those looking to sway others)
- 1 button isolated rig/deformation shutoff (allowing one rig to use all the system's IK CPU)
- improved and easier animation mixer ala Compose 2
- Even faster calculated softbodies
More and simple *Effects: Bend, Twist, and mr. wishlist "lattice" so we can have a simple way to do Cartoon eyes.
I am all about making things easier and efficient for the animator. Thats how Messiah started out. The other software can be used for the window dressing: hair, sss, etc.
DMack
02-20-2007, 09:08 AM
Probably when its closer to being done.
When is it closer to being done?
:scream:
When is it closer to being done?
:scream:
Wegg
02-21-2007, 12:49 AM
When is it closer to being done?
When the beta versions have all the new features they are wanting to put in. . . things are well documented and everthing is stable.
When the beta versions have all the new features they are wanting to put in. . . things are well documented and everthing is stable.
Grgeon
02-21-2007, 01:10 AM
- auto riggers <just copy Final Rig for Maya - the guy has a Gnomon DVD)
Julez, which dvd is that?
-George
Julez, which dvd is that?
-George
DMack
02-22-2007, 02:14 PM
When the beta versions have all the new features they are wanting to put in. . . things are well documented and everthing is stable.
OK, that sounds promising.
One thing I won't fault PMG for is stable sw. I can't remember the last time animate crashed on me, unlike all other 3D sw I run at present. I hope they keep this standard up with the next release!
All sounds good. I just hope they back it up with some really good advertising/PR so they benefit in relation to the quality of their release.
OK, that sounds promising.
One thing I won't fault PMG for is stable sw. I can't remember the last time animate crashed on me, unlike all other 3D sw I run at present. I hope they keep this standard up with the next release!
All sounds good. I just hope they back it up with some really good advertising/PR so they benefit in relation to the quality of their release.
stooch
02-23-2007, 04:43 PM
if there should be any "copying" it should be from XSI. its IK and overall simplicity of interaction is the best - and since xsi did alot of "copying" of their own there is no need to feel bad about a few borrowed ideas..
numberEleven
02-24-2007, 12:41 AM
"One thing I won't fault PMG for is stable sw."
Yeah, its very stable now. Really looking forward to what is released next.
Yeah, its very stable now. Really looking forward to what is released next.
cgswami
02-25-2007, 09:34 AM
How about Syflex integration for Messiah : I now bought a lic for LW and I am yet to experiment with the process of animating in Character and clothes in Messiah and then carrying it back to LW to sim it. Not much fun there :(
Nichod
02-25-2007, 08:00 PM
How about Syflex integration for Messiah : I now bought a lic for LW and I am yet to experiment with the process of animating in Character and clothes in Messiah and then carrying it back to LW to sim it. Not much fun there :(
Can't you just bake it and bring it into Messiah for rendering, etc.
Can't you just bake it and bring it into Messiah for rendering, etc.
MikeBuckland
02-25-2007, 08:21 PM
I too vote for animation and weight map integration
cgswami
02-25-2007, 11:32 PM
Can't you just bake it and bring it into Messiah for rendering, etc.
I render in LW!!! I also use vue xtream ... so its animate in Messiah - sim in LW Syflex and reder out the outputs :)
It would be nice just to aniamte and sim in Messiah bake it and integrate and render in LW ... less steps and neater workflow. esp for multiple characters scenes.
I render in LW!!! I also use vue xtream ... so its animate in Messiah - sim in LW Syflex and reder out the outputs :)
It would be nice just to aniamte and sim in Messiah bake it and integrate and render in LW ... less steps and neater workflow. esp for multiple characters scenes.
Sil3
02-26-2007, 12:39 AM
How about Syflex integration for Messiah : I now bought a lic for LW and I am yet to experiment with the process of animating in Character and clothes in Messiah and then carrying it back to LW to sim it. Not much fun there :(
You cant really be serious can you?
Are you expecting a 2K plugin to be integrated into a $300 (or $900 in case of Studio) program?
LW wich has a gigantic user base compared to messiah only recently managed to get Syflex as a plugin for it...and being honest i kinda doubt Syflex makers will get their Dev money soon (if ever) on Syflex for LW sales...
As cool as it would be it won't happen, and i'm kinda surprised to see people asking for this, right now it's the same as if someone asked for Syflex for Blender or Truespace.
First messiah needs to get out there and be used in lots and lots of places (known Studios would help also) and grow tremendously it's user base, when theres a user base that supports this kind of Plugins i'm sure they will port them.
Back on Topic:
Animation without a doubt... time to have Lattices, Standart Weight Maps, Set Driven Keys (in an easy way) and last but not least.... an industry standart Manipulator.
You cant really be serious can you?
Are you expecting a 2K plugin to be integrated into a $300 (or $900 in case of Studio) program?
LW wich has a gigantic user base compared to messiah only recently managed to get Syflex as a plugin for it...and being honest i kinda doubt Syflex makers will get their Dev money soon (if ever) on Syflex for LW sales...
As cool as it would be it won't happen, and i'm kinda surprised to see people asking for this, right now it's the same as if someone asked for Syflex for Blender or Truespace.
First messiah needs to get out there and be used in lots and lots of places (known Studios would help also) and grow tremendously it's user base, when theres a user base that supports this kind of Plugins i'm sure they will port them.
Back on Topic:
Animation without a doubt... time to have Lattices, Standart Weight Maps, Set Driven Keys (in an easy way) and last but not least.... an industry standart Manipulator.
Dann-O
02-26-2007, 03:17 AM
I have a few little things I think woudl be nice. Make it so the program can see hard edges and work with that. I still think a few more formats for import from some popular modelers like Silo and Wings. I also agree some sort of lattice deformation tools. Better documantation. For the renderer I think there is some things that can be fixed with glass renders. Make it a bit more straightforward. Better documantation on things like particles particularly. I think basic rigging is covered pretty good but particles and shader trees are not. (talking documentation)
Maybe some pipelines for lower end programs like being able to export animations to Vue, Carrera or Shade might be something to think about. (Poser has it so it can be done)
Maybe some pipelines for lower end programs like being able to export animations to Vue, Carrera or Shade might be something to think about. (Poser has it so it can be done)
cgswami
02-26-2007, 10:28 AM
You cant really be serious can you?
Are you expecting a 2K plugin to be integrated into a $300 (or $900 in case of Studio) program?
LW wich has a gigantic user base compared to messiah only recently managed to get Syflex as a plugin for it...and being honest i kinda doubt Syflex makers will get their Dev money soon (if ever) on Syflex for LW sales...
As cool as it would be it won't happen, and i'm kinda surprised to see people asking for this, right now it's the same as if someone asked for Syflex for Blender or Truespace.
First messiah needs to get out there and be used in lots and lots of places (known Studios would help also) and grow tremendously it's user base, when theres a user base that supports this kind of Plugins i'm sure they will port them.
Yep sil3 I am quite aware of that reality, you are very correct on that point of the user base. But I thought, I would point out my reality (but as said at this time, if ever, it is not very realistic) But I would not place Messiah in the same bracket as Truespace and Blender.I guess the same would apply to all major software that syflex was developed for - you get Syflex as needed whether you teach it or use it for production which either way pays of the cost of it :). So I think the would make their money back with LW users (even the freelancers) We don't dump on the market so we can make back our investment for these plugins :)
Cheers
Are you expecting a 2K plugin to be integrated into a $300 (or $900 in case of Studio) program?
LW wich has a gigantic user base compared to messiah only recently managed to get Syflex as a plugin for it...and being honest i kinda doubt Syflex makers will get their Dev money soon (if ever) on Syflex for LW sales...
As cool as it would be it won't happen, and i'm kinda surprised to see people asking for this, right now it's the same as if someone asked for Syflex for Blender or Truespace.
First messiah needs to get out there and be used in lots and lots of places (known Studios would help also) and grow tremendously it's user base, when theres a user base that supports this kind of Plugins i'm sure they will port them.
Yep sil3 I am quite aware of that reality, you are very correct on that point of the user base. But I thought, I would point out my reality (but as said at this time, if ever, it is not very realistic) But I would not place Messiah in the same bracket as Truespace and Blender.I guess the same would apply to all major software that syflex was developed for - you get Syflex as needed whether you teach it or use it for production which either way pays of the cost of it :). So I think the would make their money back with LW users (even the freelancers) We don't dump on the market so we can make back our investment for these plugins :)
Cheers
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