Poly Modeled Head WIP

[FallenSwordsman]

Whoah - looks like a seriously huge poly count you've got there. Although polys are your friends - too many of them will mean its going to be a real sod when it comes to make fine adjustments - when you want to get rid of a blemish in the face, for example, you end up having to move around a whole load of points rather than just one or two.

I'm a lightwaver myself so I can't really make specific comments on modelling methods. Just try to use fewer polys - for instance, with the rim of the eye - you should be able to get away with 16 points comfortably. I would also place the eyeball first before wrapping the eyelids around it, it will cut down on all those gaps that you're getting. Also, check on other people's meshes and see how many polys they're getting away with using then see if you can do the same.

Despite the high poly count though - this is a nice looking model.

[Stimpy]

Theta-Dot, there is a very nice thread in the modelling forum about modelling heads, like finding the most elegant approach for your edges and stuff... you might want to check into that..

not a tutorial but should give you an idea on how to approach your next one.

and its all a matter of practice anyway.. ;)

[Theta-Dot]

Ok guys thanks for the comments. I just thought it was best to start over. It's amazing how much the first one helped me on this new one. Anyway, this new model was done with good but imperfect front and side reference images, in about 7 hours. It is a cleaner model I think, and was forced to use barely any triangles. I still have to fix some of the shapes to make it look more feminine. That'll be done tomorrow. I'm VERY VERY VERY happy with how it turned out based on the fact that it is my second try and I've never really modeled heads before.
I'm a junior in high school and my art teachers at school think I suck because they never see my CG stuff. :surprised
w/e
On the textured eyes image: that was just something I threw together, I hope to ask her to give me some high res pictures so I can use those texture maps. Rock on! :cool:
(can't you tell I'm in a good mood)

(SEE TOP FOR IMAGES)

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[Toulouse]

1st like the other said, the model you are showing is way too high poly, keep the smooth for only before the final render, 2nd you have to fix your face geometry, you should check out for anatomy or medical book which show you the face muscle, if you want to use it for lypsinc you need to rig it properly, and the geometry has to be built the closer possible of a real human head. You will see a big difference in your final lypsinc, and the blend shape will be much nicer too, worth the time and will look more professional too, keep up the good work tho, you ll get there!

[Theta-Dot]

Thanks Toulouse. I'm hoping the next time I do this that'll I fiinally get that poly count just right.


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[FallenSwordsman]

Hi Theta-Dot

Don't worry bout what art teachers say - mine basically took most of his time ogling the girls and not caring what the rest of us produced in terms of work then ended up telling me off for smiling of all things - art teachers can be a dotty bunch! I think what's most important is that you enjoy what you do.

As you've already found out, the mistakes you make for one head gives you a lot of insight on how to approach the next. Your poly count is still looking a bit high, but all I can say is the same as what Toulouse said - have a look at anatomy and underlying muscle structure, try to model to those. There are also enough wireframes floating aroound this forum to check and see how your mesh compares to theirs.

Looking good


:applause:

[Theta-Dot]

New Image:

(see top)

I have to do the ears still and mess with some shapes more.

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[Theta-Dot]

Does anybody know where I would find tuts on how I would texture this thing? And of course later on I'm going to try and animate it.. which I have NO clue how to do. I'll browse myself, just asking now though.

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[FallenSwordsman]

Skin textures - there is only one tutorial I know of:

http://www.3d-station.com/Tutoriaux/tutoriaux.php?id=13

[Theta-Dot]

Thanks: ) Too bad I can't read French. Hopefully the pictures will be enough.

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[FallenSwordsman]

You don't need to speak French - just chuck the page through a translator:

http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en

[Theta-Dot]

ah. Nifty. THanks

[gnarlycranium]

Dood! The Topology Research sticky thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=435441) in the modeling section is your friend! Go there and have a look, it'll save you a BUNCH of time and hassle! :cool:

Also, don't worry about the textures till way later-- it's much easier to see what you're doing and what you need to fix on an untextured model. As for animating... you'll definitely need to get the mesh more organized before you tackle that, or you'll drive yourself nuts!

[Theta-Dot]

I'm angry. Apparently all I do is wrong. :annoyed:


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[Theta-Dot]

ok.... listen. My goal here was to make a model that looked like the person I had reference pictures of. Did I do it or didn't I?

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[Stimpy]

the textured render works, but only because that always hides a lot of flaws.. its just a bit like low poly characters... have a rough face and stick a texture on it and it looks fine.

your shaded mesh on the other hand shows that there are quite a few errors, its far too bumpy which means that there are things that need fixing.

take a look at the link Gnarly gave you.. its a good read..

[gnarlycranium]

Originally posted by Theta-Dot
ok.... listen. My goal here was to make a model that looked like the person I had reference pictures of. Did I do it or didn't I?

What IS your goal with this model? You have indeed succeeded in making a head-shaped object that can take a photo texture and look recognizably like who it's supposed to be from certain angles. If the level of detail and realism you've got here is close to what your goal was-- and from how happy you've been about it, I'm guessing that's the case-- then yes, you've succeeded, and quite well at that. :cool: It takes a while to get as far as you have, my first heads certainly didn't look that good.

Now.... if you want to take this farther... you've got a ways to go yet. Making a head that really, truly, photorealistically looks like a particular person is one of the most difficult, grueling, agonizing things anybody can tackle in CG. Anybody here would get a little pale and sweaty at the idea of trying to do it-- and a large portion of the people who frequent this forum are highly experienced professionals. The people who've posted to you are not telling you what you need to fix to hassle you-- we're here to help. :)

[FallenSwordsman]

Gnarly is right - if your goal was to make a model that looked like the person you had refs of then you have managed that to a certain extent - its a graded thing - there is a perfect that you aim at and there are levels of how good the model is in between that. And you've achieved a couple of things that people forget en route - the fact that its a learning process and its also meant to be fun!

However, making something that you can render from every conceivable angle that looks exactly like a photograph - brrrrr! Chills my spine just thinking about that - if you look at Gnarly's current work in process you'll see exactly what she means. Its good that you can make a head at all - you need a good knowledge of craniofacial anatomy to even attempt something like that along with good observational skills and the modelling and texturing skills to boot to carry it off. Heck, if you saw my first efforts (don't make me post them now!) you can see how lacking my knowledge was in all these areas! What you have here is a good achievement and I do honestly think that its something that you can be proud of :) Please don't be angry. It hurts me to think that you've gotten angry or upset over this.

[Theta-Dot]

Ok guys... thanks :beer:

I was really happy with what I did and I just wanted to show people and say "hey look what I did!" because I've never really done anything like that before in that period of time (7 hours). I dunno. Maybe I just let the happiness overwhelm me. I know there are still errors with it, but I just wanted to know I was goin in the right direction.

It seems to me I've hit.. some kind of transitory stage.. a big void where all the artists here with some talent but not enough to be amazing go. I browse a lot, and see some really horrible posts (no offense to their respective artists), and it seems to me that they get these really nice and encouraging replies :) I gues just because they're new or something. Then of course you got the godly guys who get tons of replies and front page recognition and all that, that doesn't bother me because they really are amazing. But here in the middle of it all, it's like the people below are going "He's ok but not amazing so I'll just move on" and the people above are going "Haha weak minded artist. Look at him strugle to be up with us" (I know that's not true I'm just having some fun with this idea). Well anyway, here in the middle you just kinda hit this slow unresponsive stage (AND I see this A LOT with other posts: With good work but not many replies). For example, I made a post not too long ago (maybe a month), consisting of a greek/roman building kinda thing... I thought it was really good, but people just didn't respond. Check it out here just to see if you agree with me: The Phantom Post (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39246)
It's the bermuda triangle of all of our journys to becoming good artists I guess. The true leap of faith? I dunno. I'm just being abstract in my thinking. I like to think of CGTalk as a collective being, something that seems to act as one.

Ok ok enough of my ranting. Um. Now you pointed out that there are many errors with the model. I know the bumps are one, but that is minor if you ask me, all I have to do is just move the verts around until it's smooth, that's no big deal and I don't have a problem with that. I could also work on the nose more, which I planned to do... and the only other thing I can think of is the jaw bone. (Of course the ear but that goes without saying). What would you suggest I change??

Basically my plan was to, after finishing the basic model (which I have done), take some other random photos of her at different angles and poses, and just move the model to fit, and I did so with the very top top image, and it aligned pretty well! I thought that meant I had a good model right? I have a bunch of photos of her at different angles, and if I just sit there and line them all up and just tweak them bit by bit, I'll eventually have to end up with an average of all the changes, giving me a good model, right?

ok. Thanks guys. Don't forget to check out that architectural post. I want to hear what you think :scream:

i'm gonna get started right now.. after I have breakfast. I'm gonna fix bumps and such.

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[Stimpy]

the forum is quite a busy place, so posts can drop down to the 2nd page rather fast and well, once they are beyond the third they are mostly gone...

i think most people around here got quite frustrated because they didnt receive the feedback they were hoping for...

thing is, i think in your first post before you edited it, you were asking for help on how to model a head, it was quite high poly etc, so people were showing you a way to fix that, that is mentioned topology thread... so i dont think the feedback was slow or unresponsive, you got exactly what you were looking for...

but somehow still didnt apply it to your model for whatever reason... which kind of makes people wonder why they then replied in the first place.. instead you seemed to have gotten defensive.

anyway, wrote too much already.. if you are happy with your head, then thats of course good.
but if you want plan on progressing and learning as well, then you should maybe consider the advice given too you....

oh my. wrote too much. sounds too harsh. hope no offense taken

[Theta-Dot]

No offense taken Stimpy...
I took a look at those free models that I saw about on the front page here... those were really clean models. w/e I'm still working on it I'll post again later when I have a better model I guess...

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[Theta-Dot]

Ok... I'm just starting over. I'm taking my camera into school and getting better pictures of her, and I'll have her run through the important mouth movements for speech for when I animate.
The next model will be lower poly! HOOAH

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[FallenSwordsman]

As we say - all this 3D stuff is a learning process. I never got to the animation stage so best of luck with that. Best of luck with the animating and the next model! :thumbsup:

[gnarlycranium]

Originally posted by Theta-Dot
HOOAH

That's totally the spirit, dood! :buttrock:

And I'd um... give you the addy to my page about using reference pictures, but I need to fix it and the darn FTP account ain't listening to me! bah!! *kicks it spitefully* Tomorrow I'll get it fixed.

[Theta-Dot]

I'm taking pictures tomorrow. yay. I'm anxious to get started!

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[gnarlycranium]

You might find this page I wrote (http://www.logrhythms.com/Leah/badheads01.html) handy, though there isn't much to it yet.

Good luck!

*edit* oh, and take the pictures with a telephoto-ish lens zoomed way in from farther back, if you can, to cut down on distortion! No closeup lens, the foreshortening will be terrible!

[Stimpy]

exellent job on your page Miss Gnarly...

[Theta-Dot]

Ok I got my new pictures. I know they need to be scaled down a bit, but here are the ones I'm thinking of using. Should I use the plain front view or the one that I mirrored??? That's the big question I guess... and also how well the side pic matches the front pic - how well will they fit together?

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/aught_1/Mudd/FrontConsider1.JPG


http://www.angelfire.com/retro/aught_1/Mudd/SideConsider1.JPG

Thanks!

=ThetaDot=

[FallenSwordsman]

Personally I would import the front and side view into photoshop and just make one big image with both of them side by side. Then create another layer and draw straight horizontal lines on key landmarks in the face i.e. tip of the nose, underside of the nose, mouth line, eye line, top of head, bottom of head and see if they all line up. That way, you can see before you even start if you have an ideal set of pictures. And because you already have the pictures side by side in one big image, you won't have so much hastle lining them up in the background of whatever 3D program you're using.

Give it a try and see how you get on.

[gnarlycranium]

Okay, her head is tipped just a little up in that... but it looks like you've already checked on the profile view to get it rotated right-- as long as they match, you're good to go!! :cool:

Don't worry about mirroring the image-- when you make the model, you'll likely have a mirrored copy of it anyway, and you'll only be editing one half. I would use the left side of her face as the reference, since it's a little better lit and also is the side turned just a bit towards us-- but it doesn't make that much of a difference.

These pics will make a great base for making your model, ThetaDot-- and once you've got the general form of it up, we can get into using perspective views to refine it. :D

[Stimpy]

for the question of "how well will they fit together" you have the prepare them in photoshop anyway, before using them as a backdrop... i mostly spend about 30 mins or so, adjusting reference picture, making sure with the guidelines that the features match up, etc, scale them so that they fit, etc.

good luck to you, those references pictures sure look better. :)

[gnarlycranium]

I don't bother doing anything to my reference images in photoshop except maybe cropping them. All the rotation/scaling/matching up stuff is easier for me to do IN the program.

Oh yeah and thanks about the webpage, Stimpy! :D

[Stimpy]

well i prefer to do it beforehand, cause i had it on a couple of occasions (mostly with technical stuff though) that after spending a day modelling the front, you go to the back and suddenly realize it just doesnt line up, which can be very frustrating.

i then had to keyframe my reference pics with positioning and scaling, so depending on what part i would work on it they would line up. not the best way i guess to do it. and quite frustrating.

[Theta-Dot]

Ok prepare to see an update within a few days. I've redone the whole thing

=ThetaDot=

[_vine_]

I like the original head you have at the beginning of this thread. It's definitely an awesome start compared to a lot of people.

The reference photos you have for your next head should give you good results. I did a quick lineup in photoshop and they worked perfectly.

My only suggestion is to check out Bay Raitt's site. In the Character Modeling section is a description of edge looping (http://cube.phlatt.net/home/spiraloid/tutorial/modeling.html).

You have all the basic masses present in your head model, but using an edge looping workflow in your modeling would help simplify the amount of edges in your model while maintaining the surface shape you are looking for.

For example in the eye section you have a lot of edges running away from your eyes, but not many radiating out.

Edges looking more like this will produce better results in the eye area:

http://www.cam-3d.com/edgeloopsCGEyes.jpg

I hope this helps you out on your next endeavor. Modeling is fun because it is a learning process and we get better with each try. I can't wait to see your next model.

p.s. Your architectural dome is great. Very nice detail.
:beer:

[Theta-Dot]

Yay I REDID it! New image at very top. Wireframes coming soon.

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[Theta-Dot]

um... hold on... angelfire decided to do some maintenence... Images should be back up soon.. (I hope)...


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[Theta-Dot]

OK it's back up... took long enough. Now start commenting! :)

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[Stimpy]

you should just posts your pics as you keep going, not just edit your first post. makes it a lot easier to keep track of it.

can we see a wire plz ?? :D

[Theta-Dot]

the wire is up now

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[gnarlycranium]

Aha! Now we're rockin!

End and bridge of the nose are great. Mesh for the most part definitely has the right idea. It's still just a BIT denser than it has to be.... but then, I'm picky that way, I tend to use less than most people around here.

You could use some more definition around the brow area... right now it's like somebody just rubbed her brow ridge right off, she's got no eyesockets. Since she's got something of a vaguely Asian facial structure, they won't ever be very pronounced, but right now it's a bit too shallow around the eyes. When you add some more detail to the eyelids that will probably help... but don't rush ahead with that, eyes are a real pain to get just right.

Area that needs the most work: the mouth. I can't quite tell what you've done with the mesh around the corner of the mouth, but it definitely looks funky. You need to have at least one or two loops that run all the way around the mouth area, which then open up at the top to run up and form the smile-lines that lead to the sides of the nose.

The chin and jaw could probably use some shape adjusting-- that region tends to be very frustrating to do. The mesh there looks solid, though.

You've come another zillion miles, Theta-Dot-- keep it rolling! :thumbsup:

[Theta-Dot]

thank you thank you. Yes I'll work on the mouth and eyes more today. I knew they still needed work. Then I'll put the ears on.

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[FallenSwordsman]

This is looking a whole heap better than your previous attempt. Congratulations on this! You've made great progress and you must be feeling pretty darned pleased with yourself for it.

Can't really add much more that hasn't already been said by Gnarly. Just keep working at it. On a positive note, it does actually look like who its supposed to look like :)

[Theta-Dot]

thanks fallenswordsman. You and Gnarly have been loyal to me!

Here are just a snapshot of the screen. I messed with the eyebrow ridges a bit, but I don't know if it's enough. I also messed with the mouth a tiny bit but I don't know if you can even tell. I'll work on it some more tonight.

I'm turning 17 tomorrow yayyy!!!!

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/aught_1/Mudd/maxDebView.jpg

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[_vine_]

Great improvement over your first try. Can't wait to see it finished

:beer:

[Theta-Dot]

thanks I'm going to work on it as much as I can tomorrow.

I'M 17 I'm going to go see an R rated movie now teehee :oP
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

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[Theta-Dot]

Should I model the ear seperately and attach it later, or model the ear by extruding existing geometry from the head??

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[gnarlycranium]

Definitely model the ear separately. Attaching it is one of the last things you'll do. Ears are a real pain, you don't want to have to deal with the rest of the head while you're working on it.

[Theta-Dot]

Will do. Gnarly.

...When I get time :thumbsdow

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[FallenSwordsman]

Hi Theta:

First off Happy Birthday - I hope it went well!

Ears really are a pain. I spent most of yesterday trying to construct an ear with somewhat limited success - if it gets too difficult, you can always try and get an ear model from someone else.

Definitely attach the ear afterwards!

[Theta-Dot]

FINALLY did ears. Funny thing was that it only took me a half an hour... I wish I had done it a long time ago. Here is how it looks right now:

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/aught_1/Mudd/DebbieEars.jpg

So wassap? How is it?

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[gnarlycranium]

Ears ain't such a biggie, I don't mind em myself, but a lot of people really wig out over them for some reason.

Looks like you made them a bit too flat-- they ought to stick out from her head a little more, and be more round. You've got them pretty darn close, just a little more sculpting and you'll have it.

The other big thing I'm seeing now-- is the eyes are too close together. The shape of the head itself looks good, but there ought to be the same amount of distance between the eyes, as between the outer corner of each eye and the sides of the head. Shouldn't be too tough to fix.

After that... looks like there's still some issues going on with her mouth and jaw. Can ya give us a closeup of the mesh there, and maybe grab a good perspective pic of her to use?

Oh and I should mention-- though there's some weird fins going on with her neck, it looks great in the profile view, and the general shape of her skull seems quite lovely. A lot of people never quite get that right, so you're really crankin.

[Theta-Dot]

I don't have time right this second to change the ears or eyes... but I did get a few wires of the chin and that quarter view.
Here de are:

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/aught_1/Mudd/QuarterTurn.JPG

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/aught_1/Mudd/ChinWires.jpg

Thanks Gnarly!

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[Theta-Dot]

Here is another image... I put greeble on so you could see the flow of the mesh at one smooth iteration. I uh... ok : )

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/aught_1/Mudd/DebbieGreebleFlow.jpg

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[Theta-Dot]

Ok... well I did widen the eyes a bit ( I didn't take them out too far, because then it wouldn't fit my reference pic at all!) and I tweaked the ears a bit... uh.. Am I nearly done should I start moving onto texturing / fine details? I = confused!

=ThetaDot=

[gnarlycranium]

Ahah! Some issues with the mesh, and the eyes.

The eyeballs aren't centered in the eyes. Try to get them as close to centered as you can, instead of scooted towards the inner corner like they are. It's tough to get everything lined up right, takes a lot of fine-tuning, but if it's not fixed she'll look all crosseyed.

As for the mesh-- especially if you're ever planning on animating, you need to redirect the flow of the topology around the mouth. Notice there aren't any rows of edges that follow the smile-line that should lead down from the side of the nose to the corner of the mouth. Look in the Topology sticky thread some more for ideas of how that should work-- you need full loops going all the way around the mouth instead of running them into each other at the sides like you have, and then have some rows of edges leading from the nose down past the corner of the mouth to meet under the chin.

It will take some tweaking, this kind of mesh-editing is a nasty brain puzzle, but with a bit of practice you'll probably get the hang of it! :D

[Theta-Dot]

I uh I uh I uh.. Ok. I'll do that!

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[Theta-Dot]

Here is a small rotation video...

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/aught_1/Mudd/Deb360.avi

um.. yea

=ThetaDot=

[Theta-Dot]

I would really like to get some comments from people other than Gnarly Cranium and Fallen Swordsman...

I mean... I put hours and hours into this thing and you could at least say it looks decent :)

Or not... That's just how I see it though.


Gnarly: I really don't have a clue how to change the mesh like you said... O_o It's supa hard. I'll have to try harder I guess..

=ThetaDot=

[foodi]

eyes are too close together, IMO

[Theta-Dot]

yes yes yes. ok I'll move them out. You're right they are. I'm just stubborn :)

=ThetaDot=

[FallenSwordsman]

Heh heh - sorry about the lack of comments from me recently, been working on my own little things in the background, but still looking in! What you've got here looks great! You have come a long way from where you started from and yes, it does take hours, but once you've spent the hours doing one head, then you learn stuff and it takes a heck of a lot less time to do other heads. Hopefully you now understand what we meant before about having too dense a mesh (something I do myself) - it becomes a real swine to change later on if you need to. And yes, head modelling is super hard - why else do you see so many people trying to make heads in the WIP section who need comments? Its one of the most common things that people model and at the same time one of the easiest to get wrong. But you've stuck to it despite all the frustration and the hours of going "ARRRGH" at your mesh so kudos to you. I can't really offer any more suggestions to how its going that hasn't been commented on already, I'm just hear in a supportive way that goes slightly beyond the usual "Going great" comment.

[gnarlycranium]

Originally posted by Theta-Dot
I would really like to get some comments from people other than Gnarly Cranium and Fallen Swordsman...

Awww, but why? We're the experts, you don't need anyone else! ;) Ain't that right, FallenSwordsman? Eh? *nudgenudge* Ain't it? :D


As for changing the mesh.... yeah, redirecting flow is a PAIN, it'll twist your brain alllll up in knots. :argh: I'm STILL going crazy with it-- I've pretty much got the eyes and nose down now, but the jaw and the area next to the eyebrows still gets me. Gimme a bit, I'll try to scribble on a screenshot to give you an idea of how it works.

[Theta-Dot]

Copy that, Gnarly. Thanks.
And thanks FallenSwordsman! You've re appeared!

=ThetaDot=

[Theta-Dot]

Howbout that pic gnarly?? :shrug:

=ThetaDot=

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