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JHarford
02-26-2003, 12:41 AM
Hey guys, im a max user and i recnetly invested in lightwave , i decided to move over from max to lightwave due to a friends advice, i hope that i can creat some decent models to show you guys and get some c&c back.

What are advantages and disadvatages over lightwave to max? and ive heard there isnt an edge select mode, does tat provs to be a problem>?
Thanks
joe

SplineGod
02-26-2003, 12:43 AM
Never found the edge thing to be a problem. THere are other ways to deal with edges in Lightwave.
Knife and Bandsaw come with LW.
Free plugins include:
Edge Bevel
Edge Tools
Jigsaw
and a cast of thousands. :)
There are many others too

Ibanezhead
02-26-2003, 04:18 AM
LW has no constuction history.
No modifiers, only tools
No Element Subobject Mode
Many of the subobject functions that you have in Max are not available in LW, like Detach, Attach, Break, etc. You instead have layers and Copy/Paste commands...
Smoothing groups are controlled in the Surface Editor and are assigned per surface. There is no Poly Smoothing Group control as with Max. You will have to assign a new material instead...
No icons
LW's splines are much simpler
LW is a split app, Modeling and Animation/Rendering
You must export to Layout to render model
Less UI customization than Max.
LWs animation tools are not as advanced as Max's
No transform gizmo in Modeler
Material editing is very different in LW (easier to grasp I think)
One Undo in Layout
on and on...

Vic

SplineGod
02-26-2003, 04:23 AM
Which only proves that it doesnt mean squat. Lightwave has a simple workflow, no cluttered interface, easier to learn, faster to get things done with, doesnt need character studio, doesnt need external renders and costs much less. :)

faulknermano
02-26-2003, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by Ibanezhead
LW has no constuction history.
No modifiers, only tools
No Element Subobject Mode
Many of the subobject functions that you have in Max are not available in LW, like Detach, Attach, Break, etc. You instead have layers and Copy/Paste commands...
Smoothing groups are controlled in the Surface Editor and are assigned per surface. There is no Poly Smoothing Group control as with Max. You will have to assign a new material instead...
No icons
LW's splines are much simpler

i think these are the advantages.


LW is a split app, Modeling and Animation/Rendering
You must export to Layout to render model
Less UI customization than Max.
LWs animation tools are not as advanced as Max's
No transform gizmo in Modeler
Material editing is very different in LW (easier to grasp I think)
One Undo in Layout
on and on...



while these are (questionably) the disadvantages. :D

Ibanezhead
02-26-2003, 06:40 AM
Which only proves that it doesnt mean squat.

Those are the differences that a Max user will notice when going over to LW. I didn't say whether most of those were good or bad. Is it wrong to say LW has no Icons, or has a different way of applying smoothing groups? Arn't these the differences? If you like using Element Subobjects then you will be disappointed to not find them in LW. If you hate that type of worflow, then you will be happy. Pretty simple.

Vic

JHarford
02-26-2003, 09:40 AM
Thanks guys, im beginning figuring it out today,
Sline guy i heard about your course thing? How much is it, have you got some more details? thanks,
Also have you guys chosen lightwave after using another product or always been with lightwave?
Joe

SplineGod
02-26-2003, 10:22 AM
Ive used a lot of 3D apps starting years ago. Lightwave has always been great for just getting things done fast. Max has just always felt bloated and klunkey. Maya seems a better value to me. The Intro Course I have is $395 for over 30 hrs of quicktime lectures and 3 months online support. I also have a pretty in depth Character course as well.
http://www.splinegod.com/introtolightwave.html

Ibanezhead
02-26-2003, 10:40 AM
I started in Max, and use it everyday at work. A few years ago I decided to buy a program for home and thought the grass would be greener on the Lightwave side of things, and I bought it without much review. After a a few years of using it I decided it just wasn't for me. So I ended up buying Maya, and am really happy. I still love Max too, most of the time :)...

I have high hopes for LW8 and am looking forward to seeing the progress Newtek has made when it is released. LW is great for modelers, and I'm sure you will enjoy using it :).

Vic

Ed Lee
02-26-2003, 10:54 AM
Where can I download edge tools, edge bevel and such?.......Yeah, LW modeling toolset is pretty extensive.

Ed--

faulknermano
02-26-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by JHarford

Also have you guys chosen lightwave after using another product or always been with lightwave?
Joe

i've used max and currently use maya. however, i've only had a very shallow exposure to max so i cant give more interesting comparison. however, i've tried max before i tried lw and i find max a little too complicated. i never liked the UI. maya is much better though i admit it's easy for newbies in 3d (which i dont assume you to be) to get into.. but mileage may vary.

JHarford
02-26-2003, 11:10 AM
Once agiain thanks.
I hope lightwave will work out to be a good app for me, as im mainly creating models of cars ad architecture,
i do all my character stuff in maya and have no reason to switch that.

when is lightwave 8 out?

yog
02-26-2003, 11:27 AM
Basically Polygon and Sub-Division modelling is sooo much easier in Lightwave.

Sometimes it is the small things that make the difference :

All viewports are active ALL the time, no right clicking to make them active a.l.a. MAX.This remains one of my main pet hates when using MAX.

Unless you get involved in pivot points MAX's transform tools (move, rotate, scale) work by default on centre of selection, and it's a chore to get them to work on anything else. LW on the other hand works by default on centre of mouse position (but can use centre of selection, pivot point, or origin on a single button press). This is so much quicker to work with.

When using the transform tools MAX tends to get a little unpredictable (for me) unless you click just right on the transform gizmo. LW on the other hand will use the transform tools in free move mode if you click anywhere off the gizmo, but if you click on the gizmo it uses the gizmo's constraints when transforming. I find this much easier for "sketching" and "sculpting" in LW.

Although both programs have many great features bigger than the three I listed above, I think the above 3 are more workflow issues, and being mainly a modeller I would rather have a better workflow than big flashy features like particle systems (which admittadly can be fun to play with :cool: )

One thing that was a real surprise to me when I started using MAX was the almost total lack of 3rd party support material, although both user bases are great at sharing info.
Your first stop when learning LW (after the manuals of course), should be Web tutorials (http://members.shaw.ca/lightwavetutorials/Main_Menu.htm) , Scott's one of the unsung hero's of the LW community, you'll find several hundred web based tutorials here.
For video tutorials (commercial) try Here (http://www.sharbor.com/catalog/300.html) and Here (http://desktopimages.com/catlw.shtml)
Also Larry Shultz's course are well worth looking into if you want a quick start with LW including pleanty of support.

When you are ready and are familiar with all of LW's basic tools you can head on over to Flay (http://www.flay.com/start.cfm) and look in their plugin database. There you will find several hundred plugins, most of them free. And best of all very few of them need to be recompiled for newer versions of LW so even the really old ones should work.

Have fun :bounce:

Gelfling
02-26-2003, 11:41 AM
"I started using MAX was the almost total lack of 3rd party support material"

tell me this is not the biggest joke I have read?

lol....

.........

at least be honest.. I think Max might have the MOST 3rd party support and LW not far behind

BTW the biggest hangup and IMO big plus for LW is how they handle geometry. You have to do a lot of hiding, turning this or that off in viewport to get it to not crawl to snail speed. Lightwave on the other hand can handle a huge amount of Geometry. Big difference

JHarford
02-26-2003, 12:33 PM
thanks very muhc:)
i foudn that max had MANY tutorials on the net, but not many at least 90% of them were not very helpfull, the lightwave ones so far have been excellent.
Ive made my first model of a cartoon toilet lol :wavey: dont ask!!
Anyway here it is, im looking into the texturing and rendering processes now .

Only bevel extrude knife transforms used cuase that all i know :buttrock: hehe#

Joe

Gelfling
02-26-2003, 01:09 PM
very cute, good job ;)

yog
02-26-2003, 01:35 PM
Hi Gelfing.
No joke. That quote was refering to 3rd party training material, and if you expand the quote to include the bit about both user bases being great at sharing info, the quote then implies I'm talking about commercial training material. Admitadly that might have been open to other interpretation, but it was my intent.

When I started re-using MAX about 18 months ago I wanted to get up to speed as quickly as possible, which for me means videos. After a search of the internet I came up with only one box set that covered the basics of MAX-4 and about 6 others that covered specific elements of earlier versions of MAX. If you follow the LW links I posted you will see over 3 dozen LW training videos.
Heck, even Maya (a much younger program) has more training videos than MAX.

Gelfling
02-26-2003, 01:45 PM
Can't really argue there but to be honest I think the reason you see that is : because 3dsMax has so much free material. I mean.. if you look I doubt there is anything not covered.

Lightwave also has a huge amount so :shrug:

Everyone learn's their own way.

JHarford
02-26-2003, 01:59 PM
Thanks, lol its ok. W.i.p anyway,
About the lack of training vids for max, 3dbuzz has enough for anyone to get up and running pretty easily, then there are some great tuts over at 3dtotal.com, elsewhere i have found the odd good one. But since looking for lightwave ones ()last night) ive been told of and found brilliant viedoes(many) and tutorials. The newtek website is excellent and so are many support sites.



Is cgtalk mainly lightwave users? seeing as the lightwave forum has the higest post count?

Moddeling tools, ive found so far to be pretty good.
One thing im looking for is the creat poly or create point tool? anyone
thanks


joe

yog
02-26-2003, 02:24 PM
Gelfling - Yep, I suspect there are as many ways to learn a 3D prog as there are ways to model a figure. I was just surprised that's all :bounce:
All progs have their stregnths and weeknesses. Currently I model and texture all my architectural work in LW and render in MAX with Final-Render. TBH it's hard to beat the 3rd party renderers like FR and Vray, especially for speed and the quality of it's GI.

Joe - No, us Waver's just like to talk alot :thumbsup:
BTW - Nice start on the WC. Don't forget to keep us informed of your progress.

JHarford
02-26-2003, 03:01 PM
Ive done some more on the model. think i may move on to somehting,
The render system seems very hard to get to grips with.
How come you render in max with FR.
I get good results throuhg brazil and maz but i havent tried FR
whats the native ligthwave render like?

Joe

wgreenlee1
02-26-2003, 03:11 PM
It's like this..... (http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/gallery/spgm.php?g=LightWave3D)

JHarford
02-26-2003, 03:36 PM
Yeh i see it can produce some good results,
but if you use it too its fulest, can it compete with FR and brazil and renderman? or is a 3rd party plugin a better option?
Joe

yog
02-26-2003, 03:37 PM
The native Lightwave render is very good, especially for raytracing and outdoor GI rendering, but for indoor GI (radiosity) architectural renders I find it too slow and prone to speckles and splotches unless you crank up the settings near to maximum, which increaes the rendertimes even more. The baking of radiosity solutions is even more painfully slow.
If I had to guess I would say that LW's global illumination engine is more accurate, but other renderers seem to sacrifice a small (insignificant) amount of accuracy in order to gain speed and cleanness.

Native Lightwave renderer verse native MAX renderer (bearing in mind that texturing accounts for at least 80% of the final render quality), there are fewer controls for the LW renderer, and the ones that are there are simpler to understand (given time), to me this means that I can better predict what result I'm going to get. Also the LW renderer tends to give renders that are a touch "cleaner" and crisper. Natively raytracing is much faster in Lightwave. So if a scene only requires shadow mapped spots or raytracing I do it all within Lightwave, if on the other hand I want indoor global illumination I switch to MAX + Final Render.

Limbus
02-26-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by JHarford

Moddeling tools, ive found so far to be pretty good.
One thing im looking for is the creat poly or create point tool? anyone
thanks

Use the Pen Tool to create points. If you want more than one point, use the right mosue button after the first one.

To get a poly just select some points (clockwise and counterclockwise selection will alter the direction of the poly) and hit p. f will flip the poly. k kills a poly, e.g. just re,oves the poly and not the points.

Limbus

JHarford
02-26-2003, 04:29 PM
yog - thanks very muhc ill give it a try once of got to grips with

teh moddeling side of it, Ive seen some great timeplase head modeeling videos , and like to give that a shot soon .
In lightwave do the same rules apply from max - 4 sided polys best - 3 wose 5 worse etC?

------------------
when you press tab that turns it to patches? #

When i export or bring to layour i have a faceted version ( not smooth) how come?:hmm:

Limbus - Thanks for the tip it worked:)
------------------

The way you move points in lightwave -
do you
1. select the point the shift to slect more or ctrl to deselct
2.presss t then move them
3 press t
4 press backslash to unselect points
5 selct new points - back to stage 1


Thanks very much in advance
Joe

yog
02-26-2003, 04:51 PM
The easiest way to create points is with the "Create Point" tool, the "+" by default. You can create as many points as you like before deselecting the tool.
To create polygons is to sellect a group of points in order then press "p". As oppoesed to other methods like extend, bandsaw, bevel, etc.

Yep, 4 sided polys is best for Sub-D's, 3 sided is sometimes unavoidable, 5 sided not supported.

The TAB key switches on and off Sub-D's, you can do it whnever and as often as you like.
If it is sub_D in Modeler, but comes accross to Layout faceted, you probably need to turn smoothing on in the Surfaces panel. Also in the "Object's Properties" pannel you can set the Sub-Division level as high or as low as you like, you can even set a different level for display than for rendering.

JHarford
02-26-2003, 05:40 PM
Thanks yog thats excellent advice:)
Very helpfull.
Joe


Will kee you posted on how i get on

JohnD
02-26-2003, 07:49 PM
I've used both Max and Lightwave and although Max does have some nice features, Lightwave is centered around the "artist.," especially the modeler. I have to design and create many characters in my line of work, and Lightwave's Modeler makes it so simple. I could still do the same in Max, but it is a much more daunting task. And yes, Max has Character Studio for animating, which I find quite interesting, but I've never come across any situation where I couldn't animate in Lightwave's Layout...from bikers doing tricks in freestyle motocross, to dropkicks and roundhouses. I can only imagine what LW 8 is going to have:applause:

JHarford
02-26-2003, 09:16 PM
Thanks !, im sure i will have the same experience with lightwave.
What do you do at work?
how did you start out in lightwave
thanks
joew

AnimaLMotheR
02-26-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Ed Lee
Where can I download edge tools, edge bevel and such?.......Yeah, LW modeling toolset is pretty extensive.

Ed--

www.flay.com and do a small search for both of them (u can find all the plugins u need at flay).

OR click these direct links:

Edge Bevel (http://www.daz3d.com/pages/dp/development/developright.html)
Edge Tools (http://www.dstorm.co.jp/dslib/plg70e.html)

Ayreon
02-26-2003, 09:57 PM
for editing points you can use the drag tool, ctrl+t. just drag the points around, no need to select them, the point you want to move, just click and drag. When you make a selection of points and then activate the drag tool it will only affect the selected point. It's a really quick way for editing point, I use it all the time. Good luck!


Ayreon

JHarford
02-26-2003, 10:38 PM
Thanks ayreon , very helfull.
Im learning more and more:)

Im going to start a model of a car. What are the essential tools i should be using for this,. and some of the techniques.
I hope a hard project like this will teach me the tools by overcoming problems i have and asking questions.
Have any of you got msn and would be willing to have a chat sometime about LW and things?

Thanks
Joe

timsvw
02-26-2003, 10:53 PM
Check out this tutorial it should get you started with your car.

http://www.lwg3d.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4936

-tim

JHarford
02-27-2003, 12:49 AM
Thanks thats a pretty good tutorials, , i didnt like spline in macx, bt ligthwaves seem to be a lot better,
one question
when i make a bezier spline then clikc to set next point etc. how do i make it so i can delete one of those points (or control vertices)
or delete the last one, undo deltes the whole lot .
Thanks
Joe


Also is splines the way most professional moddeles make the cars in lightwave>
Thanks
Joe

SplineGod
02-27-2003, 01:13 AM
I have a free spline tutorial on my site.

JohnD
02-27-2003, 03:25 PM
What do you do at work?

We do alot of broadcast commercials and home videos/dvd's along with a motocross television show. I pretty much do the graphics and animations for them. Sometimes a character needs to be created and animated.

I found out about lightwave back in the early 90's when I picked up a Video Toater promotional video and there was a section in it about Lightwave. After I got out of college in 97' I purchased LW and the rest is history.

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