Autodesk, Adobe VISTA perspectives

[BurningFencePost]

My 64 beta version stopped working yesterday so i have gone back to 32 and there i will stay, for now.

[inguatu]

yawn. this is no different from the switch from NT to 2K. or from 2K to XP. or from OS 9 to OSX

It takes time for any OS to get saturated into the market and it's very smart for developers to take time in letting that happen before they plunge into it themselves and waste development dollars.

[harlan_hill]

yawn. this is no different from the switch from NT to 2K. or from 2K to XP. or from OS 9 to OSX

It's actually quite a bit different, as Microsoft is forcing manufacturers to develop for M$'s own technology rather than industry standards (ie: OpenGL). That has NEVER happened before, especially in any of the examples you mentioned above.

I also can't remember a time when an OS upgrade has 'forced' such a drastic change in hardware in order to achieve even basic functionality.

We will not be buying into any of the Vista bullsh!t over here, and have commited to Linux/OSX exclusively.

[mech7]

It is the same XP doesn't have Open GL support either the videocards have, also as windows is pretty much preinstalled on every system build developers are pretty much forced to support it.

It's actually quite a bit different, as Microsoft is forcing manufacturers to develop for M$'s own technology rather than industry standards (ie: OpenGL). That has NEVER happened before, especially in any of the examples you mentioned above.

I also can't remember a time when an OS upgrade has 'forced' such a drastic change in hardware in order to achieve even basic functionality.

We will not be buying into any of the Vista bullsh!t over here, and have commited to Linux/OSX exclusively.

[HamsaPaksham]

I'm running OS X in my PC. Its much faster than Windows.
I dont plan to use Vista, instead I'm switching to OS X.

I think this is a desperate move by Microsoft, wich always try to force you to use their products. It s like a dictature of the information era.

Of seven new computers sold in Amazon, six are Apple.

Its a shame Apple doesnt have a store here in Brazil :( We have to import it and its costly.

[Gelero]

I'm running OS X in my PC. Its much faster than Windows.

Its a shame Apple doesnt have a store here in Brazil :( We have to import it and its costly.

And how are you running OS X in your PC based machine?


And yeah.. its a shame Apple doesnt have a distribution network around here.
Anyone knows why is that?
Is it too expensive for then?

[opus13]

And how are you running OS X in your PC based machine?


And yeah.. its a shame Apple doesnt have a distribution network around here.
Anyone knows why is that?
Is it too expensive for then?

besides the fact that an Apple IS a pc?

[kiaran]

It's actually quite a bit different, as Microsoft is forcing manufacturers to develop for Ms own technology rather than industry standards (ie: OpenGL). That has NEVER happened before, especially in any of the examples you mentioned above.

DirectX has always been a closed Microsoft-only API. They invested a significant amount of money in its development, it's only fair that they reap the rewards.

Vista looks pretty sweet in my opinion. I've got a new system in the mail that will be setup with Vista/Linux dual-boot. But of course, if you want nothing to do with the amazing line-up of DX10 games, then by all means, get a Mac or stick with XP.

[inguatu]

I'm running OS X in my PC. Its much faster than Windows.
I dont plan to use Vista, instead I'm switching to OS X.

I think this is a desperate move by Microsoft, wich always try to force you to use their products. It s like a dictature of the information era.

Of seven new computers sold in Amazon, six are Apple.

Its a shame Apple doesnt have a store here in Brazil :( We have to import it and its costly.

I don't know anyone who buys a computer on Amazon, so Apple may have made a deal with them or something.

It's funny you say OSX is faster... I've read reports even on Mac sites where Windows running on an Apple is faster than OSX running on the same system. This includes apps such as Maya and After Effects. After all it's just an Intel box.

[zzacmann]

When he says PC, what hes saying is a non-apple made computer. And if thats what Hamsapaksham is saying then I too want to know what the hell he is doing.

Yes, technically Macs are Personal Computers too, but even Apple's own Mac ads refer to themselves as Macs and others (Windows based) as PCs.

[inguatu]

DirectX has always been a closed Microsoft-only API. They invested a significant amount of money in its development, it's only fair that they reap the rewards.

Vista looks pretty sweet in my opinion. I've got a new system in the mail that will be setup with Vista/Linux dual-boot. But of course, if you want nothing to do with the amazing line-up of DX10 games, then by all means, get a Mac or stick with XP.

I agree. I look forward to seeing the result of DX10 development for games. You pick your own poison when it comes to hardware and software, so ultimately it's your own fault.

[Fredl]

Vista has taken 5 years to develop (don't ask me why).

Microsoft did something that would damage OpenGL considerably.

Microsoft announced that the driver software (that controls your ATI or NVIDIA cards) would no longer be able to access OpenGL directly.

Instead, Microsoft said, Vista would be a DirectX-only operating system. Those wishing to access OpenGL would have to do it via DirectX, which would slow down the performance of OpenGL considerably in Vista.

So developers were left thinking that the only way to do 3D graphics on Vista was via DirectX instead of OpenGL. It was a clever way to persuade developers to abandon OpenGL.

Then, relatively late in the 5 year Vista development cycle, Microsoft announced that Vista would after all include direct access to OpenGL. However, the damage was done.

I cannot explain why Microsoft left OpenGL dangling on a thread for so long. No wonder the driver software is late for Vista.

With DirectX 10, there is now a vendor lock-in situation. Not only must you also use one platform, but they want everyone to purchase one particular version of the OS (Vista) before you can get it.

There is no technical reason why DX10 won't run on Windows XP. It's just that Microsoft decided they don't want you to.

OpenGL is an industry wide cross-platform solution. You can choose the OS you want to run it on.

[inguatu]

Vista has taken 5 years to develop (don't ask me why).

Microsoft did something that would damage OpenGL considerably.

Microsoft announced that the driver software (that controls your ATI or NVIDIA cards) would no longer be able to access OpenGL directly.

Instead, Microsoft said, Vista would be a DirectX-only operating system. Those wishing to access OpenGL would have to do it via DirectX, which would slow down the performance of OpenGL considerably in Vista.

So developers were left thinking that the only way to do 3D graphics on Vista was via DirectX instead of OpenGL. It was a clever way to persuade developers to abandon OpenGL.

Then, relatively late in the 5 year Vista development cycle, Microsoft announced that Vista would after all include direct access to OpenGL. However, the damage was done.

I cannot explain why Microsoft left OpenGL dangling on a thread for so long. No wonder the driver software is late for Vista.

With DirectX 10, there is now a vendor lock-in situation. Not only must you also use one platform, but they want everyone to purchase one particular version of the OS (Vista) before you can get it.

There is no technical reason why DX10 won't run on Windows XP. It's just that Microsoft decided they don't want you to.

OpenGL is an industry wide cross-platform solution. You can choose the OS you want to run it on.

I'm not sure why you posted the development time for Vista but since you did, what about the development time for OpenGL and how far have they actually gone with it, considering today's advancements in hardware?

Actually, OpenGL didn't really "work" in XP or below. It was up to the card developers to write drivers supporting it. Also, there is technical reasons why DX10 won't run on XP and it's not because MS decided they don't want you to.

OpenGL is a a cross-platform solution, however, due to their staleness in updating the specifications, other solutions whether they be platform-dependant or not have surfaced. I don't blame other developers for wanting to come up with something new if an existing solution lies dormant, regardless if it is Microsoft or someone trying to do something more with OpenGL like SDL.

[Shanytc]

it wouldn't be that annoying using maya with vista if maya's viewport wouldn't flickr all the time!

[bluemagicuk]

Vista will need to do a LOT more convincing before i even throw a whim towards buying it . We have had a few on test pc's at work and from what ive seen its a waste of money and the worst case of software blackmail i have ever seen.

Microsoft cant stay looking this stupid though they must have a plan so I will wait and see.

[Saurus]

It's actually quite a bit different, as Microsoft is forcing manufacturers to develop for M$'s own technology rather than industry standards (ie: OpenGL). That has NEVER happened before, especially in any of the examples you mentioned above.

I also can't remember a time when an OS upgrade has 'forced' such a drastic change in hardware in order to achieve even basic functionality.

We will not be buying into any of the Vista bullsh!t over here, and have commited to Linux/OSX exclusively.

Hmm…didn’t a similar problem happen when Apple switched to universal binaries? Those with new Intel base machine had non universal software with less desirable performance. Even Maya took almost a year to go universal. And on top of that, most software makers are charging people to get universal software when it should be a free patch….but why blame software makers when it is extra work for them. Who do you blame…Apple for switching or software developer for not switching fast enough? But I guess in this case, its fashionable to blame M$.

[KayosIII]

OpenGL is a a cross-platform solution, however, due to their staleness in updating the specifications, other solutions whether they be platform-dependant or not have surfaced. I don't blame other developers for wanting to come up with something new if an existing solution lies dormant, regardless if it is Microsoft or someone trying to do something more with OpenGL like SDL.

Staleness has very little to do with it... Microsoft was still able to get much more support from Hardware manufacturers / game companies when OpenGL was far more feature rich / easy to develop for than DirectX. Admittedly it was easier to write directX drivers (but harder to write directx 3d games)...

SDL is not a a compeditor to OpenGL. It is most comonly used as a companion Library for writing cross platform games.. ie use OpenGL for 3D graphics, SDL to handle input. In fact there AFAIK are no 3D compeditors to OpenGL other than DirectX... Good luck trying to get hardware manufacturers to write another set of drivers if you don't control the vast majority of the PC market.

Looking at this page http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/OpenGL ... There are plans to get OpenGL much closer to feature parity with DirectX 10 as of October this year. Typically give Nvidia a few months to get out stable drivers and ATI a few more months... (most of these features are already available as extensions)...

So does the full OpenGL implementation work when Aero is active??? If so that is good news.

[mech7]

So does the full OpenGL implementation work when Aero is active??? If so that is good news.


From what i have read is that it is possible to run Aero through Open GL and it was even quicker, only you needed to install an ICD i think only Nvidia has a beta driver out.

[Fredl]

From the article:All of the products in the current Creative Suite 2.3 -- Photoshop CS2, InDesign CS2, Illustrator CS2, GoLive CS2, Acrobat 8 Professional and Dreamweaver 8 -- don’t officially support Vista
***
It notes one major issue that can stop Encore from running
***
Autodesk hasn’t included official support for Windows Vista to Maya 8.5, which was announced and released on January 15 -- nor does the current version of 3DS Max 9.
***
Hardware support for Vista -- though further along than that with many software tools -- is nowhere near complete.
Given these current issues, I'm surprised if anyone is using Vista in a production enviroment.

My personal observation is that many people in the Graphics/3D industry who are current Windows XP users are reluctant to change to Vista. If the graphics professionals are not rushing to Vista, then nobody can expect the software vendors to rush to support it.

[Saurus]

From the article:All of the products in the current Creative Suite 2.3 -- Photoshop CS2, InDesign CS2, Illustrator CS2, GoLive CS2, Acrobat 8 Professional and Dreamweaver 8 -- don’t officially support Vista

***
It notes one major issue that can stop Encore from running
***
Autodesk hasn’t included official support for Windows Vista to Maya 8.5, which was announced and released on January 15 -- nor does the current version of 3DS Max 9.
***
Hardware support for Vista -- though further along than that with many software tools -- is nowhere near complete.

Given these current issues, I'm surprised if anyone is using Vista in a production enviroment.


My personal observation is that many people in the Graphics/3D industry who are current Windows XP users are reluctant to change to Vista. If the graphics professionals are not rushing to Vista, then nobody can expect the software vendors to rush to support it.

I’ll bet you for your shiny new macbook, that 3d industry will implement Vista faster than they did universal binary.

[Kid Dynomite]

I'm so not interested in Vista. I'd buy a Mac if they weren't overpriced and un-upgradable.

I had a good laugh when I read in the paper that CompUSA was opening at midnight for the big premier of Vista. I'd of been shocked if anyone actually showed up to buy it.

[KayosIII]

From what i have read is that it is possible to run Aero through Open GL and it was even quicker, only you needed to install an ICD i think only Nvidia has a beta driver out.

That is as good as an outcome as anybody could have hoped for....

[Ian Jones]

I'm not sure why you posted the development time for Vista but since you did, what about the development time for OpenGL and how far have they actually gone with it, considering today's advancements in hardware?

Actually, OpenGL didn't really "work" in XP or below. It was up to the card developers to write drivers supporting it. Also, there is technical reasons why DX10 won't run on XP and it's not because MS decided they don't want you to.

OpenGL is a a cross-platform solution, however, due to their staleness in updating the specifications, other solutions whether they be platform-dependant or not have surfaced. I don't blame other developers for wanting to come up with something new if an existing solution lies dormant, regardless if it is Microsoft or someone trying to do something more with OpenGL like SDL.

There are so many incorrect statements in here.

Microsoft have been crippling OpenGL for a long time as in XP OpenGL 1.1 is all that is available because Microsoft chose not to continue updating it. Nvidia and ATI aswell as other graphics hardware vendors continued to open hardware advancements up to OpenGL developers with the extensions mechanism. It's a simple case of Microsoft bullying a competitor because they have a similar product in the marketplace. Frankly this is appalling behaviour.

I don't deny that DirectX is a powerful API and a very good thing for the realtime graphics industry... but it is Platform dependant which is a terribly backward thing.

Oh yeh SDL doesn't do more with OpenGL... you should read up about what SDL is.

[jbradley]

I’ll bet you for your shiny new macbook, that 3d industry will implement Vista faster than they did universal binary.

It took most 3d software vendors less than a year to get universal binary. Most vendors did not charge for a UB update - they charged for a new version of the software that was UB and added new features as part of their regular dev cycle. Most of them are due to the fact that they have 6 mo. to 1 year development cycles and aren't going to release anything in between 'just to support' something new.

I'd say the impact on the graphics market is affected more by the Mac Intel machines than Vista - by a significant long shot. I honestly don't believe artists and graphics professionals as a whole want to deal with Vista. I'll stick with Win2k , XP Pro, Linux and OS X for a long while, thank you very much.

The chance of most of the 3d industry adopting Vista within a year is laughable, at best.

[Saurus]

It took most 3d software vendors less than a year to get universal binary. Most vendors did not charge for a UB update - they charged for a new version of the software that was UB and added new features as part of their regular dev cycle. Most of them are due to the fact that they have 6 mo. to 1 year development cycles and aren't going to release anything in between 'just to support' something new.

I'd say the impact on the graphics market is affected more by the Mac Intel machines than Vista - by a significant long shot. I honestly don't believe artists and graphics professionals as a whole want to deal with Vista. I'll stick with Win2k , XP Pro, Linux and OS X for a long while, thank you very much.

The chance of most of the 3d industry adopting Vista within a year is laughable, at best.

A lot of problems with Vista is driver optimize issue. A lot simpler to fix, than switching to Apple’s UB. Also note that the gaming industry (which primary uses PC machines) is no small fry, and with DirectX 10 being the next game standard and requiring Vista, I’m sure the graphic industry will adapt Vista faster than it did UB.

I have been using RC2 on my lowly laptop tablet (1.1 GHz/1 gig/32 nvidiaGo) for about 4 months. I updated my HD to 7200 and my tablet ran faster than when it had XP. My tablet is limited to 1 gig, but with Vista’s ready boost, I can use SD card to bump my memory to 3 gig. I just can’t think of going back to XP. It’s not as bad as what people say!

[RiKToR]

Change is unlike by most people, I will admit I never wanted to get off Win98 but someone told 2 years after XP came out how much more stable it was. I switched and XP was definately worth the change. Not that Im saying Im going to Vista, Im saying I will wait and see if MS makes a significant change with SPs and hot fixes to address these issues. But Im also not taking any chances, Im learning a linux distro, and I have been quite pleased with the changes on apple hardware that I have a backup to move to.

I guess its like this for me, plan for the worse and all suprises are pleasant.

[harlan_hill]

Hmm…didn’t a similar problem happen when Apple switched to universal binaries?


No, that's not the case at all. Apple changed hardware, and they provided a means for those upgrading to the new hardware a way to use their current software without having to buy into anything (for the most part*). Also, Universal Binaries are just that, Universal, they work on both systems.

The main difference, and the issue I have with M$, is that M$ has a tendency to force people/developers into working the way M$ thinks they should, and not what is best for the developer. Using the OGL issue from before, if a developer has a large product line based on OGL, they're now having to either convert to DX exclusively or code their own OGL engine - it's a real shitty way of doing something. Let's not forget the whole "monopoly" antitrust/unfair practices lawsuits that M$ has been found guilty of across the globe. I'm not saying anything out of platform bias as is often implied by everyone on these boards just because you may have a differing opinion than theirs. My point is simply that M$ has proven itself to be a tremendously distrustful company time and time again (as most large companies - even Apple), and with the nonsense they're pulling with Windows Vista, I'd be far more prone to giving my money to a post-op/syphillitic/prostitute than to Microsoft.

I'm not in any way claiming that OGL is better than DX10 or anything like that. I'm not claiming that one platform or company is better than the other. I just do not like the way Microsoft is pushing things these days, and I won't be a part of it.

Oh, and since some are so damn finicky around here occassionally, I'll go ahead and say that my usage of "M$" stems from my laziness and that it's a commonly accepted/understood reference to Microsoft.

* - The reason I said "for the most part" regarding the UB's earlier is that like 99% of the apps converted to Universal Binary were free upgrades and are identical on both PPC & Intel platforms, some apps had an upgrade fee applied (but that was mostly due to them being a larger update with new features, etc.. which would've been a paid update anyway).

Damn... it's pretty sad to see that we've had to reach a point here where we need so many disclaimers for having an opinion. ;)

[harlan_hill]

A lot of problems with Vista is driver optimize issue. A lot simpler to fix, than switching to Apple’s UB. Also note that the gaming industry (which primary uses PC machines) is no small fry, and with DirectX 10 being the next game standard and requiring Vista, I’m sure the graphic industry will adapt Vista faster than it did UB.


Again.... the difference is that with M$ it's a case of "If you want to play with us, YOU WILL do it OUR way, or you're on your own". The deal with the Apple UB, is not remotely similar so I fail to see why you reference it as it is.

Apple changed hardware and not only simultaneously supports both hardware platforms with the OS, but they provided a method for all applications to support both hardware platforms, and they even threw in an emulator to aid the transition for those who were early adopters.

Okay... I'm done with this assanine conversation.

[inguatu]

Again.... the difference is that with M$ it's a case of "If you want to play with us, YOU WILL do it OUR way, or you're on your own". The deal with the Apple UB, is not remotely similar so I fail to see why you reference it as it is.

Apple changed hardware and not only simultaneously supports both hardware platforms with the OS, but they provided a method for all applications to support both hardware platforms, and they even threw in an emulator to aid the transition for those who were early adopters.

Okay... I'm done with this assanine conversation.


MICROSOFT has every right to do what they want with a technology they started years ago or creating something new for THEIR operating system. People are just pissy because it's MICROSOFT.

I'm glad you're out of the conversation. Cya!

I understand the fanaticism for Apple products. I know they've really kicked it up over the past few years and it's good to see that. Other developers needed that kick in the pants! They're making quality products again, but the whole anti-Microsoft thing is played out, tiresome and in poor taste these days (ie. M$)

[Joss]

I just hate having this division of technology. One camp isn't playing so nicely are they? I have two (out dated)Macs & two Windows PCs and I'm tired of having to decide what platform to upgrade to next.

We need unification damnit!
(uh-oh, I left the Unix guys a nice nugget.)

[KayosIII]

The main difference, and the issue I have with M$, is that M$ has a tendency to force people/developers into working the way M$ thinks they should, and not what is best for the developer. Using the OGL issue from before, if a developer has a large product line based on OGL, they're now having to either convert to DX exclusively or code their own OGL engine - it's a real shitty way of doing something.

Well It looks like MS have caved in here - making the situation not appreciably different to what we have now with XP... If you want decent OpenGL drivers your video card manufacturer will have to provide them. I think we can count on Nvidia and Intel doing that and now that AMD owns ATI I am pretty sure that they are likely to follow suite.

[KayosIII]

MICROSOFT has every right to do what they want with a technology they started years ago or creating something new for THEIR operating system. People are just pissy because it's MICROSOFT.

Its not so much what microsoft do with their own technologies - Its the fact that they actively try to lock out 3rd party technologies. What Microsoft originally wanted was to not allow Third parties to create drivers that would support OpenGL forcing those who wanted non fullscreen OpenGL apps to either do without Aero or limit themselves to OpenGL 1.4 technology through an emulation layer.

Part of this obviously would be to coax developers to port their OpenGL apps accross to Directx due to the entry barriers. In the long term this could stop some applications from running on non MS platforms due to the complications with supporting both Directx and OpenGL. This would put a lot of people in the same position as Logic or Shake Users on Windows based machines where after Apple Aquired these companies.

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