Basics - Rigging it .. How to?

[Ulven]

I think in messiah you can make it about as complex or as simple as you want/need. Some of the better rigs I've seen are both, simple, with a bit of complexity running 'under the hood' to make it easy to use. If your rig looks like a garbled mess and you have waggely controls for every little thing all over shop; spinners, sliders, boxes, quasi automation etc, you're generally on the wrong track imho. Make it easy for the animators, better yet; make it easy for your mum, to animate with. Intuitive is good. A great example of this is Suricate's 'A rig for discussion' thread. We made a guy who had never touched 3d animation sit down with it and play and within minutes he was getting a fairly good grip on how to move stuff and could pose the character the way he wanted.

If you're just starting out, just draw the bones directly onto the character with realtime add/modify as in the bones tutorial on pmg's site. you can always change the rig later.

Personally I use a lot of muscle bones parented to nulls. Any motion generally happens to the nulls while the muscle bones target eachother so that they always keep the overall shape in place. I use mostly hold bones to correct deformations.

[Ulven]

Also the documentation by Fred provides a great starting point for the basics of rigging in messiah, it really is quite painless and forgiving.

[ctguitars]

Thanks Ulven,

What I was after is to see how others would rig a simple character like the one provided. Just wanted to see where others would position bones, nulls etc and how they would use same to control the mesh. Its curiosity really and hopefully a few AH HA type moments when looking at work by others - all on the same mesh,

Cheers
CTGUITARS

[biliousfrog]

not trying to get someone to rig your character then?

[ctguitars]

Now Now biliousfrog,

My intentions are honourable. It is NOT the case that I am trying to get others to do my work. The mesh is basic and cheezy anyway so wouldnt be used in anything other than for practise. I would be a messiah newby relative to alot of you guys, I find a good way to learn is by example. Maybe stupid of me OR even innocent - to think a good way for me and others is to see a simple full character mesh rigged by different people and see from the resultant files how OTHERS do this. By using the same simple character everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet.

Good Day to you Sir :)
CTGUITARS

[Tama]

not trying to get someone to rig your character then?

I was wondering why not just reuse the rigs that come with messiah for the simple character?

[Ulven]

ctguitars: Yep I kinda understand what you're after and it's not a bad idea, but I think a lot of what you seek can be discovered already. Look in the content directory, and look at the free rigs provided earlier, look at the demo reels of marek schneider and john riggs. Look at this great resource (http://messiahcollective.blogspot.com/) and this one (http://www.zoogono.com/). All bipeds will have enough in common that you can learn something from all of them without the rig needing to be fitted to this character. I'm not trying to piss on your idea here, I'm just suggesting some alternate means by which you can obtain the information you seek.

Edit: For the record it is exactly by dissecting the various example scenes that I learned how to rig. Starting with copying what has been done bone for bone. (Open two instances of messiah and keep the 'recipie' one in the background. Alt-tab between the two), then trying to think about motion and how to animate it, then experiment a little when you have the basics down.

[biliousfrog]

haha...sorry, I do get your point. Unfortunately I started this whole CG forum thing with 3dbuzz.com where there would be constant requests from students for people to do their homework for them...it gave me a bit of a flashback when I saw the post. :D

[Nichod]

I think the Ogre rig is going to be as basic as you are going to get.

http://zoogono.com/goodies.cfm

Don't forget about the Joe Cosman CDs. If you want to see a setup. For $25 it can't be beat to get at least one of the CDs to get you started.

[stooch]

hmm these are all very basic questions that dont really deal with messiah as much as anatomy and rigging fundamentals... best bet is to buy dvds from cosman and the like and watch. :)

and btw not just cosman dvds, go check out the gnomon tutorials, when talking about bone placement any rigging tut from any program will suffice...

and btw although there are alot of different ways to controll a skeleton, the placement of the actual skeleton doesnt really change much since its closely related to real skeletons...

and yeah there are alot of rigged examples for you to see both here on the forums and included with messiah...

[ctguitars]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the above. Ulven - I had a look through all the sample rigs in messiah, all the useful ones seemed to include alot of Expressions. I was looking for a rigged mesh comtrolled by IK/FK alone, maybe some sliders etc. Are Expressions essential? Can you rig and animate without them? from the examples they would appear to be essential . For a beginner they look scary :)

Will have a look at that Nichod, thanks

Stooch - "these are all very basic questions that dont really deal with messiah" - maybe but its more to get a feel for how this stuff works in messiah particularly. When one is focusing on an app its nice to see first hand how that app handles things as opposed to any other. I am not looking for a general lesson in rigging, just best practice in messiah.

Cheers
CTGUITARS

[stooch]

well the thing is that your complaint that there are alot of rigs that use extensive expressions and what im saying is that all rigs really work similarly across all apps. its the expressions that make messiah rigs special and the fact that there is alot of them being used is a good thing and where the power of messiah lies. they are very easy to implement in messiah and there is no benefit to limit yourself only to IK/FK (in such a case ANY EXAMPLE FROM ANY APP WILL SUFFICE!)

[ctguitars]

Hi Guys,

Well - I just went off and bought all 5 of Joes CD's, so I await the postman on that one.

Stooch - Ok, expressions seem to be the necessary thing. Do you know of any good tutes on usage of same beyond the manual? point me to them if you know and I will gladly lap them up. Just on the off chance,

Cheers
CTGUITARS

[stooch]

JOE COSMAN. lol linked from the PMG site.

not free though, but worth it.

[Ulven]

One of the things that make the expressions in messiah easy to use is that there's generally a little explaination of how to use them when you select them in the list. Most riggers also use the expressions for the IK solutions because it gives you control of 'when' the solution takes place. Thusly you gain the additional control of for instance fading the IK in and out (with the keyfader expression), or adding a IKTel expression after the IK2D expression (which causes the IK controlled limb to stretch out for the IK goal). The list of expressions gets run through from the top and downwards so everything it's linear and easy to use.

You don't HAVE to use expressions though, you can use the interface to make an IK chain as in the tutorial in the documentation (IK leg or somesuch). All the other bones are automatically FK, so no expressions there. Draw a skeleton onto your model (IE two or three bones for the spine, a neck bone, a head bone or two, a clavicle, an upper arm lower arm, hand, etc etc.) rotate a bone in animate mode and see if it deforms well. if not, slap in another bone as a child of whatever it should move with and position it close to the geometry that's doing badly. Generally you can get a perfectly decent rig with just a few bones in messiah.

I hear the cosman vids are great for the general learning of messiah rigging.

[ctguitars]

ULVEN - One of the things that make the expressions in messiah easy to use is that there's generally a little explaination of how to use them when you select them in the list.

Thanks for that tip, yes I had a look at the expression explanations. Man their are tons of them. Heres another question - is their an expression short list of the most used and most useful? Maybe a sticky thread with top 20 expressions and their use? Good / Bad idea?

Cheers
CTGUITARS

[stooch]

take a look at any of the rigs provided, they will be using most common experssions generally.

[Ulven]

Emm, well, I'll give you a quick rundown of the ones I use the most, but it's largely dependant on what you need to do in any given circumstance.
InheritRoot
InheritEnd
IK2d
IKTel
KeyFader
MoveTo
Align
DynamicParent
[object:channel]*/+-Number or Value (or anything similar that I remember from high school maths) and apply to the channel you need. an arbitrary example: [hand_L:bank]*0.5 -> underarm_L_1, bank channel

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.