Character: Orc Mordor

[ODD]

good so far!
but something is wrong with the left eye.
And you should work on the texture it hast to be more dirtyer!
Sorry for my bad english!
go on with your work! im currently working on a uruk hai if u wanna see a pic! post it here!
see ya

P.S: im planing a short movie too!
its a movie with a fight elbs vs. uruks!

[leigh]

Before you jump onto the tasks of texturing and such, I think you need to practise your modelling a little bit more.

Looking at this, I can see that you definitely need to work a little more on your forms - the model could do with a lot more definition in its structure. Although you have managed to roughly form the entire model, you really need to start going in there and adding detail such as muscular definition, edge loops for more shapely topology, and other such details ;)

Also, on the subject of the model itself, the body is too short. Orcs also tend to be very bent in their stature, since they are essentially tortured bodies - you need stoop his back a lot, and bend his limbs into a more squat pose.

As for the texturing, that needs a lot more work, as well as your lighting :)
Your texture maps are too low res for this model. Either that, or you have simply created details that are too large and bold. For example, your bump map - those details should be much finer, and more consistent. A bump map needs a lot more details apart from a bunch of large wrinkles ;) You need to add a grain to the skin, as well as add minor roughness and blemishes to it.

The colour is also far too plain. Skin tones are made out of many, many different shades. The clothing is also far too plain right now. It also doesn't seem right for this character - orcs wear more armour. And it isn't orange :sad:

Apart from these, you also need to learn a bit more about texturing, such as using spec and gloss maps to create a better "finish" for the textures. You also need to develop a better sense of details - with texturing, it's all about adding the correct details to make a character look interesting and believable.

I think that perhaps you should get some more reference material for this, and continue to work on it :)

Good luck!

[DogBreath]

ODD - Thankyou.

something is wrong with the left eye.

- I thought of fixing his eye
but I wanted him to have imperfections
do you think it just looks like a mistake.

And you should work on the texture it has to be more dirtyer!

- He could be dirtier, do you have any suggestions how I could achieve that.

im currently working on a uruk hai if u wanna see a pic! post it

- I would like to see your Urak Hai, plse post your pic!



LEIGH - Thanks for all your comments, much appreciated.

the model could do with a lot more definition in its structure.
adding detail such as muscular definition, edge loops for more shapely topology,

- Do you mean details and muscle definition in the forearms.
I have used edgeloops on the face.

the body is too short.
Orcs also tend to be very bent
you need stoop his back a lot, and bend his limbs into a more squat pose.

- The Body is already bent foward, which is why it probably looks short.
And he is already squatting and leaning to the right or being contorted.

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~mbelcher/Index/Orc%20Mordor%20twins.jpg

Your texture maps are too low res for this model.

- The texture maps are 1440 x 1440
I did try a skin texture bump map and was'nt happy with the look, it lost the details I have. I could add it and tweak the present features up more so they are'nt lost.
I wanted a face, pock marked by disease and bad diet (we've only had moldy old bread for 3 days).

The colour is also far too plain. Skin tones are made out of many, many different shades. The clothing is also far too plain right now.

- The amount of tones that are in the skin texture at the moment are about 15-20. I did create 5 other skin effects ranging from dark through to light ,all very blotchy (there is a lot of green and blue and red if you look closely), I settled on this one. You can see the real texture for the armour in the attached image.

Apart from these, you also need to learn a bit more about texturing, such as using spec and gloss maps to create a better "finish" for the textures.

- I did'nt use Spec and gloss maps, I did a number of tests changing the spec and gloss material settings instead. He is from Mordor so He spends alot of time near heat, so I could have him looking burnt (like a burnt steak), with a dark appearance or a more ruddy look that was drier and more flat and powdery looking.
I wanted him to look less than alive so I went for the later.
But I will have another look at those maps

[Capel]

hmmmm... i know he's an orc and all, so his features definately shouldn't be symmetrical, but in all good cg modeling, things just look..... right, even with deformed bad guys like orcs. This orcs face doesn't have that right look, in my opinion. Especially around the eyes. The deformations are more distracting than anything else. And the way his eyes sit in their sockets is weird. You're off to a good start, but i'd just go back and tweak every aspect you can. Add detail and get those fingers to close around the sword more realistically. Don't be in any kind of rush to shoot out a character that's all rigged and ready to be animated. Chances are you'll be focusing on only one aspect of the whole production process when you get out into the industry and start doing this shit for money. My suggestion would be to pick one or two things(modeling, animation) and focus hard core on them. And now, i will shut up. Thanks for enduring my novel, man! :beer:

[ODD]

The EYE:

yeah u should improve! the eye it should be imperfect yeah but it doesnt look real! maybe bigger eye lids.

Now the Dirty-Effect:

if u are using maya u should use a diffuse map with a 3d texture hmm i would use cloud! if u are not using maya try to paint some transparenty mud on the cloth surface! like he was fighting few min ago ;)
sorry for my bad english!

my uruk-hai:
http://www.nord-com.net/m.lehmer/uruk2.jpg

[leigh]

Do you mean details and muscle definition in the forearms.

Yeah, you need more definition in those arms. At the moment, they simply look too plain, and unbelievable as a working limb.

The Body is already bent foward, which is why it probably looks short.
And he is already squatting and leaning to the right or being contorted.

In my opinion, he isn't bending enough. The orcs walk in an almost painful looking squat, with their legs completely bent, as well as their backs - they would not appear as straight up as your character.

Have a look at this orc that I have been working on - Moria orc body (http://leigh.cgcommunity.com/images/Orc_10.jpg). See how much I have bent his body and limbs? Even that isn't enough, he should still be bent even more than that.

The amount of tones that are in the skin texture at the moment are about 15-20. I did create 5 other skin effects ranging from dark through to light ,all very blotchy (there is a lot of green and blue and red if you look closely), I settled on this one. You can see the real texture for the armour in the attached image.

Yeah, but it still isn't enough, in my opinion, tone-wise. Skin tonal changes range from extremely subtle ones, to very blotchy, noticeable ones.
I am not entirely sure which kind of orc this is, I am guessing it is one of the ones that originated at Isengard, since they have a more pinkish/blueish complexion, as compared with the ones in Moria, that are green. If this is so, you need to incorporate more purples and blues and greys into the skin - at the moment, the skin actually looks completely wrong.

Check out in The Fellowshop Of The Ring - those orcs they show at the beginning of the film that growl at the camera are a great reference for colours. If you don't have any references, I can supply you with some from my DVD.

You need to develop your painting skills a bit, because at the moment I get the impression that you are simply painting arbitrary strokes, instead of giving careful thought to their look and placement. As I said, I would be happy to supply a few screenshots of the orcs from the film, should you need some good reference :)

Colour changes are also not so haphazard. If you look at even a normal human skin, you will notice that colour changes can be very specific, according to different areas. Such as lips - lips are always a different colour to the surrounding facial skin. It also has a very different specularity to skin, as well as gloss, diffusion, bump, etc. Also notice on a human face the skin in the area just below the eyes - it also has a very different colour and quality to the other facial skin. These are very specific changes in skin tone and quality that are standard throughout all humans. So you must put a bit more thought into the placement of certain colour changes in your textures. For instance, your orcs lips are the same colour as the surrounding skin. You need to go back to your colour map and give some thought to what tonal changes you need, and then apply them.

The key to creating cool textures is in having a good eye for detail, and being able to replicate it well. Skin isn't just a mixmatch of blotchy tones, it's a delicate blend of tones, and in this case, should also be overlayed with dirt and grime, as orcs generally tend to be really filthy.

To make him dirtier, just add that dirt detail to the skin texture maps - it's really quite simple ;)

The texture maps are 1440 x 1440
I did try a skin texture bump map and was'nt happy with the look, it lost the details I have. I could add it and tweak the present features up more so they are'nt lost.
I wanted a face, pock marked by disease and bad diet (we've only had moldy old bread for 3 days).

Then it is simply a matter of painting your textures more carefully ;)

Don't make the details sooo bold - the bump map should be a nice combination of skin grain, wrinkles, and bolder wrinkles and blemishes here and there.

Remember, details such as that are not only in your bump map - all details affect ALL texture channels in some way or another.

Think about it - a wrinkle would tend to gather encrusted dirt, which obviously affects everything else, because dirt has a different colour, a different diffusion, a different spec, etc. The same applies to any kind of detail - you have to consider how that detail will affect all the different attributes of a texture :)

For example, a pock marked face, such as you want, would be scarred and pitted. Scar tissue is shinier, for starters, and also has a slightly different colour to normal skin. It also diffuses light differently, because it has different absorbency, usually because it is slightly thinner.

When texturing, you need to consider all these things :)

I did'nt use Spec and gloss maps, I did a number of tests changing the spec and gloss material settings instead. He is from Mordor so He spends alot of time near heat, so I could have him looking burnt (like a burnt steak), with a dark appearance or a more ruddy look that was drier and more flat and powdery looking.
I wanted him to look less than alive so I went for the later.
But I will have another look at those maps

Yeah, do yourself a favour and start using them! They are really important for conveying certain properties of things.

I'd imagine that some sweat and grime would be more appropriate for an orc that spends its life near furnaces and such ;) Use spc and gloss maps to create that look.

If you want to have a look at the textures I did for my own orc, here is a render (http://leigh.cgcommunity.com/images/Orc_08.jpg), and you can also look at the way I made all the textures and also the model of the head itself, here (http://leigh.cgcommunity.com/making_of.htm). As you can see, I am a MAJOR Lord Of The Rings fan, that is why I want to help you make a kickass orc!

About the clothes:

- Firstly, I think they are too clean and neat for an orc! Mess him up a lot, add some spikes - these guys are mean, there is no way that they are going to dress this neatly!

- It looks like you may have painted lighting tones into your colour maps - rather let the lighting in your scene do that for you.

- It seems that you are creating a lot of details that should actually be modelled, in your textures. Details like buckles and studs should rather be modelled, not just put in the texture maps.

- Give him some more armour! :D

[phoenix2k]

yeah mess him up a little (a lot :D), he looks too clean...

in his face: maybe do some real rips in the geometry, remember, these are fighters... most of them have a slash somewhere through their face, and these are too large to "fake" with bump maps...
also, he needs more wrinkles (also geometry)...


anyway... mess him up and bend him more, like leigh said... try to achive an injured, harmed look :)...

[DogBreath]

Capel - I agree with you about the skull symetry around the eye, and the eyeball in the socket, I have tweaked that a bit. I'm not sure how to make the eyeball fit though, because I want to be able to animate it,

My problem there is...

to fill the socket without the skin closing on the eyeball, the eyeball would have to be really big or an unnatural shape.Unless I reduce the size of his eyesockets to more human dimensions.Much smaller.

ODD

- I am working on the eye, and will try your transparent mud suggestion.
I had a look at your Urak Hai, and it looks like its coming along well. Do you have it posted here yet. Looking foward to seeing it progress.

LEIGH

- I'm working on the definition of the arms.
- I will give him a much more orcish pose. ( I've already studied your orc, not in enough detail obviously.....they all look the same after awhile....ugly and bad.)
- As for the kind of Orc he is, he is'nt a copy he's a blending of all the references I have and abit of my own interpretation. I could go into a long rave - look at this shot and this pic etc but it would end up a full length doco on Orc building material sources.

If you mean by the orcs at the begining of FOTR , the orc with the 5 rings in his nose I have one shot of those two orcs with grey skin. I would really like any shots that you have which you dont mind sharing with me.
My painting needs work, I have tried to organise the tones, I think I need to go in closer still.I will do some spec and gloss maps as you suggest, and add a dirt layer.
- I will make him more agressive looking
- I didnt paint in lights ( The textures are mucked up because I have relinked and ungrouped parts since unwrapping and they dont fit. The patches on the armour will be worn leather. I will make the leather darker. It has been 4 colours so far.
The buckles and studs are modelled but refer to above, (textures now dont fit properly, will fix that).
- I know my lighting is terrible, I dont have a lot of ideas there, I've heard you all talk about standard lighting setups, but don't know what they are. this is spot on the right, fill spot in the front.
would like the reference shots that you mentioned.

Thanks for all your great help.


phoenix2k

- Yes your right, wrinkles and scar tissue.Im gonna .....mess.... him....uup.Thanks for your suggestions, see you in a few weeks.

Thanks all for your input - I really have some direction to go now.

heres an update I have done some tweaking of the skull and check muscle around the right eye, made his eyes a bit puffy, like not enough sleep.

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~mbelcher/Index/Orc%20144.jpg

I suppose this should be in wip now.

[leigh]

I'm moving this to WIP :)

Good luck!

I'll see if I can grab some more reference pics for you of those orcs :)

For some more detailed info about lighing, check these out:
Pixel Cinematography (http://www.siggraph.org/education/materials/siggraph_courses/s96_course30.pdf)
This gives you a great resource of information on lighting setups :)

[DogBreath]

Leigh - Thanks for that link, that is exactly what I was looking for.
I have had a very quick browse through and I saw the 3 light setup,
which I will try as soon as I've got some results worth posting.

[leigh]

Good to hear you like the article! :D

I found it an excellent read, and I still consult it a lot :)

Looking forward to seeing some progress on your orc!

[DogBreath]

I have worked some details into the hands and forearms,
I'm not completely happy with them at the mo,
but dont have time to do more work on them till early
next week.
I altered the eye socket size and cheek definition to make
it more proportioned, plus a few other minor details.

these are some quick spec level and gloss map tests on
the textures for the leather armour and another layer to
make it dirtier. I know its a bit flat still but as I said its
just a quick test. This is only a base skin texture.

I animated him doing a walk and was'nt pleased with the intersecting
and so decided after doing abit of research
to join the armour etc into one piece after texturing them,
so I will complete the textures next. I made a few
experimental pieces of armour to see if they would animate better.

This is a 3 light setup, any comments or critz would be
much appreciated.

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~mbelcher/Index/Orc%20161.jpg

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~mbelcher/Index/orc%20163.jpg

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