Warezed copies of Max

[lostfilez]

Well it usually works out though... they ask stupid questions, we give stupid answers. :p

[Stroker]

I do my best to keep my sense of humour when I start getting annoyed with the lack of basic research.

http://w3.chrlmi.cablespeed.com/~halmich/ozone/ereasematid.gif (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45620)

[MFreywald]

Yup, thats the one that made me crack Stroker. :P

[Stroker]

Heh.
Here's one I keep handy for the PhotoShop knobs: Almost Leet Filter Set (http://w3.chrlmi.cablespeed.com/~halmich/ozone/leetmenus2.gif).

It's some how relaxing doing this kind of thing.

[MFreywald]

LOL...that's awesome, gonna be bookmarking that one. thanks :)

[3dsMax51cs4]

I guess sometimes we are just lazy, cause even if they have warezed copies they are now distributed in ISO format, even more p2p appz make it really easy to get the manuals and any info on most appz, and some times we are dumb or miss something believe me I've been there reading manuals that won't make sense until I realize there's something I overlooked.

:buttrock:

[MFreywald]

I think what gets me the most is the obviously 'I just downloaded max and cant figure how to make a light source' type questions. all it takes is to hit the F1 key and do a search. I guarantee your gonna find the answer there faster than waiting for someone to respond here or anywhere for that matter. I love helping people with thier problems and trying to get a certain 'look' in a rendering. But when it's day in and day out of people with like 1-5 posts under thier name with questions on how to make a box...just irritating sometimes.. But I think it was mostly just a combination of a bad day and one too many fundamental max questions that set me off.. I'm surely not trying to flame anyone, just maybe get these people to try helping themselves as much as ask for us to help.

[Egyt]

Hi I'm new here I've created a sphere and how do I make it blow up with realistic flames,,, argh this suck cant figure out how to make those EMP refraction schockwaves... :love: j/k

Tbh I think those
I-d/l'ed-max-and-want-to-do-cool-visual-fx-rightaway-Q's are more funny than those really try to find out about the basics :P

btw I saw this poll on this forum a while ago... I believe most of the ppl here used illegal copies.

[Standard Poodle]

I know what you guys mean, this is my second post, and my first was one for help. And before that I had at least managed to figure out how to do stuff like this:

http://www.anti-matter.netfirms.com/files/taer1.jpg
http://www.anti-matter.netfirms.com/files/taerprettyrender.jpg
http://www.anti-matter.netfirms.com/files/TREE.jpg
http://www.anti-matter.netfirms.com/files/Watersphererising2.jpg

Alright, I did that with just the manuals (help and tutorials in the program), and maybe 1 tutorial online. It is absurd to think that they can't figure out how to make a box with all that in front of them. Not to mention that even an idiot such as myself should be able to just mess with the interface for 5 minutes, and understand how to make the basic primitives. They get the software, and just want to know how to make awesome stuff. They don't have respect enough to at least try to relieve stuff on you guys. They need someone holding their hand the whole way, which is just dumb. I respect you guys alot for not blowing up on them.

[Joel Hooks]

Well, even Discreet doesn't ship Max with books anymore - the help file is that thorough.

But I know what you mean about the ignorant questions. I am teaching my 5 year old how to run Max, and sometimes he asks better questions than the type you are reffering to.

[PedramK]

LOL
you guys think its bad here?
think about the question we get on IRC.

[glorious100]

I don't thinck there are many people who can/will spend that much money for an app that is just being used for hobby.
How many people have installed a copy from their work at home? That's also illegal.

And about "stupid questions", when you are learning something it is possible you ask questions that are silly for an experienced user. If you know everthing then you must be God :rolleyes:

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by MFreywald
Is it just me or does it seem like a LOT of people that are obviously getting copies of Max warezed, are comming here for help? I keep seeing some of the most BASIC questions being asked that anyone with the manual...no, the brains enough to hit F1 could figure out. Maybe I'm just in a bad mood, but it gets a bit rediculous that those with obviously illigitimate copies of Max keep comming here looking for fundamental help in Max...


In this case the problem is not the warez people. The problem is their lazyness that forbids them to use a manual. I know some warez users who can't afford a copy of 3DS Max, but they do want to learn the software so they buy manuals and everything, they don't ask "hey, how can i make a sphere?" :shame:

[Oktavian]

Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
In this case the problem is not the warez people. The problem is their lazyness that forbids them to use a manual. I know some warez users who can't afford a copy of 3DS Max, but they do want to learn the software so they buy manuals and everything...

That hits the nail on the head!

[Bluemilk]

How many people have installed a copy from their work at home? That's also illegal.

Its not if u use that parser key work group thing, you know wen u have to write that number on a floppy. That aint illegal.

Max dont ship with manuals anymore? thats crappy i want to fill up my shelf with manuals i dont read.

http://hem.spray.se/rickard0099/manual.jpg

[jadedchron]

nice markers.

[ThirdEye]

indeed. :)

[andym2001ok]

3 Basic Questions that people with wareazed copies ask:

1) When I installed the .zip file to my directory to unzip the files I cant find the setup icon. All I see is the .rar files. Any help?

2)How do I make a line?

3)How come Discreet wont return my emails or phone calls when I ask them to help me with my 3d Studio Max problem? I gave them my serial code and when they asked me what number it said to call in my manual if I needed customer support and I told them they hung up on me :(

[ThirdEye]

LOL :D

[halo]

the nice thing i thought about max was that little certificate in the box saying "your legally allowed now to be self righteous" :D its soo great...woohoo:bounce:

[clusterfuq]

remeber theres alot of students out there learning 3d at college/uni. 3dsmax is a popular app in education as its quite easy to pick up. (tho we did use autocad till 2 years ago - fun)

[ToddD]

Frankly, I don't care who is using what, but the rampant use of pirated software does cause forums like this to be flooded with senseless questions. I don't think the logic of defending people by saying it's because they are inexperienced users holds water. We were all inexperienced users once, but come on, don't be lazy... read the manual, use search engines. Asking questions is good, but asking questions instead of refering to the manual is not. The same people who seek instant gratification by DL-ing the software, are seeking the same gratification by posting stupid (yes stupid) questions here. Does anyone really believe that posting here, and WAITING for an answer is really a more efficient way to solve your problems than reading the manual? I have answered some of these stupid questions in the past, and of course, after answering 1, the same person will ask a follow up, and another. By answering we are encouraging laziness. If someone has tried and failed, hey that is a different story.
How many times have you gotten a server is busy message while trying to enter this forum? I get it a lot, only to see that noobies have flooded the finshed work section with "oh you are great", "you are my hero" they all want to create amazing work, but they don't want to pay their dues. I doubt the artists they are fawning over have ever posted a "How do I get textures to show in the viewport" in this forum! It's a shame really, because people that actually could gain from the information in this forum, are being short changed.:hmm:

[MFreywald]

THANK YOU Tbonz! You just said exactly what I was trying to come across with. There IS a big difference with trying to do something, checking references and still not getting the result than just comming here (or other forums) and posting a question right off the bat. At least TRY and seek the answer yourself. You know almost every forum has a search feature and 9 out of 10 times what your about to ask has been asked before. Now to make this perfectly clear... I'm not saying ALL questions are stupid, I'm not saying ALL warezed owners of max ask them and I'm not saying ALL the sometimes seemingly fundamental questions asked are automaticly labeled as warezed. What I AM saying is it's sometimes blatently obvious who just downloaded max yesterday and hasn't even hit F1 by accident yet.

[edaddy]

hmm yea i can see everyone's point here - but i remember a time when i was so confused by max that i'm sure i asked a few stupid questions to instructors/friends... we all have at some point ... now i'm not argueing for the other side here, b/c i agree w/ what has been said so far(especially the 2 above me) - but we need to make it clear that THERE IS A NEWB THREAD AT THE TOP OF THIS PAGE, AND THAT SHOULD BE THE PLACE TO GO W/ QUESTIONS FIRST ....... if no one who frequents that thread can answer, then posting a new thread is understandable

[Aggro - Thingy]

Originally posted by MFreywald
Is it just me or does it seem like a LOT of people that are obviously getting copies of Max warezed, are comming here for help? I keep seeing some of the most BASIC questions being asked that anyone with the manual...no, the brains enough to hit F1 could figure out. Maybe I'm just in a bad mood, but it gets a bit rediculous that those with obviously illigitimate copies of Max keep comming here looking for fundamental help in Max...

my favorite is the fact that discreet will send you a full (demo, yep, the only difference isa the liscence) copy with pdf manuals, tutorials and help.

[andym2001ok]

When we have to remind people that there is a manual with Max, it does have to make one suspicious correct? I mean a lot of times the first thing I do when I get something that I spent a lot of money on is look at everything that is inside the box, even the manual because

1) It tells you the instructions to go through the installation
2) IT SAYS THAT THERE ARE MANY TUTS AND HELP!!!

I mean honestly, if someone that is using Max says that they havent realized or have yet to look through the manual and fine some stuff than they are definalty piraters. It does kind of get me upset sometimes because it took me about 3 years to save up for Max 4 (I was actually saving for Max 3 but Max 4 came out). Anyway, I was so happy when I got Max and I practiced really hard at it to try to get some buisness once I got decent. Then I see all these people with warezed versions come in looking for buisness and they end up getting it over people who have strived to legally buy Max! It pisses me off because its like, "I didnt have to work to get this copy but Im going to use it to make money for myself" if you know what i mean. I really just dont understand all this. Its not only frustrating to see but its ridiculous to see the amound of people that come in trying to make us believe that they have a legal copy when they are obviously lying.

Like someone said in this post before...(It went something like)

"They give us stupid questions...we give them stupid answers"
and its simple as that. Thank You for reading this semi-long reply.

-Andy

[Sokowa]

I remember buying Max 3.1 and CS3 for $1,000.00. I went through www.journeyed. I thought that was pretty darn good. It was the full version. The only difference was that it was for educational purposes only.

[Egyt]

Sokowa is the student licence version up tp date? When I was looking to purchase max a while ago, max 4 was released. And they claimed that only max 3 was available to students.

Last year I worked 07:00-16:00 and 17:00-01:00 for a time to be able to make my way into the university, guess what, didnt work out to good ;). After getting myself into the uni with financial aid and working night shifts while studying, I really wanted to keep on learning modelling. No job = no money, no money = no 3dsmax... so well I got to work to get money, but I ended up getting no sleep, failing exams.

So I guess I should give up my dream 3d modelling, just like that.

"It pisses me off because its like, "I didnt have to work to get this copy but Im going to use it to make money for myself"" - andym2001ok

[Sokowa]

Well I don't know if they have current stuff anymore.
When I bought 3.1 it WAS the most up to date version.

[Jed Ike]

Studica has the educational version of max five for $460 USD. It's the full version.

[Joel Hooks]

"So I guess I should give up my dream 3d modelling, just like that."

If wings3d wasn't available for FREE and a better modeller than Max, you may have some sort of point there, but as it stands you can pursue your dream without spending a single penny or feeling guilty.

[Egyt]

lowdown the classes I attended used max, i guess I didnt thought about trying to learn a differend interface at that time, tbh I just found out about wings3d a couple of days ago and have already d/l'ed it and will soon give it a serious chance.

[Giant]

I agree with you all on what you have said.

That being said tho, there is mad stuff on this site. The quality of the work here is excellent. And that is why I like coming here now. I have been using other forums for Max questions, and yes I do own a legal copy of Max 5.1 and Character Studio 4.
However, I am just starting here on CGTalk, and I do have some questions. I don't want to feel paranoid that I won't be able to ask questions because I have like 10 posts in my avatar.

But overall I agree with you...use the help files, especially for Max Script. Those are some of the best help files around!

nice to meet you all...and thank you for the honesty and great work...

peace

Giant

[MFreywald]

Please, dont misunderstand the point I was trying to make. Dont EVER be afraid of asking questions here. The only stupid question is a question unasked. I was just trying to say how rediculous it is that people come to forums and ask the most fundamental questions without ever even trying to find the answer themself.

[Gonzo The Great]

:p

TAKE IT IS ON US, GUYS!!!

I'm trying to make a Teapot but there is NO step-by-step Tutorial on how this can be done.

[NanoGator]

I'll tell you all something: I have access to 3D Studio MAX legitimately. My company has a few copies laying around because years ago they wrote plugins for it. The manuals are long gone, presumably lost when we moved. If I came on here with a question about MAX and was told "RTFM", I'd be discouraged at the helpfulness of this palce. If I were accused of using a warez copy, I'd be furious.

I just wanted to make that point. I'm not arguing with anybody's post in particular. It isn't helpful to make oppressive attempts to swat warez users away, especially when you don't really know if they are or not. What you SHOULD be thinking about is building the community. I mean seriously, what's the worst case scenario with somebody using a pirated copy of MAX? That somebody gets a job using it causing the company to buy a seat of it? Yeah, that'd really hurt Discreet. :rolleyes:

It shouldn't be an issue here, especially when the cost is denying help to somebody who really is legit.

[Joel Hooks]

Nano > Max's Online help is excellent. I think the gripe is when somebody asks a ridiculously vague questions without showing any effort whatsoever and just asking on 1-5 different forums. pirate or not....

[NanoGator]

Originally posted by lowdown
Nano > Max's Online help is excellent. I think the gripe is when somebody asks a ridiculously vague questions without showing any effort whatsoever and just asking on 1-5 different forums. pirate or not....

I can understand that. I've been there. Heck, just the other day I gave a guy instructions on how to turn off ambient light in Lightwave. My point, though, was that it doesn't have to be warez to be an issue. Believe me, I know the pain when people don't appear willing to help themselves.

While we're on that topic, though, I'd mention that moving from one program to another can cause this problem as well. Let's say somebody's going from Lightwave to MAX. (Note: I'm not up to date on how Max works, so please don't use my example literally) In Lightwave, you create a light, and then you can change it to whatever type of light you want. In MAX, you create the type of light you want and.. well that's it, you don't change it. Imagine that user coming across this. He'd probably be looking all over the interface to figure out what to do to change this mode of light (again, I'm not sure if that's impossible in MAX or not, just remembering my own experience with 2.5) and not even think to just create the new light.

See my point? There's lots of legitimate reasons that somebody might ask the most basic of questions. It's not worth getting broiling mad over. If anything, providing a litlte insight into how it works can really make that user see the app in a whole new light.

[Bobo]

Originally posted by NanoGator
While we're on that topic, though, I'd mention that moving from one program to another can cause this problem as well. Let's say somebody's going from Lightwave to MAX. (Note: I'm not up to date on how Max works, so please don't use my example literally)



Just to fill in the information hole, you can change the light type from a drop-down list in the Modify panel since Max 3.0.

But you are right, some basic steps can be pretty different in different apps.

[Bobo]

Originally posted by Giant
...use the help files, especially for Max Script. Those are some of the best help files around!


:bounce:
You make my heart sing!

[kpalazov]

:shame: :shame: :shame: :shame:

Its a real shame this question was even brought up:(
In the end of thr road this is a dicussion is about the availablity and access to information . What does it bother you if someone asks a beginners question , ignore it and move along with your life:(
Second you can't expect everyone one to be, 1 computer literate and 2 3d application literate.You have no idea! the surcamstances and or condition underwich these people are asking question, how can you deny them an answer and further how can you judge they deserve one or not.
To say the truth is very said:(

BTW I don't use max

:shame:

[jadedchron]

Beginner questions clutter the bored, annoy the world, and aggrivate people - IF those beginner questions are something that could be answered by opening the help file once. Is there something wrong with newbie questions? obviously not. Is there something wrong with someone who can't take 3 seconds to look for the answer themselves? yes.

[yog]

After seeing the legitimacy of poster's questioned when they ask very basic questions, I adopted a policy for when I need to post a basic question (although not new to 3D, I'm slowly learning MAX as a second app) . As well as posting the question I try to include a brief description of what I have previously attempted to solve the problem.

This serves two aims, first it shows people I have at least made an attempt (and so hopefully they will be more inclined to help), and second it eliminates some of the suggestions that might not produce the required result.

I can still remember what it was like to be a beginer, so I have no problem helping out where I can, but I still think a person stands a better chance of getting an informative answer if they are clear in their request and show willing to help themselves.
My favourite recient post I saw was .... "I can't get the bones in my character to work right, can anybody tell me what I'm doing wrong ?"

[jadedchron]

exactly.

[cptvideo]

Originally posted by MFreywald
.... Dont EVER be afraid of asking questions here. Actually - if you're a newbie or can't find any way to get your questions answered, don't be afraid of asking. If you're using warezed goods, don't ask on any public forum like CGTalk.

Getting caught with warezed copies is no fun. Software vendors pursue piracy when they can and spots like CGTalk are monitored regularly (autodesk's anti-piracy dept is notorious). The damage to your reputation is real and can have lasting effects, making it so that you can't get into betas and even making it difficult to score jobs in the future.

It's a lot like the common-sense rules of masturbation: If you have to masturbate, then do so for your own pleasure -- not for profit... not to try and be popular, etc. Please don't masturbate in public and please don't share with friends (people that want to masturbate with you aren't real friends). It's best not to risk your career or your company's reputation by masturbating at work, and please, please, please don't ask *me* for help with any problems that come up. :)

[AJ]

Originally posted by cptvideo
If you have to masturbate, then do so for your own pleasure -- not for profit...

Profit...


:surprised





...



:surprised

[jadedchron]

hehe that mast. b'n analogy was pretty dumb ;)

[MFreywald]

How can I masterbate for profit? Sounds lucrative and god knows I could use the funds :P

[Reality3D]

Alert Alert, perverted guys at splutterfish :D

[Paul L. Ming]

Hiya.

I can understand being annoyed at "basic questions cluttering up the board". But, honestly, help is the main focus of these boards. If someone asks "How do I create a background picture for my model? I want to use it as a 'template' thing that I can trace around." ...that doesn't mean he hasn't read the manual. It probably means that he is really new and doesn't realise he's talking about a "rotoscope". If he doesn't know what it's called, he doesnt' know what to look for in the manual in the first place. Admitedly, some questions boggle the mind ("How do I create a Light?") :surprised:

My suggestion to those who are suspect of the person reading the manual or not....just give them a "page number" to find the answer on. Or, in a Help file format, where to look.

Ex: "You are looking for a 'Rotoscope'. Check here:F1-->Contents-->Viewing & Navigating 3d Space-->View Handling Commands-->Viewport Backgound"

Quick, simple and gives them lots of info. Might even peak their learning interest and get them to read the manual a bit more. :) Works for me...I always find myself clicking on other links and reading, reading, reading... ;)


Anyway, with regards to the whole warez thing...it's been done to death already. Folks who use it at home for 'screwing around', fine. Students who are living with 4 other guys in a 1 bedroom apartment and only eat Kraft Dinner for 2 years, fine. People who have the means to buy it, but hunt for a 'free version' first...should be in jail.

[BartW]

Originally posted by jadedchron
Is there something wrong with newbie questions? obviously not. Is there something wrong with someone who can't take 3 seconds to look for the answer themselves? yes.

True, but that doesn't justify some people's habit of putting someone down for not having the same ammount knowledge or experience.

That habit obviously originates from a huge inferiority complex and disrespect for other people - not just on a forum, but probably too in real life. I've seen it happen at university many times. People who never asked questions among large groups of people were always the first ones to frown upon or laugh at other people's questions.

Wisdom and kindness are not related to skill or experience.

But lucky enough, sofar this forum has been much friendlier and forgiving than most other places on the net :thumbsup:


PS am I the only one who's too busy to care about other people using illegal copies or not ?

[edaddy]

People who never asked questions among large groups of people were always the first ones to frown upon or laugh at other people's questions.

i went to school with someone like that --- and i'm not sure he ever graduated since i never saw him, or his reel, the last quarter

[jadedchron]

True, but that doesn't justify some people's habit of putting someone down for not having the same ammount knowledge or experience.

I don't believe I said that. People who don't even make an attempt to look *ANYWHERE* do not deserve to be answered or have the priviledge to ask a question. there's a huge difference between that person and someone who has looked at the manual/f1 - which is common sense. there's no need to point out parts in the help file if they're beginners. in that case they should be looking at the manual.

[EricChadwick]

My apologies if this has already been posted...

How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.linuxsilo.net/docs/smart-questions-en.html

[jadedchron]

" It sometimes looks like we're reflexively rude to newbies and the ignorant. But this isn't really true.

What we are, unapologetically, is hostile to people who seem to be unwilling to think or do their own homework before asking questions. People like that are time sinks -- they take without giving back, they waste time we could have spent on another question more interesting and another person more worthy of an answer. We call people like this "losers" (and for historical reasons we sometimes spell it "lusers")."

word.

[BartW]

Originally posted by jadedchron
I don't believe I said that.

Sorry Jade.....I didn't really had anyone on this forum in mind, honest ! :) You're completely right about people not taking any time to look around, and just want *their* question to be answered a.s.a.p and never help others, etc. Completely true.

In fact, I can count the times I used 'RTFM'.....but I stopped using it cause people often replied 'What does RTFM mean?' ;)

Anyway, was trying to say that this forum is a nice place with lots of friendly, intelligent and helpful people who don't mind sharing their experience. Very unique I'm afraid :) I just hope that we don't start hunting these boards for people who use warez by only looking at the guys who ask beginners stuff. That's all :)

Have fun!

[jadedchron]

amen :beer:

[SEPHROTH64]

Well it usually works out though... they ask stupid questions, we give stupid answers. :p
like the brilliant people of radioshack

[kachoudas]

Hello, Just to add my point

- I do believe that the pirated copy can be found with the F1 help file. I do suspect that the chm files can be found easily on emule or stuff like that. So I do not think piracy is the problem when people ask stupid questions.

- but as a teacher, I very often how reticent some people are about just reading anything. I usually try to explain them how to use the help file to some profit, but they just don't get it. I can't understand why... I mean, my students are high-level, they know how to read and suceeded in diplomas which involved text analysis. And their final diploma include a theorical thesis which they usually succeed... so what ?

It may be due to the way the help is being written : for the people who already know Max and want additionnal details :
Try looking for "changing light type" in the help. the search function will give you an hundred answer, most of them not beig relevant. One get lost very fast.
Try following the arborescence.... you go to light and camera... then lights..then light type... you get the desription of light type... but how the hell do you change them ?

Of course, you won't go to the "common light rollout/general lightning" where is the solution : if you knew that, you would have never asked in the first place, would you ?

I believe that before being impatient with newbies, one could try to remember that they are... uh, newbies, that what they are. this software can be very intimidating for people who still don't get enough self confidence. And I sure won't blame students and beginners for not being the computer nerd that I was when I was their age... ;)

Jerome

[Kanga]

Hmmmmmmmmm,........

I just bought a copy of z-brush because I believe the combination with 3dmax will revolutionize the gaming (and animation) industry. But learning ANOTHER app has bought crashing home the dilema of missing that one setting.

3dmax has exhaustive info and the tutorials are about the best I have seen on any program yet not to mention the F1 help. Also the max forum here is the best rescourse I have encountered so far.

Someone alikened the z-brush GUI to the console on a Boeing, if that is so then I would say that the GUI from max could be alikened to that of a Mirage.

Sometimes you search and search, miss that one knob that can blow your whole day to bits, but it's nice to know when your back is to the wall there is somewhere you can go:thumbsup:.

[thorn3d]

I'd say that over the past few months the value of CG Talk has gradually gone downhill. The bulk of the posts here used to be obviously from a knowledgeable person seeking guidance with a valid problem. Nowadays, you're most likely to see the same stupid questions over and over...

- How can i make fur/hair?
- Can someone show me a tutorial on X? (And when 3-4 are suggested, the poster declares those aren't to their liking)
- Should i model using splines, polys, or nurbs?
- How do i recreate (insert effect from latest movie blockbuster that took the original team 5 people over 6 weeks)
- How do i use (feature that is clearly explained in the docs)
- Where can i find meshtools / should i use meshtools / what IS meshtools?

It's tiresome. At one time CG Talk was one of the few forums that had a high signal-to-noise ratio, but over time it's sliding down to the lowest common denominator that most other forums cater to.

thorn

[PEN]

Best thing to do is stop answering the questions that have obvious answers in the help. Just say RTFM.

I like answering questions that are not covered or can be done in many ways but most of it can just be learned from opening the tuts and doing them. I know they are good as I have written some of them:)

I skip allot of posts because of just how stupid the question is, well I shouldn't say stupid, how about uneducated. I taught for 7 years and I found that the majority of students are used to being spoon fed by the high school system and just don't want to do the work that it takes to learn packages like Max, Maya, SXI, Lightwave and many others. Drives me nuts because I am completely self taught.

I don't mind when raw beginners come by and ask questions about where to find tuts and information. I think that is a good thing as long as they go and do the tuts and come back with intelligent question about what they are trying to do.

[Wizdoc]

Sadly, pirating has little do with this kind of trouble. It would be easy to point a finger to the pirates and simply categorize the problem with them. But, as it's been said, the pirated copies are like the originals, manuals and help files included. So while I don't condone piracy, I also don't see them as the main contributor - although the easy access to expensive software does lower the level of entry (money is always a good way to weed out the "Sunday Spielbergs").

The real problem is human laziness.

The kind of people who want to coast through everything. The kind of people who rather call their "tech wiz" son-in-law to program a VCR when it's blinking midnight rather than actually bother to read the manual and do it themselves. Or they download a term paper off the Internet when they don't want to actually strain themselves by doing the actual strenuous research and writing. These people can be found in all departments of life, including art classes - using legitimate copies of software - sitting around and looking dumb, hoping to stumble into that mythical "Create Art" button and not actually bother to do things the hard way.

And when they can't, they resort to the next best thing, crying and whining for easy answers. "Help me, how can I make k00l explosions just like in Independence Day, include a step-by-step tutorial plz!" or "where can I download a fully rigged and textured dinosaur model?" or just simply, "tell me in two easy sentences, how can I make sphere, a spline or a photorealistic feature film like Final Fantasy, I looked at the help file but it was too much text, k thx!"

It is sad, really. The tutorials and the helps in Max are one the best material I have ever read. Completing and understanding them will make the user at least moderately proficient with the program. The artist might not be instantly create works of breathtaking art but at least the tools will not be the obstacle, and if in some cases are, then at least the artist has enough knowledge of the software to overcome them using various workarounds. Of course, all it takes is effort and perseverence.

Something a lot of people unfortunately don't have.

[JeroenDStout]

:shrug: There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.

Oh, and lazy people too.

Ah well... just see it on a case-to-case buissiness. If a person says: "HEeey U Guys I'm a n000b ROFFLLLL - how do you mAKE a CUBE?" then I won't awsner (not without sarcasm, anyway), but if someones askes: "I know it sounds kind-of dim, but I have trouble with lights, I'm trying to:..." then I will :)... unless it a stupid questions after all.

[decembermoon]

i think if it was the most stupid question on earth , or i don't have the manual how do i ...?
i'll always try to help.

[mvunderground]

Well I am self taught hobbyist. I have found cgtalk to be the best resource for learning tips and tricks from some of the best 3d/2d artist in the world. Without this site there is no way I would ever have the chance as a novice to get crits from these great artist or watch a WIP and go " damm that is how he did that".



I know some people are lazy and even I will read through the forum and think "damm dude just go find a tut and try it, have you ever heard of google?", but at the same time some people just have a hard time grasping the concept till the right words are said in a way they can understand.. I even try to help where I can. You never know but you might learn something from trying to help or just watching some of the other styles. I have seen 12 and 13 year olds who do 3D work that will blow your mind. And This site is definitely a helping factor for them.



I am grateful for all the artist here who do try and help. It is better than all the books I have bought. Trial and error are always the best way to learn something IMO and cgtalk has given me a chance to "pick the brain" of some of the best.



Ohh and I only have a edu version of max :)



But back in 98 a warez version r2.5 is what got me hooked :) but even that had all the help files with it.

[Cryptite]

But how DO you make a line in max???http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif

[decembermoon]

(( But how DO you make a line in max??? ))
this is not the most stupid question on earth :p

[lithik]

Someone should edit all those pics that say...

"Use Google before asking stupid questions"

...and put "Press F1 before asking stupid questions"

:P i win

[Cryptite]

Hmmm, lam, i wonder what is the stupidest question ever...:D

[decembermoon]

((Hmmm, lam, i wonder what is the stupidest question ever ))
how DO you make a line in max??

i'll tell you something , maybe 3 or 4 month ago i decided to try houdini , sidefx were making something like an exp or demo can't recall the name now , anyway for more than 20 minutes i couldn't put a cube in the viewport , i really wanted to ask someone about that , i didn't but just imagine such a question in houdini forum ?

[decembermoon]

one more thing , two days ago someone was asking for help for lighting a room , may be not as how i draw a line but when you get answers from a guy like Neil Blevins i think it is the same , he could simpley ignor it , but at least he bothered and make a tutorial , so i'm not talking about the warez part , just the helping part.
anyway check his tutorial here :
http://www.neilblevins.com/cg_education/specular_bloom/specular_bloom.htm

[ivo D]

the whole 3d buisness runs on people who use illigal versions of max maya lightwave etc.

that is how they, and also i, get to know the software, the companys pay for the software.. we come in with the knowlidge.


the thing your pointing at is just the same thing as the music industie says.. so many people are downloading music.. we miss X profit. that is bull.. we download music we normally wouldnt get, or want to listen to at the first place.. but when we start to like it, we do go to concerts buy stuff etc..

same with 3d.. when you like it, you do buy some books, or contribute in another way, such as.. Helping people out who do have stupid questions.

there are really a lot of people who dont know that there is a very good help file under f1.

you must know, max probably has the best.. most other programs dont tell *** in there manual, just things without pictures, and than you still have to read 99 pages to get to know one thing you where searching for.

[Icestar]

I'm stunned, honestly stunned, as to how many people are whinging about questions being posted about x,y,z and such etc and then they blame it on warez users for flooding this forum. They wouldn't be flooding the forum with stupid questions if you guys weren't helping them in the first place. Simple solution mates and basic logic. They dont get help here, they'll move on elsewhere, or they'll get off their butts and try and find the answer. You're only contributing to what is obviously bothering you. Simple as that. I'm not saying dont help anyone at all. What I'm saying is if you feel like someone is asking a fundamental question and it bothers you because you think a,b,c, then ignore it and dont answer. Problem solved. Happy days!

[Autarkis]

Icestart, the thing is that from time to times there are users like me who feel nice enough to help people who OBVIOUSLY should not be using 3d studio max or any other program. That also encourages them to keep on posting idiotic questions.

*sighs* I should stop doing that.

I also noticed a post on this thread saying the overall quality of cgtalk has gone down over the past few months, and that's definitely true. I havent stopped here for a while (class work, projects, personal projects, girlfriend ... all taking over my spare time) but I see a lot of questions that shouldn't be asked in what is supposed to be a PROfessional forum.

However, I do know that most of the users here, myself included, are either students in computer graphics (my chosen path) or hobbyists. I often come here to see different solutions to how I would work around a problem in max, to gain insight to what people in the industry use and their chosen methods in modeling, animation, texturing and lighting. I would miss it terribly if those people left (i dont see it happening, but yeah....)

Mods should really post, what my first 3DS instructor told me " Studio Max has the most comprehensive help file available. Just look up everything there, and if you have any questions when that's done, ask me."
It's a great way of doing things. Max really does have an awesome manual (although I would love for it to be shipped with a hardcover manual like the older versions, but i guess it would be too costly due to the sheer size of the thing.)

Give them a warning, maybe create a group of users that the enforcement people could put them in, with restricted posting or something. It would help them understand that this is not a forum to learn how to use a program, even more so if you got it off peer2peer services.


So that was my rant, and i'm off to answer stupid newbies questions ;), see you all at siggraph for those who are going! :)

[ivo D]

i think, that the forums didnt got worse or anything like that, its when and where you look.. and its summer.. many people start hobbying this time, more vacation etc.

but it would be nice to have a noob forum. a forum for all simples questions, with a big search button on top.. fr the once who keep forgetting using search.

this all will pass, i think a lot of people are starting 3d caus of the big cg movies coming out the whole time, people get more and more sucked into it, with all the making ofs with all the 3d making of special fx in it and all that..

i will just help people.. even if its a stupid question.ill just say to look there X or there X next time first, but its costs me so little time to reply, and thats what make the community good, i hate threads where no in has posted on, and than when i look its jsut because some new 3d guy/girls started his first head and asks for pointers for example.

aahh well , it will all turn out just fine.. i love cgtalk :D

[pearl3d]

anyway u can find through net a lot of video tutorials and books for max, maya and other programs.........dont need to buy books

[FreakyDude]

There ussually is an answer in the help files, and if there is not, then somebody at school knows. Other than that, you can often find answers on the internet. I ask at forums every now and then if I can't find what it is I am looking for an extensive amount of time. Don't be so picky. There's plenty of people who actually want to learn and make a valuable addition to the community.

[f97ao]

I think you guys are too hard here, but then again I'm new on this forum so what do I "know". Yes, the pirate questions are very very lame and makes me mad, they should not exist. Along the lines "I'm haxxor leet, gimme a way to do Matrix".

But many of the things you are mentioning, are not easy at all in the beginning. Creating a ball that explodes in flames, may in fact be extremely much fun in the beginning, and it isn't that easy. When I learned max1 the help was total crap, there were few tutorials and interned didn't have that much. Let alone there were no books at all. Fortunately now the tutorials with max are very good and there are many tutorials on the net. However finding them is not always so easy. How long do you expect that people should try before asking, "how do I make the water transparent and reflective at the time, I have added xxx but nothing happens". Should they:

- read all max manuals or most of it. Isn't it around 2000 pages or so?
- Search the net for several hours, easily possible
- search different forums, easy to miss things, even if they are there.
- of course try alot of different things

That sounds like 5-20 hours job to me (reading all manuals excluded).
If one asks a simple question on a forum, then the answer can be given sometimes in 5 minutes. "Just check .... it's easy to miss, then you will have transparent materials show in viewport etc"

Personally I like to ask fairly many questions, I would say I usually try 30-120 minutes before asking a semi-easy question. And I don't always agree that the searching and reading is super great since you learn a ton, often it can be a true waste of time.

I have only been here a few days on the forums, but i read alot of "Why do we have that many stupid questions, I wish there was a n00b section, why don't you search instead? etc" and I don't think this is an impressive thing. Yes, perhaps if this board is only intended for experienced graphic artists, then it makes sense. But if we want to welcome fairly new 3d artist, perhaps those taking the plunge from 2d, then I think we should be more approaching, but I agree that the warez users should be possible banned or similar.

Just my 2 cents.

/Andreas

[Bracer]

End This Thread.

Its Meaningless.

[Gary2]

I think you guys are too hard here, but then again I'm new on this forum so what do I "know". Yes, the pirate questions are very very lame and makes me mad, they should not exist. Along the lines "I'm haxxor leet, gimme a way to do Matrix".

But many of the things you are mentioning, are not easy at all in the beginning. Creating a ball that explodes in flames, may in fact be extremely much fun in the beginning, and it isn't that easy. When I learned max1 the help was total crap, there were few tutorials and interned didn't have that much. Let alone there were no books at all. Fortunately now the tutorials with max are very good and there are many tutorials on the net. However finding them is not always so easy. How long do you expect that people should try before asking, "how do I make the water transparent and reflective at the time, I have added xxx but nothing happens". Should they:

- read all max manuals or most of it. Isn't it around 2000 pages or so?
- Search the net for several hours, easily possible
- search different forums, easy to miss things, even if they are there.
- of course try alot of different things

That sounds like 5-20 hours job to me (reading all manuals excluded).
If one asks a simple question on a forum, then the answer can be given sometimes in 5 minutes. "Just check .... it's easy to miss, then you will have transparent materials show in viewport etc"

Personally I like to ask fairly many questions, I would say I usually try 30-120 minutes before asking a semi-easy question. And I don't always agree that the searching and reading is super great since you learn a ton, often it can be a true waste of time.

I have only been here a few days on the forums, but i read alot of "Why do we have that many stupid questions, I wish there was a n00b section, why don't you search instead? etc" and I don't think this is an impressive thing. Yes, perhaps if this board is only intended for experienced graphic artists, then it makes sense. But if we want to welcome fairly new 3d artist, perhaps those taking the plunge from 2d, then I think we should be more approaching, but I agree that the warez users should be possible banned or similar.

Just my 2 cents.

/Andreas
u share my exact opinion regarding questions being answered my friend:thumbsup:

[Cyberdigitus]

I guess if Discreet would release a PLE version of 3ds max (or update gmax more often), there would be much less warez copies used, since it's a public secret many of even the professional users once learned the software that way.

Just look at XSI , Maya or even Houdini. Ok, Maya pe is'n maybe a good example, but if you go get a game for instance, and the software is right there in the box, a lot less people will download a copy to be able to mod it, or in the case of houdini, which has the whole thing available with a minimal watermark, you'd be mad to get a warezed copy of that if you seriously want to learn it.

next to that, given the current market situation, discreet better look into segmenting thier product offer. I guess that might be part of the Evolution thing going on...

[thorn3d]

Yes, perhaps if this board is only intended for experienced graphic artists, then it makes sense. But if we want to welcome fairly new 3d artist

I don't mind welcoming a new artist.

I have no desire to welcome a lazy person... nor someone just randomly pressing buttons because the idea of "let's play 3D Artist" amuses them.

They should hang out on renderosity, or let them start their own forum. CG Talk was started as a forum for PROFESSIONALS, and if new users cannot respect that climate and be considerate of it and our time - don't come here.

Does that mean don't ask questions? Of course not. Everyone has questions. But don't be lazy. Do research, do forum searches, use google, use the manual. Your FIRST step in figuring out a problem should be trying to solve the problem on your own - NOT hitting a forum to ask for help.

thorn

[danne82]

I guess if Discreet would release a PLE version of 3ds max (or update gmax more often), there would be much less warez copies used, since it's a public secret many of even the professional users once learned the software that way.Well I guess they should lower prices on cars that would make thieves steal less and perhaps buy instead. So a high price on a products gives a person the rights to steal it?

So if I can´t afford a luxuary car I should go out, steal one, blame them for having high prices?

and if you think how low the prices are for a studentversion of max alot of people should be able to buy that version. Also you have viz which is half the price of max.

[design721]

Viz is half the price of Max, but twice what any of the competition is.

I do have a gripe with the cost formula. If they did care about the warez, which imo they actively encourage it (as the head of Discreet famously was quoted as saying 'better they are using our software than a competitors'), they would price Max competitively to compete at the low end, as EVERY other manufacturer has done. Discreet will lose, as many of us don't encourage warez use (Max cost a lot, and I can't say I am happy about paying more to be 'current', with their ridiculous no-downsaving), if they continue on this route for another year.

I do not encourage warez use, but to just shake a finger at it will do nothing. $800 is outrageous for a student, especially when most schools have warezed programs running on their computers (TOP state schools, in my experience), as do many companies. They can now get Softimage for $600, Cinema 4D for $700, FormZ for not much more, and the PLE versions. Those are full professional versions that they can take to the real world.

Discreet needs to wake up if they want to continue to dominate the market. I'll probably fork over my cash, eventually, just because I already know Max (and paid for Final Render, which was worth it), but when it comes to buying copies for my employees, I'll have to reconsider the long term and overall cost.

[f97ao]

I don't mind welcoming a new artist.

I have no desire to welcome a lazy person... nor someone just randomly pressing buttons because the idea of "let's play 3D Artist" amuses them.

They should hang out on renderosity, or let them start their own forum. CG Talk was started as a forum for PROFESSIONALS, and if new users cannot respect that climate and be considerate of it and our time - don't come here.

Does that mean don't ask questions? Of course not. Everyone has questions. But don't be lazy. Do research, do forum searches, use google, use the manual. Your FIRST step in figuring out a problem should be trying to solve the problem on your own - NOT hitting a forum to ask for help.

thorn

I agree pretty much with this, but preferes a somewhat softer tool. I have used max since r1 and when I came here I had to sit down and consider, ok...... am I good enough for this forum, it's not like I have created Toy Story or so. And that is perhaps not the best introductory feeling, IMHO.
/Andreas

[Kanga]

I think if you get warned by a mod not to answer someones question because they are a known troll it's a good idea not to.

I answered the dumbest question the other day in the max forum,..... the guy was so thankfull it was really like I made his day. That gave me a good feeling. Maybe he had searched and searched and couldn't find it,.... it's happened to me. I am juggeling about 8 packages at the moment cause I have to and sometimes it's too much input and you can miss small things.

On the educational side I always thought that schools and art academies got free software. Thats alright by me,... the bigger the user base the happier I am!

Greetings Kanga

[Critterslayer]

discreet needs to cater to the newb market. What I mean is that they need fx primitives. For instance, they could have your standard exploding car, crashlanding spaceship, the good ol jet fighter going down in a blaze of fiery inferno, and last but not least, the cataclysimic 7 km wide asteroid crashing into a planet. In fact, better throw in an atomic bomb explosion primitive just to make sure its sill cooler than maya which will no doubt come out with their own fx primitives soon. Basically, one click gets you any effect you could ever need. Newbs would dig it because then the software would truly be everything they currently mistake it to be.

[authentic]

I think if they're wouldn't be any formation if the manual was enough. It's different to have an information from a book or from a real person.
Moreover, i thought the aim of this kind of website was to HELP peaople, to SHARE knowledge with a COMMUNITY. No matter the question came from a beginner or a experiment guy...Nobody had to answer. It's the choice of any one

Maybe I'm an idealist...

[Autarkis]

discreet needs to cater to the newb market. What I mean is that they need fx primitives. For instance, they could have your standard exploding car, crashlanding spaceship, the good ol jet fighter going down in a blaze of fiery inferno, and last but not least, the cataclysimic 7 km wide asteroid crashing into a planet. In fact, better throw in an atomic bomb explosion primitive just to make sure its sill cooler than maya which will no doubt come out with their own fx primitives soon. Basically, one click gets you any effect you could ever need. Newbs would dig it because then the software would truly be everything they currently mistake it to be.


Hm, for some reason, I really hope this was a joke answer. :argh:


At any rate, concerning the student versions and all that. I bought a one year student license for max and it came fairly cheap )less than 200 bucks. Non ending licenses however are extremely expensive (at least for me.)
But yes, as you see the edu versions of XSI and Maya, Discreet should really do something about that!
I do believe that I was hearing an EXTREMELY low pricing for max educationnal license at Siggraph this year, and I really hope it's going to be realized in october when max 7 comes out. Been hunting for news about it but nothing came up.
Blah. At least I can dream! :)

[Critterslayer]

Hm, for some reason, I really hope this was a joke answer.

Hm, I really hope you didn't think I was that stupid to be serious

[Autarkis]

I really hope that you werent stupid enough to think that I was stupid enough to think that you were stupid enough to post something like that. Err... Right :D

(but anyway, to be truthful I know there are people that wishes it happened that way ;) )

[Critterslayer]

I really hope that you werent stupid enough to think that I was stupid enough to think that you were stupid enough to post something like that. Err... Right :D

(but anyway, to be truthful I know there are people that wishes it happened that way ;) )

yep, most definately, a lot of them probably think thats how its done haha

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