Map Table WIP

[dobermunk]

.. .and wax drops and cup stains and...
and BLOOD.
Nah. scratch the blood.

Looking great. Like the new Handle decor....
Will look great with grunge.

[Dann-O]

Looks good I think think some marks from recent sharpening on the sword and daggers would be cool. I like it love the candle but that is one of the things messiah does great translucency.

[Labuzz]

Why not add an "ambient" light ( dark blue/green) ? This will give you more hue variations (cold/Warm) and a way to make the candles ( more contrast and falloff ) stand out more...It s very uniform at the moment.
A more rough wood would be welcome I think...More contrast between materials is always good.
Try to have a shot where you have one edge or a corner of the table...more depth and solid look.
The metal needs some work too.
Good start.

[stooch]

captain! we need more contrast.

and more color. its a bit gray and washed out right now. and a stronger key light for sure. (key LIGHTS in your case since you have all those candles)

all should also reflect in the objects so you might want to make HDR range flames on the candles to really get caught in all the reflective surfaces.

looks good. and yeah i agree that the weapons/items should look used. a nice clamped noise displacement/bump map would work nicely

the light sources should be at the candles, high intensity with falloff, im not seeing some shadows where i expect to see shadows... as far as ambient kind of light, that should be kept at a minimum with most of it being bounce light off the table.

[rago]

How about some anisotropic reflections on the weapons, they look as if they've never been used!
The cups are reflecting too much for my taste, but that's maybe the look you wanted to get.
And the map needs to be more warn as well, but you're probably waiting for the definitive one.
Over all I like the fealing of it!

Roberto.

[DaveW]

The shiny stuff doesn't seem to be reflecting the candle flames, and maybe the lights should be a bit more orange?

Are you going to be animating any of those orcs, elves, and other fun stuff? Sounds like a fun project either way.

[MoodyB]

I guess I could burn/stain the edges of the map a little.


That would help, as would shearing / distorting the shape of the map mesh a bit more, mainly to affect its outline shape. It looks a little too rectangular as it is.


Anything else? What do you think so far?


I like the desaturated look and the placement of the objects, but I'll agree with the comments so far regarding stronger lighting from the candles.

The sword blade looks pretty good due to the reflections on it. Adding some scratches wouldn't go amiss though, its' just a bit too ' freshly of the blacksmiths anvil ' perfect.

Top left dagger could do with a few reflections on its metallic parts, like the ones on the swords blade.

Right dagger desperately needs reflections / scratches as it looks like it's made of plastic atm.

Possibly randomise the length of the planks in the table / round a few of the corners / gouge a few edges ? They are a little too uniform at the moment.

Goblets, candleholders ( maybe tighten the highlights a little ) and candlesticks look good so far.

[Wegg]

http://www.eggington.net/%7Ewegg/RenderTests/TableQ.png

Tried to hit on your suggestions. Thank you for those. More contrast in the lighting, different metal etc.

Client didn't want two daggers so I went with something a little more subtle. :scream:

[stooch]

i think you are headed in the right direction, but i feel that there needs to be more of a "hot" feelin fromt he candles with stronger highlights, think about it.

in a dark environment, even the smallest highlight jumps out at you! and i see lots of areas where they would, like the daggers, the chalises etc. i think your wood looks much better but there still needs to be more energy from the candles. just put a real candle down in a dark room and note the intensity in any glass/metal objects placed next to it. in an otherwise dark room you really should eb focusing on highlights.

looking good though.

one suggestion is to use HDRI ranges on flame like shapes that are invisible to camera in order to have them show up in reflections more. of course fresnel and reflection blur and anisotropy is handy here as well.

that sharp, horned looking object on the middle left side is getting lost too, perfect place for highlights to really make it pop.

btw i found that to help highigts pop, you can drive up the diffuse with a fresnel curve as well. not necessarily realistic but does give you an extra bit of control.

[ThomasHelzle]

Hm - most things were said already, but I want to back them up:

- Add a blueish light from the upper right as some kind of moonlight and at the same time make the candle light warmer for that nice, rich two color look.

- Definitely work on all the metals and their reaction to the lights. The reflections in the sword look like wood too. HDRI-objects and incident angle related reflections can help. I am sure those items are magical so maybe give them some sparkling inner life, some supernatural forces to be seen.

- Fake some inner glow/shimmering into the wine.

- Is the table procedural? I don't really like the wood, it could use some more natural flow IMO. In the newtek texture series there are some really good old weathered woods/planks.

- I don't know how the game will look like, but IMO the image so far lacks the richness I would expect from such graphics.

:thumbsup: Great stuff!

Cheers

[Nichod]

One simple thing I'd like to add is dripping wax. The candles all look exactly the same and some dripping wax would help break that up.

[Wegg]

http://www.eggington.net/%7Ewegg/RenderTests/TableS.png

Here it is again with a few of your very helpful suggestions thrown in. If you have any more. . . I'm all ears.

[IRONIC3D]

Hey Wegg,

two things,

1- The Table, it's too clean, yes there are scratches, but that's new wood, actually perfect wood and procedural wood. Here's the thing, with too many scratches, you would think that this table is very aged and the wood would be deformed and stained with dirts and sweat and stuff. right now the textures show perfectness, now knowing this is a war table, and it's hard times, well it should be like one, try to cut away parts, show that's it's not perfectly straight in all the parts, add more grooves and warn out texture look. I've never liked the 3D generated wood, you spend soo much time trying to make it look real while you can just edit an image of a wood and still looks better ;)

2- Lighting. I think you need to add more lighting off the table, what I mean by that, the center of the table is lit, but it looks like the table is the only thing lit in the room. try to add different small light to lit the dark parts on the edge of the table, maybe some specualr only lights on the blades will give that illusion. try using different colors as well, because it adds to the intensity of the scene and if there's a battle outside or not. right now it seems deserted and the battle is over.

Anyway, those are my long comments, I'm going to sleep now and maybe work on my "write short replies" skills :)

Cheers

I3D

[ThomasHelzle]

I would have to repeat my previous message...
Not much improvement yet IMO...

Cheers,

[stooch]

yeah. MORE HIGHLIGHTS!! lol. think bloom or corona in LW.

[fwtep]

My problem with the swords in that last render is that the blades look like bone or something, not metal.

Fred

[stooch]

well i think that its due to insufficient highlights... but yes I share that sentiment, i also got that feeling when i was looking at it.

[fwtep]

well i think that its due to insufficient highlights... but yes I share that sentiment, i also got that feeling when i was looking at it.You got a bone?

Fred

[stooch]

yes a raging one

[Wegg]

http://www.eggington.net/%7Ewegg/RenderTests/TableU.png

Slowly evolving. Thank you for your feedback. Keep it coming. :arteest:

[DMack]

Looking really nice. My two comments - I think the Wax SSS is overdone a little. I don't think the light would penetrate the wax so deeply and cause it to brighten that much. The second is more subtle - the table towards the back is clearly scarred by cuts etc. With the general amount of wear and tear that the table has had, I feel it is taking on the light of the candle too uniformly. I think that a layer of dirt would modulate the reflected light more. As with all imagery, you can go on refining forever (wax pools at the base of the candels don't sit quite right - if it's dripping wouldn't you have more stalactite style formation at the base before it drips) but that is one fine image Wegg.

[ThomasHelzle]

Yeah, the highlights are much better now.

For a richer image, I still would go towards much stronger colored lights and a non-procedural wood for the table (or a much improved one). And don't forget the tiny local lights with falloff in the wine goblets for some inner glow... ;)

Cheers,

[Wegg]

Looking really nice. My two comments - I think the Wax SSS is overdone a little. I don't think the light would penetrate the wax so deeply and cause it to brighten that much.

I have been fighting with exactly that. . . When using Inverse Square falloff on lights you have to crank up their brighness more than you normally would. This in turn messes up the SSS settings. I'm not too worried about it though. I intend to have a much stronger/brighter bloom effect in the final composit so I think the subtle SSS effect will just get washed out.

[Nichod]

Have you tried scaling the light rather than brightening? I'm not sure if Messiah lights truly scale. But that might help rather than increasing the brightness.

Or perhaps use rendergroups and have one light for SSS and one for lighting the table. That way you could scale or increase the brightness of the light and not have to worry about it messing with the SSS.

The bloom effect should be higher up as well. Now its around the actual candle, and not around the flame where it should be. Move it up a little higher if you can.

[stooch]

VERY nice improvement wegg. Your attention to critique is admirable.

may i ask if this is going to be a still or an animation? Because if its a still, you could always go in and apply tweaks in photoshop (nothing wrong with that)

The only thing i would nitpick is the weird square shape on the mace, i know its one of the spikes but the lighting on it is kind of ambiguous so its reading as a square for me...

the mace in general feels like it is neglected in comparison to the rest of the compositon.

[numberEleven]

Hello Wegg.

I read some of the responses to your image, and thought I would mention something.

Thomas mentioned something about dropping the procedural wood look. I hadn't even noticed that it was procedural, and, looking at it, it does seem to be something a graphics proffesional might catch where a casual viewer wouldnt notice.

Im wondering if you might be able to improve the look of your procedural though, by dropping the really dark contrast of the darker waves in the wood. If you could adjust the overall black level thats present there, or bring the black contrast down to more of a subdued level, it might look more realistic.

I think it looks fine now, but, that would be something Id try after what thomas made me think of.

Im wondering how the image would look as if it was rendered in daylight, or day roomlight. Im guessing it might look a little more fake than it does in darkness. It might be fun to render the scene with a group light set to resemble daylight, try and achieve a realistic lighting, with the exclusion of candle light, and then see how luminous and glowing you could make the range of candle light influence with the daylight group switched off.

If it looks real in daylight, it ought to look more real where the candle influence is. You might even need to raise the black level higher overall and then flatten it out with saturation or something to reduce those crisp black waves some.

I like the markings and scarring that the table shows, looks very medieval!

[numberEleven]

Hey, I was wondering about the layout of the image too.

Can you add a candle more towards the upper right off center to show more of the middle of the work?

I guess it would depend on wether the image is intended for like a dvd intro, where the bground might not want to be real intrusive. If it will eventually have buttons or and interface or something ontop, then, drop a slight blur on the whole thing and it might be done.

If its an extended image, you might want to reposition the candles to reveal more of the map. Stylisticaly, I like how the candles are positioned myself, but, in terms of image quality, it might not hurt to moved some of the candle light to reveal the center of this image.

If its an extended shot, and you end up showing off more of that map, maybe roughen the edges up some with a brown, dirty, map. More dirt! lol. Or like, some dirty edges and a wine stain somewhere. Maybe a little trail of faded blood droplets?

Course, Id priority that stuff after the wood look, and once the overall lighting is set.

Again, just ideas to consider.

[dobermunk]

That's what I've been saying all along. Blood! And chunks of flesh, bits of hair...
I mean: who wipes their sword off before they slap it on the table at the tavern?

[Wegg]

http://www.eggington.net/%7Ewegg/RenderTests/TableV.png

Glow Wine. :) And messed with the wood.

[Nichod]

The blooms are better as well. Love the wood. You'll have to share what Darktree shader you used.

The final things in my eyes are to give the mace a little more love. It needs the same sign of use and wear that the sword and daggers have. And to nitpick, maybe some translucency to the map on the edges.

[Wegg]

http://www.eggington.net/%7Ewegg/RenderTests/TableW.pnghttp://72.8.94.156/%7Ewegg/RenderTests/TableW.png
Any other requests?

[stooch]

haah the mace.

[Nichod]

Wegg what are your render settings for this? Monte Carlo? AA?

[kvernon]

Wegg, this is looking really good! A couple of things for me, a few of which have been said.

1. The candles are all generating the same color light brightness, I'd like to see some slight variation.

2. I too feel the light absorbtion from the wax is strong (and currently is the same for each candle). I think there would be small differences or variation with the wax materials on each of the candles.

3. You might want to mix in some other lighting color in the background like a green or blue fill mix. I really think that would help add to the moment/ feeling of what's going on here.

4. dirty up the weapons. The table is truly beautiful. I absolutly love the look of it. And with the table being "weathered" and other object seem to have use as well, I just can't help be continue to see the applied the the weapons. The glasses might need the same as well, or instead of glasses create beer steins. If the people that are reading the map are big brutes, then I can't see them picking up the glass/gobblet to drink from. They need something "manly!"

Thanks for sharing,

Kelly

[ThomasHelzle]

Hm - I don't see any images anymore in the whole thread - is that intentional?

Cheers,

[Nichod]

I still see them. But it could be cached.

[Dann-O]

I have been following this one. Anyways great work.

[numberEleven]

Yeah, im not seeing any images either. Refresh doesnt seem to help.

[Wegg]

Network solutions has a stranglehold on my domain name. Like anyone else is desperate to snag eggington.net. :banghead: I have faxed in the request form I need to get the e-mail address on the account changed over so I can use that to renew my password so I can pay them to renew the domain. Yay!

Edit: My Static IP is still working so you should be able to see the last one at least.

[Geco]

eggington.org is still free...

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