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View Full Version : v6 render options (rant)


xsitar
01-17-2007, 04:17 PM
why did they feel the need to make the render options more complicated than necessary?

it takes now 3 or more steps to do something compared to the previous render options.

for example: i try to render in a format like tiff or tga or sgi. where is the menu? gone.
in xsi5 it was directly on the front panel of render settings, easy to find. not so now...

i can live with the fact that the camera settings have been put on a seperate panel (called scene render options) even though that wasn't necessary as well.

just a little frustrating that it's now required to go through so many steps (render manager) to quickly render out something.

Memodin
01-17-2007, 05:25 PM
xsi 6's new render manager confuses all of us here. We didn't like it (Also we didn't like the new splashscreen).

xsitar
01-17-2007, 06:13 PM
this is more frustrating than i thought. after setting up everything in the rendermanager just to render out a single 4k frame the image is nowhere to find. even though i set up the correct path and file settings.

but unlike previously there's no way of dirrectly accessing the filepath and file-extension.

i can't even find the flibbook preview button that was previously located on the rendering panel just to see if it is somewhere.

what a joke

who ever was responsible for this rendering options overhaul at softimage should be fired.

janimatic
01-17-2007, 07:04 PM
it looks to me that the new render manager is focusing on custom framebuffers.
Just right clic on the main buffer to launch your flipbook/change the path.
The filepath is nicely composed from pass names and such but you can change it if you like.
I like it.

mr Bob
01-17-2007, 08:07 PM
How about build a new render ppg with all your preferred options that could used time and time again !

B

xsitar
01-23-2007, 03:30 PM
edit: nevermind i found it.

halfdan
01-23-2007, 03:59 PM
Does that mean I can keep my job? :)

wurp
01-23-2007, 04:31 PM
the new settings takes some time to get used to, yep, but on the other hand they can save a lot of time too, I like that you can now use variables in the output-name, for example here we name our render-images based on the scene-name, which can now be done in an automatic way, its now also much easier to point all your passes to a new location, before, unless you had a script to do it, you had to go through each pass and change the path manually.

McNistor
01-23-2007, 04:48 PM
i didn't had to work with the new rendering stuff yet. what bothers me a lot in v6 are the countless bugs and it's lack of stability. softimage screwed it this time with this beta release. as a personal taste, i hate the splash-screen... i hate that guy... that exploded orange liquid was so sweet. if they realy wanted to show people that xsi is mainly a character animation package, i'm sure they could find a better splash-screen. i'm also upset about that character-key-sets button... why red&green when grey is so cool? i hope xsi's interface won't transform into a mess like in other 3d apps... i don't give names.
these are only personal opinions and if i offended someone i'm sorry as this is not my intention.
over and out!

ThirdEye
01-23-2007, 04:50 PM
I don't see what a splash screen has to do with anything.

McNistor
01-23-2007, 05:04 PM
I don't see what a splash screen has to do with anything.

it's a matter of taste as i mentioned and i didn't want to open a new thread just to expose my frustrations related with v6. again, i apologise if i ofended smb as i've also said.
peace! :thumbsup:

TimMehmet
01-23-2007, 05:06 PM
I have to be honest I agree with you, I had just got used to the way it was in 5 and I was happy with the way it all worked. But now it just feels unnescarilly tinkerd with, it may just take some time to get used to, but why overhaul something that worked so well anyway?
I dont mind the splash screen.. although it does feel like an ipod advert at times.

JDex
01-23-2007, 05:56 PM
I've spent a little more time the last few days in 6, and I must say that I think that just about everything that they've changed in the app is better and more intuitive... especially the render settings. It's now very easy to manage a multipass setup, compared to the tedium involved previously with 15+ pass scenes. I have continued to see alot of crashes (most to desktop), and could not dupe them... very random failures. I plan to wipe this machine in the next week or so and see if improvements occur, or at least duping the crashes is more realistic.

Our animation team has been exploring it as well, and they're both impressed and dissapointed... soft should be getting a lot of feedback from them in the coming weeks.

Re: Splash Screen

It could be a picture of Jim Carrey coming out of the arse of a robotic rhino with select images from Mind's Eye and Christmas Vaction comped over it in difference mode, and I really wouldn't care... it seems like a pretty trivial thing to get hung up on.

Bullit
01-23-2007, 07:17 PM
Splash screen should be opened to change by the user. Any studio could put their work there as promotion/incentive to the artists.

wurp
01-23-2007, 08:55 PM
thats going a bit far innit, just be thankful softimage didnt put a picture of someones face covered in noodles like a certain other software vendor did.... :)

Splash screen should be opened to change by the user. Any studio could put their work there as promotion/incentive to the artists.

WillBellJr
01-23-2007, 10:04 PM
Well I'll add that this has been the most unstable version I've used since I joined in at v4.2...

I won't even go into how much I hate the Licenser - it just plain SUX in my opinion. I know support is having to go though a lot just because of it too.

But I'm just surprised at the crashing - I've simply drawn a render region and I'll get a crash dialog - a lot of the time v6 will just pop up a saying the scene was successfully saved and XSI will close - then when I restart it, it'll say successfully saved again and so on - I have to forego the saved scene load...

I've never had these problems with v4-5.

Basically as others have said, we're all waiting for an update - then v6 will (hopefully) be back on par as before.

What's funny is I don't like the splash screen either BUT it's not because of the artwork, for me, it's the symbiosis that has formed due to the licenser; I have so much trouble at times getting v6 to start that I actually have to cross my fingers and hope the splash screen will display when I click the XSI icon! Gone are the days of clicking the icon and launching XSI, it's now clicking and HOPING XSI starts!

So would I prefer to see something other than the XSI Jedi Dude when my eyes are extremely dilated hoping to see some sign that XSI will start and that the licenser isn't hosed (yet again) - eff'n AYE!

-Will

Sbowling
01-24-2007, 05:31 AM
Looks like a lot of the complaints about the render region will be addressed in an upcoming patch (according to a post on XSIbase). Apparently they rewrote the entire render region code and some things were left out by accident. Luckily, softimage listens to their customers, unlike some of the companies I've had the displeasure of doing business with in the past. It's really nice to be able to have confidence in a company like this.

I'm curious if all these licensing problems are on all versions of XSI6 or just FND. I'm about to upgrade, but if this is an issue with Essentials, I may wait until after the patch is released.

As for the Splash screen, I did like the old one more, because it was much more colorful and eye catching, but I can life with the new one.

freeschwag
01-24-2007, 07:18 AM
Sbowling,

I'm an Essentials licencee and I've not had near the problems WillBellJr seems
to have had. I've only had one incident where I lost the server and had to
reboot (just trying to restart the server, it would start, then stop in a few
seconds so rebooting fixed it). I've had no crashing with the render region
either.

Granted, I'm a new user and I've not really tried to push anything. Max geometry
at one time has been under 1.5million triangles all with just an ambient occ
lambert. Haven't gotten to anything animation-wise either...but I've not had
real reason to bitch about stability *yet* <shrugs>

cheers.

T4D
01-24-2007, 09:23 AM
I do love the fact that it's a new version and the most common negative comment is
" I HATE THE NEW SPLASH SCREEN " LOL Nice :thumbsup:
( I hate it too,. Why isn't it 3D ..or is it ? :D but I liked the red flower water thing of 5 better )

for me there are more bugs,..:rolleyes:

Layers and bringing passes in from 5.1 has given me Alot of pain
( have sent these issues to support no reply yet .. )

the new render panel is nice,. YES i was lost there, but it has logic,. the more you uses it.

Licencing My Ess I didn't have an issues beside having to wait a hour or so for the Web site to give me a Licence but hey is was the Xmas break.

i think the JOY far out weights the bad, but new bugs are always a worry :sad:

smaug
01-24-2007, 12:31 PM
has anyone managed to save an fgmap to disk?

it looks like it saves the file but actually the fgmap file is found to be nowhere

WillBellJr
01-24-2007, 02:48 PM
Sbowling,

I'm an Essentials licencee and I've not had near the problems WillBellJr seems
to have had. I've only had one incident where I lost the server and had to
reboot (just trying to restart the server, it would start, then stop in a few
seconds so rebooting fixed it). I've had no crashing with the render region
either.

Granted, I'm a new user and I've not really tried to push anything. Max geometry
at one time has been under 1.5million triangles all with just an ambient occ
lambert. Haven't gotten to anything animation-wise either...but I've not had
real reason to bitch about stability *yet* <shrugs>

cheers.

My problems started after I upgraded from FND to ESS v5 FND was sheer perfection for me.

I believe all of my problems are due to the fact my laptop is constantly in flux - I do (besides 3D graphics), video editing / DVD authoring, music authoring etc. I'm constantly plugging in / removing USB drives, sometimes I'll have Lightwave and XSI running (2 dongles), installing / uninstalling software.

Apparently a lot of stuff that knocks out the licenser.

Some examples - when Softimage supplied me with the new licenser files, they worked fine on my desktop at work.

On my laptop at home, I plugged the dongle in my preferred port (2nd on the right side) - went though the process - was still getting the IBU port access error.

For the heck of it, I plugged the dongle into the one port on the left, went though the process again and this time it worked??

Now, the dongle works on both ports but what I don't understand and like is when the dongle is plugged into a different port, it requires the "new hardware found" proceedure where I have to specify what SPM driver to use over and over again.

I understand that usually when a device is placed into a differing USB port the drivers have to reconfigure but for example with my Lightwave dongle, it doesn't ask me for WHAT driver to use it just sets up for the new usb port and continues (and IMO, XSI's dongle/driver should be the same way - why should I have to constantly specify the same driver that's already on my system anyway??)

Just stuff like that - in a word, annoyances...

But yes, I have faith as well that Softimage will resolve the issues - just some growing pains I guess.

-Will

bblevins
01-24-2007, 09:48 PM
Well I'll add that this has been the most unstable version I've used since I joined in at v4.2...

But I'm just surprised at the crashing - I've simply drawn a render region and I'll get a crash dialog - a lot of the time v6 will just pop up a saying the scene was successfully saved and XSI will close - then when I restart it, it'll say successfully saved again and so on - I have to forego the saved scene load...


-Will

I have had this exact thing happen to me numerous times. Predominately when I tweeking shaders and using the render region. I'm using Essentials.

What I've also noticed is that the render region continues to render and XSI is still responsive enough that I can save the scene myself. The auto-save/recover has never worked for me in 6.0

(Like others, I'm also dissappointed with the splash-screen)

-B

janimatic
01-24-2007, 09:53 PM
about the render region bugs..
Sometimes the render region disappear as soon as i draw it.
And looks like the viewport draw another camera when i am drawing the region.
I guess the additon of framebuffers+multiple render region +scene states as issues with index of viewport to use.

kimaldis
01-25-2007, 10:26 AM
I've been working extensively with 6, particularly at the rendering end of it. Although it's different and takes some getting used to, in terms of workflow and logic it's a big step forward. It's more logical, makes more sense and addresses many of the issues that have been problematic in the past. It's very easy to mistake lack of familiarity for wrongness. Go with the flow, take the time to become familiar with it, it's worth it.

I've also found 6 to be pretty stable. Of course, anything new runs the risk of introducing instability but in general I've found it to be pretty good. I certainly haven't been able to make it crash yet.

And anyone who thinks that a splash screen is worth even thinking about, never mind getting worked up about ...... jeez.

bryann
01-25-2007, 11:07 AM
I've had a fair number of crashes (ESS) and only two are reproducible, one being the infinite "recover scene" loop after a crash if you dare click yes. The other one I have is that every single time I launch the app, the first time I do it it will crash with no dialogue and max out one core. I kill the process in Explorer and launch again, get the "recover scene" dialogue, click no, and then it will launch all the way.

Other than that, I've only had one crash and that was while changing a shader's properties with a render region open.

kimaldis
01-25-2007, 02:21 PM
My problems started after I upgraded from FND to ESS v5 FND was sheer perfection for me.

I believe all of my problems are due to the fact my laptop is constantly in flux - I do (besides 3D graphics), video editing / DVD authoring, music authoring etc. I'm constantly plugging in / removing USB drives, sometimes I'll have Lightwave and XSI running (2 dongles), installing / uninstalling software.


-Will

I do much the same with my own laptop, all sorts of crud gets slung on and off it and for the most part it behaves itself - something it wouldn't have done with 2K or XP of a few years ago.

I think your problem is to do with some kind of conflict, possibly with your old licensing. They upgraded the license server a fair bit for 6. If it is then it's a support issue. Almost certainly they'll be able to help you out.

WillBellJr
01-25-2007, 02:47 PM
So are you suggesting I should remove v5 again? I had originally took it off when I got v6 ESS but I was having so many probs with the key - when I couldn't get it to work at all, I put v5 back on...

I'll be first to say my laptop has issues, but to me, the test mark IMO is Lightwave; I NEVER have problems running LW before or after sleep, with key in or out (sometimes I need to remove the key to pop in a USB pen drive - copy files off, pop back in the dongle and continue - not so with XSI...)

As a software engineer, I can tell SI needs to put more work into that licenser - the fact that they gave me some files and got it working for me is proof, I feel (hope) once they cover all the bases, the major problems should go away. Frankly I feel they should use the Rainbow dongles as Lightwave does.

I was doing some work the other day, decided to chill and watch a movie with the wifey - left my laptop open - eventually I see that dialog that pops up when the dongle is taken out "reconnect / abort / save work" or some such...

Now I'm just sitting there just watching it - I said to myself "I DARE them to close XSI with my (minor but) unsaved work - I dare them!!

So the laptop just sat there -with that progress bar cycling. Then I noticed that my screen didn't shutoff as I have it programmed to after a certain while. Eventually I got pizzed, got up (now the Licenser is burning out my laptop display AND interferring with my smoochy-yumyum tyme!!) To close the whole nonsense down.

What gets me is the key was in so why when I clicked reconnect it doesn't work?? What I had to do was go back to the licenser, restart it and THEN clicking reconnect works - bloody ell?? Shouldn't all that be a part of the >RECONNECT< process??

Softimage has work to do - plain (pain) and simple...

-Will

janimatic
01-25-2007, 04:00 PM
i also like the new render workflow.
I am confident that the bugs will be fixed very quickly, just releasing at christmas day sounds like they have been forced to release in a limited time frame, bad idea imho..
Anyway here are some reproductible bugs :
- drag a shader from a shelve, and drop it on a shader in the rendertree. The expected behavior it to reconnect all material ports automatically (like in v5). It crashes.
- create a biped rig from guide in FND. The make hand script use scripted op, so it won't work (i posted a fix for this on the base)
- flipbook cannot playback realtime anymore when XSI is rendering, even when you preload frames. Probably the side effect of render speed enhancement, something must have changed in therads priority I guess. That's anoying for foundation users since we cannot "pause" a render (unless we use process explorer , but change threads/pause etc in process explorer several time, and finally you won't be able to launch another XSI instance "no interactive license available"..)
Those are the ones i send to suport form, because i can reproduce them easily. Harder to track bugs have been mentioned here.

WillBellJr
01-25-2007, 07:04 PM
Just now at work on my desktop I was looking at the DigitalTutor's Introduction to XSI 2nd Edition and I was up to the part where the engine fan was created.

I figured I'd do "some better blades" and fired up ESS just to do that portion, I revolved the curve for the "nose", created a circle and scaled it down to a nice thin shape of a blade, extruded that up and then twisted the tip and center to get it the way I wanted then did the duplicate multiple etc., - it came out nice...

At that point I wanted to combine all the blades onto the nose part - didn't see a boolean option for surfaces, couldn't merge - selecting all the parts and saving a model yielded a singular null with no geometry upon a test import.

I wanted to save the fan (instead of just toss'n test work as I usually do) but didn't want to save the whole scene - I wanted to try out the camera nav tips when dealing wth rotoscopes that followed the fan construction.

I was going to post the question here (which still stands on how to get multiple surface objects combined into one) when I just figured I'd open the help file.

Cllicked help - XSI popped up a dialog that said "not enough memory to perform operation" and POOF'D - gone from the display - then a secondary dialog eventually popped up "could not save scene file..."

Figures when I want to save some work I've done I lose it anyway...

Now, what did I have open? VisualStudio 2005 (I'm at work) the digital tutors app and XSI - 1Gig of RAM...

I've noticed that v6 feels way fatter than v5 and v4 - it takes way longer to load and it certainly has me feeling the need to upgrade my memory to 2Gigs (obviously 2 Gigs+ is really required these days with all of the digital scuplting and such going on but I've never felt pressed as I do now using v6 for the extra memory...)

Anyway, just another v6 battle scar...

-Will

JDex
01-25-2007, 08:23 PM
...which still stands on how to get multiple surface objects combined into one...


Select the meshes to be merged, Model>Create>Polymesh>Merge... the property page for the op has several options for blending/welding, transfering properties and cleanup.

That is the kinds of crashes that I have gotten, and then couldn't duplicate... please try to recreate that crash with the steps that caused it, and submit it to softimage... if you can't do it 2 out of 4 times, just move on.

yolao
01-25-2007, 08:43 PM
Our animation team has been exploring it as well, and they're both impressed and dissapointed... soft should be getting a lot of feedback from them in the coming weeks.



can you please be more specific about what things the animation team found impressed and what things found dissapointed about XSI animation tools and workflow?

thanks

JDex
01-25-2007, 08:58 PM
can you please be more specific about what things the animation team found impressed and what things found dissapointed about XSI animation tools and workflow?

thanks

I'll see if Matt can take a few minutes to outline a few things in a bit.

WillBellJr
01-25-2007, 09:15 PM
Select the meshes to be merged, Model>Create>Polymesh>Merge... the property page for the op has several options for blending/welding, transfering properties and cleanup.

That is the kinds of crashes that I have gotten, and then couldn't duplicate... please try to recreate that crash with the steps that caused it, and submit it to softimage... if you can't do it 2 out of 4 times, just move on.

Hi, thanks for the tip - are you saying that I should first convert the >nurbs surfaces< (since that's what the tutorial was creating) into polys first and then do the merge? (I know how to merge polys, it was trying to get a singular object from the nurbs surfaces that had me stumped?...)

As far as the crash, I'm not worried about it - granted, I didn't see any virtual memory use (indicating the "hunt for free memory") it just POOF'd - I'm trying to remember if I had a render region open over the fan before I clicked help - a lot of my crashes seem to be render region (graphics memory) related.

-Will

JDex
01-25-2007, 09:38 PM
Sorry, I didn't know it was NURBS, I'm surprised a modern tutorial would bother with them, as they have been rather useless in XSI for as long as I've used it (not completely, just mostly). If it was me, Yes! I'd convert to Polys before merging.

yolao
01-25-2007, 11:58 PM
I'll see if Matt can take a few minutes to outline a few things in a bit.


yes, please, that would be great.

thanks

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