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Mwai Kasamale
02-19-2003, 02:54 AM
I was wondering, It seems to be well known that LW's renderer is the best out of the box renderer, having features since LW6 only being implimented recent releases of other appz.

My question is would the folks at Newtek ever concider creating a seperate application capable of loading LW or 3rd party app scenes dedicated to rendering a-la Renderman. Imagine if Newtek released a renderer able to render scripted shaders in the New scripting language this "renderapp" would employ. I for one think it would be a great Idea. LW's renderer now is fine, infact excellent, but imagine how much more development could be put into Layout, leaving only a shading preview system like G2 as a replacement for Viper(all current bugz eliminated)to preview everything as low or highrez proxys.

All avaliable the render filter plugz would be added only in this renderapp instead of LW, A dedicated system for creating shaders, volumefx and radiosity.

I wanted to know what people thought.

paul k.
02-19-2003, 07:58 AM
Philip Nelson did a demo a long time ago for version six and was speaking on how good the Lightwave renderer was. He said that Digital Domain had asked New Tek if they could just license the renderer, enabling them to use it when they do have to turn to anogher app. Someone asked a little later on if they had indeed licensed it to them and Laughingly Philip responded immediately "Hell No.... It's for our users" and then went on with the demo. That was a long time ago but it was enough for me.
And I personally think that if they did create a render app. that it would certainly spell out that the future is non existent for Lightwave which I certainly do not believe is the case.

wgreenlee1
02-19-2003, 08:21 AM
Nice thought but its not going to happen.:thumbsup:

oracle
02-19-2003, 10:40 AM
Maybe I'm a Lightwave elitist, but I think the LW renderer should remain the privilege of Lightwave users. :thumbsup:

Mwai Kasamale
02-19-2003, 11:48 AM
I understang oracle but that acn easily be remedied with a hefy pricetag for the standalone render for non LW users, I am suggesting that the seperate module be included when you purchase LW but the standalone be offered as its own product, I think it wold be a great thing for Newtek.

Look at what Brazil did for Max users, What Renderman did for Maya users and need I mention Mental Ray. don't get me wrong I agree that LW users should come first when it comes to goodies, but look at the maya community. The majority of Mayas success as an app was the result of Maya "animation' piped through Renderman not rendered in Maya. We recently had a guy form Alias here in Vancouver and even he admitted that Alias don't invest much on their renderer, its fine as it is, and I agree with that but they focus on making Maya the 'Can do" that it has become. Focus much of their R&D into its API and mel, allowing them to claim the crown as the leading FX animation creation tool avaliable today. That Oscar they were awarded wasn't for animation but technical achievement, but lets step back a sec. If Episode 1&2 Toystory, Bugzlife, MIB and all these movies were rendered out of Mayas renderer would they be getting that Oscar.

In my opinion Newtek should really concider this option. I know it may never happen but For a studio to ask to license Lightwaves Renderer despite options like Renderman, BMRT, and now the slew of renderers out there I mean my God, D2's R&D may have somehow leaked into LW today. All the advanced lighting inhouse tools they employ now would be on all our desktops right now.

Chaz
02-19-2003, 12:46 PM
I dunno...but I'd think they'd have to get one-pass AA and decent motion blur without the exorbitant rendertimes before people would buy it on its own! :rolleyes:

Mwai Kasamale
02-19-2003, 01:00 PM
the AA thing I agree with but the blur needs development, I mean how could they make it better. Lightwave is the only app with a blur nore for shadows, Mental ray does have a blur node but its a noise reduction function. If there is one thing I pray LW never get ris of its Motion blur, without it you would never be ale to do things for which GI is the solution in other appz.

spr0g
02-19-2003, 01:40 PM
why would they release a seperate renderer? why wouldn't they just improve the current one?

I dont think it needs changing anyway... from what I have seen... the lightwave renderer is one of the best, and it comes with the package, unlike many others.

Mwai Kasamale
02-19-2003, 03:21 PM
They would do that for those studios who use another app like Maya or something. If they don' t want to invest time in learning a new applicantion for animation but want a kick ass render.

Its just a thought so don't take me too seriously.

Mwai Kasamale
02-19-2003, 03:22 PM
it would be cheaper than Renderman.

Chaz
02-19-2003, 03:22 PM
He means creating a sepatate app from the Lightwave renderer.

Chaz
02-19-2003, 03:40 PM
I agree with you in regards to Lightwave being one of the most beautiful renderers...but the DOF and motion blur seriously need some attention.

One of the reasons that studios use PRMan is because it produces absolutely gorgeous AA and motion blur QUICKLY. You can get a beautiful blur out of Lightwave, but you have to crank up the AA much of the time to get rid of the strobing effect that motion blur creates at lower levels. Vector Blur helps, but it's not very intuitive a produces varied results. Check out a Cinema 4D demo sometime...the render quality isn't as great, but the blurring is fast and looks good.

CIM
02-19-2003, 04:09 PM
Lightwave's renderer isn't flexable enough, while Renderman and Mental Ray were built for production use. Both have great shading languages that let the user describe any surface they imagine. Lightwave's renderer, on the other hand, is limited by it's clunky Surface Editor, minimal options, and post effect filters.

Face it, Newtek can barely develop it's current products, so what makes you think they can handle more? They need to focus on what they've got.

lightwolf
02-19-2003, 05:02 PM
Well, I'd love to see a standalone LW renderer, but only if:

a) it was .rib (i.e. Renderman) compatible
and
b) Layout would read and write .rib as well.

Now add a shader editor to the surfaces panel, and you'd have a great rendering tool :-)

Also, one could switch to every renderman compatible package out there, which is imho the best option.

Cheers,

Mike

policarpo
02-19-2003, 05:06 PM
WTF?

lightwolf
02-19-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by policarpo
WTF?

???

Oh, I see, I meant to say "Shading language compiler option for the surfaces".

Chaz
02-19-2003, 05:35 PM
tall order!

Thalaxis
02-19-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by oracle
Maybe I'm a Lightwave elitist, but I think the LW renderer should remain the privilege of Lightwave users. :thumbsup:

Besides, the cost of the competing standalone renderers is higher than the cost of LightWave... They'd have to LOWER the value and RAISE the price to compete :applause:

jjburton
02-19-2003, 07:43 PM
CIM- What's so wrong about LW's surface editor? I've been using Maya at school and it ridiculously complicated (at least to me). I like LW's. What would you prefer it to be like?

lightwolf
02-19-2003, 07:56 PM
Well, if Lightwave would be Renderman compatible, then I'd like to

a) be able to write shader scripts directly (that would be great, especially with automatic ui generation...)
and
b) would like an optional, node based interface.

Actually, I'd like both in any case :-)

Other than that it is absolutely fine.

visualboo
02-19-2003, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by jjburton
CIM- What's so wrong about LW's surface editor? I've been using Maya at school and it ridiculously complicated (at least to me). I like LW's. What would you prefer it to be like?

POWERFULL.

If complication = power then get ready to step up to the plate.

policarpo
02-20-2003, 05:17 AM
let's all just throw the fish into the fire and give up the ghost so we can eat the lamb and romp in the forest with the trees.

takkun
02-20-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by lightwolf
Well, if Lightwave would be Renderman compatible, then I'd like to

a) be able to write shader scripts directly (that would be great, especially with automatic ui generation...)
and
b) would like an optional, node based interface.

Actually, I'd like both in any case :-)

Other than that it is absolutely fine. Check out the LightMan plug-in. http://www.td-grafik.de/softw/lightman.php3?lang=en

takkun
02-20-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by policarpo
let's all just throw the fish into the fire and give up the ghost so we can eat the lamb and romp in the forest with the trees. My shoulder is sore so I can't throw very well, I'm allergic to fish, I'm afraid of fire and ghosts, I don't eat lamb and romping will throw out my back. Other then that, sounds like fun!

lightwolf
02-20-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Felytendect
Check out the LightMan plug-in. http://www.td-grafik.de/softw/lightman.php3?lang=en

Yep, I know, I've seen it. However, it is yet another cludge.
I was just thinking, if lw had a renderman compatible render pipeline, and would even read .rib in layout, I could see a bunch of studios jumping on board for that feature alone. Most packages have .rib export, one way or another, but can you actually write shaders directly in them, and do actual preview renders within them?

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