ILM adopts Softimage|XSI

[raffael3d]

this is it! :bounce:

[lydlou]

Looks like Softimage is on a roll ... !

[wmendez]

How sweet it is :beer:

[MCronin]

I dunno, I think it just means ILM finally decided to replace SI with XSI in their pipeline. I don't think it means they are using it exclusively or anything like that.

[Guirnaldo]

XSI is definately on the role, the past 10 years...

I'm afraid, very afraid:hmm:

[Ravennome]

XSI now takes it's rightful place as king of animation, suck it A/W time to get back in your old PW role of catch up artist, at least in charater animation.
VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!! :bowdown:

[takkun]

I don't give a rat's ass what ILM is using, as long as it looks good.

Too many people here treat 3d apps as if they were religions. If your not being paid to market the software then why do you waste all your time "selling" it in forums?

[wmendez]

Because we take pride in the Software that we use as well as it's user base.

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by Felytendect
I don't give a rat's ass what ILM is using, as long as it looks good.

Too many people here treat 3d apps as if they were religions. If your not being paid to market the software then why do you waste all your time "selling" it in forums?


Couldn't agree more. I have my favorite software too but i'm understading day after day that software is nothing without an artist. Btw I'm actually curious... how do they want port data to Renderman from XSI?

[raffael3d]

because it makes a difference if you can finish a job in 10 hours or in 7.

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by raffael3d
because it makes a difference if you can finish a job in 10 hours or in 7.

If i liked Maya more than XSI i'd finish my work in the same amount of hours as if i liked XSI more than Maya.

[ThE_JacO]

Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
Couldn't agree more. I have my favorite software too but i'm understading day after day that software is nothing without an artist. Btw I'm actually curious... how do they want port data to Renderman from XSI?

they don't plan to.
ILM almost completely ditched renderman in favor of MRay a few months ago.

[takkun]

Originally posted by wmendez
Becuase we take pride in the Software that we use and it's user base. Why don't you be an artist instead of a zealot? App pride is a waste of time. Sorry, I don't mean to single you out-- I just think that being an app fanboy is just sad.

It's like a guy that really likes Pepsi-- all he does is talk about Pepsi, that's all he drinks, that's all he thinks. Wouldn't you get sick of this guy after a while? I know I would.

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by ThE_JacO
they don't plan to.
ILM almost completely ditched renderman in favor of MRay a few months ago.


Really??? It sounds odd but i'm not an expert so i'll trust you till someone says anything different ;)

[fabman]

Originally posted by Felytendect
It's like a guy that really likes Pepsi-- all he does is talk about Pepsi, that's all he drinks, that's all he thinks. Wouldn't you get sick of this guy after a while? I know I would.

Yep!, 'cos everybody knows that Coke it's the best drink around......

:)

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by fabman
Yep!, 'cos everybody knows that Coke it's the best drink around......

:)


LOL

[LittleFenris]

Why is everyone here so defensive about the programs they use? I use Lightwave cause that is the one i happened into a couple years go..but ive tried Maya, 3DS Max and even Carrara. Lightwave seems to "click" the most with me..over the others. But dynamics and fur/hair are much easier to do in Maya. I think they all have there strong suits...just a matter of user preferance really. I've never tried SoftImage XSI...how is its interface compared to the others? (like maya and 3ds have some resemblances in the initial interface although much different under the skin..where as lightwave doesn't look like ANY of them...which i dont mind ;))

[BrandonD]

Well, I think they've always done their animation in Softimage or in-house tools, so this isn't major news. Maya has been primarily for particles and dynamics from what I heard (which makes sense coming from Dynamation). Of course if you attended a VES presention of theirs in the last couple years I probably heard "...in Maya" every few sentences ;)

Still, it really makes sense for them to swap out the older SI package and migrate to the newer evolution. It's an impressive package and I'm sure they've spent some time retooling their years of customization with it.

[Gelfling]

You gain some real benefit's using XSI over Maya at this stage. Mental Ray working at a 100% level with no need to export or worry about the cost of Renderman. XSI also has a very high end surfacing system.

The best CA system and in my opinion the best set of modeling tool's. A very well done native hair and cloth tool set.

You lose some in particles and dynamic's but it can still handle the job.

Whatever work's... either XSI or Maya :shrug: I am sure the end result will be stunning artwork.


---------


“RenderMan is the only renderer which consistently produces the image quality we demand. From T-Rex to tornadoes, RenderMan gives us the flexibility to deliver the kinds of images our clients expect of ILM.”

Barry Armour
Head of Technical Directors
Industrial Light & Magic

How you doing Barry? :p

[elfufu]

not that i want to participate in this retarded thread, and i couldnt agree more with the "if you arent getting paid why market it idea" . but gollum was made in maya nuff said.

[Gelfling]

then why did you participate in this retarded thread with a "wa s made with!" trying to sell software line?

Sorry.. I just had to

[Dan Dixon]

THEY ARE ALL THE SAME SO SHUT UP

all apps do the same thing it's up to the user to do the work. this thing about oh oh xsi has this so its the best app to us oh wait Maya can do this tho. To be true all package on there own have problems

[Frido Nahon]

The thing that matters is the fact that "your" 3d app has a strong/large user base. The more people/studios using a kind of (3D) program the more support/3rd party software and jobs there are.

Regards, Frido

[SheepFactory]

GUYS PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A FLAME WAR!

Dan is right.

Its just news for gods sake , doesnt mean xsi is the best or whatever.

Considering the amout of SI3D artists ILM already had this move is only logical.

Ali

[nimajneb]

Originally posted by elfufu
not that i want to participate in this retarded thread, and i couldnt agree more with the "if you arent getting paid why market it idea" . but gollum was made in maya nuff said.

Uh, from what I know of Bay, the facial targets for golumn were done in Mirai likely, and then ported into Maya for workflow. Though I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong (duck :) )!

[wmendez]

Originally posted by Felytendect
Why don't you be an artist instead of a zealot? App pride is a waste of time. Sorry, I don't mean to single you out-- I just think that being an app fanboy is just sad.

It's like a guy that really likes Pepsi-- all he does is talk about Pepsi, that's all he drinks, that's all he thinks. Wouldn't you get sick of this guy after a while? I know I would.

I am in artist as well as a zealot, why can't I be both? here's my first image with XSI while still promoting it

http://www.edharriss.com/xsi/3point0_images/XSI_POP_large.jpg

and am currently doing contract base work for a web project. I don't mind giving back to the Softimage Community and that is why I'm part of XSI Base as well as the president of the Montreal User group. Softimage has not paid me a dime nor has giving me anything in return but they are greatful for the things I do.

Yes it's not the tool it's the craftsmen but in this case Softimage providing the toolsets that I need in 3D and as of lately compositing. You might tell that I am not an Avid zelalot all the way as I still use a Video Toaster for my Editing needs.

I don't mind being singled out but just thought I would explain why I am the ambassador. http://www.xsibase.com/YaBBImages/lipsrsealed.gif

[Apoclypse]

I don't agree at all. They are all not the same otherwise why would ILM use maya for particles and dynamics, softimage for animation, and lightwave for more mechanical type things. I think it is unfair to say they are the same, yes an artist should be able to use any tool and creat some spectacular things. ( i've seen some people use freeware and come out with some quality stuff). However some tools are far better than others at some things. I don't think ILM just upgraded to XSI becuase they use 3D, but upgraded becuase the bones system must be so much easier to use ( skinning and such is a lot easier in XSI, but 3D isn't all that bad at all.) I think that maya's ik system is very good and they introduced things like character sets and so on ( wiring, vectot constraints) I like both Apps they are both good apps. I admit that I like maya better becuase of the particle system ( but that is my area anyway).

Anyways, I think that you guys should stop that holier than though "any app is a good app" and admit that thatis not always true some apps are better than others at some things. I'm sorry to sya it but I don't see very much 3dsmax used at ILM ( uh-oh here come the flames) but who knows maybe when they take out a totally re-written app then you never know I think max has quite a lot of potential that hasn't been tapped yet.

Besides its a promo thing you know ILM probably gets these things for free ( the companies want the "ILM used such and such for this production, we couldn't have done it without -enter favorite app name here-") so you shouldn't really pay to much attention to what app is used, but i don't agree that they are all the same some have their strengths some ahve their weaknesses.

[BrandonD]

Originally posted by Apoclypse
better than others at some things. I'm sorry to sya it but I don't see very much 3dsmax used at ILM ( uh-oh here come the flames) but who knows

Common question and the quick answer has nothing to do with the capabilities of the app. It's just simply that it doesn't run on IRIX or any flavor of UNIX or Linux, so therefore it's not going to get in the door.

Besides, in the "highend" community there's a substantial amount of ignorance about MAX.

[Ravennome]

I agree software agnosticism is key; you must be an artist first and foremost. I use all packages, and love different things about them, ILM does the same. Having said that however, I do think its important to state that you can do some things faster and more intuitively in certain packages.

When speed is an issue every click, render and iteration counts. As far as I've seen XSI has implemented every tool with this and the artist in mind, rather than shoehorning and over complicating everything. Have you messed with Maya's excuse for non-linear animation editor; it just fights you at every turn. My thought for Alias was that they always had the modeling and technically deep stuff down cold and that character animation and production was just an afterthought, Maya changed a lot of that, thank god, but it still had the stench of engineering on it.

My analogy for their philosophy vs. SoftImage was that, there’s a door you wanna open, with Soft you just walk to the door and open it, with AW stuff you had to jump through 3 hoops to get to the same door. It was always a matter of constantly having look stuff up to get a handle on controls that were just improperly named, had little to no description, or did nothing discernable in the final render, My favorite example of this from AW was a refractive something or other esoteric control for a surface, and when I look it up all it said was that it controlled the refractive something or other (the same title as the control), with no explanation of what that did, and in the final render it just added 5 minutes to every frame with no perceptible change. Speaking of which what is with AW not building in a new and better renderer than that clunky broke down mess they've been using, yeah you can make it sing but it takes forever, just because every post house uses renderman or MR doesn't mean that base users do.

As for zealots, have you seen the Maya Gestapo out in force??, Maya, it's like if you use anything but Maya your crazy. Maya's great but its not all pretty pictures and rosy dreams. The reason I love XSI above others is that they always innovate .(notice how when XSI1.0 - 2.5 was solidifying their core, and wasn't showing anything new or truly innovative, Maya slowed down on its feature release and only offered up two barley worthwhile revised versions, why weren't they putting out new ideas, instead of just charging for licensing on irrelevant upgrades) they listen to their users and improve and they don't release new versions until they have something really new to release, they don't rely on there users to script work-arounds for problems and deficiencies in their design.
They are both great packages, but if you remember SI:3D was Character Animation king for a long time, they lost their grip when they fumbled with the delayed release Sumatra/XSI 1.0, ILM adopting it just means that they've finally reached their goal of being as solid, reliable, workable as SI:3D was, only now in a next gen pipeline, they are a standard officially now. I'm interested to see what happens next. Let the innovation war begin.

[qchan]

best news of the day

[BrandonD]

I still find it interesting that whenever a major prestigious studio adopts off the shelf software, so many people suddenly see it as the end all be all solution. If you've ever worked at both a small studio and a large studio you'll see that both sides of the equation have different needs. ILM's software needs to not translate across the entire industry.

Still, especially for students, I can see how it suddenly becomes "I want to work at ILM so I'm going to become proficient with their software." A wise choice in that case.

[somlor]

Originally posted by ThE_JacO
they don't plan to.
ILM almost completely ditched renderman in favor of MRay a few months ago.
:rolleyes: You wouldn't happen to have any links or references for this incredibly bold statement would you?

mental ray is at least 5 times slower at motion blur than PRMan. And considering ILM uses motion blur in every single render I highly doubt they've "ditched" PRMan.

[s]

[Ravennome]

Rman will never be ditched, they are to entrenched at ILM and besides the propritery versions of MR and Rman that ILM uses are so threaded and far beyond what any of us could dream of, there's really no purpose in worryng about it.
A friend of mind, Tim Naylor, works for ILM, at Siggraph last year he told me that they have everything torn apart and rewritten to take advantage of each packages strong points just like they do with Maya, LW and Soft. For example motion blur and displacment are handled by Rman, but reflections, HDRI and lighting are MR domain, outside of that there a whole-lot of Sabre compositing thats piped right from the renders and married. So in EP2, all the rain and particle effects could be renedered with with MR but the cloth and hair was a combo of MR interacting with Rman displacment, clumping, and bump.

Oh what a joy it must be to have in house R&D.

[visualboo]

Monkeys take pee's in the forest at sunrise

edit: oo ooo... zainlars, where ya from?

[wmendez]

http://www.uemedia.com/CPC/article_2675.shtml

[Ravennome]

I'm out of Chicago. Soon to be a Califonia boy, more specifically a SF boy.

[Array]

hehe, what part of chicago? im up in lincoln park.

[visualboo]

well I knew you lived in chi-town, but where abouts. I just moved from about 500 feet above the house of blues.

Cali huh? I was supposed to move out there but then I got the job I'm at now.

Array, no your not, quit stalking man.... You scare me sometimes ;)

[somlor]

Originally posted by wmendez
http://www.uemedia.com/CPC/article_2675.shtml
I'm well aware that they use MentalRay heavily. I'm not discounting that, or the proven power of MRay. I'm waiting for the original poster to provide a single shred of evidence for saying ILM is "ditching" their RMan pipeline which is ludicrous.

[s]

[edit] zainlars: I agree. What a big studio like ILM does with a 3d package is something entirely different than what you get out of the box. I've heard of ILM guys using Maya who would go around saying "I use MEL" instead because practically every tool they worked with was custom built anyway. :)

[StefanDidak]

Originally posted by BrandonD
Besides, in the "highend" community there's a substantial amount of ignorance about MAX.

But you would probably agree that such ignorance is less than it once was, especially since a lot of us that have extensive experience with MAX provide a little education where needed so that those once ignorant can now decline MAX for more accurate technical and practical reasons. :)

[visualboo]

StefanDidak: I think what Brando Commando meant was that people don't really know as much about max as they think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

---
ignorance

\Ig"no*rance\, n. the lack of knowledge or education
---

Just thought I would copy and paste that for clarity.

[BrandonD]

At the core of this discussion is the feeling that many people are impressed with a package when it's used on a big film. So they can say "Hey X's cool - they used it on Y film." Still, the big studios customize the hell out of their tools (in most cases), so I guess this could be a bit misleading. I mean, consider it this way, are they saying "You can do stuff like Sony did on Spiderman with Maya."? Isn't a more true test of a package's capabilities (along with the artists') when it's used with little customization?

[StefanDidak]

Originally posted by visualboo
I think what Brando Commando meant was that people don't really know as much about max as they think. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Absolutely correct. That's why a lot of long-time MAX users who have moved away from MAX for many different reasons are helping out with the education of those that are ignorant about MAX. Instead of dismissing it on the grounds they used to ("it's a games-only tool", to name one prime example), many of those individuals have now at least been able to make a more educated decision about why they wouldn't want to adopt it.

A company can't do what's needed to get into certain markets if the reasons people decline to use/buy their products are based on ignorance or prejudice. However, there's been an increase in the number of people that decline to adopt MAX based on experience and knowledge that they gain from those that do have extensive MAX experience. It doesn't get MAX adopted into those environments but at least it's declined for more correct and fitting reasons.

[letitbeknown]

it's true i tell ya

[StefanDidak]

Originally posted by BrandonD
At the core of this discussion is the feeling that many people are impressed with a package when it's used on a big film. So they can say "Hey X's cool - they used it on Y film." Still, the big studios customize the hell out of their tools (in most cases), so I guess this could be a bit misleading. I mean, consider it this way, are they saying "You can do stuff like Sony did on Spiderman with Maya."? Isn't a more true test of a package's capabilities (along with the artists') when it's used with little customization?

It would be, yes, but unfortunately the industry has always been one where perception = reality. Not just for the synthetic images but also the heart of the entire industry itself. As such you have a few big or prestrigeous trendsetters that regardless of their intentions do set the trend that others will follow. Some will follow it because of fitting reasons, others just follow it blindly like lemmings. :)

It's been like that for at least the past 15 years and I am sure it'll be the same 15 years from now. If you can gain the prestigeous spotlights you can reign from high up and trickle down as needed whereas fighting your way up a steep corridor is almost certain to generate an incorrect perception.

Regardless of the angle things are looked at it divides the industry and its users and I sense it'll only get more obvious in the near to mid-term future. Back in the haydays when we all had to write our own tools things were more cohesive, less combative, fewer fanatics and zealots and fewer apologists. When the low to mid end commercial software products started to appear things were still very much like that and the personal preference and choice for a certain product did not matter and wasn't even a topic of discussion like it's been the past many years. During that time most could only gawk and drewl at the expensive solutions that were appearing and the whole 'snobism' culture found its introduction. I recall that when we first started to go with SGI machines others suddenly started to justify and defend their choice of products, mostly originating from those that couldn't afford the "shiny luxury toys" because those that could often moved up if it suited them.

After this initial commercial (r)evolution the products started to grow in eachothers directions. The low to mid end tools getting more meat, the luxury toys dropping to different and often more affordable levels, so the divide that was once there got squeezed into an hourglass shape. Still, all the while the expensive luxury toys got the credit, the spotlight and altered the perception, or rather molded the perception into the reality it has become. The past 7-8 years have clearly been defined by the low to mid end wishing to grow more towards what the luxury toys had and could accomplish while the highend snobs were both threatened and disgusted by it in oh so many ways.

What has been happening the past two years is that the hourglass shape is going from the narrow part back to the wide part. The more prestigeous tools that get the spotlight and set the trend continue on that path while the low and mid end tool vendors attempt to cover as much area as possible because making a successful stab at climbing the steep stairs is proving unduely difficult or impossible. It once again is dividing the market into a situation very similar as the one it started out as. And wouldn't you know it, indeed, the same thing is repeating itself in terms of defenders, apologists, high-end snobs, and general hostility between the various camps. But instead of the low to mid end wishing to grow more towards what they have been aiming for the past years there's now the added frustration of moving in either a direction where one needs to jump ahead in order to gain the required experience to work in a certain part of the industry, or to simply be content with what they already have and deal with that while the plateu's are moving away from eachother and thus potentially makes it harder for others to shift around freely due to financial or other constraints.

Another thing that is clearly on the increase is proprietary development. I don't think it is a good excuse any longer to point out that a lot of extra work is done unrelated to what's in a commercial box because there is way more increase in in-house development and contracts for companies that work in those aspects of the industry. Where the plugin/addon market once boomed it's been fading out slowly and will continue to do so as the hourglass shape widens itself. With this noticable increase that isn't exclusive to the big players anymore but also the mid-sized ones it will certainly lead to a situation where assumptions that all the work is accomplished by an out-of-the-box solution diminishes as many more people will realize that there's more to it than that. With the commercial addon market shifting away and finding less commercially viable grounds it'll entice self-starters to look at those aspects of a product a lot more, not just the tech-savvy but also the artist-only individuals. We're all going back to the point of where it started; lots of do-it-yourself and less out-of-the-box. The vendors that can provide a solid basis as well as the best workable platform for that will be adopted, gain the spotlights, and... indeed, once again will determine perception and mold it into the reality that governs the industry.

In short, history is being reset and is simply repeating itself in a very similar way again. It's been very cool during the years when I chipped in where possible to help grow and aim things towards knocking down 'the establishment' but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy being back up the stairs with the 'snobs' where the drive for prestige and achievement is an almost singular objective and where trends are set and the reality of the industry is shaped. The mass commercial market has turned too much a mainstream commodity and is getting too much a "Word vs. Wordperfect" plateu (and as we all can agree on, real men use vi exclusively hehe). :)

[xmb]

I LOVE TO BE ****ING PASSIONATED ABOUT A SOFTWARE. BECAUSE YOU MELT WITH IT, AS IF WITH A PENCIL. IT'S LIKE THE GIRL YOU LOVE, YOU'RE JUST CRAZY ABOUT IT.
AND THAT'S SOFTIMAGE-XSI TO ME WHEN I'M CREATIVE WITH COMPUTERS. IT'S LOVE AND PASSION, FUN AND FASCINATION.

I LOVE MY GIRL AND I LOVE XSI

[BrandonD]

Hehe, totally dude ;)

[visualboo]

Perfect explenation as to why we all get crazy when it comes to app wars.

XSI has bigger boobs than Maya or whatever ;)

[gladallover]

Personally, I'm amazed that this creates such a buzz here. I know and find it gratifying that everyone here is so passionate about thier art and the way that they create it, but I have to say that people must remember that most busineses in this industry rely on less than 5 employees and are rarely going to be so easily influenced on thier choice of software by a major studios anouncment. For these companies, the reality of production costs, and prior investment in skill and software remain to be priorities. ie..if this is set to become a trend it will take a long time to filter down. imho......software snobery only seeks to divide what should be a foward thinking artistic community, and will negatively influence those who are seeking to enter this community.

I hate to think that software will become treated as no more than the flavour of the month popband come fashion, XSI is the new black eh, well if we degrade a great science to the level of pop culture then as an artistic society we run the risk of subjecting ourselves to the risk of debasing the validity of art that is created with these tools.


I have no personal preference and see all packages as no more
than great tools of potential creativity, which thay are, even down to lowest of low end packages

[StefanDidak]

Originally posted by visualboo
XSI has bigger boobs than Maya or whatever ;)

I'm more of a "leg man"... :)

[StefanDidak]

Originally posted by gladallover
most busineses in this industry rely on less than 5 employees and are rarely going to be so easily influenced on thier choice of software by a major studios anouncment. For these companies, the reality of production costs, and prior investment in skill and software remain to be priorities.


You're right about that. But that only covers the established ones or those that have been around for a while and can't, or have no reason to, expand their toolset, etc. While it's not the 90's anymore and the boom in start-up studios has subdued, it's clear that things are still very dynamic. Lots of businesses still fail, even after 2 or 3 years, and yet newer ones get founded and started to replace the gaps in the market. It's that continual fast paced business life cycle where the influence gears more towards the new start-ups, the new students, the new interested folk, the casual hobbyist, etc. All of which get caught in the net of perception and (un)knowingly perpetuate it further. Influence and perception that's set forth at this stage will not have immediate effects but do tend to creep along over time and turn into long-term (and thereby powerful and strong) influences.

If we leave issues of snobbery and high-end arrogance out of the equation I'm pretty sure that everyone who's been around for a while in this industry will agree that much of what has taken place in the production environment as well as the development arena of commercial vendors has been extremely strongly influenced, and even driven, by those that are in the constant positive spotlights. Regardless of whether it's been valid or not for that spotlight to be on them it has resulted in many years of influence and inspiration. MAX with its roots in 3DS was more than just casually inspired by Prisms/Houdini, etc. for instance. Or what about the MAX user base mantra that went on for at least a year where "like Maya has" was a very strong signal. In terms of influence the bigger trends and innovations of the tools in the historical and perpetual spotlight have always been a key factor while the smaller 'cool trick' and 'handy tool' of the mainstream products influenced those 'at the top' in turn. But at the end of the day the score card for influence does lean heavily in favor of the dominant few.

The biggest influx is mostly the youngsters and late teens that get into this stuff right here right now. Because they are young, and needless to say inexperienced in how the industry really works and looks like, they are the easiest to influence and all that perception stuff carries a very big payload for them. While an awful lot won't get any further than dabbling around, the group that goes on and find themselves building careers in the business will have dealt with a lot of influence and the strongest influences are those with the strongest perception. It's never been any different, though. The younger crowd wants to be on the side that's popular and once they are fitted firmly into a certain channel it's not easy to change their views. We've had the Power Animator and Softimage generation, the 3DS/MAX/Lightwave generation, the recent past has been dominated by a Maya generation, and who knows what's next... an XSI generation where a lot of perception provides XSI the popularity contest prize. So technically what you're saying about pop culture, flavor of the month (well, a year or three seems to be the going rate in this business) is true. It's not entirely productive and might not mean a whole lot in the end result, but the harsh truth of the industry is that things are always a popularity contest, sort of like it being high-school all over but in a different context. :)

Then again, A, W and Softimage have always been two of the top trend-setters, even from a historic perspective, so the analogy would be that while the historical products are around as alumni it's their offspring that take over and continue in their footsteps. Different flavors, same situation. If they can keep at it and repeat history indefinitely it'll be their continued offspring that gets the credits and the spotlights, and thereby the funds and capabilities to continue, innovate, etc. It's not all a bad thing because any business gains can, if done appropriately, be turned into advantages and further achievement. Upwards and onwards.

[FreeQ]

VIDEOSCAPE beats them all!:cool:

[Ravennome]

visualboo,

I live in lakeview.

[Daolohua CnC]

another argument about which software's better...

can't say we didn't see this one coming tho...

[drunkirishmic]

not all software is equal. they all have their strong points. and maya does have bigger boobs.

i hate to see its the artist that makes the work and not the app. thats like saying micalangelo could do something with a crayon just as well as someone does with painter and a wacom tablet. he might be able to, but it'll take him a lot longer and it probably wont look as good.

that said, i think max needs some support in thsi thread. *get on soap box*
why is max bashes all the time? before u start, i will list known issues: it crashes occasionally, discreets support blows, it doesnt handle large scenes well. and beyond that? i dunno what all the comlaints r a bout. i think the workflow is great, it keeps up with every one of my commands. with CS, i cant think of a better character animation system. although i havent werkt with XSI's much so i not gonna say it blows compared to CS.
poly modelling is great. i have read in countless tuts on XSI and Maya about how u can create a poly "cage" and have a high geometry mesh reat to changes in the low poly cage (i.e. sub-d). and they treat it like its some fantastic new invention no one has ever herd of and no other package has. jesus christ, max has it and the toolsets, for me, r better than maya or XSI. even maya's MJpolytools doesnt come close to meshtools and now the native toolset.
now max has brazil AND vray AND fR. what more could u want? hell up until PRMan 4 or 5, it didnt even have true raytracing.

i hear all this bickering between apps. i tested maya and XSI, i still am testing them. ive been doin it for like 2 weeks. and i have found some things in XSI i love, maya too. and there r some things that just dont make sense at all. and since max has all of those fantastic plugins, i dont need to go into them now do i? and dont play the "max sucks but after u spend ur kids college fund on plugs its a decent package" card, thats bullshit. how much does XSI cost? thats what i thought. maya is the only real contender when it comes to price. now AW is goin the way of Discreet, release barely updated software and charge out the butt for a new liscense.

basically all im saying is max gets bashed a lot for no reason, at least no reasons r given. i wanna see some videos where they poly model or do some character animation so i can see why "your" app is the shiznat. because right now i dont see it.

hmmm, after reading all of that im sure my ass will be flamed for the next month and probably be banned from cgtalk for life.

CETE lives!

[robkoni]

well ,I'm Glad that ILM have gone with XSI....Why ,well I'm learning it as we speak and hopefully when I'M up to speed with it ,It will be in Enough EFX houses for me to get a job with it,
To all those who think it's the Artist not the Tool....well you are completely correct.....HOWEVER in the real Commercial world,companys just dont have the time to retrain you......So thaey dont employ you if your not Software compatible(this is a fact):annoyed:
So on a purely selfish level,this is good news for me as ,many people do look to ILM to see how they are working:bounce: :applause: :thumbsup:
As Lightwave (my chosen tool,makes me akin to a leper in the UK,almost all EFX seems to be done with MAYA at the mo,and I just dont click with MAYA at all)

[withanar]

Originally posted by robkoni

As Lightwave (my chosen tool,makes me akin to a leper in the UK,almost all EFX seems to be done with MAYA at the mo,and I just dont click with MAYA at all)

From what I've gathered, XSI is also pretty ubiquitous in the UK right now. For a list of effects houses using it, check out this website: http://medlem.spray.se/sbanders/

[robkoni]

Thanks for that Withaner ,nice list However for Movie work at this time there is realy only Framestore CFC and there useing MAYA for all there Movie projects at the moment(pretty sure anyway)
Thanks again Robin
:bounce:
Love those Bouncy smileys(want one as a pet)

[somlor]

Question: Maya has MEL and it is relatively easy to open a listener and copy/paste sequences of commands into a macro tool. From my understanding XSI scripting can be done with any ActiveX complaint language, ie: Perl, Python, VB, etc ... How does this work when you want to create simple macro tools from within the XSI environment itself? Can anyone familiar with the differences explain to me the advantages/disadvantages of having the scripting language specific to the architecture itself, like in Maya or entirely open (apparently) like in XSI?

Thanks,
[s]

[zen]

wo somlor! whats with the sarcasm?? did someone from softimage kill your dog or something?

The xsi listenner is one of the best ive seen, as says a coworker of mine who is heavily into scripting. You can copy paste into tools or whatnot, even copy from the web, paste it into the listener/editor and hit run.
The advantages of activeX? Well heres one example: in a game production studio the programmer can come write his C++ game scripts right into the model to test them out with direct visual feedback.
And if you learn C++, your not screwed if soft goes under.

[somlor]

zen: thanks for the reply. Sorry if my post came off that way, but there was zero sarcasm. I am just honestly curious and I am not biased in any way. It seems like there would be advantages and disadvantages to both though.

What kind of code exactly does XSI's listener spit out anyway?

[s]

[pearson]

I think it is funny that in all the flaming, people have missed the point that ILM is replacing Softimage|3D with Softimage|XSI. Softimage isn't "winning" or "losing" anything.

I, however, would love to win a copy of XSI! He he, wink wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean, know what I mean? Say no more! :cool:

[zen]

The listener outputs either VBScript or JScript, depending on preference setting, vbs by default.

Supported input languages are VBScript, JScript, PerlScript and Python ActiveX. and i thought i saw some c++ somewhere, but after looking im not sure anymore. Maybe thats just sdk for new toolset creation.

!

[StefanDidak]

Originally posted by pearson
Softimage isn't "winning" or "losing" anything.


ILM has been executing a fairly long term strategy that involves an overhaul of their production environment. Part of all that are the technical characteristics, deployment of software and tools, network changes, etc. During this overhaul a lot of different hardware, software, and technologies that have outlived their purpose for them have been phased out. Replacing stacks and stacks of Sun machines, the agressive move towards Linux and the phasing out of SGI, etc. Given this overhaul, and particularly in relation to the press statements, Softimage has "gained" by not being a technology that got phased out (or kicked out the window to put it more bluntly). They may not have "won" or "lost", but did certainly "gain" something. That definitely puts the press release in a correct context.

[StefanDidak]

Originally posted by zen
and i thought i saw some c++ somewhere, but after looking im not sure anymore. Maybe thats just sdk for new toolset creation.


Yep, that is definitely the SDK you were looking at. :)

[trence5]

I agree. Some all have their strengths and weakness. Get this.. I heard that for certain things, they actually used Cinema 4D in Gladitor. Go figure:shrug:

[Jhonus]

Software evangilism :thumbsdow

I know you might think your helping spread the word, but its really frustrating to read.

Fact will always remain that talent is superior to skill with an app. Yes, sometimes a company might require you to drop straight into a production environment without delay.... this should be seen as even more of a reason not to get attached to one app, as you may be required to use any of them at the drop of a hat.

blah blah blha blha blha blha.

I am an anti "software evangilism" zealot.

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by trence5
I agree. Some all have their strengths and weakness. Get this.. I heard that for certain things, they actually used Cinema 4D in Gladitor. Go figure:shrug:

And inspector gadget, the mummy returns, tomb raider, attack of the clones, spiderman etc too. Surprised? ;) I think that a company like ILM uses so many software during the process from modeling to compositing that it's useless to say "they use this"" "no they use that!" and in first place... wtf cares about it? :shrug:

[Gelfling]

There is a big difference in using a program to make animated text during credit's and using a program to animate some cg creature.

Of course a company is going to promote their product anytime it get's used. They all do it. People seem to not grasp the big picture. Some people are interested in knowing what is getting used for a simple reason. They want to be ahead of the game on getting hired. If you use the native software then you will be looked at harder. That is not dumb or childish but looking out for you're future. If it did not matter then colleges would just grab the cheapest software off the shelf. It does matter for those looking to break into the industry as quick as possible. It matter's a lot less for someone doing it just for fun. Companies do not say "experience with 3dsMax/Maya a big plus" because they do not care. They do care and it does play a part.

I agree it is the artist but in the industry what you know can get you a job quicker then what you do not know.

Everyone has different goal's and if just making great "art" is it then do not have any concern. If trying to get a job as quick as possible in field X then you would be better suited to understand what they use. If I want a job at Blizzard and I know they are heavily piped into Max then that is what I am learning if possible.

No one question's that great art can be made with program X. You should not be that concerned but it does not hurt to pay attention.

[ThirdEye]

This is a great post about this subject that i found at postforum.com:

"Can't understand the fuss. Sure XSI has great tools, crowd systems and so, but always remember that these guys do as little as possible in 3d.

After modeling and texturing they use various tools for animation and then take it to Renderman or Mentalray or whatever they want to use and render the image (usually with rough settings to make it quick) to buffers which are taken to Shake or some other composition tool.

There they set the lights, colors, shadows, add some blur and noise to fit in mattepaintings..even change some textures since it's possible in Shake.

So the final screen is a result of hunreds of operations and applications involved. The journey from modeler to film projector is so long that it's often impossible to give major credits to any single tool."


couldn't agree more with this post ;)

[trence5]

Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
And inspector gadget, the mummy returns, tomb raider, attack of the clones, spiderman etc too. Surprised?

NO WAY!!! :eek:

[Gelfling]

Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
This is a great post about this subject that i found at postforum.com:

"Can't understand the fuss. Sure XSI has great tools, crowd systems and so, but always remember that these guys do as little as possible in 3d.

After modeling and texturing they use various tools for animation and then take it to Renderman or Mentalray or whatever they want to use and render the image (usually with rough settings to make it quick) to buffers which are taken to Shake or some other composition tool.

There they set the lights, colors, shadows, add some blur and noise to fit in mattepaintings..even change some textures since it's possible in Shake.

So the final screen is a result of hunreds of operations and applications involved. The journey from modeler to film projector is so long that it's often impossible to give major credits to any single tool."


couldn't agree more with this post ;)

lol as if modeling and texturing is not a big deal

..........

MentalRay is in XSI. No need to take it anywhere. I assure you Maya and XSI houses do character animation in the program's. I also assure you many game companies do character animation in 3dsMax.

We also forget ILM, Pixar and companies with those kind of resources make up a small percent. I guess Shrek could have been done with Blender and shake. Imagine that

If packages did not matter everyone would use AM or Truespace.

Who is this guy?

[matty429]

Originally posted by ThE_JacO
they don't plan to.
ILM almost completely ditched renderman in favor of MRay a few months ago.


Ahaaha...I can see it now.....George....we can't render that.....
We used renderman for that ..and it worked...but we ditched that stuff ..

[somlor]

Originally posted by matty429
Ahaaha...I can see it now.....George....we can't render that.....
We used renderman for that ..and it worked...but we ditched that stuff ..

heh. I was surprised to be the only one not letting that slide.

[s]

[Jhonus]

Originally posted by Gelfling
MentalRay is in XSI. No need to take it anywhere. I assure you Maya and XSI houses do character animation in the program's. I also assure you many game companies do character animation in 3dsMax.

We also forget ILM, Pixar and companies with those kind of resources make up a small percent. I guess Shrek could have been done with Blender and shake. Imagine that

Who is this guy?

I'm not sure what you are getting at..... Sure games companies may use Max for character animation, but many use maya and in some cases use lightwave (as illustrated by the recent interview of Obraz Studios)... The point that is trying to be made is that it is best to be well versed in a variety of packages rather than proclaiming one package to be the final solution to the 3D question.

Maybe if you are applying for one position at one company you may be able to specialize in one package, but in most cases you will be sending out multiple reels to multiple companies who are using multilple packages. And more often than not they will be interested in artistic talent with or without knowledge of the app they are using for the specific job you are applying for.

The only thing you can safely bank on is creative talent... it seems people talk about it and assume it as a given..... from what I see, amongst the cars and dragons, it is the rarest thing of everything.

[Gelfling]

Hi Krugar

I think the post that was relied from postforum? is way off.

For one big studies like ILM are the exception and not the rule. Most of us will never work at a studio that can afford everything under the sun including hiring people to tie it all in and make it work.

I want to agree with you right off the bat on one thing. Creative talent is key to any success in art in general. A creative mind seperates the few from the many IMHO. That type of person is the type you see make art with anything. That is confusing the topic however.

I advice each and everyone to look at companies looking for job's. Not just here or on a messege board but on actual sites. Nine out of ten times they are requesting specific education or knowledge in a application. They do not want to have to take the week to explain to you where this tool is and how character animating is in this package. I have seen myself someone with less talent get hired because they knew package X. My ONLY point was if you want to work at some house then scope out what they use. If you want to do gaming then focusing on Cinema4d or Lightwave is shooting yourself in the foot IMHO. Is that to say that either of those are not used at all in gaming? No way but again I will place a friendly wage that the vast majority of companies looking to hire are requesting 3dsMax knowledge.

Of course learning more then one is great. Yet how many actually learn just one? Putting too much on you're plate is a quick way to get burned out early. Learning just one package enough to say "I can do about anything" is daunting enough. Not everyone can afford program x but let us not be naive either. People compare Lightwave to XSI like it is no difference at all. The character animation in XSI is vastly superior to Lightwave. Can you animate great art in Lightwave? Sure! no doubt or question about it. The two are so different that a studio that uses XSI to animate is not going to want to take the time to explain the huge differences and the pure mass of option's. The person using Lightwave might be a way better artist. They are going to go for someone who understand's it.

I can point out a few companies using any application for a game/movie/fx but that is deluding. Game companies do not just use Max for CA but for level editing/texturing/modeling and just pipe it right into the game engine. Why do you think Max suffered for a long time with a less then par scanline? Their client's did not need it for the most part. I do not even use Max but I hate fud. I could post for every game company accepting Lightwave/Maya user's five that are requesting 3dsMax. It is not speculation.

If you can "really" learn two program's and not just at face value then more power to you. If you can learn three at a level that you could do a job then you will have NO problem finding a job.

Will be my last post to this topic because this is the last thing I wanted to get involved in. The bottom line is if you want to get somewhere specific then specialize and plan. There is no doubt a talented creative artist can get in with any program and into any field but it is a matter of timing and determination. Sorry to ramble on.. was my morning coffee

[ThirdEye]

Another interesting post copied and pasted from Postforum.com, this time the post has been written by Phil Mc Nally, an ILM guy, to agree with the author of my previous quote.

"Absolutly right. ILM will use what ever gets the job done. Soft/Maya/xsi/inhouse software are all currently in action for character animation. I think the announcment is strange...Phil"

[Gelfling]

Originally posted by Gelfling
For one big studies like ILM are the exception and not the rule.

As for that quote .. that goes without saying. They have the resources to own every application known to man. They can afford to let people work with whatever and tie it all in. The gift of success and rich pocket's. Most like as said they just replaced old Softimage|3d seats for XSI seats

For those interested there is a great thread going on in the general forum about what is used and what not in OZ land.

For the record.. I have never met a aussie I did not like

[Jhonus]

Originally posted by Gelfling
For the record.. I have never met a aussie I did not like
lol, you haven't met enough of them then. :beer:

[Gelfling]

:beer:

[Jo24]

ThirdEye_01, I'd be interested in seeing the rest of the posts you quoted from Postforum.com, but can't seem to find either of them....Where are they exactly?? :hmm:

Tx.

[ThirdEye]

http://www.postforum.com/forums/read.php?f=6&i=71141&t=71141 :wavey:

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