PDA

View Full Version : Games forum ?


BadSpleen
01-03-2007, 10:14 PM
I hate to be the guy that says this but as a person who tries (and I really mean try) to hone my modelling towards low poly, I feel there should be more rules to this thread of the forum.

Before I start, this is merely an idea/suggestion

I get the feeling that this isn't as much a games forum as a low poly forum. I do believe there is a difference.

The line I feel gets blurred here:-

I don't mean to pick on people, but what is the difference between a high poly render for a game, and a high poly render for the 3d stills forum ? I don't believe people come onto this forum for art from games, i believe they come here to critique MODELS for a game, not the latest FMV for a game, or models for that FMV

Is your model ACTUALLy for a game ? If you've made a model, is it actually going to be intergrated into a games engine, or is it a low poly model for that sake of it ?

The last thing I want to do is to try and make people feel they can'tpost on this forum, but many a time people have made a model, rendered it with global illumination, and then said it's for a game. I just get the feeling that the forum has become tainted by people rendering their models off with full beauty, yet as we all know, creating a model for a game is far more difficult than just making a beautiful render.

I hope people realise I'm not making a critic to any work on this forum, just wondering if this forum is where it belongs. This comes from me being annoyed that alot of models featured/shown on this forum are extremely high poly meshes, and I always prided (is that a word ?!?) this forum on showing the most impressive models, with minimum poly count.

Chilli

Flewda
01-04-2007, 01:00 AM
Time's have changed man.

Extremely low poly models are not something you are going to see much anymore (unless it's for a handheld/cell phone game). Engines can handle rediculous amounts of polygons now, and although you want to make them as low as possible, and as efficient as possible, you have the ability to go a little more nuts with polygons now. In addition to this, so many amazing models you see now in games most likely have Normal Maps, and a lot of times, these normal maps are created from a high res source, which will bake the normal map, ambient occlusion, and so on. This high poly model is extremely important to the normal map creation that will go on the low poly, which will make that low poly, in-game model kick so much ass. In my opinion, a high res model for that purpose in a game can be as important as the game asset itself.

As for the beauty renders, sure, it would be great if everyone could throw their work into an engine real quick and get some nice in-game shots. But let's face it, not everyone can do that whenever they feel like, or even be able to get the results they want to get with a released game (with mod capabilities) that's out right now. Frankly, there aren't all that many games with modding out that really utilizes normal/spec maps to their true potential (that I've really come across anyway) so the next best thing is to render it out in Max/Maya. A lot of people that post their work here is to get comments/crits, so that they can improve, so that they can get a job in the gaming industry. If I made a large scene, and didn't have an engine to throw it into that I liked, should I just take a Print Screen of my 3D Viewport so that the render isn't fancy? Of course not, I should make it look as great as I can, to show any potential employer what that scene/character/object is capable of looking like. Sure, there aren't any games that really can do global illumination, and some of the other fancy tricks that 3D apps can do, but I promise you they aren't all that far away from becoming reality.

I see what you are saying, but keep in mind, everybody else on this forum is trying just as hard to hone in on their skills as you are (Whether it's high or low res). And I think as long as people on this great forum continue to critique constructively when someone posts, and to offer some help, I think this forum will continue to do just fine.

/end rant

ArchangelTalon
01-04-2007, 02:39 AM
I don't think everyone has the know-how, time or the readies to rig, animate and compile every model they make into a games engine just to get screenies to show it off. A lot of the work here is for portfolio purposes and has no real requirement to be inside a games engine just for the sake of it, especially as screen-grabs look near identical to in-game nowadays. Also a lot of work here is aimed at high-end engines that aren't publically available yet.

A models' final presentation method shouldn't determine whether it's games art or "low poly art" (which as far as I've been aware is the same thing) just because it's not a screenshot of the model in a game. It's not even just a case of "creating a model for a game is far more difficult than just making a beautiful render", a crap model is going to look crap however it's presented. No matter what stops you pull out in a render, we'll all be able to spot a crap model. It's not people trying to pass off their work as something better than it is, it's just showing it off to it's full potential.

The only thing that should define the work here as games art is the fact it's intended use is that it would/could be used in a game, which all of the models here comply with.

If you were a designer showing off work in your portfolio that you had printed in a magazine, would you cut the page out of the magazine or would you print it out yourself and take steps with your presentation to make sure it looked it's very best?

As for the polycount... well, polycount for games is going up, and that can't really be helped. I still think most of the models here are in the 2.5k-10k range, which I would still consider a low poly mesh. Granted, there are a lot of high poly meshes that are used for normal maps, but that's now part of the games art workflow and as such has every night to be here.

PenguinVisuals
01-04-2007, 08:14 PM
Well, today game 3D modeling is really not as simple as before. First of all you're expected to be able to model with relatively low res. Then you're expected to be able to paint your own textures. And the recent big thing is you're expected to be able to generate normal maps for your model.

Normal maps. With this comes the whole reason you have to be able to model in high resolution. No one use their high resolution in game but it is what we generate the normal maps from.

Really, the gap between 3D stills/movies and 3D games are closing. You can't expect to come to this forum and see 500 triangle models being the majority anymore. You will still see those for hand-helds like PSP/DS but not for console/PC.

Angroc
01-07-2007, 04:42 PM
Even though I agree that game visuals and pre-render visuals are closing in, I still find it a pity. I think there's a unique beauty in low-poly art, and how you have to use all your texturing skills to achieve the best result. To me, it will sad when thats gone, and making graphics for pre-render and games will be same. For example, I find texturing for non pre-render much funnier, as you texture in shadows and details that would in pre.render be in the model and in the bump map. and also, at the same time, with these changes, more manpower is needed.

Kevin-Killjoy
01-08-2007, 10:02 PM
I'm a bit worried that a lot of students are creating models that look like they would go into game engines from 3 or 4 years ago. I'd rather they were looking ahead a bit and designing models that are for the near future (i.e. characters with 5-30k polys), and focusing on core skills that will help them with that. Game lighting techniques are changing too. GI is starting to be done realtime. Plus, y'know, I like it when you render your realtime models with GI!

Distant Skies - I left pity behind when the game industry moved from PS1 to PS2. Five years of expertise down the drain in the blink of an eye! :) Tempus Fugit.

Johny
01-09-2007, 11:01 AM
"I'm a bit worried that a lot of students are creating models that look like they would go into game engines from 3 or 4 years ago. I'd rather they were looking ahead a bit and designing models that are for the near future (i.e. characters with 5-30k polys), and focusing on core skills that will help them with that. Game lighting techniques are changing too. GI is starting to be done realtime. Plus, y'know, I like it when you render your realtime models with GI!"

this is why most "students" that come out of the forge are mediocre. That is the worse thing you could say , id say learn the basics first, learn to paint good difuse maps , etc before trying to make "nest gen" ( that would most likely be 30000 tris models full of polywaste rendered in GI ) stuff.
Its like trying to paint the mona lise without ever even drawn with pencil and paper.

andrei313
01-09-2007, 11:22 AM
Game art is still art. If you can render your model with a nice light setup then you should. This is how you present your work, not a viewport with the Windows in it so we can see that music you are listening too and what was the time when you took that. I would worry about this when I'll see models here that use procedural textures and plugins like Hair&Fur... you know... stuff that really can't go in a game.

Angroc
01-09-2007, 02:17 PM
well, what is you people general view on this constant inprovent in the technical aspect of it? do you think its kinda sad that game art will be less and less unique in comparison to other 3D art forms?

Johny
01-09-2007, 02:49 PM
technical stuff dont make art. game art isnt getting more technicall infact its getting more free , normal maps, etc allow artist to go further in transmiting and idea in my opinion . I consider as fun making current gen assets ( normal maps ) to old gen ( difuse )

TimAppleby
01-09-2007, 04:54 PM
game art isnt getting more technicall infact its getting more free , normal maps, etc allow artist to go further in transmiting and idea in my opinion .

Yes its the liberation of game artists. Tight restraints and old school technique will always be fun, but surely every artist wants to express themsevles through their work, and by having more freedom they are able to expess themselves all the more accurately.
:D

Psyk0
01-09-2007, 05:27 PM
Agree with Johny and Tim. Besides the "old" style is bound to come back on portable systems at some point, it's just a natural evolution.

Angroc
01-09-2007, 05:56 PM
delete this please

Kevin-Killjoy
01-09-2007, 08:21 PM
I agree, they must master the basics. Most of the student work that I have is graduate work in portfolios. It's not the absolute beginners I'm thinking about, but students nearing graduation (I didn't make any of that clear before at all, sorry!) This is beacause I've been to 5 or 6 graduate shows in the past year, and saw about 500 CV's last year. It seems the reasons why most students come out mediocre relate to some of these things:

1) the schools let pretty much anyone in who can pay the fee
2) the teachers don't teach adequately, and possibly don't have the required skills themselves (this is a VERY common complaint among students from many universities)
3) the courses cover too many topics, including the percieved irrelevant math and programming
4) Some of the students lack focus, and don't come to grips with any one core discipline, and to be fair, some students lack committment.

Having said all that, some, a minority manage to come out with some amazing stuff, and those that do, often have learned the current techniques and skills necessary to make the games that are being worked on right now. They have pushed themselves, challenged their abilites, worked very hard, and it pays off. At the moment, here in the UK, these graduates get hired very quickly.

Ad astra per aspera!

Cherrio

-Killjoy

Angroc
01-09-2007, 08:33 PM
Well, being a student myself (after half a year that is), and since you started talking about you seen so many before, could you pretty please leave some critique here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=4119056#post4119056)? That would be so appreciated :)

(hope this isnt a rude thing to do, if so, I am sorry :S)

Kevin-Killjoy
01-09-2007, 09:04 PM
Lol, ok. BTW of the 500-ish cv's I saw last year, i (and another artist) interviewed about 25 and hired about 10 (and a few declined interviews or took jobs elsewhere after we intervied them).

JaMo
01-09-2007, 09:34 PM
This thread has some good but conflicting info in it. Im trying to break into the game industry but not sure how to present my game models im creating. Im currently working on a 10K(no normal maps) character but im not totally sure about a few things.

1. Do I hardware render it or software render it?
2. When im creating my textures should I turn the lighting off and paint all my shadows in or should I paint mostly color(with some shadows) and let the hardware lights do some of the work?
3. Should I bother with any models lower then 5k?
4. If I do set up my lights am I allowed whatever I want or do I just use one directional light that seems common in games.
5. I have alot of high res stuff in my portfolio which seems to be hurting me more then helping. should i take it out?(i get the "you have some great stuff but we dont have a spot for you now" rejections)


One of my main concerns is that when/if I do get hired what if my work flow and techniques are completely wrong from whats in the industry and im not up to par with what they expect.

Kevin-Killjoy
01-09-2007, 10:03 PM
1. If you are worried about conflicting advice, do both.

2. Realtime shadows are becoming the norm, but are still more expensive. Either one is fine.

3. Game models should still have as little geometry as necessary. Number of polys really isn't as important as the way those polys are used, as Johny said. 4000 wasted polys in a 5000 poly model looks bad. An elegant 100 poly model looks good. An elegant 5000 poly model looks very good.

4. games usually (not always) have much more sophisticated lighting than that. Just light your scene the way you want to light it, after all, some engines will pre-render the lighting info into the textures.

5. It won't be hurting you if it's good and relevant work. Take out the weakest pieces from your portfolio. If the high res stuff is all arch-viz, or something that doesn't seem to relevant to games, I'd pare it down.

6. and my own number 6. Post your model up in these forums and get some valuable advice from some of the amazingly talented and generous artists here. The advice I get on some of my work is indespensible. Also, maybe try and get some of your models working in a game engine.

-Killjoy

JaMo
01-09-2007, 10:27 PM
6. and my own number 6. Post your model up in these forums and get some valuable advice from some of the amazingly talented and generous artists here. The advice I get on some of my work is indespensible. Also, maybe try and get some of your models working in a game engine.

-Killjoy

Thanks for the great info. As for number 6 I have posted just about everything ive ever done in one of the forums at one time or another for crits(I have something up now:)).

Also when I say high res characters im talking like movie high res and not game high resolution.

Anyway thanks again!

TheArgylekid
01-10-2007, 12:17 AM
I find I'm just doing viewport grabs and cropping them to look nice lately. Normals in maya look better to me in the high quality viewport then they do when I render them with the normalbump plugin. Honestly, it's all about showing your work the best possible way you can. It doesn't matter if its rendered or whatever.


Haha killjoy, you pretty much described the art institute exactly with those points you made.

CGTalk Moderation
01-10-2007, 12:17 AM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.