LW vs. Messiah

[isobarxx]

Nice. That's a huge time saving.

[Gitch]

Wow!! What a big difference in time and looks.. Thanks for the test I'am shocked.. Was that done in 9?

[Wegg]

Yep thats 9.

[Gitch]

That blows Lightwave out of the water.. I guess I'am going to have to use Messiah more often. To bad they don't have fprime for Messiah or better yet messiahs own fprime.

[stooch]

man i keep on going to messiah and its nice and all but the interaction is just scaring me away back towards maya. the weird edit sphere, the weird zoom distortion when i zoom out with the lmb, the fact how i cant zoom out and navigate in object view mode... its just so painful to interact that i inevitable end up in maya. I dont even give LW much of my time these days. i would pay to be able to interact with messiah EXACTLY the way i interact with maya. through the entire interface. i keep on trying to zoom maya style and end up like 2 miles away from my object in some weird ass wide angle distorted view... so annoying.

[Wegg]

Have you tried customising Messiah's keyboard shortcuts to mimic Maya's?

[stooch]

yes

they work in some limited areas.

but not all. and does nothing to fix the item view navigation.

and they dont apply to spread sheet/curve editor views.

[Wegg]

You could always animate in Maya and render in Messiah. No need to look at curves or muck around with odd interface controls then.

[stooch]

true. but then you might want to reposition lights etc in the scene, something like navigation should be the top priority since you really cant work around it.. anyway sorry to take it off topic the renders are a huge improvement in speed and quality! thats for sure.

[Wegg]

Man its not THAT bad. Compared to putting up with slow/low quality render times or high per-cpu/per-year licensing fees with other rendering solutions. . . a little pain in positioning lights to me seems pretty minor.

[numberEleven]

Hey Wegg? What version of windows are you using? Are you using some kind of skin for the iface?

Those render times are shorter, it would be ideal to have an identical camera position though. I dont even remember exactly how to do that, though I was told how before. Does anyone remember how to get a camera pos from lw into messiah? Has anyone matched camera settings between lw and messiah? (I think so, I just forgot if there was a null trick or something . . .)

The fact that its doing some antialiasing too is pretty awesome. Makes me think of that xbox360 racing game, and how its scrubbing each frame like seven times or something, amazing!

-Garin

[Wegg]

You could just use Messiah as a plugin to Lightwave and control the camera from Messiah to get an exact match.

But Lightwave didn't even come close. Matching the camera angle and position of the trees wouldn't matter enough for me to bother.

[Wegg]

First Lightwave.

I did everything I could to get the render time down but still maintain a quality image. Whenever I use LW I'm always plaged by these little black dots. You can see them on the wings. Never have figured out a way around it other than just cranking up settings and using motion blur.

http://www.eggington.net/%7Ewegg/RenderTests/LWF18.png

Not too bad though.

Now Messiah.

Same settings, surface properties etc.

http://www.eggington.net/%7Ewegg/RenderTests/F18ms.png

No black dots. A cleaner image and. . . Dare I say a SLIGHT increase in render speed . . . :D

[gsuttor]

man i keep on going to messiah and its nice and all but the interaction is just scaring me away back towards maya. the weird edit sphere, the weird zoom distortion when i zoom out with the lmb, the fact how i cant zoom out and navigate in object view mode... its just so painful to interact that i inevitable end up in maya. I dont even give LW much of my time these days. i would pay to be able to interact with messiah EXACTLY the way i interact with maya. through the entire interface. i keep on trying to zoom maya style and end up like 2 miles away from my object in some weird ass wide angle distorted view... so annoying.

That zoom distortion just sounds like the old grid size issue.
Use the "," and "]." keys to change zoom & "[" and "]" for grid size.
Sorry if I've miss interperated your problems.

[stooch]

Man its not THAT bad. Compared to putting up with slow/low quality render times or high per-cpu/per-year licensing fees with other rendering solutions. . . a little pain in positioning lights to me seems pretty minor.

i would agree with you if messiah had integrated render farm manager. even then, if im sitting for 10 hours straight working ona scene, i would like it to work fluidly and not get in my way. for me this is a big deal.

[stooch]

That zoom distortion just sounds like the old grid size issue.
Use the "," and "]." keys to change zoom & "[" and "]" for grid size.
Sorry if I've miss interperated your problems.

im used to zooming out the same way i zoom out in LW, however it seems taht in LW you are actually DOLLYING back and forth (thats what happens if you zoom in messiah with RMB)

so the functionality is there, its just there is no way to adjust it to work like LW or maya.

[Wegg]

i would agree with you if messiah had integrated render farm manager. even then, if im sitting for 10 hours straight working ona scene, i would like it to work fluidly and not get in my way. for me this is a big deal.

I still don't understand what is wrong with BNR. . .

And if it takes you 10 hours to light a scene then your really doing something wrong.

[stooch]

I still don't understand what is wrong with BNR. . .

And if it takes you 10 hours to light a scene then your really doing something wrong.

lol, i said WORKING ON A SCENE. not lighting it. Fact of the matter is, its a pita to go back and forth from a really nice interaction to a relatively shitty one... Just cant really put it any other way...

nothing is wrong with BNR, i would get it just for messiah if it was worth it and i knew that i would be putting it to real use, otherwise id rather use the many free render managers and the ones i already own with software that is less painful to use...

[Wegg]

lol, i said WORKING ON A SCENE. not lighting it.

But didn't we just say that you wouldn't have to "Work on a scene" if you were to lay everything out in Maya? Its just material tweaks and AA settings at that point.

[stooch]

well the simple fact is, if i lay it out in maya, i will render it in maya as well. There is no point in firing up messiah unless im going to do serious work in it. And im very sad to say that it feels too much like a sacrifice for the sake of messiah, you know what i mean? (probably not)

i agree that messiah blows away LW btw, i wouldnt say the same about mental ray though.

[bugzilla]

I'm glad to hear that other people thought the navigation system in Messiah just feels weird. When I first got Messiah I kept posting about these things but people treated me like I was crazy or something. The Messiah interface is just plain weird. I hate alot of things about Lightwave, but I know where the tools are and I can get things done in it. That's what's really important. I also have access to necessary plugins with Lightwave. I wish the renderer was faster, but every package has it's drawbacks. I check back at the Messiah website every so often but other than a bug fix now and then there doesn't seem to be any development going on. I have been searching for many years for a complete character animation package that works FOR ME, but they all seem to have at least one major flaw. So far Lightwave is the only thing that actually works for me. I can get things accomplished in it so I'm sticking with it warts and all.

[Tama]

You're not alone. I spoke up years ago about my dislike of the the messiah gui and felt like a clubbed baby seal afterwards. For me at least, I find navigating through messiah a total pita.

And I'm with Stooch on this one as well. If I'm already in Maya then I'd be using Mentalray or PRman as opposed to traveling back into Messiah to render. Messiah's renderer still seems to have some real problems rendering 5 point poly subd's properly. Plus you have options for hair. End of mini rant.

I do like the trees and the render times are really interesting. Quite a significant difference.

[Gitch]

Here is a point to bring up you are comparing apples to oranges here. Maya cost way more then messiah or lightwave and the learning curve is very steep. Why do you think there are so many Gnomon DVDS out there? Sure it is popular but at the end of the day it still is up to the artist on what it looks like and to get the job done..

Just my thought.

[dobermunk]

From memory, I can't quite follow the claim that the interface hasn't been changed, or that there is no development being done. The list is considerable - from alternative edit spheres (though the continuity of navigation in ie curve editor is still being critized) to a personal request of mine - ctl-toggle channels. morph shapes can be activated via left / right or all, curves have been updated, armatures added....
I just can't let that claim stand.
More are on the list, of course - including dockable windows, traditional selection schemes and conisistent multiple selection editing. None of these items has ever kept me from working fairly efficiently though.
And I apologize for the way you've felt you've been treated - it shouldn't happen. pmG has had in the past a strongheaded way of dealing with things. They mostly have a good reason to be so - it took me ages to understand the power of the way keys can be managed and initially wanted my "LW simplicity". Its give and take.
Have you had a look lately at the state of the software?

[Wegg]

If you were to buy Maya. . . and render in Maya with Mental or PRMan. . . then you will just have to fork over the per-cpu license fees associated with that. PLENTY of studios do that. There are also plenty of studios that take advantage of Maya's "power" for animation but still render in Lightwave because of the unlimited render nodes and quality. Nothing wrong with that either. Pretty damn smart. To me the next logical step is to render in a package that is 10X faster than Lightwave. If you know and love Maya. . . then animating in Maya and rendering in Messiah sounds like a really good solution to me.

[pequod]

Although I'm still fairly new to the program, I have to agree with those who find Messiah's window navigation totally frustrating. The sudden extreme perspective, the weird manipulator, it's a barrier to animation which is odd considering this is a dedicated animation program.

While I'm ranting, the automatic bone weighting seems so powerful at first, but after spending hours correcting the weighting effects you don't want, it be quicker to do it with weight painting from the beginning. I do love muscle bones though and the rendering does seem very impressive.

[Wegg]

Oh wow. . . pequod. . . Cool to see you in Messiah land.

Maybe you guys are missing something.

If you want Lightwave navigation for trucking around your scene. . . don't use the magnifying glass. Thats not what its for. Thats a stupid Lightwave idea that makes no sense to me. A Magnifying glass is for MAGNIFYING things. Zooming in. . . zooming out. Not moving in and out.

If you want to truck around your scene Lightwave style you left-click drag on the move icon on the top right or Ctrl-Alt-Left click drag. If you want to move up and down on the screen plane then RIGHT-click-drag on the move button or Ctrl-Alt-Right click drag.

When you want to focus on something. . . middle click on it and tap "a" on the keyboard. Left Click drag on the rotate icon or Alt-Left click drag will orbit you around that selection. Right click will bank you.

[stooch]

Here is a point to bring up you are comparing apples to oranges here. Maya cost way more then messiah or lightwave and the learning curve is very steep. Why do you think there are so many Gnomon DVDS out there? Sure it is popular but at the end of the day it still is up to the artist on what it looks like and to get the job done..

Just my thought.

lets not turn a huge advantage that maya has into a liability, the fact that maya has gnomon tutorials is a huge bonus to owning maya. I only wish messiah had as much learning material!

[Bugpoo]

Wow! This thread totally went off track :sad: It kind of discourages people from posting stuff if all you're going to get is negative messiah feedback that doesn't pertain to your post.

On that note, nice work Wegg! There is a huge difference in quality on the renders and I'm amazed at messiah's speed.

[TylerZambori]

Oh wow. . . pequod. . . Cool to see you in Messiah land.

Maybe you guys are missing something.

If you want Lightwave navigation for trucking around your scene. . . don't use the magnifying glass. Thats not what its for. Thats a stupid Lightwave idea that makes no sense to me. A Magnifying glass is for MAGNIFYING things. Zooming in. . . zooming out. Not moving in and out.

If you want to truck around your scene Lightwave style you left-click drag on the move icon on the top right or Ctrl-Alt-Left click drag. If you want to move up and down on the screen plane then RIGHT-click-drag on the move button or Ctrl-Alt-Right click drag.

When you want to focus on something. . . middle click on it and tap "a" on the keyboard. Left Click drag on the rotate icon or Alt-Left click drag will orbit you around that selection. Right click will bank you.

yeah, trying to move around with the magnifying glass is funky. I'm just beginning to familiarize myself with the interface, but I found that just fine, in the manual. I don't know what gives. Recently somebody complained that the info on each update gets lost when the next update comes out. No, it's all there in the manual!

Anyway, thanks very much for posting those examples. I wonder how messiah's renderer
compares to fprime, or to other name-brand renderers like mental ray, in terms of time and quality?

[stooch]

mental ray is great when it comes to time and quality. I really cant fault it. The only drawback is price but then again, you get what you pay for and in my case i dont pay for render nodes, if i need a renderfarm ill rent one or hand over my scene files to the client and let them worry about it. Overall i find mentalray so fast that typically i can just tweak for an acceptable time/quality and just knock it out on my machine (afterall im not doing feature film stuff yet, just motion graphics)

Messiah does have the potential to be a standalone render solution, but as many peiople ahve stated, there is no shortage of those in the market. What we need is a solid app that gives us solid animation and interaction, rendering is not a priority IMO. Hence me bitching about the overall interface and navigation quirks. I think you will find many people who will find a reason to USE messiah if they can adjust it to suit their navigation styles. I think MODO and XSI are a great example of that notion . They are a great example of software makers who are trying their best to fit into a pipeline instead of re-defining it. As you can see, both modo and XSI are rapidly gaining acceptance because of these efforts. I feel that messiah is playing the same ballgame so they should really look at their peers for inspiration.

Unlike many feature requests out there, this one is not reaching for the stars! I dont think I am alone in this; nor am I asking for too much. In fact im not asking for anything, I am merely stating why I am reluctant to use messiah more often. Even in the face of these great render tests.

[TylerZambori]

mental ray is great when it comes to time and quality. I really cant fault it. The only drawback is price but then again, you get what you pay for and in my case i dont pay for render nodes, if i need a renderfarm ill rent one or hand over my scene files to the client and let them worry about it. Overall i find mentalray so fast that typically i can just tweak for an acceptable time/quality and just knock it out on my machine (afterall im not doing feature film stuff yet, just motion graphics)

Messiah does have the potential to be a standalone render solution, but as many peiople ahve stated, there is no shortage of those in the market. What we need is a solid app that gives us solid animation and interaction, rendering is not a priority IMO. Hence me bitching about the overall interface and navigation quirks. I think you will find many people who will find a reason to USE messiah if they can adjust it to suit their navigation styles. I think MODO and XSI are a great example of that notion . They are a great example of software makers who are trying their best to fit into a pipeline instead of re-defining it. As you can see, both modo and XSI are rapidly gaining acceptance because of these efforts. I feel that messiah is playing the same ballgame so they should really look at their peers for inspiration.

Unlike many feature requests out there, this one is not reaching for the stars! I dont think I am alone in this; nor am I asking for too much. In fact im not asking for anything, I am merely stating why I am reluctant to use messiah more often. Even in the face of these great render tests.

Hi Dimitri,

I can't comment so well on your particular complaint yet, but I will say that I have decided to go the route of using a group of programs all together, and all with different interfaces. It's daunting to even think of it, ugh, I have to learn the interfaces of messiah, LW, XSI eventually, silo, zbrush, and vue. I think Vue is big on cuztomizing itself to your favorite main app, but I am the one who has to adapt to the interfaces of all these different programs, and remember how to use them all.

Also, XSI only very recently added that crosswalk feature. It's a very new thing.

Thanks for the thoughts about mental ray. I have it in XSI FND, but for limited nodes of course.

On a side note about LW (not just to you), I noticed that the magnifying glass icon in LW is also for zooming in and out, but it seems much less smooth and less controllable, than in messiah.

[TylerZambori]

I mean, I'm the one that chose to get all these programs, so I'm the one that has to deal with it. I decided I preferred that, for myself, than hoping to get everything I wanted from one main app. I'm just not used to the idea of expecting the others to be like the main one - for example, to expect Silo to mold itself to be like xsi. I wish I didn't have to deal with so many, but I chose that for reasons I think are good, so I have to take it easy in the learning process.

[stooch]

silo does mold itself! it behaves just like maya....

[Gitch]

lets not turn a huge advantage that maya has into a liability, the fact that maya has gnomon tutorials is a huge bonus to owning maya. I only wish messiah had as much learning material!

Yeah like I was saying the learning curve is steep on Maya you have to take out a loan to learn the thing i'am not saying. You have got to admit for the price of Messiah it is a bargain.

it should be interesting to see since Autodesk aquired Maya where the market turns who is going to be left standing. I think there is room for software like messiah in the market.

[stooch]

nope i disagree with that wholeheartedly, maya pays for itself. you will realise this the more you use it in production. Its not about money since it all boils down to chump change when you consider how much money you can earn int he long run. its the best app to learn, for many reasons... Hell i spent more money on my car then i ever spent on maya. We have threads here how people want to pay MORE for messiah to get it more polished... you have to understand that you get what you pay for in the end...

[Gitch]

What is the upgrade cost or license on Maya? maybe someday..I still like to model in Lightwave and Zbrush.

[stooch]

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=7695485

[Grgeon]

*Attempts to bring it back on topic*

Cool info Wegg. We are one of those considering a maya/lw pipeline. These results are intriguing though and we will now look into considering messiah as well.

Thanks and keep sharing the knowledge.

-George

[TylerZambori]

Wow! This thread totally went off track :sad: It kind of discourages people from posting stuff if all you're going to get is negative messiah feedback that doesn't pertain to your post.

yeah, I hope the discussion goes back to rendering in messiah.

On that note, nice work Wegg! There is a huge difference in quality on the renders and I'm amazed at messiah's speed.

I am too, for sure.

[kursad_pileksuz]

Messiah render is very capable, once messiah supports quantity objects rendering (things like fur+hair) it will be complete for the price, at least for the workstation version. All the render engines out there are more expensive than messiah workstation.

Once you start using multiple applications (most of them are full apps) for various reasons, things get very complicated because all those tools are designed for standalone pipelines ie lightwave or maya, also it gets very expensive. I mean messiah+lightwave+maya+mentalray= alot of money.

If you want modular approach, which i myself am a fan of, we need modular tools. I do not think that maya or lightwave are designed to be modular( playing nice with others). Especially i know that newtek changes .lws format frequently nowadays. How can you trust modularity between these apps?.


My main complaint about messiah render is the way it handles triangles, it is very painful to look at rendered polygon triangles in messiah render. If you have alot of them it looks very bad(Good aa solves many sometimes thou) . To me once this is fixed i personally would use it in all the production needs i have. Otherwise one does not have time and precision to model everything in quads all the time. This is not absolute, but it would be nice to support smoothing of triangles in nicer fashion (i am talking about smoothing angles).

[LightWuv]

Nice, and thanks for the comparison, Wegg! :)

Can I ask why you choose to render with the classic camera in Lightwave? Is the perspective camera giving you even higher render times, or more black dots?

Wuv

[Gitch]

Messiah render is very capable, once messiah supports quantity objects rendering (things like fur+hair) it will be complete for the price, at least for the workstation version. All the render engines out there are more expensive than messiah workstation.

Once you start using multiple applications (most of them are full apps) for various reasons, things get very complicated because all those tools are designed for standalone pipelines ie lightwave or maya, also it gets very expensive. I mean messiah+lightwave+maya+mentalray= alot of money.

If you want modular approach, which i myself am a fan of, we need modular tools. I do not think that maya or lightwave are designed to be modular( playing nice with others). Especially i know that newtek changes .lws format frequently nowadays. How can you trust modularity between these apps?.




My main complaint about messiah render is the way it handles triangles, it is very painful to look at rendered polygon triangles in messiah render. If you have alot of them it looks very bad(Good aa solves many sometimes thou) . To me once this is fixed i personally would use it in all the production needs i have. Otherwise one does not have time and precision to model everything in quads all the time. This is not absolute, but it would be nice to support smoothing of triangles in nicer fashion (i am talking about smoothing angles).



Very good points you brought up!!

[Gitch]

Nice, and thanks for the comparison, Wegg! :)

Can I ask why you choose to render with the classic camera in Lightwave? Is the perspective camera giving you even higher render times, or more black dots?

Wuv

Perspective camera is suppose to render in less time.

[Wegg]

Nice, and thanks for the comparison, Wegg! :)

Can I ask why you choose to render with the classic camera in Lightwave? Is the perspective camera giving you even higher render times, or more black dots?

Wuv

Perspective camera? Uhh. . . I had no idea. It looks like the Perspective camera renders transparency way better/faster than before. I also discovered that the PLD stuff was what was causing some of the quality issues. Switching to the Classic Reconstruction Filter resolved that but also negated any of the speed gains from the Perspective camera. :-(
http://www.eggington.net/%7Ewegg/RenderTests/LWPerspectiveCamera.png

An improvement though! In both speed and quality. Thanks for that tip.

(Man. People complain about Messiah's settings being complex. . . Lightwave is . . . yea. . . )

I do agree with what Kursad said about the need for better quality on geometry that isn't perfect. These purchased models are often created in Maya and the number of triangles and Ngons pose quite a challenge for Messiah's renderer. Having to re-work those problem areas is a pain. Especially since these purchased models already have all their UVs and textures in place.

[Gitch]

Wegg,

did you try a test between the perspective camera in LW and Messiah? Probably Messiah is still faster..

[Wegg]

That is with the Perspective camera. Says it right in the info box. "Camera Type: Perspective" That with Classic, Enhanced Low made a much better image but its still 10:45 vs. Messiah's 1:04.

[Tama]

Why are you using radiosity on the LW jet render? Maybe I missed something?:shrug:

[Wegg]

Well because I wanted that "look" of it being light from both a directional "sun" light and the sky. I'm not about to start spinning lights "old school" style. And a big massive area light above the object wasn't cutting it. Not when I get GI in Messiah for a fraction of the time.

[Gitch]

That is with the Perspective camera. Says it right in the info box. "Camera Type: Perspective" That with Classic, Enhanced Low made a much better image but its still 10:45 vs. Messiah's 1:04.

Yes I can see it is the perspective camera I'am not blind (maybe that did not come out right the way I phrased it in the thread), I was just wondering the comparison which you have stated and which is still a sizeable difference.

[Tama]

Well because I wanted that "look" of it being light from both a directional "sun" light and the sky. I'm not about to start spinning lights "old school" style. And a big massive area light above the object wasn't cutting it. Not when I get GI in Messiah for a fraction of the time.

I see. What radiosity settings were you using for the messiah render?

[Wegg]

Monte Carlo, 6 GI Samples, GI Depth 1, Auto Reduction on. By switching to the Classic AA setting I think I'm going to have to set the Messiah render to an AA level of 4. That added 35 seconds to the render time. But now the GI quality is kind of overkill. So if I lower that to 5. . . oops that increases render time. HA HA.

[Wegg]

It looks like I can switch between GI Samples of 6 -> 8 and keep the same render time. 9 slows things way down and 5 also slows things down. I guess its harder for the AA part of Messiah to deal with the extra noise. . . and with 9 its just more rays that is slowing it down. With no GI and just a directional light the plane renders in 12 seconds in Messiah and 9 seconds in Lightwave. So if your happy with renders that don't have that GI "Look" Lightwave seems to be faster. As soon as you throw in raytraced soft shadows and GI. . . Messiah kicks butt.

[Dann-O]

Thanks for the GI settings. As a new Messiah user it is very helpful. Godo to know I have such great renderign tools now. I too would like to have messiah handle triangles and Ngons better. Particuarly for metanurbs. Boom!! but I can work with it. Havign a lot of fun with it and posted my first messiah render in the 3d still gallery. Messiah is not an option for software used in the pulldown menu. Just thought I would let you know.

[Gitch]

Thanks for your time testing Wegg, very interesting to say the least..

[LightWuv]

Wegg,

Thanks for checking that out!

Wuv

[SpikeWorx]

My problem with the navigation system in Messiah is, that it still doesn´t feel right. The new sphere is more like a workaround. But I want a total replacement, not a workaround.
Just copy the behaviour and feeling of XSI or Maya edit sphere and Navigation 1:1. It can´t be that hard, can it?

The reason I left LW was the developer´s workaround mentality instead of fixing the problem itself. It seems they´re still working around things.
I hope that this will not be adopted by the Messiah team. It´s imo the wrong way.

[Wegg]

I think they over designed it. All the XSI and Maya ways of doing things are in there. But its under a cloud of all these other options that you have to keep in mind. (Right click, Left click, Where you grab it etc.) It used to be quite simple. But no one really "got it". So then all these other coordinate systems were introduced to satisfy everyone and we get the mess we have now.

Personally I love Animation Master's approach. Or even Wings3D for that matter. I hate Gizmoes. I should be able to see something, grab something. . . and have it move without me having to think about gimbal or world/parent/local. Christopher Lutz's rig just gives me goosebumps. Its just so damn cool.

I'm taking my own thread off topic. :-)

I don't like what is there as much as other programs I have used but I think those that don't use Messiah because of that one reason are missing out on so much. . .

[IRONIC3D]

I come from different packages background, and in a day to day work I use 2-3 different packages to do one thing. unifying the workflow is great when it's there, as it doesn't cut your mental workflow and just continue working. How ever most applications don't work this way or don't offer it. For me personnaly I never strive to change the navigation system nor the basic tranformation to match all the programs unless it was totally off. I try to keep the most basic things matched, orbit, pan and dolly matched to L, M and R.

Now I do agree that Messiah navigation system can get frustrating, along with a few quirks here and there, but the truth guys, so does every program, they all have their misfaults, and you all know that. True some programs lacking in severe areas and others are not that severe. And while I'm not having a problem dealing with program X or messiah for that matter in lets say navigation, it doesn't mean everyone else is like me and yes it should be addressed at some point in time. But the truth is guys your missing on allot while waiting for a fix for this or that. I'm saying this because when I started doing 3D that was on Imagine, and that was before the 90s :D and back then there was no interaction let alone features, and still we did allot of work. If your going to make a certin X feature get in your way of producing work, then you wont be getting anywhere far soon. About a month ago we landed this new job, 3 adds for a PnG product, and it was to be done mostly in Fusion5 for it's 3D, my boss didn't do any much work in Fusion5 3D since it was out and till that time he's been using v4, since it offered everything he wanted, but for these 3 projects it was Fusion5 job no doubt, Now that wasn't an easy ride, and the project was very demanding and extremly complex, plus the deadline was insane! and he was having a real hard time executing the project because of the weired navigation system, strange function curve relation to the view plus the difficulity of learning new tools while working on a high profile project! but my boss is like me, a retro bastard I must say :D he didn't let that stand in his way, and he went even further than what he was expected to do, he still complains about the navigation system, but he still is working and when he does, the complaining stops, because the job needs to be done, after a while he'll stop complaining, it's like learning a new language, you start with the filthy words first then you start enjoying literature.

The reason I'm telling you all this is because I want you all to understand that if your going to wait for something to happen for you to actually do something then you'll never do it, and if your doing it but you keep waving that annoying feature in your face all the time, then you'll hate what your doing. Try to alienate your self from all those negative thoughts and instead concentrate on how prodice a great work. Messiah is not a bad program, and it has soooooo much power hidden, and it does compete in many areas with the big boys, for a fraction of the price I may add. Some people keep hunting features and new releases and they don't realise that most major studios recently started upgrading their softwares to new releases. it was in the middle of StarWars 2 that ILM switched to XSI, untill that time, all the blockbuster movies ILM did was done in SI3D, and that's just crazy, SI3D is crazy and OLD! it's not even User Friendly, I know I've worked with it for years! Messiah is like heaven compared to SI3D. and while people where hunting, crying and cheering for Maya 7, Weta did LOTR 2 using Maya 5! Programs old or new, bulky, awkward or streamlined, they are all just tools, and for the best years of VFX Films or Animated ones, there weren't Fluids, nor SSS, nor SubD, nor nGons there was nothing, except pure passion, raw talent and the thrill to produce.

Messiah or any other tool are meant to help us produce work, and if any tool is standing between you and producing work, then ditch it and look for another tool that allows you to work without headech. 3D programns are getting cheap and some are as cheap as messiah, take your pick. But staying and torturing your self like this is not fair for you nor the developers of the tool. I'm not trying to cause a mass migration from messiah, on the contrary, I want more people to use it, but I and many others like me don't want to see it bashed like this every day and in every occasion! Simply because it's not that bad, it's not even close to bad! it's a great tool with many many great films in it's credit, but so far with all these comments it's showing to everyone who even come wondering here that it's incompetent product, useless. And that's not fair. If you guys are sticking here and not letting go of the product, dont' waste your time hunting for shortcomings and bugs and rob the developers face with it, work around it. XSI is not perfect, it's far far far away from it. I curse Avid many times a day, but I look for workarounds, and at the end I feel proud and more confident about my self, because I didn't give up, I found a way around the shortcomings, and that's what allows me to tackle more difficult jobs without bieng afraid. The client doesn't care about what software you've used, the auidience don't care what software you've used, what matters is the results on screen, if you can inspire them and have their jaw dropped then a job well done, if not try again harder.

Ok this thread is now officially OT :)

Cheers
I3D

[TylerZambori]

The reason I'm telling you all this is because I want you all to understand that if your going to wait for something to happen for you to actually do something then you'll never do it, and if your doing it but you keep waving that annoying feature in your face all the time, then you'll hate what your doing. Try to alienate your self from all those negative thoughts and instead concentrate on how prodice a great work. Messiah is not a bad program, and it has soooooo much power hidden, and it does compete in many areas with the big boys, for a fraction of the price I may add. Some people keep hunting features and new releases and they don't realise that most major studios recently started upgrading their softwares to new releases. it was in the middle of StarWars 2 that ILM switched to XSI, untill that time, all the blockbuster movies ILM did was done in SI3D, and that's just crazy, SI3D is crazy and OLD! it's not even User Friendly, I know I've worked with it for years! Messiah is like heaven compared to SI3D. and while people where hunting, crying and cheering for Maya 7, Weta did LOTR 2 using Maya 5! Programs old or new, bulky, awkward or streamlined, they are all just tools, and for the best years of VFX Films or Animated ones, there weren't Fluids, nor SSS, nor SubD, nor nGons there was nothing, except pure passion, raw talent and the thrill to produce.

Messiah or any other tool are meant to help us produce work, and if any tool is standing between you and producing work, then ditch it and look for another tool that allows you to work without headech. 3D programns are getting cheap and some are as cheap as messiah, take your pick. But staying and torturing your self like this is not fair for you nor the developers of the tool. I'm not trying to cause a mass migration from messiah, on the contrary, I want more people to use it, but I and many others like me don't want to see it bashed like this every day and in every occasion!

Amen! Thank you Ironic3D.



Simply because it's not that bad, it's not even close to bad! it's a great tool with many many great films in it's credit, but so far with all these comments it's showing to everyone who even come wondering here that it's incompetent product, useless. And that's not fair.

No, it isn't fair. And not on every topic that comes up!


If you guys are sticking here and not letting go of the product, dont' waste your time hunting for shortcomings and bugs and rob the developers face with it, work around it. XSI is not perfect, it's far far far away from it. I curse Avid many times a day, but I look for workarounds, and at the end I feel proud and more confident about my self, because I didn't give up, I found a way around the shortcomings, and that's what allows me to tackle more difficult jobs without bieng afraid. The client doesn't care about what software you've used, the auidience don't care what software you've used, what matters is the results on screen, if you can inspire them and have their jaw dropped then a job well done, if not try again harder.

Ok this thread is now officially OT :)

Cheers
I3D

Thank you very mcuh Ironic3D for a thoughtful post on the subject.

[SpikeWorx]

I think they over designed it. All the XSI and Maya ways of doing things are in there. But its under a cloud of all these other options that you have to keep in mind.

Wegg,. it´s is not about that, it´s about responsiveness, behaviour and feeling of it.
It´s just way easier for me to navigate and use the edit sphere in XSI or Maya than it is to simulate these Navigation Systems in Messiah.
It feels clunky in Messiah. That´s just like it is for me.
Messiah is very, let´s call it static. Not as smooth as Maya or XSI in its navigation.
No, I´m not talking about OpenGL Viewport Smoothness.
E.g. the weird behaviour of Armatures and its interface parts (which could be so much improved) and the 'static' feeling of the edit sphere.
It´s all about smoothness and feeling for me.
That´s something where Messiah has to improve.

[stooch]

While ironic brings up many great points. i think the assumption that anyone or me in particular are WAITING for something is completely baseless. Im not waiting for anyone or anything, very happy with maya and lw and modo. Its just that i get this urge to fire up messiah and use it for a project and find that its just too much of a sacrifice when i could be using something that gets it right. and i feel that its my obligation to voice this, not about bashing the program at all. i dont get it, why would anyone, EVER say that im bashing messiah for the sake of it? havent i been here long enough for it to be obvious that im not a troll?

[Grgeon]

Is this the right thread to do it in though?

-George

[stooch]

no its not, sorry.

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