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Bobo
11-03-2010, 10:54 AM
Yes, it shows all CPU usage.

I am using PRT volume (via mesher for pflow) and using voxel mode for rendering. And at rendering, it still uses 15% CPU usage? Is PRT volume limitation at rendering too?

PS : I just noticed when it comes "rendering pass for light" (in voxel mode for PRT volume) CPU usage goes 80% upto and goes down and goes up again. But it happens fast with up and down.

There you go. "Rendering Pass For Light" IS the rendering phase of voxel rendering. If you are using a Filter Radius > 1, it will slow things down since that part of voxel rendering is not well multi-threaded. The processing of the PRT Volume particles before the rendering is mostly single-threaded. The sorting for each light is multi-threaded - that might be the first 80% spike you see.

In short, voxel rendering in 1.6.0 is as slow as it was in 1.5.0. No change there. Particle rendering on the other hand is up to 8 times faster on 8 cores (in the drawing phase, obviously).

Bobo
11-03-2010, 10:55 AM
If it calculates particles at render time for outside camera particles too, Is it possible to calculate particles which are within camera frustrum? (i.e. like mentalray "Use placeholder for objects" feature)


Think about this: what will happen to volumetric shading if particles are outside of the camera BUT inside a light's frustrum? In theory we could do some sort of estimation per object whether its bbox is seen by all lights and the camera, but right now all particles are being loaded into memory regardless. When the rendering is performed though, only particles "seen" by the camera and/or lights will trigger drawing operations. So the loading of particles does not take frustrums into account, the lighting and rendering does.

jigu
11-03-2010, 11:15 AM
Thanks for the info.

Then I might go out of ram if I load particles outside camera too. I think I have to make selection to generate PRT volume for particular selection (by camera frustum box)

Stivow
11-04-2010, 09:50 AM
Hey there, first render of a river test rendered with krak, kinda hard to create this translucent effect of water. I also think it could be better to mix this with a meshed version of the realflow sim.

If you any advices, ideas, etc, do not hesitate :)

http://vimeo.com/16486025

Cheers

bersu
11-04-2010, 08:48 PM
i want to do an animation of a single frame which i partitioned in krakatoa ,, a camera rotating around the scene ,, i got the prt loader with the single frame ,, how do i make the animation though?? is it right to ask that here ?

Bobo
11-04-2010, 09:32 PM
i want to do an animation of a single frame which i partitioned in krakatoa ,, a camera rotating around the scene ,, i got the prt loader with the single frame ,, how do i make the animation though?? is it right to ask that here ?

This is the place :)

Can you explain what you mean with "animation of a single frame", since there are several cases that come to mind. Here are some of them:

*You have a single PRT file loaded in a PRT Loader with "Load Single Frame Only" checked. This means that the frame number won't be appended to the file name of the PRT file and the same particles will load on each frame. All you want to do is animate a camera around, looking at the same static particles over time. In this case, you just keyframe the camera or put it on a Spline Path using a Path Constraint, create at least one light or force Emission and render away.

*A variation of the above method, but much faster, is enabling the PCache for the particles. This will load the particles into memory just once on the first frame, then you can render all frames at a fraction of the time. For example, if the loading of the particles takes 5 seconds and the lighting and rendering takes 5, instead of 10 seconds per frame you will be looking at only 5. If the light source is not moving either, you can also enable the LCache option in the Main Controls rollout and this will eliminate the lighting calculations. Assuming half of the rendering time was spent lighting the particles, you could be down to 1/4 of the original rendering time.

*The above approach also works when rendering on Deadline, but there is a slightly hidden option in the Right-click menu of the large RENDER button that enables it for network rendering. This is tricky though and only recommended for advanced users (assuming you have Deadline installed, of course).

*A completely different way to animate a single PRT file would be to use a Krakatoa Channels Modifier (KCM) that moves the particles in space over time (kind of like PFlow does). There is a tutorial describing this specific case that can be found here:
http://software.primefocusworld.com/software/support/krakatoa/single_frame_constant_motion_animation.php
In this example, the particles perform a linear motion based on the one velocity vector stored in the single PRT file being loaded. If there is no Velocity in the channel, one could generate it via the KCM, too...

If this does not answer your question, please be more specific about what exactly you need help with...

oglu
11-23-2010, 07:39 PM
something new about frost..?

Bobo
11-23-2010, 09:31 PM
something new about frost..?

Frost will be a new Thinkbox Software product, so a dedicated CGTalk thread might be needed when it comes along. ;)

Its development and testing are covered by an NDA, so don't expect much information in the coming months.

Keep an eye on www.thinkboxsoftware.com for news and stay excited!

friedpixels
11-23-2010, 09:43 PM
stoked! can't wait to see what you guys have been up to!

Als
11-23-2010, 10:14 PM
Are we there yet? ;)


Als

MatthiasM
11-23-2010, 10:48 PM
a new software, sounds very awesome, can we at least know if its a tool to create visuals (for max?) or a management tool like deadline ?

Bobo
11-23-2010, 11:11 PM
a new software, sounds very awesome, can we at least know if its a tool to create visuals (for max?) or a management tool like deadline ?

You are gonna love it! Good enough? ;)

MatthiasM
11-24-2010, 11:18 AM
Good enough!

StevieMac
11-24-2010, 03:30 PM
Can anyone tell me what this means, & how to fix it? Krak 1.6.0.44376

WRN: max_pflow_particle_istream() - Could not GetParticleContainer() from the IParticleGroup for node: PFS_Dirt_Fine_Dirt->PFS_Birth_Big_Debris
WRN: max_pflow_particle_istream() - Could not GetParticleContainer() from the IParticleGroup for node: PFS_Dirt_Fine_Dirt->Stop
WRN: max_pflow_particle_istream() - Could not GetParticleContainer() from the IParticleGroup for node: PFS_Dirt_Fine_Dirt->PFS_Birth_SML_Debris

I have 2 Particle Flow systems but the ones that are in the warnings above when turned off I get no problems but I need them on. So I'm guessing the PFS kicking up a fuss is somehow linked to the other system but I don't know how to unlink it or fix the problem.

Thanks guys

dharrison
11-24-2010, 04:58 PM
Can I assume that there are particles in those events that are supposed to be renderable? Does it work fine when rendering with Default Scanline?

StevieMac
11-24-2010, 05:19 PM
No problems with just scanline.
The particles in those events arn't renderable but they do have events coming off them that do need to be renderable. I've tried turning off just those events but I still get the same list of errors.

dharrison
11-24-2010, 05:28 PM
Ok. Do you have a scene file I could use for testing? If you send it to me ( darcyharrison AT thinkboxsoftware DOT com ) I can try to debug it. Otherwise I'll just be poking around in the dark :(

The last time I saw something along these lines, the artist just rebuilt their flow with the same operators, links, etc. and it worked fine. Another thing to consider trying is to merge the PFlow stuff into a new scene and see if it works fine there.

StevieMac
11-24-2010, 06:06 PM
I tried the merge option but no luck there, so I rebuilt the flow & now it's working so thanks. =0)
If you want the file I cans till send it to you?
I think the problem arises when you make a flow then copy parts of that flow to another flow something must be staying behind.

I had this same problem the other day too & rebuilding my flow didn't work I had to put my birth to 0 to fix it but that was Krakatoa saying it was exporting the Vel, Colour, ID channels but when I tried to use those channels in another PFlow using the Updater from a PRT file the only channel I got was Colour.

Thanks for the help Darcy

Stivow
11-26-2010, 01:56 PM
Will you be needing beta testers Bobo ? :deal:

PsychoSilence
12-09-2010, 02:40 PM
Krakatoa in "Skyline" and an unreleased movie:

http://vimeo.com/17416025
http://vimeo.com/17571071

PFlow Box#3, Krakatoa KCMs, Krakatoa renderer :)

JohnnyRandom
12-09-2010, 04:35 PM
Nice shots :)

toenexx
12-17-2010, 01:40 AM
Might be a dumb question, but I am currently using FumeFX follow operator for PFlow particles, and I was wondering if adding Vorticity : float32 [3] to the particle channels would save when I did partitions. If so, is float32 [3] the correct Type and Depth?

Thanks!

Bobo
12-17-2010, 08:05 AM
Might be a dumb question, but I am currently using FumeFX follow operator for PFlow particles, and I was wondering if adding Vorticity : float32 [3] to the particle channels would save when I did partitions. If so, is float32 [3] the correct Type and Depth?

Thanks!

PFlow has no Vorticity channel. You can't save anything FumeFX-related out of a PFlow simulation, just the "usual suspects" PFlow knows about (Position, Velocity etc.)

StevieMac
12-30-2010, 12:45 PM
Hey guys Happy new year for Sat!

I've been getting a fringe on the alpha on my PFlow Debris pass (through Mesher as a selection set for Krak to use as a Matte) this is fine on my FumeFX pass so I'm pretty sure it's to do with Krakatoa & Matte Objects.
I've got Motion blur set to 5 passes & I had to put 0.1 on the Matte Objects Bias to align the white fringe to the geomatry. But the SuperSampling in the Matte Objects seemed to help the most to reduce the size of the white outline. I've attached images below.
So what am I doing wrong?
Can you control the Anti A in krak some other way?
Or is it because I'm using an EXR with vector motion blur for the Debris Pass & not getting the motion blur right on the Krak?
Or am I going about this all the wrong way what is the best way to get Krak to alpha out your Debris pass?
It all takes so long to render due to the amount of debris I really don't want to get it wrong again.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8JPHUdFuObg/TRyLxn6rp9I/AAAAAAAAAfM/M7jxni3UAFw/s1600/KrakSettings.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8JPHUdFuObg/TRyLxWsgQGI/AAAAAAAAAfE/oJWeyhRpI7w/s1600/Fringe.jpg

Thanks guys

Bobo
12-30-2010, 04:57 PM
So what am I doing wrong?
Can you control the Anti A in krak some other way?
Or is it because I'm using an EXR with vector motion blur for the Debris Pass & not getting the motion blur right on the Krak?
Or am I going about this all the wrong way what is the best way to get Krak to alpha out your Debris pass?
It all takes so long to render due to the amount of debris I really don't want to get it wrong again.

Obviously you cannot match vector motion blur with 5 passes Krakatoa motion blur. With your current settings, the geometry of the matte object is sampled once and would be interpolated linearly between the 5 passes based on its PRT animation. But a Mesher has no PRS animation, only vertices are moving on sub-frames, so the matte object is not blurred at all by Krakatoa.

You could try enabling "Sub-Sample Geometry" which will sample the Mesher used for Matte once per pass. With everything else as is, you will get 5 samples of the Matte, one for each particle pass. I am not sure the Bias will be needed at 0.1, unless you do have bias set in your non-Krakatoa pass.

Keep in mind that the motion blur of particles in Krakatoa is very similar to vector motion blur in that it uses a single velocity vector and thus produces linear segments. But it is not exactly the same.

The best but slowest way to match Krakatoa motion blur and Max motion blur is to disable the built-in MBlur options and render both the Krakatoa pass and the Max pass using MultiPass effect. But this will be very slow for both passes.

Here is the relevant page explaining among other things how the sampling of geometry is performed for matte objects:
http://software.primefocusworld.com/software/support/krakatoa/motion_blur.php

Regarding your last comment, the solution is obvious - create a simplified scene with less particles and less debris and try to figure out the correct settings and workflow before applying it to a heavy scene. A simple PFlow with a million moving particles and another one with ONE debris particle in front of that would be enough to test what works and what doesn't.

Hope this helps!

StevieMac
12-30-2010, 05:05 PM
Thanks as always Bobo so you think it's all down to the motion blur?

Bobo
12-30-2010, 05:19 PM
Thanks as always Bobo so you think it's all down to the motion blur?

I am not 100% sure actually :)
I was just explaining why a Mesher wouldn't get blurred at all unless you enable Geometry Sampling. But even if you enable it, with 5 passes you will probably get 5 obvious samples of the geometry that might still not look anything like your other pass, unless the motion is really slow.

The SuperSampling option in the MBlur settings basically produces a matte Z-depth image with 5 times your original resolution, and then uses the 5x5 pixels representing one real pixel to figure out whether a particle is behind or in front. 5 might be an overkill, but if it helps, then keep it. It will use a lot of memory, obviously...

StevieMac
12-30-2010, 05:32 PM
Ok I understand, I did try the 'enable Geometry Sampling' & got the result you described so at least I'm in the right direction thanks again mate.

Mohd0
01-01-2011, 05:54 AM
Guys what's the Deadline version that support Krakatoa v1.6?

Mohd0
01-03-2011, 02:33 AM
Never mind i got version 4.1 to work

NahuelL
01-04-2011, 07:55 PM
Hey guys!

I have a Krakatoa PRT Volume. The camera is animated and goes through it. So I thought that enabling PCache and LCache, would speed up the render times. However, after I render frame 0, the light is being recalculated in the other frames (Rendering pass 1 of 1 for light: "Spot001"). The PRT Volume is a still animation, just the camera moves through it.

Thanks
Nahuel

dharrison
01-04-2011, 08:40 PM
If you are rendering voxels the lighting is not cached like in particle mode. Also, if you are rendering in slave mode (ie. via Deadline, etc.) then the cache isn't used at all.

Does either of these apply to you?

NahuelL
01-04-2011, 08:57 PM
Ah yes, I forgot to say that I am rendering in voxel mode. So isn't there a way to cache it?

dharrison
01-04-2011, 09:21 PM
Unfortunately there is currently no way to cache the lighting information in voxel mode.

The lighting is calculated in a manner that is dependent on both the actual light, as well as the camera in voxel mode, so there isn't anything that can be cached when the camera is changing.

NahuelL
01-04-2011, 09:25 PM
Ok, I understand. Thanks for your reply!

NahuelL
01-11-2011, 04:52 PM
Hi! How can i add a radial falloff to a PRT Loader? I tried Particle Culling, but it produced a clear cut.

Thanks
Nahuel

Bobo
01-11-2011, 08:25 PM
Hi! How can i add a radial falloff to a PRT Loader? I tried Particle Culling, but it produced a clear cut.

Thanks
NahuelYou mean you want the particle COUNT to fall off radially?
You take a Volume Select, switch it to Sphere mode, Vertex selection and enable Soft Selection. This will populate the Selection channel with values between 1.0 (in the center of the gizmo) and 0.0 outside the gizmo. Since you want the opposite (0.0 in the center, 1.0 outside, just check the "Invert" option in the Volume Select.
Then you add a Krakatoa Delete modifier, switch it to use Soft Selection and ID channels to delete all particles where the selection is 1.0, less where it is less than 1.0 and none at all where it is 0.0...

If your particles don't have an ID channel, you have to provide one for that to work...

[EDIT: Changed suggestion to "Invert" in Volume Select instead of using a KCM to subtract Selection from 1.0).

NahuelL
01-11-2011, 08:52 PM
Thank you! It works great! :)

For some reason it deletes all the particles when I have "Display Velocities", "Display Normals" or "Display Tangents". It works fine with "Display as small dots" and "Display as large dots".

Bobo
01-11-2011, 09:39 PM
Thank you! It works great! :)

For some reason it deletes all the particles when I have "Display Velocities", "Display Normals" or "Display Tangents". It works fine with "Display as small dots" and "Display as large dots".

No, it does not delete them. If a particle has no velocity, normal or tangent, displaying that data shows a 0-length line, which in the case of MAX viewport drawing methods means no line at all. So the particles are there and will render, but they don't draw in the viewports unless you have non-zero vectors in the displayed channels.

NahuelL
01-11-2011, 10:22 PM
No, it does not delete them. If a particle has no velocity, normal or tangent, displaying that data shows a 0-length line, which in the case of MAX viewport drawing methods means no line at all. So the particles are there and will render, but they don't draw in the viewports unless you have non-zero vectors in the displayed channels.

Ah, I see. Thanks again!

NahuelL
01-15-2011, 07:26 PM
Hi! I have some PRT Volume clouds (voxel mode rendering). And i have a missile travelling through them, and I'd like the missile to illuminate the clouds. So I tried attaching an omni light to it, but unfortunately it isn't supported. Is there another way to do this?

Thanks
Nahuel

Bobo
01-16-2011, 01:16 AM
Hi! I have some PRT Volume clouds (voxel mode rendering). And i have a missile travelling through them, and I'd like the missile to illuminate the clouds. So I tried attaching an omni light to it, but unfortunately it isn't supported. Is there another way to do this?

Thanks
Nahuel

There are a couple of approaches to solve this:

A) You could combine multiple Spotlights to cover the full 360 degrees. 3ds Max for example uses 6 spotlights internally to calculate the shadow maps of a single Omni light. So putting together 6 spotlights with rectangular shape and 90 degrees angle could produce similar results as one Omni, but there could be artifacts. We have looked into approximating Omnis with Spotlights internally to allow Krakatoa to render them, but that would require 6 render passes for a single light and we decided to leave it to the user to build 6 spots if he wants to...

B) The alternative method is a bit more extravagant, but it might work. Basically, the Particle Saving mode of Krakatoa has an option to save the Illumination into the Emission channel of the saved particles. This means that you can pre-bake all lighting into PRT files and then render them without any lights (or with additional lights) by just loading them and enabling Use Emission. It doesn't matter whether the particles would be rendered as points or voxels, the lighting would be rendered as self-illumination, but will also contain all shadow casting etc. calculated during the baking.

Obviously method A) is simpler because it requires no extra saving pass, but will be 6 times slower with one Omni light represented as 6 spots. Method B) requires more disk space, but will render much faster because the lighting will be calculated in Particle mode and the Voxel rendering will need to do only the Emission pass without dealing with lights at all.

NahuelL
01-16-2011, 10:47 AM
B) The alternative method is a bit more extravagant, but it might work. Basically, the Particle Saving mode of Krakatoa has an option to save the Illumination into the Emission channel of the saved particles. This means that you can pre-bake all lighting into PRT files and then render them without any lights (or with additional lights) by just loading them and enabling Use Emission. It doesn't matter whether the particles would be rendered as points or voxels, the lighting would be rendered as self-illumination, but will also contain all shadow casting etc. calculated during the baking.

Method B) requires more disk space, but will render much faster because the lighting will be calculated in Particle mode and the Voxel rendering will need to do only the Emission pass without dealing with lights at all.

I prefer Method B. How can i save the Illumination into the Emission channel of the PRT Volume? Also I have a spot light (basic lighting for the clouds) Can I save that also as well as the omni? Does it make any difference if I save it in Particle or Voxel mode?

Thanks for your reply!
Nahuel

Bobo
01-16-2011, 08:32 PM
I prefer Method B. How can i save the Illumination into the Emission channel of the PRT Volume? Also I have a spot light (basic lighting for the clouds) Can I save that also as well as the omni? Does it make any difference if I save it in Particle or Voxel mode?

Thanks for your reply!
Nahuel

Yes, it will save all lights, but if you want, you can disable the one and save only the other. When you render, the other light could be calculated dynamically. It depends on your needs to tweak lighting...

Here is the relevant documentation:

http://software.primefocusworld.com/software/support/krakatoa/save_particles_rollout.php#.3ECalculate_Lighting_And_Copy_Lighting_Channel_Into_Emission_Channel_When_Saving

"
Save Lighting As Emission

Available in Krakatoa v1.5.0 and higher
>Calculate Lighting And Copy Lighting Channel Into Emission Channel When Saving




When checked, the Lighting channel will be calculated and copied to the Emission channel of the particles.

The Emission channel will be added automatically to the list of channels to save if it is not on it yet.
Krakatoa MUST be switched to Particle Rendering method since the Voxel Rendering does not allocate a Lighting channel!
When saving particles with this option turned on, the illumination will be calculated for each light using the Particle Rendering Lighting method to provide a valid Lighting channel."

Here is a tutorial related to it:

http://software.primefocusworld.com/software/support/krakatoa/lighting_channel_saving.php

NahuelL
01-16-2011, 09:45 PM
Thank you so much Bobo! It works awesome! :D

toenexx
01-19-2011, 01:18 AM
Hi there,

I am looking to make a script that opens up max, sets my partition count and partition range however, I cannot seem to find a maxscript property under krakatoa for partition range:

http://software.primefocusworld.com/software/support/krakatoa/maxscript_property_names.php

Am I blind or does partition range property for maxscript not available?

p.s. still new to scripting in max, so excuse my novice question.

Bobo
01-19-2011, 05:59 AM
Hi there,

I am looking to make a script that opens up max, sets my partition count and partition range however, I cannot seem to find a maxscript property under krakatoa for partition range:

http://software.primefocusworld.com/software/support/krakatoa/maxscript_property_names.php

Am I blind or does partition range property for maxscript not available?

p.s. still new to scripting in max, so excuse my novice question.

Don't worry, Krakatoa is a MAXScript jungle (just the GUI is 688KB of scripting glory). Thankfully, all the UI is implemented in MAXScript, so if I could do it, you can, too :)

The trick here is that the page you posted deals with the properties that "Krakatoa The Renderer" uses internally to get stuff done. But the Partitioning is not a feature of the renderer plugin, it is a purely user-interface level construct (both the local and network flavors). Thus, its source code is freely available inside the file KrakatoaGUI.ms, but these kinds of features are not really documented in the online help - we just assumed that anyone interested in them would simply open our source code and copy&paste what's needed ;)

In short, you will have to switch Krakatoa to "Save Particles To File Sequence" mode, open the Krakatoa GUI and set the spinners to the values you want. The global variable 'Krakatoa_GUI_Partition' contains the rollout you need, and you can access its controls as properties, e.g.

FranticParticles.SetProperty "Partition:Count" "20"
Krakatoa_GUI_Partition.spn_PartitionStart.value = 5
Krakatoa_GUI_Partition.spn_PartitionEnd.value = 15

Note that the first line sets the internal property "Partition:Count" which is stored inside the renderer, while the other two modify just the UI values used when partitioning. We felt that the range should not be stored when the Max file is saved and should reset itself each time you reopen the GUI. Whether it was a good design decision is open for discussion, but that's how it is.

At that point, you can simply trigger a partitioning by calling the .pressed() handler function of the button of your choice, like

Krakatoa_GUI_Partition.btn_saveCurrentPartitionLocally.pressed()


Alternatively, you can directly call the function that performs the local partitioning:

Krakatoa_GUI_Partition.savePartitionsLocally mode:#one


Once again, and this is important, the Krakatoa GUI must be open for MAXScript to actually "see" the controls and access them.

We have some plans for the future to make these operations less UI-dependent and allow much more automation of particle and partition saving, but we will see...


Here is an example of a simple script that could be run to do some basic partitioning:

renderers.current = Krakatoa() --assign Krakatoa as the renderer
FranticParticles.SetProperty "ParticleMode" "Save Particles To File Sequence" --switch to save mode
FranticParticles.SetProperty "ParticleFiles" @"c:\temp\part_test_.prt" --set output path
FranticParticles.SetProperty "Partition:Count" "20" --set total number of partitions
FranticParticleRenderMXS.OpenGUI() --open the GUI, causing a refresh of all rollouts
Krakatoa_GUI_Partition.open = true --expand the Partitioning rollout
rendTimeType = 2 --set the renderer to current segment
Krakatoa_GUI_Partition.spn_PartitionStart.value = 6 --set the range start
Krakatoa_GUI_Partition.spn_PartitionEnd.value = 7 --set the range end
Krakatoa_GUI_Partition.savePartitionsLocally mode:#one --launch local partitioning

bersu
01-21-2011, 01:47 AM
im getting results out of it which i dont like ,, in my opinion because im not doing the right combinations of lights parameteres ,, idk what should be the best output format to then edit ,, ,, png ,, exr ,, jpeg , to combine with v ray ,, also light maps , etc .. I would very much appreciate a brief explanation of which paramaters i should put to get the best quality.
also getting shadows on geometry is a thing i havent searched and light reflection on geometry too.

JonathanFreisler
01-30-2011, 10:24 AM
Pretty simple question, Bobo.
Is it possible to do any form of shading based on density? In regards to filling volumes with particles.

Bobo
01-30-2011, 05:23 PM
Pretty simple question, Bobo.
Is it possible to do any form of shading based on density? In regards to filling volumes with particles.

I am not quite sure I understand the simple question :)
What does shading have to do with filling volumes?

Here are some thoughts, let's see if they will be enough to figure out what you want...

There are two "densities" in the world of Krakatoa - per-particle Density channel value and Spatial Density as function of the distribution of particles within a given volume.

The former defines how much a single particle contributes to the volume it is "covering". For example, when rendering as point, Krakatoa calculates how much volume a single pixel is representing and when a particle is drawn into that pixel, its density channel value is used to determine the influence of that particle. When rendering as Voxels, all values written into the voxel are modulated by the Density channel value, again determining the contribution of a particle to the volume it falls into.

The latter simply depends on how many particles are found in a unit of volume. When using PRT Volume for the creation, the distribution is more or less constant - the particles are either in a regular grid, or Jittered within the level set voxel to produce a good distribution.

Obviously, controlling the per-particle density is as easy as adding a KCM to the PRT object and defining values for the Density channel. Particles with Density of 0 will completely disappear in the final rendering, but they will still need to be sorted and shaded.

Not so obviously, you could use the Selection Channel of the particles plus a Krakatoa Delete operator set to Soft-Selection + ID Channel to actually reduce the spatial density in a PRT cloud without changing the per-particle density. Here is an example:

*Create a Teapot
*Turn to PRT Volume
*Add a VertexPaint modifier to the Teapot, set to Map Channel 3
*Flood Fill with Black.
*Set the Paint Brush to White and paint on the Teapot in random areas.
*Select the PRT Volume, add a KCM and set its flow to Mapping3 -> Magnitude -> Selection.
*Add a Krakatoa Delete modifier to the PRT Volume and switch to Soft-Selection + ID Channel. Ignore the warning in the Log that says PRT Volume has no ID channel, it will use the Index.

RESULT: The particles that inherit white from the surrounding mesh will be deleted, particles within gray areas will be deleted with lower probability, particles in the black areas will stay.

You can add a Multiply operator after the Magnitude and introduce a Float factor to scale the soft-selection down and reduce the percentage of deleted particles.

Of course you can do exactly the same with a 3D procedural map like Cellular or Noise and delete particles based on their map color, but it might be easier to just set the Density channel per particle to the map value's Magnitude.

As I said in the beginning, I have no idea what you were asking about, so I don't know if this answers your question, but I hope it gives you some ideas...

JonathanFreisler
01-30-2011, 11:03 PM
Ah right, yeah I just looked at what I asked again and realized it didn't make much sense... what you said sort of helps.

I'm asking if you can colour thigns based on density. For example in fume, the colour can be controlled by a density gradient. I think this could be spatial density? But again i may not have clarified what I'm trying to ask ha ha!

Bobo
01-31-2011, 12:03 AM
Ah right, yeah I just looked at what I asked again and realized it didn't make much sense... what you said sort of helps.

I'm asking if you can colour thigns based on density. For example in fume, the colour can be controlled by a density gradient. I think this could be spatial density? But again i may not have clarified what I'm trying to ask ha ha!

Right now you cannot because it would require a method to evaluate the density around each particle. This calls for some sort of acceleration structure to quickly query densities and density gradients which is currently not part of MagmaFlow's arsenal (although its code exists already).

The DensityGradient channel is available in the PRT FumeFX object, so in a way you can do what you want, but only if you are sourcing a FumeFX simulation, not with regular PRT Volume and PRT Loader objects. See http://software.primefocusworld.com/software/support/krakatoa/fumefx_direct_rendering.php#DensityGradient_Channel_and_Normal_Channel_Generation

mclawest
01-31-2011, 12:31 PM
Hi all! So much info! I read this 5 days :)
I have a few questions..
1. I have an object which I need to fill by particles and then I need to fly inside. At this point my particles are on surface only, so when I inside I see that the object is empty :(
2. How can I get a reflections on the environment from krakatoa particles? Or the better way is to bake a particles as meshes and use them for it?
3. How to separate a particles diffuse and particle shadows into two render layers? I found that the "custom_data" by default gives a nice diffuse color, but I can't find a better solution how to get the shadows :( Also, can I set the shadows in krakatoa to be more smooth and set a shadows to be not black only?

Bobo
01-31-2011, 06:35 PM
Hi all! So much info! I read this 5 days :)
I have a few questions..
1. I have an object which I need to fill by particles and then I need to fly inside. At this point my particles are on surface only, so when I inside I see that the object is empty :(


How did you fill your object? The PFlow Position Object has an option to fill a volume, but it is VERY slow. The PRT Volume object of Krakatoa fills the volume in no time, but it does not animate by default, you would have to save a PRT file with the particle distribution and then load in PFlow for animation (if desired). There is an option to limit the particles of PRT Volume around the surface, but it is off by default. Also, you should be rendering in Voxel mode if you want a cloud-like effect - in Particle rendering mode, coming close to the particles inside the volume will make them appear as small grains of sand passing by the camera which might not be what you want...


2. How can I get a reflections on the environment from krakatoa particles? Or the better way is to bake a particles as meshes and use them for it?

Good question. One way to fake it (but quite a laborious one) would be to render 6 90 degree cameras with square aspect from the center of the mesh you want to reflect on, then apply a Reflection Map set to manual cubic reflection mapping. I have done this as a test and it works, but might require some scripting to create the cameras, render all views to sequences and assign the reflection maps to all objects... So at this point it is a hack.

Normally, we use compositing tricks. But meshing the particles might be a good idea, assuming you can get the right look..


3. How to separate a particles diffuse and particle shadows into two render layers? I found that the "custom_data" by default gives a nice diffuse color, but I can't find a better solution how to get the shadows :( Also, can I set the shadows in krakatoa to be more smooth and set a shadows to be not black only?

Due to the volumetric nature of Krakatoa, Shadows and Lights are two sides of the same process (as in nature). In other words, Shadows from a Krakatoa rendering are Lack Of Light ;) Thus, using two "SpecificLight" render elements will give you the Light / Shadow info for each light, and compositing these give you the final lighting solution. Where there is no light because of Absorption, the particles will appear darker...

As for the color of the shadow areas, you need the Absorption channel to be enabled and the Absorption values of the particles set to a non-black value. The Absorptions channel in Krakatoa is like the inverse of the Filter value in 3ds Max materials. It defines what components of the light passing through a particle to be absorbed, so setting a high Red channel value will KILL red light, leaving more green and blue over distance. As side effect, shadow areas will also turn into that remaining color. In the Global Render Values rollout, we provide two color swatches for the Absorption Override (assuming you want a single value for all particles) - the left swatch defines the absorption values, the right one shows what color you would get if white light was passing through white particles (this right value is what the Filter color in Max Standard Material represents).

Try this: Create a Teapot, convert to PRT Volume, set Color to White, add a Spot Light with white color. Enable >Use Absorptions, enable >Override Absorption and set the Absorption Override color to [128, 0, 0]. If you render with relatively low Final Pass Density, you should see the light penetrating the particle cloud and gradually absorbing the red component of the light, producing a gradient from reddish highlights to blue-cyan shadows.

Alternatively, you can enable >Use Emission and provide a little bit of self-illumination color to tint the whole particle cloud. This is quite similar to the Ambient light factor in Standard 3ds Max materials - it just provides some additional light that does not come from anywhere in particular. You might want to watch my introduction video on YouTube which shows how to use the Emission override to brighten the shadows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eudomaAnI6o

mclawest
01-31-2011, 07:37 PM
The PFlow Position Object has an option to fill a volume, but it is VERY slow.

heh! I must to say it is very-very-very sloooow!!!

Good question. One way to fake it (but quite a laborious one) would be to render 6 90 degree cameras with square aspect from the center of the mesh you want to reflect on, then apply a Reflection Map set to manual cubic reflection mapping. I have done this as a test and it works, but might require some scripting to create the cameras, render all views to sequences and assign the reflection maps to all objects... So at this point it is a hack.

sounds very scarry :) I think that i will try to play with baking..
Thanks for reply and advices!

Nickolay411
02-01-2011, 07:24 AM
Ah right, yeah I just looked at what I asked again and realized it didn't make much sense... what you said sort of helps.

I'm asking if you can colour thigns based on density. For example in fume, the colour can be controlled by a density gradient. I think this could be spatial density? But again i may not have clarified what I'm trying to ask ha ha!



IF YOU WANT TO COLOR BY DENSITY.. YOU can Use BOX 3 to read each particles surrounding density and assign a color that way. Good luck.

x89
02-02-2011, 05:11 AM
Hi i have a question

Now i'm playing with Magma Flow , Can i make something like condition to Blend colors at specific frame ? not particle age but a scene frame

thanks

Nickolay411
02-02-2011, 05:36 AM
Blend colors at specific frame ?

Bobo knows best. I'm not sure bout magma flow.

You can do this with pflow BOX 3, pretty easily.

Bobo
02-02-2011, 05:38 AM
Hi i have a question

Now i'm playing with Magma Flow , Can i make something like condition to Blend colors at specific frame ? not particle age but a scene frame

thanks

Certainly.
*Create a Script Input. Enter
currentTime.frame
in the script field. This will give you the current time (obviously).
*Create a Greater operator from the Logic group.
*Connect the Script into the first socket.
*Hold down Ctrl and hit 5 to create a Float input with value of 5.0
*Create a Switch operator from the Logic group, connect the Greater operator to its third socket.
*Now you can connect two Vector inputs to the first and second sockets

As result, the second color will be used before frame 5 (false), the first after frame 5 (true).

Alternatively, you can use the Script input to produce a gradual value between 0.0 and 1.0 and feed into a Blend op's 3rd socket to mix two colors over time. For example,

val = (currentTime.frame-25.0)/50.0
if val < 0 then 0.0 else if val > 1.0 then 1.0 else val

This will produce a gradient between 0.0 and 1.0 between frames 25 and 75...

Nickolay411
02-02-2011, 06:03 AM
thats awesome...!!! i need to use magma flow more. :P

x89
02-02-2011, 06:10 AM
Awesome Bobo i never saw the script input before your post! thank you http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon13.gif

Bobo
02-02-2011, 06:14 AM
Some more details:

*Script Inputs are evaluated just once per flow update. In other words, MagmaFlow does not have a Script op that will run once per particle (as it would be very slow with millions of particles). But for scene time, we need the value evaluated just once, so that's OK.

*currentTime is the system global variable that contains the current time in both the viewport AND the renderer! It is very important to use it instead of SliderTime which represents only the time slider but does not change at render time if you want you MagmaFlow to render correctly in Krakatoa.

*Dividing a time value by a float produces an Integer in Ticks, that's why we need the .frame property to get the frame as a floating point value before it gets divided.

x89
02-02-2011, 06:30 AM
Thank you for the details Bobo your alternative solution is exactly what i want.http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/editor/smilie.gif

mclawest
02-02-2011, 12:06 PM
If I need to combine a several scenes with prepared krakatoa tests, how can I solve it?
I mean If I have a three different kind of look particles system with some sets for lightning, density, colors etc. in krakatoa. And I think how to combine them but with their own sets for rendering?

Bobo
02-02-2011, 03:49 PM
If I need to combine a several scenes with prepared krakatoa tests, how can I solve it?
I mean If I have a three different kind of look particles system with some sets for lightning, density, colors etc. in krakatoa. And I think how to combine them but with their own sets for rendering?

There are different approaches, I guess.

One thing you could do is render each scene separately and combine the results in a compositing application like Autodesk Composite, Adobe After Effects, Eyeon Fusion, Nuke etc. This can be tricky if the particle clouds have to interact or overlap volumetrically.

Another approach would be to save the particles of each scene to a PRT sequence while baking the specific scene lighting into the Emission channel. Then load the PRT sequences into a new scene using multiple PRT Loaders and render with >Use Emission on and no lights. The final result will combine all particles into a single rendering, but there will be still no light interaction between the clouds (like shadow casting from one cloud onto another). So you could enhance this approach with additional dynamic lighting that affects all particles in the final scene.

Or you could load all particle sequences into a single scene the same way as above, but try to create a single lighting rig that produces the optimal effect for all...

I think the same approaches apply to any kind of scenes, not just Krakatoa particle rendering... But it is your setup and you should have planned this before starting to create the particles ;)

mclawest
02-02-2011, 04:05 PM
There are different approaches, I guess.
One thing you could do is render each scene separately and combine the results in a compositing application like Autodesk Composite, Adobe After Effects, Eyeon Fusion, Nuke etc. This can be tricky if the particle clouds have to interact or overlap volumetrically.

I see.. Thanks!

Bobo
02-02-2011, 05:10 PM
Awesome work by Nexus in London using FumeFX and Krakatoa in 3ds Max and Deadline for rendering, among other things:
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/news/2011/2/2/london-studio-nexus-uses-krakatoa-and-deadline-on-an-epic-ho.html

JohnnyRandom
02-02-2011, 05:24 PM
Cloudy with a Chance of Hondas

LOL :D

Great ad ;)

varfare
02-06-2011, 01:11 PM
I have a problem with Krakatoa. I've cached some particles but when I try to render out frame 48 and 49 Krakatoa fails and shows me that message:
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4346/97047740.jpg
All frames except these two are fine. Does it mean that I need to re-cache these frames? The error reffers to some kind of file which I do not own "particles_3mEXPLO_0C" but the particle files are named that in that way: particles_3mEXPLO_0001, particles_3mEXPLO_0002,... particles_3mEXPLO_0100 etc. No idea why it wants to render out some kind of 0C file.

EDIT: I've recached whole sim with the same resoult. Now it fails at frame 26.

I am using krakatoa 1.6.1.43756 via 3dsmax 2010 64bit on win7.

Bobo
02-06-2011, 06:07 PM
I have a problem with Krakatoa. I've cached some particles but when I try to render out frame 48 and 49 Krakatoa fails and shows me that message:

All frames except these two are fine. Does it mean that I need to re-cache these frames? The error reffers to some kind of file which I do not own "particles_3mEXPLO_0C" but the particle files are named that in that way: particles_3mEXPLO_0001, particles_3mEXPLO_0002,... particles_3mEXPLO_0100 etc. No idea why it wants to render out some kind of 0C file.

EDIT: I've recached whole sim with the same resoult. Now it fails at frame 26.

I am using krakatoa 1.6.1.43756 via 3dsmax 2010 64bit on win7.

That's not OC, that's 00 with a portion of it cut off ;)
The error means the ZIPLIB cannot decompress the stream, which in turn means the file is corrupted. No idea why this is happening, are you saving to a local disk or a network? Do you have enough disk space on that drive?

I have seen this happening, but very rarely and I don't know the reason. If you can describe your process and hardware a bit, there might be something that is making it happen every time. Next time this happens, don't resave the whole animation but just the frame that is bad (even if it has to preroll the other frames, it will save time and ensure what was working before will still work).

varfare
02-06-2011, 06:14 PM
My rig: core2duo e8200, asus abit p5k, 6gb ddr2 OCZ platinium xtc edition. HDD which I'm saving cache at is Seagate 250gb sata2 drive (can't remember the exact model), so I'm saving on my local hard drive which seems to be fine.

I've tried to recache the frames which are broken but it rendered out few frames and it showed me the message again so I decided to recache it again- with the same resoult. I have 7,5GB of free disk space left after it cached the whole thing.

Here's the process:
I made fumefx 2.1 sim, created particle flow with fumfx follow and birth, it works perfect. I cached particles out and loaded them via prt loader. I can see every frame in the viewport but when I'm trying to render out my sim it fails. It renders few frames and it gets stuck at some frame. Previous cache had frame 46 and 47 broken, after recache I can't render frame 26 so it's very random

UPDATE: I've resaved whole cache on another HDD and it is damaged anyway.

Bobo
02-06-2011, 08:56 PM
Try saving to BIN or CSV and see how it goes - these two formats use more disk space, but do not ZIP the content. If it has problems with saving / loading those, try downloading the latest Beta from http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krakatoa-downloads/beta-builds/Krakatoa1.6.1.43926.msi and try again.

varfare
02-07-2011, 03:55 PM
Try saving to BIN or CSV and see how it goes - these two formats use more disk space, but do not ZIP the content. If it has problems with saving / loading those, try downloading the latest Beta from http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krakatoa-downloads/beta-builds/Krakatoa1.6.1.43926.msi and try again.
Beta version+bin files work together just fine! I will try saving prt files with beta version (20gb of particle files vs 77,3gb of bin files). Thanks!

varfare
02-07-2011, 05:54 PM
Ok. Beta version fails to render from PRT files with the same error. If noone has any idea why is Krakatoa saving corrupted prt files I'll have to stick with .bin.

Bobo
02-07-2011, 06:11 PM
Ok. Beta version fails to render from PRT files with the same error. If noone has any idea why is Krakatoa saving corrupted prt files I'll have to stick with .bin.

It is not the rendering that is failing, it is the saving :)
I have not experienced this in the last couple of years, so no, I have no idea why it is corrupting your files.

Sticking to BIN is not a great idea because BINs are larger, slower to load and you cannot control the channel layout (they always have the same channels specified by NextLimit).

I would be curious to know if you could try to save the same on a different machine (if you have access to one). I would like to know if it is a machine-specific issue or a scene-specific issue.

Also, does it happen if you start a new scene and create something similar, but not exactly the same, producing a similar amount of particles?

The Krakatoa lead developer is away for a week, so even if you could provide a test case (the Max file that demonstrates the problem etc.), it will be until next week before somebody can look deeper into what is happening. Also it does not help much that the issue is random (it does not happen on a specific frame but on random ones).

I would also welcome feedback from other users - do you experience this problem and how often?

varfare
02-07-2011, 07:01 PM
Yes, it is saving problem- a little mistype :)

I'll take a look into it, I'll start with similar scene and I'll try to render it out on diffrent machine.

varfare
02-08-2011, 12:14 PM
2 things:
- I've created similar sim (ffx sim, then particle system with fumefx follow) with similar amount of particles. It failed to save it so I am unable to render it.
- I've created simple particle system with particles falling down and hitting the deflector (kind of waterfall), nothing more. Fery few particles were used, cache was saved sorrectly and I'm able to render the whole thing. I'll try to save cache of the same system but with a lot more particles used.

I'll try to install fumefx 2.0 (2.1 currently used) and check if it does matter.

Bobo
02-08-2011, 03:56 PM
2 things:
- I've created similar sim (ffx sim, then particle system with fumefx follow) with similar amount of particles. It failed to save it so I am unable to render it

This is very helpful, it is possible that there is something about that specific setup that causes problems. How many particles were you saving? I would like to test a similar setup and see if I can get bad frames. If that happens, we will be closer to solving the issue...

varfare
02-08-2011, 05:40 PM
Here, have this maxfile. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NROUK3R0 (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NROUK3R0)
PF source 1 is the system which is generating particles for fumefx to follow. PF source 2 is following fumefx sim so that I can render out Krakatoa particles. Have fun.

Another update. When I'm using low particle count with that setup it saves it correctly. When particle numbers are higher it is starting to save corrupted prt files. Tested with the setup which you can find on the maxfile provided above.

adom86
02-09-2011, 11:24 AM
Hey guys!

Is it possible to just partition one event in a pflow system?

:D

edit* apologies.. found it in FAQ :P

bkravi
03-02-2011, 06:24 PM
Hi Bobo,

Krakatoa sounds cool...

recently I am working in Realflow doing some water simulation, and i like to bring that simulation in to krakatoa so I can add a lot more particles with partitioning. but I have some problems doing that, I created 15 partitions but when i render I get the same density that I orignally had with realflow bins only, I dont know how krakatoa handles the random seeds with PRT Loader bins.

I do not find any good reference for partitioning with Realflow bins (there is a one method in documentaion which uses the rotate operator) but I dont if thats the correct way of doing it.

please guide me or tell me if there is any one of your or any tutorial that specifically tells how to do it.

I seek your expert advise.

Bobo
03-02-2011, 06:49 PM
Hi Bobo,

Krakatoa sounds cool...

recently I am working in Realflow doing some water simulation, and i like to bring that simulation in to krakatoa so I can add a lot more particles with partitioning. but I have some problems doing that, I created 15 partitions but when i render I get the same density that I orignally had with realflow bins only, I dont know how krakatoa handles the random seeds with PRT Loader bins.


Krakatoa cannot partition a BIN file directly because the BIN file is a snapshot of the particles in time. Partitioning normally works by modifying the parameters of the particle simulation, thus producing subtly different results, but since Krakatoa cannot influence RealFlow, it just saves the same data 15 times.

The workaround with the current version of Krakatoa is to either jitter the particles by adding a high-frequency Noise modifier to the PRT Loader (http://software.primefocusworld.com/software/support/krakatoa/partitioning_existing_file_sequences_and_vertices.php), or load the PRT Loader into PFlow and manipulate the particle channels there (for example by tweaking positions and speeds).

In the near future (a week or so), Thinkbox will be releasing the Frost particle mesher which could be used to generate new particles out of the existing simulation as shown in this preview:
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/home/2011/2/10/frost-heart-krakatoa.html
Note that this preview actually used a RealFlow simulation (this is a splash from the upcoming SuckerPunch movie where a car tire hits a puddle of rain water).

In theory, you could do something like this by loading the RealFlow Mesh BIN in Max and using the PRT Volume to fill the RealFlow mesh with particles, but you won't be able to get the velocities or other relevant channels on your PRT Volume particles, so motion blur would not work...

bkravi
03-06-2011, 05:35 AM
Thanks Bobo... noise modifier worked for me. I also thought about creating prt volume from the mesh bins, but that may be the long process for me because I am doing it without any mesh purely with particles.

I have also heard about Bermuda... something that Think box is working on, do you have more information about what exactly it is? the results looks great.

Stivow
03-07-2011, 09:10 AM
Hey Bobo,

I'm trying to use the built-in krakatoa DOF, let's say I have a sphere emitting particles while moving around and I want my focus point to stay on the sphere (moving back and forth from the camera). Is there a way to do that ? Or do I have to render a Z depth pass of the particles and handle the dof in comp ? Like a black to white gradient where the particles closer to the spheres would be white ?

Thanks for any tips ;)

Bobo
03-07-2011, 10:47 PM
Hey Bobo,

I'm trying to use the built-in krakatoa DOF, let's say I have a sphere emitting particles while moving around and I want my focus point to stay on the sphere (moving back and forth from the camera). Is there a way to do that ? Or do I have to render a Z depth pass of the particles and handle the dof in comp ? Like a black to white gradient where the particles closer to the spheres would be white ?

Thanks for any tips ;)

To use the factory DOF, you MUST add a Krakatoa Camera modifier to your camera.
By default, the Target Distance of the Camera is used as the Focal Depth. In other words, if you have a Target Camera, the location of the Target Object will be in focus. If you are using a Free Camera, you can set (or keyframe) the Target Distance value. The Krakatoa Camera modifier also has an Override Focal Depth option and you can keyframe it over time to shift the focus back and forth.

cg-steve
03-07-2011, 10:59 PM
Hi Bobo,

Just a question regarding partitioning Thinking Particles.
I've attached a screenshot of my TP setup - A volume based particle emission.

I want to create multiple partitions of this setup which I assume increments the seed value in the Position Born node, but unless the seed value is incremented in the Volume Pos node, the positioning of the particles of each partition will be almost identical.

Is there any way to set up Krakatoa to increment the seed value in the Volume Pos node?

Cheers

Bobo
03-08-2011, 12:37 AM
Is there any way to set up Krakatoa to increment the seed value in the Volume Pos node?

Actually, Krakatoa is trying to change that random seed, but it is exposed incorrectly to MAXScript and causes an error which is handled silently by Krakatoa.

I tried to access a Volume_Pos operator via MAXScript in the Listener and ended up getting this error
-- Runtime error: Couldn't find a previously defined paramblock in Volume_Pos

In other words, the property .RandomSeed is shown when asking for the properties, but is not accessible when you try to get or set it.


.Type : integer
.RandomSeed (Random_Seed) : integer
.MaterialID (Material_ID) : integer
.SmoothingGroup (Smoothing_Group) : integer
.Thickness (Depth) : float
.Track (Tracking) : boolean
.Use_Raster : boolean
.Raster : worldUnits
.RasterRandom (Raster_Random) : percent
.Mask : texturemap
.MaskThreshold (Mask_Threshold) : float
.MaskDeformation (Mask_Deform) : worldUnits
.Type
.Random_Seed
.Material_ID
.Smoothing_Group
.Depth
.Tracking
.Use_Raster
.Raster
.Raster_Random
.Mask_Threshold
.Mask_Deform

This is the case with a lot of operators in TP. In the case of MatterWaves, you can wire in an Integer Helper node called "RandomSeed" to the RandomSeed input and it will change it. But the Volume_Pos does not seem to have such an input, so I am afraid there is nothing I could do...

Stivow
03-08-2011, 08:51 AM
I see thank you, I knew I had to add a KK camera modifier but the target object being the focus point is cool ! I'll try this out.

Stivow
03-08-2011, 01:06 PM
Bobo, is there a way to increase the particles radius ?

Bandu
03-08-2011, 04:28 PM
Hi Bobo,

Just a question regarding partitioning Thinking Particles.
I've attached a screenshot of my TP setup - A volume based particle emission.

I want to create multiple partitions of this setup which I assume increments the seed value in the Position Born node, but unless the seed value is incremented in the Volume Pos node, the positioning of the particles of each partition will be almost identical.

Is there any way to set up Krakatoa to increment the seed value in the Volume Pos node?

Cheers

the work aroud for this would be to taking the position from volume pos and add some random values xyz to it, this random values will get different seeds from krakatoa, but you have to be careful with the particles being shifted outside your volume shape

Bobo
03-08-2011, 06:15 PM
Bobo, is there a way to increase the particles radius ?

No version of Krakatoa has ever had particle radius controls.
Using the DOF is kind of helping there since a large circle of confusion can look like a large particle.
But no, there is currently no way to change the radius (short of rendering in Voxel mode which represents the particles on a grid and makes them look larger).

cg-steve
03-09-2011, 05:33 AM
Actually, Krakatoa is trying to change that random seed, but it is exposed incorrectly to MAXScript and causes an error which is handled silently by Krakatoa.

This is the case with a lot of operators in TP. In the case of MatterWaves, you can wire in an Integer Helper node called "RandomSeed" to the RandomSeed input and it will change it. But the Volume_Pos does not seem to have such an input, so I am afraid there is nothing I could do...

Hi Bobo,

Sorry, could you clarify what do you mean by wiring an Integer Helper node called "RandomSeed"?

I've switched the particle generator to Matterwaves and in separate tests I've wired both an Integer Helper node and a Random Helper node to the RandomSeed input, but as I expected they didn't work.

A moment ago I checked the Particle Partitioning Workflow page in the Krakatoa online manual and under the TP subheading it says 'Note that MatterWaves operators have a random seed but are not exposed to MAXScript correctly and cannot be affected by Krakatoa Partitioning!'

Just wondering if I'm misunderstanding your solution or does that problem still exist?

Cheers

Bobo
03-09-2011, 07:31 PM
Hi Bobo,

Sorry, could you clarify what do you mean by wiring an Integer Helper node called "RandomSeed"?

I've switched the particle generator to Matterwaves and in separate tests I've wired both an Integer Helper node and a Random Helper node to the RandomSeed input, but as I expected they didn't work.

A moment ago I checked the Particle Partitioning Workflow page in the Krakatoa online manual and under the TP subheading it says 'Note that MatterWaves operators have a random seed but are not exposed to MAXScript correctly and cannot be affected by Krakatoa Partitioning!'

Just wondering if I'm misunderstanding your solution or does that problem still exist?

Cheers

The documentation was correct regarding MatterWaves alone not being affected - in Krakatoa v1.5.0.
For v1.6.0, Ian Farnsworth who was working at Prime Focus at the time suggested we support an Integer Helper renamed to "RandomSeed" in the Partitioning, so we could affect ANYTHING if needed. This was mentioned in the Release Notes of 1.6.0 SP1, but I missed the relevant docs page. Sorry!

http://software.primefocusworld.com/software/support/krakatoa/1.6.0_release_notes.php
Service Pack 1




(2010/09/07): The TP Partitioning code was tweaked to allow Input Helpers containing "*RandomSeed*" in the name to be incremented just like regular "RandomSeed" properties. This can be used for example to adjust the Random Seed of MatterWaves by connecting an Input Helper node to the RandomSeed property which is otherwise not exposed to MAXScript.


Here are the correct steps:

*Create a MatterWaves operator.
*Create an Integer helper.
*Rename the Integer helper to "RandomSeed" (or anything matching the pattern *randomseed*, for example "This Node Changes The RandomSeed of MatterWaves" will also work as a name:) )
*Wire the Integer into the RandomSeed input of MatterWaves.

Obviously, you can wire the Integer helper to anything that you want to change. The value in the Integer will be incremented by 1 for each partition, so if you want to modify something else, you can use it as input into any expression or any input that has to be changed per partition... What you can do with it depends on your TP knowledge and your imagination and is not directly related to Krakatoa really...

cg-steve
03-09-2011, 10:01 PM
Cheers, that make sense now. I'll give it a shot. :)

xplodeworkshop
03-13-2011, 09:11 AM
hi everyone...... actually i have this effect i really liked.. but wen i tried to make this in krakatoa.. so i couldnt make ... so can anyone tell me how can i make this effect.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LAY-_VHWoY&feature=related

Tamagoo
03-14-2011, 05:03 AM
Hei guys I had a quick question about partitioning, I use the free evaluation of krakatoa atm, as I understand I cannot partition with the free version?.

Bobo
03-14-2011, 08:09 AM
Hei guys I had a quick question about partitioning, I use the free evaluation of krakatoa atm, as I understand I cannot partition with the free version?.

That is a misunderstanding (I will see if the wording can be corrected).

" Network Rendering and Partitioning will be disabled." should be " Network Rendering and Network Partitioning will be disabled."

Partitioning on the local machine will work as usual, you cannot use Deadline or another network rendering manager to render / partition because a network license is needed.

Tamagoo
03-14-2011, 05:36 PM
I see, that makes sense. thank you.

xplodeworkshop
03-16-2011, 07:32 PM
hi guys please give me the answer
hi everyone...... actually i have this effect i really liked.. but wen i tried to make this in Krakatoa.. but i couldn't make ... so can anyone tell me how can i make this effect.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LAY...feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LAY-_VHWoY&feature=related)

JohnnyRandom
03-16-2011, 08:29 PM
hi guys please give me the answer
hi everyone...... actually i have this effect i really liked.. but wen i tried to make this in Krakatoa.. but i couldn't make ... so can anyone tell me how can i make this effect.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LAY...feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LAY-_VHWoY&feature=related)

Dude READ the manual! :) or at least take the time to look through it, if you had spent an hour or so going through it you would have seen that this EXACT effect is covered in a tutorial.

http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krak-camera-mapping-particles/

http://www.studiodaily.com/studiomonthly/tutorials/trainup/Disintegrate-Geometry-Objects-using-Frantic-Films-Krakatoa-and-Autodesk-3ds-Max_10691.html

cg-steve
03-23-2011, 01:13 AM
Hi Bobo,

Just another quick question, this time about anti-aliasing on matte objects.
I've attached a screenshot of the problem I'm encountering.

As you can see the matte object has an extremely sharp edge in both particle and voxel renders.
These renders are attempt to solve the problem, in which I've maxed out the Supersampling value and for rendering particles using the bicubic filter.

I've noticed that in particle render mode, lowering the particle density exp. helps with antialiasing on matte objects however I require the particles rendered at high density as I require a grainy look.

Any pointers on how I could address this?

Cheers

Bobo
03-23-2011, 05:42 AM
Hi Bobo,
Just another quick question, this time about anti-aliasing on matte objects.


Krakatoa allows you to render two passes - a background pass containing all particles that are occluded by the matte object, and a foreground pass containing the particles that are completely in front of the matte object. In version 1.6.x, this is done through a dedicated Render Element, in 1.5.x it was done by writing a second EXR file to the output folder of the regular rendering.

Right now, you are matting out any particles that are even partially behind the matte object which explains the stepping. But if you had a layer that contained all particles that are partially or completely behind the object and would composite the rendering of the geometry object over them, its latter's anti-aliased edges would take care of the problem. This also allows semi-transparent matte objects to be comped over background particles (if you think of it, anti-aliasing is a kind of semi-transparency). Any particles that are completely in front of the matte objects would be saved to the regular render output and should be blended over to partially or fully cover the result of the previous compositing step...

Hope this helps.

cg-steve
03-25-2011, 06:22 AM
Alright I'll see what I can do with that extra pass. ;)

Thanks again for that.

ApaczoS
03-30-2011, 02:51 PM
Hey Bobo,
Is it possible to render real flow mesh, let's say 120 frame sequence with PRT Volume on it in Krakatoa? I mean the hole sequence, because as far as I noticed, I can render just one frame, when I switch to Active time segment or Range, it render just one frame all over. When moving time slider it renders proper frame, but when I enable the hole sequence it doesn't. I have 980 frames so if I have to save each one manually...it's pain in the a.. :shrug:
Btw, you're doing great job here, keep it up! :buttrock:

Bobo
03-30-2011, 05:13 PM
Hey Bobo,
Is it possible to render real flow mesh, let's say 120 frame sequence with PRT Volume on it in Krakatoa? I

This was a bug and I believe it was fixed in the latest build (at least when using RF mesh as Matte object in Krakatoa, not sure about the PRT Volume evaluation).

Try v1.6.1.44127 and let me know if it fixes the issue.
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krakatoa-downloads/

ApaczoS
03-30-2011, 06:20 PM
Try v1.6.1.44127 and let me know if it fixes the issue.
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krakatoa-downloads/

So far I used 1.6.1.43756. This one works like a charm! It's perfect :bowdown:

larex
04-14-2011, 07:05 AM
Hi Bobo, i need also render Krakatoa ocludded layer pass but i realized that when i want to render particles with voxel rendering, this pass is rendered with particle render (is dotty) i think it is a bug. And also when i want to use this pass but with PRT fumefx the Krakatoa ocludded layer pass is black every time. Im using latest krakatoa (1.6.1.44127). Can You please tri it if i not doing something wrong.

Thank You very much

Bobo
04-15-2011, 04:26 PM
Hi Bobo, i need also render Krakatoa ocludded layer pass but i realized that when i want to render particles with voxel rendering, this pass is rendered with particle render (is dotty) i think it is a bug. And also when i want to use this pass but with PRT fumefx the Krakatoa ocludded layer pass is black every time. Im using latest krakatoa (1.6.1.44127). Can You please tri it if i not doing something wrong.

Thank You very much

I will pass it to the developer, sounds like a bug to me. I won't be able to test it until Monday when I will be back in the office. (I dont' have FumeFX at home).

larex
04-17-2011, 07:48 AM
Bobo, i realized that problem is not in fume but in rendering with voxels, if i tryed to render fume with particle renderer the occluded pass was ok, but when a changed to voxel rendering the pass was totaly black.. And I have different question, it is posible in krakatoa to have semitransparent mate objects but with gradient from black to white)? Because i tryed very simple test I did gradient on plane (in opacity), i put the plane in mate object, but when i render the gradient was not procesed and it looks that whole plane was matting the particles.
If there any solution to use soft gradients in opacity with a matte objects?

Thanks a lot!

Bobo
04-17-2011, 05:11 PM
Bobo, i realized that problem is not in fume but in rendering with voxels, if i tryed to render fume with particle renderer the occluded pass was ok, but when a changed to voxel rendering the pass was totaly black.. And I have different question, it is posible in krakatoa to have semitransparent mate objects but with gradient from black to white)? Because i tryed very simple test I did gradient on plane (in opacity), i put the plane in mate object, but when i render the gradient was not procesed and it looks that whole plane was matting the particles.
If there any solution to use soft gradients in opacity with a matte objects?

Thanks a lot!

First of all, the bug is that you are even getting anything in the Render Element in Voxel Mode - you are not supposed to. Render Elements are currently only supported in Particle Mode. We hope to fix this for the next release.

If you ARE rendering in Particle mode, then the Opacity of the plane makes no difference - if it is not 100% transparent, all particles MUST go to the back plane (the Occluded Particles Render Element). This is because you want to "sandwich" the geometry rendering of the plane between the foreground image which has all unoccluded particles and the background plane which has all partially or fully occluded particles. Since the geometry rendering has an Alpha channel, the transparency will be used in the comp to partially occlude the background layer and everything will look as needed.

larex
04-17-2011, 06:18 PM
I wanted try to use krakatoa to some dissipation effect when the character gradiently dissapier inside the smoke, now i think it is inpossible in krakatoa, am I right?

Todilo
04-24-2011, 09:05 PM
Wow a long thread, might have been discussed before but here it goes. What is the correct approach if I want to just user the rendering together with a big scene? I do have a nice terrain and a fumefx fire going but I also want the krakatoa particle effect. Is it best to render the krakatoa particle effect speratly, with like an magenta-background. Then remove the particles fromt he scene and render with the default scanline(or mr) and then in like after-effect put the krakatoa render on top?

Or is there a built-in approach for this?

Bobo
04-25-2011, 12:39 AM
Wow a long thread, might have been discussed before but here it goes. What is the correct approach if I want to just user the rendering together with a big scene? I do have a nice terrain and a fumefx fire going but I also want the krakatoa particle effect. Is it best to render the krakatoa particle effect speratly, with like an magenta-background. Then remove the particles fromt he scene and render with the default scanline(or mr) and then in like after-effect put the krakatoa render on top?

Or is there a built-in approach for this?

Since Krakatoa is a separate renderer, it was meant to be used that way and combine the particle rendering with the other passes in post. Not sure about the "magenta background" part, the particles produce a valid alpha channel (when not rendered additively, of course) and you should be able to composite them any way you want.

Todilo
04-25-2011, 07:08 AM
Since Krakatoa is a separate renderer, it was meant to be used that way and combine the particle rendering with the other passes in post. Not sure about the "magenta background" part, the particles produce a valid alpha channel (when not rendered additively, of course) and you should be able to composite them any way you want.

Hi, do you have any example of this? Ive tried just rendering a frame, to PNG just to be sure but only get an image with a black background and the particles.

Edit:Perhaps it is good to include the alpha channel :D. Now at least I can get a lot of PNGs to import to after effects and adobe premiere, and I guess just lay them on top of my scene and it works.

ruchitinfushion
04-29-2011, 04:45 AM
Hello friends,I am using custom plug-in to export Maya particles into *.PRT format to render in krakatoa.I am exporting Position,Velocity,rgbPP data from Maya to *.PRT file and using PRT Loader i am able to load *.PRT file but problem is that i am not able to increase particle count with randomness using krakatoa partition option.So,plz tell me how to use this to render millions of particles.Thank you

friedpixels
04-29-2011, 04:53 AM
its always best to get as much particles out as you can from the original source. multiplying particles with partition will only go so far.

Bobo
04-29-2011, 06:42 AM
Hello friends,I am using custom plug-in to export Maya particles into *.PRT format to render in krakatoa.I am exporting Position,Velocity,rgbPP data from Maya to *.PRT file and using PRT Loader i am able to load *.PRT file but problem is that i am not able to increase particle count with randomness using krakatoa partition option.So,plz tell me how to use this to render millions of particles.Thank you

What workflow are you using to increase the count? The only way using the PRT Loader and Partitioning would be to apply high-frequency Noise to jitter the particles around, but this produces a slightly fuzzy look which might not be desirable.

With the arrival of Frost, Krakatoa's little brother, it is now possible to apply a different workflow - create a metaballs surface around the original particles and fill the resulting mesh with a PRT Volume while preserving the velocities as shown in the examples here (http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/home/2011/2/10/frost-heart-krakatoa.html) and the tutorial here (http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/frost-combining-frost-and-krak/). Granted, this works best with liquid-like SPH particles (e.g. RealFlow), but it is an alternative.

As mentioned already, it would be best if you could produce multiple PRT sequences with various random seeds out of Maya...

ruchitinfushion
04-30-2011, 03:46 PM
@Bobo
Thanx for advice.And i tried to follow tutorial link but don't know wht's wrong i did in MagmaFlow Editor.
http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/ruchitinfushion/Node.png?t=1304178206
Please chck attachments for scene file.And tell me wht's wrong i did.Reply ASAP.Thank you

JohnnyRandom
04-30-2011, 04:28 PM
Because Color is a vector and SignedDistance is a float? You have only a float running through your flow, how does it become a vector?

Bobo
04-30-2011, 07:24 PM
@Bobo
Thanx for advice.And i tried to follow tutorial link but don't know wht's wrong i did in MagmaFlow Editor.

Please chck attachments for scene file.And tell me wht's wrong i did.Reply ASAP.Thank you

What Johnny said.
*Select the Power operator.
*Press C then V (Convert, to Vector) to insert a conversion operator.
*Hold down Ctrl and click the Power operator to add it to the selection so both are selected.
*Press SPACE two times to connect the output of the Power operator to the second and third inputs of the ToVector operator.

This should fix the problem.

ruchitinfushion
05-01-2011, 12:04 PM
@ JohnnyRandom & Bobo
Thanx very much.for reply now it's working.And yeah can i get little bit more help plz?
I have *.prt sequence exported from maya & using PRT Loader i can load in max but how can i integrate with Frost??for me it's little bit confusing because i am maya user.
I did PRT Loader >> Frost(PRT Loader 01) >> PRT Volume (Source = Frost01) but it's not working.

x89
05-01-2011, 04:34 PM
Hi Bobo is there a trial or any version for 3ds max 2012 ?

Bobo
05-01-2011, 06:09 PM
@ JohnnyRandom & Bobo
Thanx very much.for reply now it's working.And yeah can i get little bit more help plz?
I have *.prt sequence exported from maya & using PRT Loader i can load in max but how can i integrate with Frost??for me it's little bit confusing because i am maya user.
I did PRT Loader >> Frost(PRT Loader 01) >> PRT Volume (Source = Frost01) but it's not working.

What exactly is not working?
If you have a PRT Loader as the source in Frost and you created a PRT Volume out of the Frost, you should get a new set of particles inside the Frost mesh's volume.
If your particles have a channel called "Velocity", you can enable the Velocity to Map Channel option in Frost and copy the data into the mesh. Then in the PRT Volume, you can create a KCM that copies that map channel into the Velocity channel of the PRT Volume to get correct motion blur.

Please post exact steps of what you did and explain what happened and what did not work.

Bobo
05-01-2011, 06:11 PM
Hi Bobo is there a trial or any version for 3ds max 2012 ?

We were waiting for Kees/Lumonix to recompile the Helium control for Max 2012. Without it, we cannot release a Max 2012 build of Krakatoa (which we have already prepared otherwise). I got a word from Kees this morning that things are moving ahead. We will post it when we have it.

x89
05-01-2011, 08:40 PM
Cool! Thank you.

PsychoSilence
05-05-2011, 04:41 PM
quick question, haven't done Krakatoa camera projection in a long time...
The scene for the tutorial below does not give the same results anymore with the recent Krakatoa. The particles are way darker spotty then in in the final of the tutorial using the exact same scene.

http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krak-camera-mapping-particles/

I would need to do projection on moving objects that change shading so a little something like that i did years ago (yet the object is static here and not moving):
http://vimeo.com/7953841

Is that better done with KCMs? I have seen a tutorial on that in the practical examples of KCMs but "oldschool" would work for me (as in Box#3 or mappingObject operator). The Black Eyed Peas approach would only work in limited ways...

thanks in advance,
Anselm

EDIT: Never mind, found it :) modifed the BEP approach...

ruchitinfushion
05-07-2011, 03:26 PM
Ok now frost is working,just tell me how to give sharp stretched look.Right now it's blobby .
http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/ruchitinfushion/Frost.png?t=1304781675
And sorry for late reply.Thank you

Bobo
05-09-2011, 10:45 PM
Ok now frost is working,just tell me how to give sharp stretched look.Right now it's blobby .

How many particles do you have?
There is a limit of how far you can get with that approach.
In the RealFlow example (the first Frost teaser), we turned 100K particles into millions, but if we would have tried to start with just 1K or 10K, it would have been a problem because, other than on CSI:Miami, you cannot extract sharp detail from no data. ;)

If the distance between your source particles is, say, 1 unit, then using a Frost with a Radius of about 0.5 will produce small blobs around the particles and with Zhu/Bridson and some higher Blending, you might get good results. But if the distance between the particles is very large (say, 10 units), you are forced to increase the radius too much and you will end up with a big formless blob.

In other words, the Frost+Krakatoa method works well when the source system is already pretty detailed and all you want is to fill the small gaps between the particles with even more particles (which is what Partitioning does when there is a Random seed to change). You cannot expect to produce mullions of particles out of a few source particles AND have good detail...

Can you post an image of the original particles before the Frosting?

ruchitinfushion
05-10-2011, 02:29 AM
In scene Particle Count = 364575,i am trying to make dust trail coming out from surface of jet plane.See below for snap.
http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp186/ruchitinfushion/PartCount.png?t=1304994346

Bobo
05-10-2011, 07:33 AM
In scene Particle Count = 364575,i am trying to make dust trail coming out from surface of jet plane.See below for snap.


From the previous image, I would have never guessed the shape.
The count sounds high enough. Not sure the Frost approach is suitable for dust though, I would use it mostly for fluids. You could try loading the base particles into PFlow and spawning more particles out of them instead. The best solution of course is to emit particles out of Particle Flow and use something like FumeFX (or even simple turbulent Wind forces) to swirl them. We had to do this in G.I.Joe for the Nanomites destruction of the Nightraven jet and we used Particle Flow (plus PFlow Tools Box #3) and Krakatoa for the effect.
I am not sure why you have to use Maya particles for this as it is obviously a PITA to manage and multiply.

JohnnyRandom
05-10-2011, 03:38 PM
Holy cow, an interesting approach for a dust trail, good thinking outside the box but not at all a practical approach.

I would do... what Bobo said :)

...other than on CSI:Miami, you cannot extract sharp detail from no data.;)

That gave me a good morning laugh, I wanna know where CSI:(name location) buys their software, How do you sub interpret a pixel ten billion times to extrapolate a reflection of a license plate of a car parked around the corner? I may so go far as to say that some people actually believe that is possible! Makes for good FX though :)

PsychoSilence
05-10-2011, 03:45 PM
couldn't help it:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_0X1ggm5ZqsA/SufKnFsM8SI/AAAAAAAACPI/3RlLletycrU/csizoom.jpg

back to topic :D

JohnnyRandom
05-10-2011, 04:42 PM
HAHA, exactly! Crime solved :D

skunk184
05-12-2011, 10:54 AM
Hey guys,

Trying to use the render element Kraka Custom Data with magma but the alpha doesn't match the original render. It looks like the render elements are not taking into account the density exponent value, cause if i set that to 0 the passes match. If anyone can give me a hint or a magma workaround to compensate the density exponent value it would be very welcome.

thanks,

Craig.

tool2heal
05-12-2011, 11:33 PM
My renders have suddenly started coming out without any alpha. I'm baffled at the cause.

I have use emission, and override emission on, As it's rendering everything looks fine, but no alpha. When I open the sequence inside after effects, or even Photoshop, Nothing, just black.
It gives me the three options when I import, Straight, pre multiplied, or ignore. with the first two all I get is black, with the last i get my render, but for obvious reasons that's useless (can't composite) This happens with any file format.

I was still testing while writing this post, It seems to only be the last couple of scenes I have been working on, All of which I'm assuming are using the same krakatoa preset. So, did I accidently hit some button that made it not render alpha's?

Max 2011 x64
windows 7 ultimate x64
krakatoa 1.6.1.43756

Here I even uploaded the scene with the alpha issues, I'm assuming I just hit some damn button somewhere along the line and it's an easy fix.
max 2010 & 2011 scene files
http://www.mediafire.com/?00dydmddjvnovfu


And now I came across another problem. The renders I open in after effects are noticably darker then what I see in the render window. :/
I have never had these problems before, the first problem with the alpha's is only for that scene.
But this renders showing up darker in after effects? weird.
here's a screen you might be able to tell.
It's not like I'm new to krakatoa, I have certainly done stuff before without problems.


http://img245.imagevenue.com/loc426/th_242611631_testscreen_122_426lo.jpg (http://img245.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=242611631_testscreen_122_426lo.jpg)

EDIT: the scene in the screenshot is not the same one I'm having alpha issues with.
But every scene I'm rendering in krakatoa is showing up darker in after effects.
http://img245.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=242611631_testscreen_122_426lo.jpg
(http://img245.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=242611631_testscreen_122_426lo.jpg)

oatz
05-13-2011, 12:07 AM
My renders have suddenly started coming out without any alpha. I'm baffled at the cause.

I have use emission, and override emission on, As it's rendering everything looks fine, but no alpha. When I open the sequence inside after effects, or even Photoshop, Nothing, just black.
It gives me the three options when I import, Straight, pre multiplied, or ignore. with the first two all I get is black, with the last i get my render, but for obvious reasons that's useless (can't composite) This happens with any file format.

I was still testing while writing this post, It seems to only be the last couple of scenes I have been working on, All of which I'm assuming are using the same krakatoa preset. So, did I accidently hit some button that made it not render alpha's?

Max 2011 x64
windows 7 ultimate x64
krakatoa 1.6.1.43756

Here I even uploaded the scene with the alpha issues, I'm assuming I just hit some damn button somewhere along the line and it's an easy fix.
max 2010 & 2011 scene files
http://www.mediafire.com/?00dydmddjvnovfu


And now I came across another problem. The renders I open in after effects are noticably darker then what I see in the render window. :/
I have never had these problems before, the first problem with the alpha's is only for that scene.
But this renders showing up darker in after effects? weird.
here's a screen you might be able to tell.
It's not like I'm new to krakatoa, I have certainly done stuff before without problems.


http://img245.imagevenue.com/loc426/th_242611631_testscreen_122_426lo.jpg (http://img245.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=242611631_testscreen_122_426lo.jpg)

EDIT: the scene in the screenshot is not the same one I'm having alpha issues with.
But every scene I'm rendering in krakatoa is showing up darker in after effects.
http://img245.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=242611631_testscreen_122_426lo.jpg
(http://img245.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=242611631_testscreen_122_426lo.jpg)
What file type are you saving as?

tool2heal
05-13-2011, 12:22 AM
It doesn't matter, I tried with .exr, .png, and targa, same result. I can even save a single image from the render window and same result.

ApaczoS
05-13-2011, 12:39 AM
You need to play with Final Pass Density and Density Exponent. These parameters are strictly for alpha visibility. Here's a render with FPD: 0,05 and DE -2. Glow and BG on post. Check it out:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3568/5714749954_05fb5d121d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5714749954/)
plasmaball (00000) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5714749954/)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2617/5714189573_6da6d6d29f.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5714189573/)
1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5714189573/)

Bobo
05-13-2011, 12:56 AM
My renders have suddenly started coming out without any alpha. I'm baffled at the cause.
I have use emission, and override emission on,


It is possible that you have produced Additive render without knowing it.
The theory is this: If you are rendering with a Color (which is the Scatter factor in the volumetric shading equation), and the Absorption is not enabled or non-black, you will get Volumetric shading.
But if your Color is black, Absorption is black and the Emission is enabled and set to a Color, you will get fully additive rendering and NO ALPHA (Additive rendering cannot produce alpha, because it does not blend with other passes, it ADDS). You can see this illustrated here:
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krak-mixing-additive-and-volum/


And now I came across another problem. The renders I open in after effects are noticably darker then what I see in the render window. :/

Krakatoa does not apply any Gamma corrections to the output image. It writes full float data to the output, so if you are using something like OpenEXR, you can do your color correction in post. But the latest builds of 3ds Max ship with Gamma enabled, and it affects both the viewports and the Rendered Frame Window (aka VFB), so you would THINK the result is brighter than it really is. In that case, AfterEffects' display would be right and Max would be skewed. Turn off Gamma and you should be ok.

tool2heal
05-13-2011, 02:15 AM
You need to play with Final Pass Density and Density Exponent. These parameters are strictly for alpha visibility. Here's a render with FPD: 0,05 and DE -2. Glow and BG on post. Check it out:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3568/5714749954_05fb5d121d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5714749954/)
plasmaball (00000) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5714749954/)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2617/5714189573_6da6d6d29f.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5714189573/)
1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5714189573/)


Well I'm rendering without override color on, I'm just using the per event particle display colors to color the render, The scene I uploaded has both systems turned on, but I'm actually rendering the outer circle, and the inner circle in seperate passes, cause there's also the bolts I have yet to add.

Did you turn override color on or did you add the green in post?
The render looks much grainier then my render.

@bobo, So are you saying that If i use emission that I HAVE to have either override color turned to on or I have to have a KCM? And even if i was rendering additive, wouldnt I still see something if i loaded the single frame into photoshop and tossed a background behind it?


Heres screens of the render straight from the VFB, and a screen of my krakatoa settings.
I have no KCM or PRT's in the scene, this color is from the emission and/or the particle diplay color. This is the first time I have used emission, I always thought that I could have my particles be one color and my emission be another and be able to see two colors in the render, but it seems emission always overrides any other color you have set?

And I checked, gamma/LUT correction is turned off :/


http://img190.imagevenue.com/loc249/th_525285083_Rendersettings_122_249lo.jpg (http://img190.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=525285083_Rendersettings_122_249lo.jpg) http://img285.imagevenue.com/loc509/th_525285117_VFBrender_122_509lo.jpg (http://img285.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=525285117_VFBrender_122_509lo.jpg)

ApaczoS
05-13-2011, 03:14 AM
Did you turn override color on or did you add the green in post?
I added green in post. Override color was off.
The render looks much grainier then my render.
For me there is no grain :) , there is a small amount of particles and it's look like it has grain. I just opened your scene and hit render on 5th or 6th frame. Then I checked alpha in frame window(there was no alpha), and then I set those two values, changed Draw Point Filter to Bicubic. Gamma turned off. I think you can also decrease Emission Strength and increase Emission strength Exponent to something similar to density exponent.

tool2heal
05-13-2011, 03:31 AM
Hmmm, so you were able to get an alpha by changing those two values?
It seems that I had emission turned up higher then the particle density, which forced
additive rendering?

See, If I would of turned my density down that low, nothing would of showed up in the render.
So you brought the render into post and basically colored the alpha?
What did it look like before post? was it just a black image with an alpha.

I never even touch the draw point filters.

EDIT: so I opened the scene and changed those two density values, and didn't touch the draw point filter (still bilinear) and now I'm getting an alpha.

So can someone explain to me why actually this was happening?
is it what bobo said? it was additive rendering?
my emission was to high?

Side note: the whole after effects dark renders seemed to magically fix itself..

Thanks guys for the help, now maybe I can figure out how to get the bolt parts looking good, they are tough. lol

well anyway, here's the couple of test's I did before I finally figured out how to get the look I have now.

http://vimeo.com/23669669

Bobo
05-13-2011, 06:12 AM
So can someone explain to me why actually this was happening?
is it what bobo said? it was additive rendering?
my emission was to high?


It was a bit more complicated than that. (I could not access your scene because I was at work behind firewall = no downloading from file sharing sites). So I was speculating.

In Krakatoa 1.6.1, you have a separate multiplier for the Emission Strength. In earlier versions of Krakatoa, the Emission was multiplied by the same Density value as the Scatter (Color) and Absorption (if enabled). But when we started rendering FumeFX Fire as Self-Illuminated particles, it became difficult to control the intensity of the fire separately from the Density of the volumetric smoke. So we added the separate set of controls. With your settings, your volumetric density was so low that the particles could not produce any visible Alpha, while the Emission was higher and was producing visible color but no alpha (Additive Rendering is purely Emissive, no Scatter, no Absorption). So in a way you DID get Additive rendering, but not by setting the Color to black, but by multiplying it by a nearly zero Density. Same effect, but different controls.

tool2heal
05-13-2011, 06:23 AM
Thanks for the clarification Bobo.

Sorry about the file sharing site, If I had work maybe I could afford some webspace, haha.
Oh well. I will be sure to make sure my settings produce an alpha next time, and if they don't the densities will be the first thing I check.

I was just confused cause I never encountered the problem before, but I also never really got emission to work well before about a week ago, because I always had it turned up to high.

Thanks guys.

tool2heal
05-14-2011, 06:46 AM
Ok well, this is getting discouraging. I'm still having issues with what is getting saved out.
the saved render is darker then what is seen inside the VFB and imagine this, what is even seen in the ram player after I load up the renders..

here is the image that was saved out to the folder during rendering, straight from krakatoa, I turned off emission just for this example. all i did was open the file in photoshop and put a black layer under it.


http://img202.imagevenue.com/loc219/th_535486952_tentacles0005_122_219lo.jpg (http://img202.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=535486952_tentacles0005_122_219lo.jpg)

This is the same image loaded from the folder into the ram player and saved straight from the ram player. It gets saved without an alpha :(
Realize that this is the same exact image you see above (top: saved automatically during render, bottom: top image loaded into ram player, where it looks like it's supposed to, and saved out)


http://img156.imagevenue.com/loc422/th_355081181_ramplayer0005_122_422lo.jpg (http://img156.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=355081181_ramplayer0005_122_422lo.jpg)

as you can see, a major difference between what krakatoa is saving out, and what 3ds max actually see's and saves from the ram player and VFB.

Gamma/LUT are turned off. the top image comes into photoshop with a transparent bakground, the bottom image, comes in with a black background (no alpha)

What is happening here? I have never had this issue before, ever, and I have been using krakatoa since first release.
http://img208.imagevenue.com/loc337/th_354484876_tentacles_saved0005_123_337lo.png (http://img208.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=354484876_tentacles_saved0005_123_337lo.png)

Bobo
05-14-2011, 07:13 AM
Ok well, this is getting discouraging.
http://img208.imagevenue.com/loc337/th_354484876_tentacles_saved0005_123_337lo.png (http://img208.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=354484876_tentacles_saved0005_123_337lo.png)

Never seen anything like this, but I must admit I haven't used Photoshop in production for over 5 years, just Fusion and lately Nuke. So I am not sure what Photoshop is doing to the image. Saving from RAM Player makes little sense. I know you mentioned in another post you have tried all file formats, is this still the case?

Have you tried other image processing programs to exclude Photoshop from the equation? Like PaintDotNet or GIMP or something. I generally suspect Adobe first unless proven innocent. ;) Do you have any color profiles enabled in Photoshop?

If you load the image from disk into 3ds Max using Rendering > View Image File, does it show up correctly?

I don't think Krakatoa is doing anything wrong, but there is something happening in the transfer of your data between the applications that changes it.

tool2heal
05-14-2011, 07:37 AM
well I'm using photoshop just to check the rendered file, not for any production purpose, it appears the same way inside of after effects. the top image is whats getting saved out upon render. the bottom image is what im seeing inside the max VFB and ram player. So what im saying is the only way as of now for me to get a correct render (what i see in the vfb) is to save the rendered file, (for a second time) with ram player.

Which gives me an image with no alpha. as for file formats. these were .png. the same image when rendered as an .exr doesn't even come out with color its basically a really dark alpha.

EDIT: I just re-rendered and opened the .png up in gimp. same result.
opening rendering/view image file, gives me the correct image. :/

this is driving me nuts, I view the file in max, i see it correctly, anywhere else.. it comes out screwed.

Ok, image resaved from the rendering/viewimage window comes out with a transparent background, loaded into gimp. same dark result.
So this has to be an alpha issue? let me just render as a .jpg. brb

Yep, it's an alpha issue again ARGGGG.
Any format that saves an alpha, comes out dark.

Compare, the rendered images, in this order. a black background was added to the .png and .exr.

order. PNG,EXR,JPEG

http://img279.imagevenue.com/loc1/th_359679277_tentacles2_png_122_1lo.jpg (http://img279.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=359679277_tentacles2_png_122_1lo.jpg) http://img217.imagevenue.com/loc787/th_359679920_tentacles2_exr0005_122_787lo.jpg (http://img217.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=359679920_tentacles2_exr0005_122_787lo.jpg) http://img198.imagevenue.com/loc423/th_359680535_tentacles2_jpg_122_423lo.jpg (http://img198.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=359680535_tentacles2_jpg_122_423lo.jpg)
All rendered to folder, then opened in photoshop (doesn't matter what I open them in) and saved as jpegs. The jpeg is the only render that looks correct, and I can't use jpegs for obvious reasons, lol.

ApaczoS
05-14-2011, 01:26 PM
Strange....but you can quickly fix this in AE. Load your darker sequence with alpha channel and add exposure(effects>color correction>exposure) on that layer and set gamma correction to 2,2. Or, in max set your gamma like in the screen below just for this purpose. To be honest I have no idea why is this happening, you should get the same image when gamma is off , and you are saving straight from render window.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3188/5718282991_b64ae7575c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5718282991/)
gamma (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5718282991/) by apaczos2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/apaczos/), on Flickr

tool2heal
05-14-2011, 06:43 PM
Yea, that didn't work. when either setting the gamma correction inside max, or adding it in post with AE the image doesn't come out anything like what's seen inside the max vfb or ram player, or view image window.

This is all related to some alpha issue, cause any file type without an alpha comes out fine.
And even if that would have worked, what am I supposed to do about the fact that my .exr is coming out with basically no color?

Here's the scene file.
http://www.mediafire.com/?on9oa0fjh5haddg

JohnnyRandom
05-14-2011, 10:12 PM
This has nothing to do with Max or Krakatoa. This is totally related to how adobe handles (or doesn't handle) floating point.

There is a pretty in-depth tut on how to set up a solid 32-bit workflow in AE, if I come across it I will post it.

What you basically do is undo all the silly stuff that AE does by default. Turn off Linear light interpretation, set the comp as 32-bit, assign a color profile, ect.

ApaczoS
05-14-2011, 10:51 PM
This has nothing to do with Max or Krakatoa.
I can't agree with that:) It's all about Krakatoa.

tool2heal I set those values in the previous posts just for example, doesn't mean they are good in every scene like that...because they're not. It's all about Final Pass density and it's exponent, especially exponent and especially when it's time to save the frame. When it's set to -4 for example, you will see in render window everything but when you save that frame you will see absolutely nothing:) When you set those value to -3 you will see more after save, to -2 more, and so on. Here is you scene with a little bit of tweak:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=1PE6QE5U

tool2heal
05-14-2011, 10:57 PM
@johnny

then how does that explain that if i load it and save it in ram player then open it in photoshop/ae it looks fine?
Or the fact that when I open the saved render in gimp I have the same 'dark' result?

it's all the same file, the only difference is that the re-saved renders dont have an alpha channel.

saved from save file dialog in render settings = dark. (alpha)
saved from save file button on VFB = dark. (alpha)
same 'dark' image reopened through the ram player, and re-saved = correct. (no alpha)
saved .jpg from any way, save file dialog, vfb, ram player = correct (no alpha)

I did a quick test scene teapot and plane, one spotlight, default scanline.
All images saved out were exactly what i saw in the vfb, except the .exr, which came out at least twice as bright. finalrender, same result.

tested 3 different scenes with at least 10 different density/emission/no emission settings in krakatoa, all the same result, any image that contains an alpha comes out noticably darker then one without.

@Apac

So what ur telling me is that, unless my exponent is set to 0 what I see in the vfb is never going to resemble the actual final saved image?
Because I made another scene really simple box emitting particles . 500,000 of them.
I left krakatoa at default settings. density set to one of the presets, final pass 1, exponent -1.
And I got the same results, a darker saved image then what was displayed in the vfb.
from what your saying, I can never rely on what I see in the vfb because its never going to actually show the final result?

ApaczoS
05-14-2011, 11:40 PM
from what your saying, I can never rely on what I see in the vfb because its never going to actually show the final result?

Display Alpha Channel button in render window is your output preview in Krakatoa. Can you show me screen from render window and from a saved file with alpha? Did you check this scene from the link? And relax, we are trying to help.

tool2heal
05-14-2011, 11:57 PM
I checked the scene from the link yes, and the render window and saved file look the same,
but obviously that's not what i want as my final result.

I love the help, don't get me wrong, lol. I'm just really frustrated with this since I have used krakatoa many times and never had this happen before. I would assume that I would have run into it the very first time I ever used krakatoa.

The only thing I can think of is that this is basically my first time using emission.

screenshot of the vfb after rendering frame 5.

http://img208.imagevenue.com/loc393/th_417018217_screenshot_renderwindow_122_393lo.jpg (http://img208.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=417018217_screenshot_renderwindow_122_393lo.jpg)

I then clicked save, saved as .png, opened the file in photoshop.
created a new layer, and colored it black and put that layer behind my render.
I then saved as a jpg in order to upload to the image service.

The resulting image.

http://img141.imagevenue.com/loc530/th_417229121_savedimage_png_122_530lo.jpg (http://img141.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=417229121_savedimage_png_122_530lo.jpg)

I then did the same thing using the file you gave me.

vfb screen

http://img295.imagevenue.com/loc70/th_417689798_savedframewindow_122_70lo.jpg (http://img295.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=417689798_savedframewindow_122_70lo.jpg)

saved png

http://img227.imagevenue.com/loc185/th_417728727_savedimage_png_apac_122_185lo.jpg (http://img227.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=417728727_savedimage_png_apac_122_185lo.jpg)

it's still darker, but it's not as noticable because it's so much brighter to start with.

ApaczoS
05-15-2011, 12:55 AM
Ok, what you're trying to archive is not possible in Krakatoa...hehe, just kidding:)
But...what you want is to thin, I mean there is not enough data to save that result with an alpha channel. I'm telling you man, it's density :D For sure:)
This is my result and settings:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2019/5720082411_9997c5f400_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5720082411/)
screen1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/apaczos/5720082411/)
You can always change colors in post and my second thought is that emission has nothing to do with this, it's density:)

Flickr has changed the image size, here's a bigger screen:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=W53CMXMW

tool2heal
05-15-2011, 01:36 AM
damn :(

I never would think that I could have the density be to low for it to save a rendered image correctly.
I guess I'm going to have to render it brighter and dim it down in post, or just go about making close enough to what i want it to look like and just rendering it all out in one pass. :/

I just don't understand how this could continually happen with multiple scenes. how could rendering out a completely different scene with a 'normal' 'preset' density 1.0,-1.0 still produce a dark image? it seems at this point I can't render out an image with an alpha channel that looks like it does in the vfb. even the scene you gave me looks darker.

Oh well, I give up, I'm gonna render it all in one pass and it's not gonna look how I want it to, but I'm bored with this scene now, It should of been done already. It boggles me, what I see in the vfb, is what I should get in the final render. it's always been that way. Until this scene.

the point is, I should be able to get the scene to look how I want it to look inside of max,
render it out in layers, and comp it inside of AE, without having to worry about changing gamma settings, adjusting colors, exposure... blah blah. even if I render it all in one pass, I'm going to have to render it without an alpha, meaning I'm going to have to resort to using a crap file type.

Thanks for the help guys,
If anyone else has any ideas or figures it out, please let me know.

JohnnyRandom
05-15-2011, 01:47 AM
If you see it in the frame buffer you can duplicate that look in AE or any other comp. The data is there, period.

Photoshop display in whatever color profile it is set to in the Edit menu->Color Settings... So you may not see what you expect to see. It is much like AE. You need to strip all color profile settings. Render out of max with NO Gamma or LUT. So everything is in its "rawest" form.

EDIT: Example of everything with color adjustments removed, clockwise from left - AE/Fusion/VFB

http://4rand.com/TEST/Krakatoa/misc/Raw.png

Just for giggles open this link in a browser and save a copy and open in photoshop, side-by-side they should look different.

Bobo
05-15-2011, 01:48 AM
I can't agree with that:) It's all about Krakatoa.


Listen to Johnny, he has a point.
OpenEXR and TGA save the Alpha as PRE-MULTIPLIED out of Max, which means that the RGB is already multiplied by the Alpha and is THUS DARKER!

I would suggest trying to save to OpenEXR but with PRE-MULTIPLIED ALPHA TURNED OFF and seeing if Photoshop will load the file correctly (I suspect it will) :)

http://www.scriptspot.com/bobo/stuff/exr_premultipliedalpha_off.png

Note this is the dialog of Max 2010. In 2010 with Extension and higher, you get the Cebas OpenEXR module which seems to lack the ability to control the Alpha pre-multiplied option...

Alternatively, you can use a TGA file which is probably the only file format left in Max that lets you disable the pre-multiplied alpha option.

tool2heal
05-15-2011, 02:51 AM
frame buffer, saved .exr (uncompressed), saved .tga, without pre-multiplied alpha, lol.


http://img102.imagevenue.com/loc448/th_427579373_framebuffer_122_448lo.jpg (http://img102.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=427579373_framebuffer_122_448lo.jpg) http://img255.imagevenue.com/loc470/th_427580554_savedexr_122_470lo.jpg (http://img255.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=427580554_savedexr_122_470lo.jpg) http://img28.imagevenue.com/loc373/th_427582406_savedtga_122_373lo.jpg (http://img28.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=427582406_savedtga_122_373lo.jpg)

As for the difference between the image johnny uploaded and the same image opened in photoshop. they are different, but the only difference is the photoshop file is much less grainy, you can barely see the individual particles.

EDIT: I saved a TGA with pre-multiplied alpha on to, and imagine this, it came out looking exactly like the VFB.

http://img272.imagevenue.com/loc454/th_542831262_savedprem_122_454lo.jpg (http://img272.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=542831262_savedprem_122_454lo.jpg)

I was like HOLY S4IT! until i realized it came in with a black background, assuming it had no alpha because there was no transparent background I said "oh great there's no alpha again" (yes I talk to myself) but then checking the channels, and sure enough, there's an alpha. :O

EDIT: so then I open the image inside of AE, and guess what.

http://img298.imagevenue.com/loc51/th_429359467_savedprem0000000_122_51lo.jpg (http://img298.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=429359467_savedprem0000000_122_51lo.jpg)

dark again, and purple...
sooo... I figured at this point it must be something to do with AE right. so I clicked this little button on the display.

http://img295.imagevenue.com/loc426/th_429928245_areyoukidding_122_426lo.jpg (http://img295.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=429928245_areyoukidding_122_426lo.jpg)
And changed it from RGB, to RGB straight. And POOF!, like magic, the correct image.
are you kidding me? since when do I have to do that? I have never had to do that before, oh my god, I'm about to kick a tree. Did I just pull my hair out for 2 days and have you guys searching for answers over that? One button. One stinking button?!?!? and in my very first post! "maybe I hit some button by accident" I have never changed that setting before, and I have never hadthis problem, but then I realize, this might actually be the first krakatoa scene I have done since upgrading to cs5. Orrrr I'm just an idiot :) I pick the later

ruchitinfushion
05-17-2011, 07:07 AM
@Bobo.
I saw this tutorial
Frost Geo To Voxel (http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/frost-geometry-to-voxel-grid-c/)
But i want to make similer to this http://www.vimeo.com/16757496
So is this possible??

tool2heal
05-17-2011, 07:24 AM
That's all about box #2 man. make a heart out of polys, load up box #2 and use a birth grid, but restrict it to the volume of your heart. make sure they overlap a little so when you press play they explode out. render that, and reverse it. there's your forming heart.

You don't actually have to overlap them, use a physx switch, to turn off the sim. and a pbomb to make them explode, then just reverse the clip. much easier then trying to get them to 'form' the heart.

then make another sim with the heart falling, and splashing on the ground, put the two clips together and you have what your looking for.

That's the first approach I would try to take, would love to hear some other though :)

mickatt
05-18-2011, 12:30 PM
Hi bobo,

Is it possible to use a Realflow BIN meshes sequence on a PRT Volume to render in Krakatoa?

Thanks for your answer

mickael

tool2heal
05-18-2011, 04:58 PM
it's possible to to use a prt volume on a frost mesh so I don't see why it wouldn't be possible
to use a prt volume on a realflow mesh. :)

Bobo
05-19-2011, 01:27 AM
Hi bobo,

Is it possible to use a Realflow BIN meshes sequence on a PRT Volume to render in Krakatoa?

Thanks for your answer

mickael




Yes, but be sure to download the very latest Krakatoa 1.6.1 build:
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krakatoa-downloads/

Previous versions of Krakatoa had an issue with updating the RF mesh loader (the animation was ignored and only the first frame was loading on all frames). This was fixed in the March build and the PRT Volume should be able to work with RF meshes, but I have not tested that myself.

ApaczoS
05-19-2011, 03:17 AM
Is it possible to use a Realflow BIN meshes sequence on a PRT Volume to render in Krakatoa?
[/left]

It's possible and it's working just fine, this is an example (09-23sec)with RF particles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umRzoHSXa7I&t=0m9s

mickatt
05-19-2011, 04:57 PM
Ok thanks a lot

PsychoSilence
05-24-2011, 09:49 PM
Ian Klemmer started a "Krakatoa Love" group over at vimeo:

http://vimeo.com/groups/krakatoalove

Feel free to join and contribute! Thank you for puttig it up there, Ian :) :bowdown::buttrock:

friedpixels
05-26-2011, 12:18 AM
Ian Klemmer started a "Krakatoa Love" group over at vimeo:

http://vimeo.com/groups/krakatoalove

Feel free to join and contribute! Thank you for puttig it up there, Ian :) :bowdown::buttrock:

Awesome! signed up and added a video!

Glacierise
05-29-2011, 07:24 AM
Yey :) Joined and posted :)

HeadSmell
06-16-2011, 06:51 AM
I am trying to render a FumeFxPRT with Smoke only from the fume grid. and would like the emission to get the smoke shader from FumeFx. Whats the proper workflow for this?

Jumped on the Krakatoa documents:
Krakatoa does not allocate a dedicated Smoke channel in the particle stream, it sets the Density of the particles based on the FumeFX Smoke channel.
Does this mean that Krakatoa doesn't bring in the color information?

Cheers

Glacierise
06-16-2011, 07:40 AM
It doesn't - that color is something FFX generates on rendertime, so no datachannel to get it from. You can make your own color though :)

HeadSmell
06-16-2011, 11:05 AM
Ah, good to know
Any one have any tips/tricks in a magma flow for dust type shading?

JohnnyRandom
06-16-2011, 04:38 PM
You can do about anything.

I like to use Temperature as the blend value. Multiply it down to a more "normalized" value, meaning for 0-1 and use a couple of vectors one dark and one light. It is about the simplest way to get a blended color scheme with your smoke. Typically with this the outside will be light and the core will be darker.

Bobo
06-16-2011, 06:35 PM
You can do about anything.

I like to use Temperature as the blend value. Multiply it down to a more "normalized" value, meaning for 0-1 and use a couple of vectors one dark and one light. It is about the simplest way to get a blended color scheme with your smoke. Typically with this the outside will be light and the core will be darker.

For a more gradual control of the shading by temperature, here is the documentation link:
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krak-fumefx-direct-rendering/#Temperature_Channel

JohnnyRandom
06-16-2011, 10:53 PM
I dig it, that is cool :)

bkravi
06-21-2011, 12:16 PM
Hi Bobo,

I am trying to render my realflow particles through krakatoa.

I loaded the particles using PRTLoader but want them to create collisions with other objects in my scene, So I created the KrakatoaPRTBirth event in pflow and added KrakatoaPRTUpdate node after that with Position,Velocity and ID channels turned ON.

The problem is that my pflow particles do not stick with my PRT Loader particles the look like once they are born they inherit the velocity position and then they just keep going on that towards direction.

Please guide me how can I exactly create Pflow particle using PRTLoader. I tried to look at online help but didn't understand the process.

JohnnyRandom
06-22-2011, 06:33 PM
Sorry, I maybe do not understand you completely.

You are trying to move particles (with collision) while you are setting their positions? That makes no sense. If you want the particles to keep the RF motion you need to add the collision objects to the RF simulation. You can't add collisions in pflow and expect that they will maintain their RF simulated motion that you are reading from the PRT Loader.

Bobo
06-22-2011, 11:03 PM
Hi Bobo,

I am trying to render my realflow particles through krakatoa.

I loaded the particles using PRTLoader but want them to create collisions with other objects in my scene, So I created the KrakatoaPRTBirth event in pflow and added KrakatoaPRTUpdate node after that with Position,Velocity and ID channels turned ON.

The problem is that my pflow particles do not stick with my PRT Loader particles the look like once they are born they inherit the velocity position and then they just keep going on that towards direction.

Please guide me how can I exactly create Pflow particle using PRTLoader. I tried to look at online help but didn't understand the process.

You can send the particles to an event without a Krakatoa PRT Update to "release" them from the PRT Loader's influence once the collision happens, and use PFlow forces and other operators to do what you want. Watch these two YouTube videos which show this workflow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps1FWERTRrs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2OPHxFCp_8

You could also disable Positions and only apply Velocities if you want to apply forces and collisions while preserving the original motion of the particles. The PRT Birth will give the particles initial positions, then all motion will be based only on Velocities.

bkravi
06-23-2011, 04:02 PM
Many thanks Bobo for your answer.

I want to test my PRTLoader particles with Krakatoa collision test event and then I want to delete the particles those do not collide with the geometry and keep the particles those do collide with geometry. but when I do the particles no more render(renders everything black). what wrong i am doing here?

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6144/pflow.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/pflow.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Bobo
06-23-2011, 04:56 PM
Many thanks Bobo for your answer.

I want to test my PRTLoader particles with Krakatoa collision test event and then I want to delete the particles those do not collide with the geometry and keep the particles those do collide with geometry. but when I do the particles no more render(renders everything black). what wrong i am doing here?

Good question.
*Are you running a commercial version of Krakatoa (the Collision test does not work in Evaluation mode).
*In the Krakatoa Log, does it actually list 0 particles? Or if you right click the PCache button in the Krakatoa GUI, does it say 0 particles there? Just trying to see if the particles are black, or no particles are returned by PFlow...


EDIT: Try using a regular Collision test with a simple Deflector and see if the same thing happens. If it renders black, the problem is not in the Krakatoa Collision.

Siahpoosh
06-24-2011, 01:51 PM
hi guys
is there any solution to using Groups in thinking particle with krakatoa ?
for example i have 2 group in my thinking particle :
first is bubble and second is smoke . i want to use frost for meshing the Bubble group but i cant meshing only bubble group .
i want to know how can i save only bubble particle group with krakatoa ?

i can use fumefx for only smoke particle group , but in frost or krakatoa i cant.

sorry for my english and thanx for help

Bobo
06-24-2011, 03:49 PM
hi guys
is there any solution to using Groups in thinking particle with krakatoa ?
for example i have 2 group in my thinking particle :
first is bubble and second is smoke . i want to use frost for meshing the Bubble group but i cant meshing only bubble group .
i want to know how can i save only bubble particle group with krakatoa ?

i can use fumefx for only smoke particle group , but in frost or krakatoa i cant.

sorry for my english and thanx for help

In Krakatoa 1.6.x, the Thinking Particles control panel is found in the Krakatoa Explorers (click the Explorers button at the bottom of the Main Controls rollout of Krakatoa GUI). You should see two lists - left one shows non-renderable groups, right one shows renderable groups. It simply visualizes the state of the Renderable checkbox of TP groups, and moving a group from right to left list makes it invisible to ANY renderer (including Krakatoa).

This means that you don't even have to use the Krakatoa Explorer > Thinking Particles rollout, you could open TP and uncheck the Renderable flag of the groups you don't want saved. But the Explorer speeds up this process when you have dozens upon dozens of groups to deal with.

Note that the Frost 1.1 build released two days ago (http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/news/2011/6/22/frost-11-released.html) adds the same functionality directly into its UI, so if you picked a TP system in the Frost object without saving intermediate PRT files via Krakatoa, you still have full access to the TP Groups and can define which ones to mesh and which ones to skip.

Siahpoosh
06-25-2011, 09:03 PM
In Krakatoa 1.6.x, the Thinking Particles control panel is found in the Krakatoa Explorers (click the Explorers button at the bottom of the Main Controls rollout of Krakatoa GUI). You should see two lists - left one shows non-renderable groups, right one shows renderable groups. It simply visualizes the state of the Renderable checkbox of TP groups, and moving a group from right to left list makes it invisible to ANY renderer (including Krakatoa).

This means that you don't even have to use the Krakatoa Explorer > Thinking Particles rollout, you could open TP and uncheck the Renderable flag of the groups you don't want saved. But the Explorer speeds up this process when you have dozens upon dozens of groups to deal with.

Note that the Frost 1.1 build released two days ago (http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/news/2011/6/22/frost-11-released.html) adds the same functionality directly into its UI, so if you picked a TP system in the Frost object without saving intermediate PRT files via Krakatoa, you still have full access to the TP Groups and can define which ones to mesh and which ones to skip.

Thanx a lot bobo :thumbsup:

M1KES
06-28-2011, 04:04 PM
Hi!
I was checking out krakatoa cause i will probably need it for a future project.. but unfortunatly it seems its not compatible with the visumotion plugin for 3ds max.. whitch is a plugin for creating stereoscopic 3d images and videos.. Does anyone have a solution for this?

Bobo
06-28-2011, 04:29 PM
Hi!
I was checking out krakatoa cause i will probably need it for a future project.. but unfortunatly it seems its not compatible with the visumotion plugin for 3ds max.. whitch is a plugin for creating stereoscopic 3d images and videos.. Does anyone have a solution for this?

I just watched a tutorial on how to use their plugin, and I am not 100% whether Krakatoa is incompatible with that plugin, or the other way round ;)
What happens when you try to use their batch render tool with their Camera in conjunction with Krakatoa?

JohnnyRandom
06-28-2011, 04:45 PM
It list in their FAQ they have trouble with Mental Ray to...


MAX Why is crashing when I use mental ray for rendering 3D? Just simply deactivate the "Rendered Frame Window" option in the Render dialog MAX. This seems to interfere with our own framebuffer call. So the framebuffer window will show up nevertheless quietly and mental ray gives an error message. But this and so the warning message from our plugin can be ignored.

Maybe try deactivating the VFB?

M1KES
06-28-2011, 05:58 PM
When i do a batch render.. max crashes right after starting it.. even after deactivating VFB..
If i just do a normal render while having the camera from the plugin it tells me this:
"The following render effects are not compatible with the bitmap format selected for rendering. The selected bitmap format is:

RGBA Color 32Bits/Channel

VisuMotion MultiView File Output"

Might not have anything to do with it, but its the only info i can gather from it..

HeadSmell
06-28-2011, 11:28 PM
got two quick questions:

1. I have a PRT with a few modifiers and a World space modifier on it, Is it possible to save out the PRT to have the deformations baked in?

2. Can I save out multiple PRTs to one prt/bin cache?

Cheers

JohnnyRandom
06-29-2011, 12:03 AM
Yes and Yes, haha beat Bobo to the punch! Although he will always have something important to add :)

Just re-Save to Sequence, Krakatoa will save whatever valid deformations that are applied to the stack.

For multiple PRT/bin just do the same, unless you have something split into groups, as long as the Save Type switch is enabled Save to Sequence is a global action.

Bobo
07-05-2011, 08:49 AM
haha beat Bobo to the punch!

That was easy, I was on a plane to Europe when you posted this ;)

I am at home in Bulgaria now, back online after End User Event 2011 in Utrecht where I showed some Krakatoa 2.0 stuff in addition to Krakatoa 1.6+Frost demos... I think people were quite excited about the present and the future.

Glacierise
07-05-2011, 09:34 AM
I think people were quite excited about the present and the future.

Yes they were! :beer:

Bobo
07-05-2011, 09:42 AM
Yes they were! :beer:

I think you are just easily excitable --> :bounce:

Glacierise
07-05-2011, 10:02 AM
This I am, but widening the subject sample shows some signs of giddiness too :D

JohnnyRandom
07-05-2011, 04:08 PM
That was easy, I was on a plane to Europe when you posted this ;)

I am at home in Bulgaria now, back online after End User Event 2011 in Utrecht where I showed some Krakatoa 2.0 stuff in addition to Krakatoa 1.6+Frost demos... I think people were quite excited about the present and the future.

I'll take what I can get :D

Oh vacation! Good for you!

Saw some Magma2-stuff you posted, very nice workflow improvements :)

joconnell
07-05-2011, 09:36 PM
Never got a chance to talk to you about fur after Bobo - Cheers for the talks though, I've been far too long away from krakatoa!

adom86
07-07-2011, 03:55 PM
Hey guys... I reading up on here about doing the 6 camera hack for reflections.... would this work for, lets say, a moving camera thats following particles flying over a water surface. So I would want to have the particle reflections in the water.

Thought I'd ask :D

Bobo
07-07-2011, 04:59 PM
Hey guys... I reading up on here about doing the 6 camera hack for reflections.... would this work for, lets say, a moving camera thats following particles flying over a water surface. So I would want to have the particle reflections in the water.

Thought I'd ask :D

Most probably it won't look good, unless the water is really nice and choppy.
Cubic reflections work best with roundish objects like spheres, teapots etc., and look really bad with flat objects like planes, cube etc. So depending on the curvature of your water surface, it might look good or really bad.

A possible workaround would be to render a fraction of your particles as tiny meshes in PFlow and reflect them instead of the Krakatoa particles. If the reflection is blurry enough, it might look better than trying to get the real thing reflecting.

That being said, we are working on some techniques for Krakatoa 2.0 to solve these kinds of problems once and for all...

adom86
07-07-2011, 05:25 PM
Ahhh thanks bobo.. shall give that a try and see what else I can do in nuke with it :)

JohnnyRandom
07-11-2011, 03:58 PM
You gotta be shit'n me... this is cool!

http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/snow-cover-using-frost-and-kra/

Nice one Bobo!

and here is what I really like about it :D


Using this setup, you could add more objects with literally millions of polygons and cover with millions of particles in reasonable channel processing and meshing times.

Bobo
07-11-2011, 04:32 PM
I am not a person to leave the word "reasonable" unqualified, so I took the same scene shown in the demo and increased the particle count to pretty much exactly 1 million (0 subdivisions, 68 particles per Region). Then I changed the Cylinder to 200 Sides with 100 cap segments and the Torus Knot to 1200 segments / 64 Sides for a total of 269,332 faces. Building the kd-tree (twice) and shooting 1 million rays and finding nearest points took approx. 6 seconds. Meshing the resulting 1 million particles took around 2 more seconds.

This is on my laptop with Dual Core i7 + HT (4 threads). I suspect my home Quad Core i7 (8 threads) would be a bit faster.

melatonin
07-11-2011, 04:50 PM
Hi there!
I'm pretty new to krakatoa and I'm a bit stuck when it comes to caching my particles. I have some particles moving in a spiral that were generated using fumefx and when I cache them with just Velocity and position they save fine. But I want my color to be based on age. When I add the age and lifespan channel to be saved to disk it takes a while to save the particles but when they finish and I open them with my loader I can only see a single particle. It must be saving some data since it takes a while, about 15 minutes for 100 frames. I have a delete operator on my fume particles of about 50 also. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks!!!

Bobo
07-11-2011, 05:14 PM
Hi there!
I'm pretty new to krakatoa and I'm a bit stuck when it comes to caching my particles. I have some particles moving in a spiral that were generated using fumefx and when I cache them with just Velocity and position they save fine. But I want my color to be based on age. When I add the age and lifespan channel to be saved to disk it takes a while to save the particles but when they finish and I open them with my loader I can only see a single particle. It must be saving some data since it takes a while, about 15 minutes for 100 frames. I have a delete operator on my fume particles of about 50 also. What am I doing wrong?

Hi!

Very strange, simply adding Age and LifeSpan to the list of channels to save should have no effect on what is getting saved, your PRT files should be just a bit larger than before. Are you saying that if you remove the Age and LifeSpan channels from the list of channels to save WITHOUT touching anything else in the flow you get all particles, but otherwise not?

There are a bunch of tools to check the actual content of the PRT files being saved - the PRT Loader shows the counts, the Particle Data Viewer tool will show you the channels of each particle in a spreadsheet and so on. You might want to look at the data to understand what is going on.

JohnnyRandom
07-11-2011, 05:56 PM
I like the Qualified answer :)


Danielle, possibly more importantly is HOW are you adding Age and Lifespan? It may be something elses fault causing the slowdown. That does just seem odd to me as well.

Oh this maybe related to that Age and ID validity issue. That is pretty specific setup though and I doubt your setup needs to check for live particles. Nevermind.

melatonin
07-11-2011, 06:00 PM
Hi!

Very strange, simply adding Age and LifeSpan to the list of channels to save should have no effect on what is getting saved, your PRT files should be just a bit larger than before. Are you saying that if you remove the Age and LifeSpan channels from the list of channels to save WITHOUT touching anything else in the flow you get all particles, but otherwise not?

There are a bunch of tools to check the actual content of the PRT files being saved - the PRT Loader shows the counts, the Particle Data Viewer tool will show you the channels of each particle in a spreadsheet and so on. You might want to look at the data to understand what is going on.


Thanks Bobo! I didn't know I could see what info was being saved. That will be helpful. That is true that the only thing that I've been changing is the channels being saved. I did get it working before by just importing everything into a new scene but then when I tweaked my fume fx and recreated the particles it started happening again so I thought I might have done something right that time by accident!

Thanks so much for your quick response!

melatonin
07-11-2011, 06:10 PM
I like the Qualified answer :)


Danielle, possibly more importantly is HOW are you adding Age and Lifespan? It may be something elses fault causing the slowdown. That does just seem odd to me as well.

Oh this maybe related to that Age and ID validity issue.

I'm adding the age and lifespan right below the save particles and following this great tutorial on the thinkbox site: http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krak-saving-particle-files/

Is there anything that I could be missing in the loader?
Thanks so much!

Bobo
07-11-2011, 07:48 PM
I'm adding the age and lifespan right below the save particles and following this great tutorial on the thinkbox site: http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krak-saving-particle-files/

Is there anything that I could be missing in the loader?
Thanks so much!

Obviously, the PRT Loader will display 1% of the particles in the viewport by default, but I am sure you know that and set it to 100%. In the "Particle Counts" rollout, you can press the "Update Info" button to see the current frame's count. See how many particles you get there. You can also select "Particle Count Graph" from the list and press the Update Graph to see a graphical representation of the particle counts over time.

Also check the PRT file size - if the files are several megabytes in size, chances are there are more than 1 particles in them ;)

JohnnyRandom
07-11-2011, 08:04 PM
EDIT(ed): My stupid question


Looks likes some tutorials on ALL of Krakatoa's many utilities of awesomeness would be useful :)

PsychoSilence
07-20-2011, 07:00 PM
Some new RnD...
PRT volumes and KrakatoaSkinWrap massacre :D

--Enter Sandman-- (http://vimeo.com/26687028)

friedpixels
07-20-2011, 07:47 PM
Some new RnD...
PRT volumes and KrakatoaSkinWrap massacre :D

--Enter Sandman-- (http://vimeo.com/26687028)

most excellent!

Glacierise
07-20-2011, 08:57 PM
That's quite promising :)

adom86
07-20-2011, 09:08 PM
Awesome Anselm!

Speaking of sandmen! I did a couple of shots but just using simple pflow/krakatoa and fume setups ... here is the link they are the first 3 shots so 8-20 seconds at the start.. ignore the rest (not krakatoa related) :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsmHomJIunE

savat
07-25-2011, 05:00 PM
Hi,
I know this is a theme already covered but I can't fix my goal:
a realflow stream inported by a PRT loader (ok), a KCM modifier on it to visualize velocity by color (ok), a frost mesh that assume the particles colors (fails).
I read about the workflow at thinkbox frost forum, other research ecc but I'm not able because of error messages like:

WRN: The material: 01 - Default requires map channel 0, which is not available (KRAKATOA) and other troubles .

unfortunately I haven't found scenes in the TBox forum, this is my test scene (without a realflow.bin file), how can I fix?

Bobo
07-25-2011, 07:44 PM
Open the MagmaFlow.
Somehow you managed to set the Output node to Color channel with type float16[1]. No idea how. Color channel should be (and is by default) of Arity 3, or in other words float16[3].

This causes the following error in the Frost Log Window:
ERR: BuildMesh: channel_map_adaptor.set: Channel "Color" has arity 3 in the source structure and its destination channel, "Color", has arity 1 in the destination structure, but they need to be the same for copying.

To fix, just click any other channel and back the Color channel and it will be set to float16[3]. Right after that Frost will start working.

savat
07-26-2011, 07:36 AM
Open the MagmaFlow.
Somehow you managed to set the Output node to Color channel with type float16[1]. No idea how. Color channel should be (and is by default) of Arity 3, or in other words float16[3].

This causes the following error in the Frost Log Window:
ERR: BuildMesh: channel_map_adaptor.set: Channel "Color" has arity 3 in the source structure and its destination channel, "Color", has arity 1 in the destination structure, but they need to be the same for copying.

To fix, just click any other channel and back the Color channel and it will be set to float16[3]. Right after that Frost will start working.

many thanks Bobo...effectively this error was caused by a confusion I started to do in tutorials, error logs and despair :banghead:.
the really question for me is is why the krakatoa color channel isn't transferred into frost mesh:

WRN: The material: 01 - Default requires map channel 0, which is not available

material 01 contain a "diffuse" gradient map set in vertex color channel map and frost a "diffuse" vertex color set to channel map 0.

Bobo
07-26-2011, 11:30 AM
many thanks Bobo...effectively this error was caused by a confusion I started to do in tutorials, error logs and despair :banghead:.
the really question for me is is why the krakatoa color channel isn't transferred into frost mesh:

WRN: The material: 01 - Default requires map channel 0, which is not available

material 01 contain a "diffuse" gradient map set in vertex color channel map and frost a "diffuse" vertex color set to channel map 0.

Are you saying it still does not work for you?

In Krakatoa, the channel Color is equivalent to the Map Channel 0 of 3ds Max. You are setting the Color channel with the KCM which you use as a Mapping channel instead as a pure color - the Gradient Ramp reads the Color channel as UV coordinates and sets the same channel (the Color of the particles!) to the result.

Then the Frost comes along and samples the Color channel of the closest particles into its vertices. If you assign the material with the Vertex Color Map, the colors generated by the Gradient Ramp on the particles are found in the vertices of the mesh and rendered just the same.

An alternative approach would be to evaluate the Gradient Ramp on the Frost itself. You could change the KCM from Color channel output to, say, Mapping2 and assign no material to the PRT Loader. Then the Frost mesh would sample Mapping2 into its second UV channel and if you assign the Material with the Gradient Ramp and switch the Gradient Ramp to Explicit Map Channel 2, the map would be evaluated on the mesh based on the UVs generated for the PRT Loader...

Both approaches work for me here, let me know what doesn't work for you.

savat
07-26-2011, 03:27 PM
Are you saying it still does not work for you?

In Krakatoa, the channel Color is equivalent to the Map Channel 0 of 3ds Max. You are setting the Color channel with the KCM which you use as a Mapping channel instead as a pure color - the Gradient Ramp reads the Color channel as UV coordinates and sets the same channel (the Color of the particles!) to the result.

Then the Frost comes along and samples the Color channel of the closest particles into its vertices. If you assign the material with the Vertex Color Map, the colors generated by the Gradient Ramp on the particles are found in the vertices of the mesh and rendered just the same.

An alternative approach would be to evaluate the Gradient Ramp on the Frost itself. You could change the KCM from Color channel output to, say, Mapping2 and assign no material to the PRT Loader. Then the Frost mesh would sample Mapping2 into its second UV channel and if you assign the Material with the Gradient Ramp and switch the Gradient Ramp to Explicit Map Channel 2, the map would be evaluated on the mesh based on the UVs generated for the PRT Loader...

Both approaches work for me here, let me know what doesn't work for you.

sorry Bobo,
at this point I think is my brain that fails...low oxigen? I don't know.
I preparred a better test scene and hope you excuse my insistence on this argument but...if you have time, may look at it?
sorry again for time consuming.

Bobo
07-26-2011, 04:12 PM
sorry Bobo,
at this point I think is my brain that fails...low oxigen? I don't know.
I preparred a better test scene and hope you excuse my insistence on this argument but...if you have time, may look at it?
sorry again for time consuming.

You should stop following tutorials blindly and try to understand what you are trying to do. ;)
In both your flows, you multiply the existing Color channel by the Magnitude of the Vorticity. But the existing color channel doesn't even exist in the BIN stream of realflow, so you end up using the object color of the PRT Loader instead! How is that going to produce valid UVW coordinates?

What you want is the Magnitude of the Vorticity (or whatever control channel you want) converted to a Vector (it is enough to feed the value into the first input socket of the ToVector operator and set the other two to 0, or feed the value into all 3, it doesn't matter since the Gradient cares about the U only).

The only reason you might want to multiply the existing Color channel would be if you were stacking a second KCM on top of the previous one and you want to read the result of the bottom KCM into the top KCM and modify that instead of overriding it. But since you don't have two KCMs and don't even have a valid Color channel, it goes terribly wrong.

A simpler way to fix your flows without rewiring would be to switch the Color Input node to Value > Vector > [1,1,1] - so you would be multiplying white with the results of the Magnitude calculation...

savat
07-27-2011, 08:05 AM
.
.... it goes terribly wrong.


effectively my knowledge of magma flow is 0 and I wanted to venture into this mess without first digesting the theory comes first.
Using a vector, like you said, turns out the right result on Frost.
I'll remember your advice and I'll do a copy / past of our discussion to help in learning the magma flow editor.
What I don't understand is why there is low good teaching material of Krakatoa on the net (3-4 videos and the guide/tutorials of Thinkbox).
Like for thinking particle... it's time to explane Krakatoa in production.
Last but not last, thanks again Bobo.

bkravi
07-27-2011, 01:09 PM
Hi Bobo,

I am stuck with the black rendering problem again.

here is what I am doing.

I am using Pflow to generate the particles on a surface and using material to control there density.

the problem is no matter what i do everything renders black.
my particles are having white color, I checked the particle count in krakatoa by right clicking in Pcache button and there are almost 1 million particles in krakatoa's memory. in rendering if I check the alpha channel it also shows black, I tried different combinations of final pass density but no luck, there are 3 lights in my scene, i also tried saving the particles and reloading with prtloader in a new scene but same problem, i tried overriding the density in global render values rollout but still black.

now But the interesting thing is if I turn on force additive control button in main controls rollout then I can see the particles. but I cannot use it because it dosent calculate shading on my particles, they all appear white.

Bobo
07-27-2011, 03:38 PM
Hi Bobo,

I am stuck with the black rendering problem again.

here is what I am doing.

Thank you, this was a wonderful explanation of what you were doing, most people don't take the time to describe their problem in detail... :)
Unfortunately, I don't see anything wrong with what you did, so I will need some more info.
If you can send me the actual Max file (or a simplified version of it), it would be very helpful.
If not, you could try sending me the History file generated when rendering one frame. You can find the last History file by going to the "Presets and History" rollout, clicking on the "Explore Folder..." button and looking in the "History" directory for the latest .KrakatoaSettings file. This file contains all UI settings from your render attempt, and I could look for possible issues there. But seeing the Max file would be easier...

bkravi
07-27-2011, 07:26 PM
hi bobo,

while preparing max file for you i noticed one thing. i actually have two particle systems. i first worked with my RF sim by loading it in prt loader and worked out the required density of 80 and exp -3 for the look i was looking for. now when i created my second particle sys. with pflow i thought i should get the same look with that density. but now i tried to come down to almost .5 density and 1 exp. and no i started to see the particles. but the problem is that the prt loader particles look almost too overbright with this density. is there anyway i can render them both looking good with one density value for both?

Bobo
07-27-2011, 08:04 PM
hi bobo,

while preparing max file for you i noticed one thing. i actually have two particle systems. i first worked with my RF sim by loading it in prt loader and worked out the required density of 80 and exp -3 for the look i was looking for. now when i created my second particle sys. with pflow i thought i should get the same look with that density. but now i tried to come down to almost .5 density and 1 exp. and no i started to see the particles. but the problem is that the prt loader particles look almost too overbright with this density. is there anyway i can render them both looking good with one density value for both?

Obviously, you could add a KCM to the PRT Loader and multiply its density by any amount necessary to make it look like the other. Alternatively, the Visibility track of the PRT Loader is also used to scale the density, but it is kind of hidden in the Object Properties dialog and is difficult to see/access/set. Also, if the PRT Loader uses a Material, the Opacity of the material will scale the particle Density. I would go with a KCM if I were you.

Also, if you are using any Self-Illumination / Emission on your particles, Krakatoa v1.6.1 has a separate controls for the Emission strength independent from the Density, don't forget to tweak those. If you are not using Emission, ignore this warning ;)

Let me know if the KCM helps - just set the Output node to Density, the Input node to Density, then with the Input selected, hit * on the Numeric Keypad to create a Multiply node, then hit Ctrl+1 to create an Input Value. Change from 1.0 to 0.001 or something and see if the particles get dimmer. If you want them brighter, increase the value and so on...

bkravi
07-29-2011, 01:03 PM
Obviously, you could add a KCM to the PRT Loader and multiply its density by any amount necessary to make it look like the other. Alternatively, the Visibility track of the PRT Loader is also used to scale the density, but it is kind of hidden in the Object Properties dialog and is difficult to see/access/set. Also, if the PRT Loader uses a Material, the Opacity of the material will scale the particle Density. I would go with a KCM if I were you.

Also, if you are using any Self-Illumination / Emission on your particles, Krakatoa v1.6.1 has a separate controls for the Emission strength independent from the Density, don't forget to tweak those. If you are not using Emission, ignore this warning ;)

Let me know if the KCM helps - just set the Output node to Density, the Input node to Density, then with the Input selected, hit * on the Numeric Keypad to create a Multiply node, then hit Ctrl+1 to create an Input Value. Change from 1.0 to 0.001 or something and see if the particles get dimmer. If you want them brighter, increase the value and so on...



Thanks Bobo, that worked with for PRT LOADERS but I dont know how to apply KCM to standard PFLOW events?

Bobo
07-29-2011, 09:21 PM
Thanks Bobo, that worked with for PRT LOADERS but I dont know how to apply KCM to standard PFLOW events?

Currently you cannot apply a KCM to a PFlow directly, you have to bake it to PRT first.
But if you set up the scene to render the PFlow correctly, then you have to adjust the PRT Loader to match, right?

PerfectLine
07-30-2011, 01:31 AM
Hello Bobo, I am currently trying to use a prt sequence from Naiad loaded into max using the PRT loader in Krakatoa. At the moment I am testing a single frame. The render looks like it is supposed to but when I enable motion blur with 5 passes (particle segments) I can't see the motion blur working. Do I need the full sequence for this to work OR can it work on a single frame? I figured it would since the prt file is supposed to have velocity information.

Thanks.

Bobo
07-30-2011, 05:40 AM
Hello Bobo, I am currently trying to use a prt sequence from Naiad loaded into max using the PRT loader in Krakatoa. At the moment I am testing a single frame. The render looks like it is supposed to but when I enable motion blur with 5 passes (particle segments) I can't see the motion blur working. Do I need the full sequence for this to work OR can it work on a single frame? I figured it would since the prt file is supposed to have velocity information.

Thanks.

Hi Casey,

Yes, you are supposed to get motion blur, assuming the PRT file actually contains valid velocities.
The PRT file format is a bit like OpenEXR - it supports arbitrary channels, and Velocity is one of the possible channels, but it can or cannot be there depending on what exported it. The PRT exporter for Naiad should contain Velocity, but you should check to make sure it actually does.

Several things to look at:
*If the checkbox "Load Single Frame Only" is checked, the Velocity will be set to 0 (because a single frame over time with Velocity makes no sense most of the time), unless the "Keep Velocity Channel" option is checked. (Here is one example of why one might want the velocity of a single frame: http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krak-single-frame-constant-mot/ )

*If the Graph option is enabled and the Graph spinner is not keyframed, no Velocity will be visible again because the same frame would be shown over time and the same story applies as above. But you cannot even check the checkbox in that case, you MUST have animated timing.

*In the PRT Loader, press the [>>] button next to the [Add Files...] and [Remove...] buttons and select "Open File Sequence Editor". It will show you the names and layouts of the channels. Look for "Velocity" of type float16[3] or float32[3]. Naming is case-sensitive.

*If it is listed, then you should peek into the data. One way is to switch the display of the PRT file in the Viewport to "Display Velocities". If the particles have valid velocities. they will be drawn as lines. If the Velocity is not there or 0, the particles will disappear.

*Another way to see the Velocities is to select the PRT Loader and open the Particle Data Viewer via the Krakatoa menu, the Krakatoa GUI or the provided MacroScript (shelf) icons. The PDV shows a spreadsheet with all channels and the actual values stored in them. If the Velocity channel exists, you will see its values and if they are not 0, you would see how they are. Note that Velocity in PRT files is expected as Units Per Second, not Per Frame or Per Tick or anything else, so it is possible that the values are too small if exported incorrectly. But the free PRT exporter for Naiad was written by my colleague Laszlo Sebo and we used it in production without problems, so I would expect it to have the right values.

*If the Velocities are there but appear too small, you can drop a Krakatoa Channels Modifier on the PRT Loader and scale the Vector any way you want. For example, set the Output to Velocity, select the Input Channel node and press the button "Same Channel As Output", then with the Input still selected hit * to make a Multiply node and press Ctrl+1 to make a Float Value Input with value of 1.0. Change the value to 10 or 100 or whatever and the existing velocity will be scaled and the motion blur boosted without changing the Motion Blur shutter... (see here for example: http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/krak-magmaflow-gijoe/#Modifying_Velocity_Channel )

HeadSmell
07-31-2011, 11:34 PM
Hi Bobo,
Just wondering if we can ever expect to see any TP Krakatoa nodes in the future?

Bobo
08-01-2011, 02:25 PM
Hi Bobo,
Just wondering if we can ever expect to see any TP Krakatoa nodes in the future?

Never say never :)
I have a prototype of a PRT Birth/Update operator for TP, but it is a scripted one (using the TP4 scripted operators). So it is very slow, but it works great (jn fact I think it works slightly better than the PFlow counterparts in some cases). We used it in production and it saved our behinds a couple of times.
So the first thing to do would be to improve the PFlow operators to behave like it when reloading "dead" IDs (currently if a particle ID dies, it cannot be reborn). Then we might release the scripted operator to the Beta to see what people think of it. And eventually reimplement it using the TP SDK for speed. But no promises since Krakatoa 2.0 is a huge enough effort already.

Then I had the PDV Operator which exposes arbitrary data to the Krakatoa Particle Data Viewer. It is also scripted but since it is very simple and does not perform complex operations, I think it could stay scripted. It is very useful for debugging TP flows (although PDV already shows a lot of info about TP channels even without it), so is also a candidate.

HeadSmell
08-02-2011, 12:27 AM
Thanks for the info Bobo,
Looking forward to the new 2.0 features btw.
Good to here there as already been some bridges made between TP and Krakatoa even if just scripted operators.

Glacierise
08-02-2011, 10:10 AM
Great to hear! It would be great if Cebas can help move this to the SDK so it gets faster. PRT loader and that PDV in TP are a dream!

DeKo-LT
08-11-2011, 12:30 PM
Beginner question:
if PRT have more channels than needed for rendering, file is readed completely or just those channels?

Bobo
08-17-2011, 06:44 AM
Beginner question:
if PRT have more channels than needed for rendering, file is readed completely or just those channels?

Krakatoa will READ the channels from disk, but only LOAD the ones it needs.
So there is a fine difference between what is being read from disk and what is actually used.
If you are concerned about the amount of data being read from the PRT file, then yes, all the data that's there has to be unzipped, but once the particles are processed, only the channels needed for rendering are stored in the memory stream. So if you are concerned about memory usage, then fear not, only what the Memory Channels rollout shows will be allocated.

Some channels might be needed as intermediate values and will be dropped after that. Some might not even exist in the PRT but still be allocated.

For example, you have a PRT file with Position, Velocity, Normals, ID and TextureCoord channels. You are rendering with default settings, so only Position, Color, Density and Lighting will be allocated per particle. So unless you turn on Motion Blur, the Velocity will be read and discarded. The ID channel will also be read but not used unless a KCM or a Krakatoa PRT Birth/Update asks for it. If your PRT Loader has a Material assigned to it and there is a Texture Map using UV Channel 1 in the Diffuse slot, the TextureCoord channel will be passed to it to evaluate the color, but then the Color will be allocated in memory, while TextureCoord will be discarded once the material is evaluated. Unless you enable >Use Environment Reflections or Phong Surface shading, the Normals channel will also be discarded. Since this PRT file does not provide a Density channel, the PRT Loader will assume a Density of 1.0 and that channel will be allocated in memory (it is always needed together with Position and Color).

Hope this helps...

melatonin
08-17-2011, 06:48 PM
Hey everyone, I just finished my reel in my spare time. It was done using max, krakatoa, fumefx, and nuke. thanks for looking!!

Danielle

FX REEL (http://vimeo.com/27475572)

xplodeworkshop
08-17-2011, 08:06 PM
hello guys!!! These days i m working on a KCM magma flow i did some test in fumefx then use fumefx birth for krakatoa render but wen i m going to shade it via material shader its giving me some problem like i use gradiant ramp for shading then its only showing me one color instead of three.. and same in magma flow.. please tell me how can i do this.. i need my shader effect like this.. even i m following this tutorial but still getting some problem, please help me.. thanks




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thoB837Rwj4&playnext=1&list=PLF5D8E09C9FB62C2E

Bobo
08-18-2011, 02:37 AM
... its only showing me one color instead of three..

First thing to check: Do you have a Delete operator in your Particle Flow to define a finite LifeSpan? If you don't, you are going to get only the first color of the Gradient.

If you do have a Delete operator, are you using a Gradient or a Gradient Ramp map?

NahuelL
08-19-2011, 12:24 AM
Hi,

I have a PRT Loader and I animated the Graph Spinner (so that the particles go very fast at the beginning and then they slow down). However when I change the Frame Offset (like from 0 to -10, so it starts on frame 10) the Graph animation is still from frame 0 to 100, but I would expect it to be from frame 10 to 110...
So how can I offset that curve without changing the keys?
The only workaround I found was to save the particles to disk again with the Graph animation (retiming), and then created multiple of them with a TP script with different frame offsets.

Thanks
Nahuel

Bobo
08-19-2011, 01:08 AM
Hi,

I have a PRT Loader and I animated the Graph Spinner (so that the particles go very fast at the beginning and then they slow down). However when I change the Frame Offset (like from 0 to -10, so it starts on frame 10) the Graph animation is still from frame 0 to 100, but I would expect it to be from frame 10 to 110...
So how can I offset that curve without changing the keys?
The only workaround I found was to save the particles to disk again with the Graph animation (retiming), and then created multiple of them with a TP script with different frame offsets.

Thanks
Nahuel

The Offset value is added to the value read from the Graph curve (see the text field in the PRT Loader which shows the actual frame being loaded). So it does not affect what time the curve will be evaluated at, but what the value of the curve will be. For example, if you have a key on 0 with value of 0, a key on 10 with value of 50 and a key on 100 with value of 100, if you enter Offset of -10, the actual frames loaded on 0, 10 and 100 will be -10, 40 and 90.

To shift the Graph itself, just open the Track View and slide its keys, or use the Track Bar. You can also use an Ease curve to shift keys around, just like with any controllers in Max, but that makes more sense if you want to tweak the curvature of the Graph.

NahuelL
08-19-2011, 01:41 AM
Thanks for your fast reply.

I may have not explained my problem very well. What I want to do is set like a Start Frame of the PRT Loader, but KEEPING the graph spinner (retiming). Changing the offset, will change the retiming and I don't want that.

Bobo
08-19-2011, 02:33 AM
Thanks for your fast reply.

I may have not explained my problem very well. What I want to do is set like a Start Frame of the PRT Loader, but KEEPING the graph spinner (retiming). Changing the offset, will change the retiming and I don't want that.

I don't understand what you want exactly. The Graph defines what frame plays when. If you want the graph to play your animation from frame 10 to frame 110, just shift all its keys in TrackView or Trackbar 10 frames to the right and leave Offset at 0.
If you want something else, please explain in a bullet point list so even an idiot (me) can understand ;)

NahuelL
08-19-2011, 04:06 PM
PRT Loader with 10 partitions (it's an explosion). I retimed the explosion with the Graph.
I have a shooting system in TP (a gun shoots to the ground).
I created a script op that takes the Impact Positions, and creates a several copies of that PRT Loader at the Impact Positions.
Also I need to offset the "Start Time" of the PRT Loaders, so the explosions start when the bullets hit the ground.
How can I do that? I'm looking for something similar to the "Start Frame" in FumeFX, so that I can offset it based on the impacts (and keeping the graph retiming)

Thanks
Nahuel

Bobo
08-19-2011, 05:47 PM
PRT Loader with 10 partitions (it's an explosion). I retimed the explosion with the Graph.
I have a shooting system in TP (a gun shoots to the ground).
I created a script op that takes the Impact Positions, and creates a several copies of that PRT Loader at the Impact Positions.
Also I need to offset the "Start Time" of the PRT Loaders, so the explosions start when the bullets hit the ground.
How can I do that? I'm looking for something similar to the "Start Frame" in FumeFX, so that I can offset it based on the impacts (and keeping the graph retiming)

Thanks
Nahuel


Thanks for the precise description! Now I get it.
Assuming the Graph was set to play from 0 to 100, in the script that clones the PRT Loaders simply shift the keys of the Graph controller to the start frame you want.

For example, if the explosion starts on frame 42, you have to move the keys by 42 frames to the right so the playback starts on that frame.

Something like

theTimeOffset = 42
theClonePRTLoader = copy theSourcePRTLoader --copy the source
moveKeys thePRTCloneLoader.playbackgraphTime.controller theTimeOffset

where theSourcePRTLoader is the variable holding a reference to the original loader with the Graph starting at 0. This will shift all keys of the copy's Graph controller to start on the frame defined by theTimeOffset, in this case 42.

Hope this helps.

NahuelL
08-19-2011, 06:27 PM
Thank you very much! It works like a charm! :)

xplodeworkshop
08-22-2011, 06:55 PM
hello sir.. i m generating particles from fumefx birth but as i see in my sims in the preview, my particles are not generating like that. it comes somewhere..., its happening wen i generated more particles above 5 million but wen i generate above 10 million it gets disappeared, i dont understand whts going here.. can u pls tell me wht is happening here? i m not able to raise my particles amount till 10 million...

adom86
08-22-2011, 08:01 PM
Hey, I believe it will be the same thing I had. Which is down to the amount of particles pflow can have born. This is an extract from bobo's answer to me :D

'There is a certain internal limit to the total number of particles PFlow can give birth to (due to limitations to the BornID generation, I believe).

This is not a limit to the number of particles alive at any given moment, but the number of particles that can be given a unique ID even if all previous particles have died already. If I remember correctly, the total number of particles a single PF System can generate is 10 million. So after 250 frames at 1MP/s and 25 fps (10 seconds), you would have given birth to 10M particles already and no new particles could be born because there would be no IDs left to assign to them.

If you have 25 fps, at frame 250 your particle count will start falling from 1M against 0 because no new particles could be created.

This is the MAIN REASON for the existence of the Krakatoa Partitioning subsystem.
If you need 2500 frames for example, you could set the Birth Rate to 100,000 and produce 10 partitions without running out of IDs.
Then combine the 10 partitions in one PRT Loader and you will have a million particles without running into the limit... '

Thanks to bobo again for that, helped a lot :)

xplodeworkshop
08-23-2011, 06:16 PM
Hey, I believe it will be the same thing I had. Which is down to the amount of particles pflow can have born. This is an extract from bobo's answer to me :D

'There is a certain internal limit to the total number of particles PFlow can give birth to (due to limitations to the BornID generation, I believe).

This is not a limit to the number of particles alive at any given moment, but the number of particles that can be given a unique ID even if all previous particles have died already. If I remember correctly, the total number of particles a single PF System can generate is 10 million. So after 250 frames at 1MP/s and 25 fps (10 seconds), you would have given birth to 10M particles already and no new particles could be born because there would be no IDs left to assign to them.

If you have 25 fps, at frame 250 your particle count will start falling from 1M against 0 because no new particles could be created.

This is the MAIN REASON for the existence of the Krakatoa Partitioning subsystem.
If you need 2500 frames for example, you could set the Birth Rate to 100,000 and produce 10 partitions without running out of IDs.
Then combine the 10 partitions in one PRT Loader and you will have a million particles without running into the limit... '

Thanks to bobo again for that, helped a lot :)



yeah really well said thx to bobo.. he always with us in every moments.......

Siahpoosh
08-25-2011, 12:50 AM
hi bobo
is there any chance to using particle color from krakatoa on Frost mesh (metaballs)?

thanx

Bobo
08-25-2011, 02:05 AM
hi bobo
is there any chance to using particle color from krakatoa on Frost mesh (metaballs)?

thanx

Absolutely, and it has been demonstrated in several Frost tutorials.
The Krakatoa Color channel corresponds to the Vertex Color channel in 3ds Max.
So when Frost meshes any Krakatoa system like a PRT Loader, PRT Volume etc, it interpolates the particle colors into the Vertex Color channel. The same is true for any of the 100 mapping channels, so you can have multiple color streams from Krakatoa to Frost. To see the colors in the viewport, just go to Object Properties and check Vertex Channel Display > Vertex Color and check Shaded, too. To render, add a Vertex Color Map to the Diffuse slot of the Frost material.

Siahpoosh
08-25-2011, 12:07 PM
Absolutely, and it has been demonstrated in several Frost tutorials.
The Krakatoa Color channel corresponds to the Vertex Color channel in 3ds Max.
So when Frost meshes any Krakatoa system like a PRT Loader, PRT Volume etc, it interpolates the particle colors into the Vertex Color channel. The same is true for any of the 100 mapping channels, so you can have multiple color streams from Krakatoa to Frost. To see the colors in the viewport, just go to Object Properties and check Vertex Channel Display > Vertex Color and check Shaded, too. To render, add a Vertex Color Map to the Diffuse slot of the Frost material.

thanx a lot bobo :beer:

Bobo
08-31-2011, 05:09 AM
If you have missed all the news on Thinkbox, go check out the Siggraph videos and news items, including a preview of Krakatoa SR (Stand-alone), an impressions video showing glimpses of the Monday Krakatoa Master Class, an article about performance and rendering more particles than humans on the planet, and so on.

Here are some links:

Krakatoa MX 2 Hair Rendering and Magma 2 (3 parts):
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/news/2011/8/22/krakatoa-mx-2-hair-demo-from-siggraph-part-1.html
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/news/2011/8/23/krakatoa-mx-2-hair-demo-from-siggraph-part-2.html
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/news/2011/8/24/krakatoa-mx-2-hair-demo-from-siggraph-part-3.html

Krakatoa SR 2 Hair Rendering (based on the previous 3 videos - 2 parts):
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/news/2011/8/29/krakatoa-sr-rendering-part-1.html
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/news/2011/8/30/krakatoa-sr-rendering-part-2.html

Siggraph 2011 Krakatoa Master Class Impressions:
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/news/2011/8/30/siggraph-impressions-video.html

Rendering 7 Billion Particles Per Frame:
http://www.thinkboxsoftware.com/news/2011/8/30/7bpf.html

DeKo-LT
08-31-2011, 11:50 AM
Those videos are most awesome that recently happens on entire internet. Thanks Bobo.