The Real Cost of Vista

[mech7]

This is not the fault of MS but from the movie companies as Sony, Universal etc etc as they force the content protection ms just makes sure the users are able to watch the protected content. Though i am against all the silly copy protection which only gets in the way of the consumer, i think your barking up the wrong tree :)

[ffear]

This is not the fault of MS but from the movie companies as Sony, Universal etc etc as they force the content protection ms just makes sure the users are able to watch the protected content. Though i am against all the silly copy protection which only gets in the way of the consumer, i think your barking up the wrong tree :)

Did you even read the article?

"In July 2006, Cory Doctorow published an analysis of the anti-competitive
nature of Apple's iTunes copy-restriction system ("Apple's Copy Protection
Isn't Just Bad For Consumers, It's Bad For Business", Cory Doctorow,
Information Week, 31 July 2006). The only reason I can imagine why Microsoft
would put its programmers, device vendors, third-party developers, and
ultimately its customers, through this much pain is because once this copy
protection is entrenched, Microsoft will completely own the distribution
channel. In the same way that Apple has managed to acquire a monopolistic
lock-in on their music distribution channel (an example being the Motorola
ROKR fiasco, which was so crippled by Apple-imposed restrictions that it was
dead the moment it appeared), so Microsoft will totally control the premium-
content distribution channel. Not only will they be able to lock out any
competitors, but because they will then represent the only available
distribution channel they'll be able to dictate terms back to the content
providers whose needs they are nominally serving in the same way that Apple
has already dictated terms back to the music industry: Play by Apple's rules,
or we won't carry your content. The result will be a technologically enforced
monopoly that makes their current de-facto Windows monopoly seem like a velvet
glove in comparison."

It's totaly MS driven...

[bluemess]

if thats the case ffear, then wont sanctions be placed on MS to stop this from happening. I claim to know very little about this subject, but people have always (including the government) tried to stop MS from monopolosing in certain sectors. wouldnt this be the same?

from what ive read, it seems that this would give MS an extremely advantageous position forcing everyone else out of the market. i thought that was illegal.

[Nichod]

The original statement still applies. MS is doing this copy protection for themselves. And I saw no where that they would own the premium content. The only thing that comes close to this is the requiring of certified drivers or hardware won't run. Which this makes perfect sense to me since it will eliminate many of the Windows issues people complain about. There is a lot more I could comment within that article. But the bottom line is all of this copy protection control has come about because of the massive pirating that takes place daily. So we have no one to blame but ourselves. I suspect things will adapt and there will be ways found around these "firewalls".

[NME-Se7eN]

My M-Audio MidiSport 2x2 and M-Audio Trigger Finger both do not have windows certified drivers. Mainly because getting certified is a huge pain in the ass for people who have a limited userbase, ala M-Audio. Likewise, Windows doesn't play nice with my favorite joystick, claiming the drivers are not certified and even the plugging in of my Philips Jukebox (because, unlike a vast majority of people out there, I refuse to allow a consumer convenience device dictate what music software I use just to tranfer my music onto the portable player. That's why I sold my iPod and why I passed on the Sony Walkman MP3 players).

The way I see it, Microsofts way is pretty much forcing companies with limited appeal to spend much more money just to be able to work with PCs. Keep the PCs free!

[Nichod]

See my previous post.

[ffear]

if thats the case ffear, then wont sanctions be placed on MS to stop this from happening. I claim to know very little about this subject, but people have always (including the government) tried to stop MS from monopolosing in certain sectors. wouldnt this be the same?

from what ive read, it seems that this would give MS an extremely advantageous position forcing everyone else out of the market. i thought that was illegal.

As someone who is known for monopolies MS is trying to use the iTunes version as Apple has gotten away with it.

As for many things if you get into bed with enough people you get what you want. MS is trying out a new bed as it were. The iTunes control over the industry is well known to anyone who takes the time to look and understand.

Look at my previous quote: "Apple's Copy Protection Isn't Just Bad For Consumers"
Now that MS sees how to use the guise of copy protection to gain controll they are foaming at the mouth at the potential for income.

[eks]

Suddenly, all this reminds me (again) of this old website: http://www.theyrule.net

Certainly this move is MS driven, but I doubt they made it without consulting some friends first.


eks

[Coliba]

The only thing that comes close to this is the requiring of certified drivers or hardware won't run. Which this makes perfect sense to me since it will eliminate many of the Windows issues people complain about.

According to that article the exact opposite will happen since the copy protection system(s) are so sensitive to tampering. It seems it would be quite easy to write a small application that would disable your whole system because it thinks you are trying to tamper with it. Plus it uses more CPU time to encrypt and decrypt streams and commands back and forth. How is that going to make a more stable system?


Highlights:

Alongside the all-or-nothing approach of disabling output, Vista requires that
any interface that provides high-quality output degrade the signal quality
that passes through it if premium content is present. This is done through a
"constrictor" that downgrades the signal to a much lower-quality one, then up-
scales it again back to the original spec, but with a significant loss in
quality. So if you're using an expensive new LCD display fed from a high-
quality DVI signal on your video card and there's protected content present,
the picture you're going to see will be, as the spec puts it, "slightly
fuzzy", a bit like a 10-year-old CRT monitor that you picked up for $2 at a
yard sale

Once a weakness is found in a particular driver or device, that driver will
have its signature revoked by Microsoft, which means that it will cease to
function (details on this are a bit vague here, presumably some minimum
functionality like generic 640x480 VGA support will still be available in
order for the system to boot). This means that a report of a compromise of a
particular driver or device will cause all support for that device worldwide
to be turned off until a fix can be found. Again, details are sketchy, but if
it's a device problem then presumably the device turns into a paperweight once
it's revoked. If it's an older device for which the vendor isn't interested
in rewriting their drivers (and in the fast-moving hardware market most
devices enter "legacy" status within a year of two of their replacement models
becoming available), all devices of that type worldwide become permanently
unusable.

Vista's content protection requires that devices (hardware and software
drivers) set so-called "tilt bits" if they detect anything unusual. For
example if there are unusual voltage fluctuations, maybe some jitter on bus
signals, a slightly funny return code from a function call, a device register
that doesn't contain quite the value that was expected, or anything similar, a
tilt bit gets set. Such occurrences aren't too uncommon in a typical
computer. For example starting up or plugging in a bus-powered device may
cause a small glitch in power supply voltages, or drivers may not quite manage
device state as precisely as they think. Previously this was no problem - the
system was designed with a bit of resilience, and things will function as
normal. In other words small variances in performance are a normal part of
system functioning. Furthermore, the degree of variance can differ widely
across systems, with some handling large changes in system parameters and
others only small ones. One very obvious way to observe this is what happens
when a bunch of PCs get hit by a momentary power outage. Effects will vary
from powering down, to various types of crash, to nothing at all, all
triggered by exactly the same external event.

With the introduction of tilt bits, all of this designed-in resilience is
gone. Every little (normally unnoticeable) glitch is suddenly surfaced
because it could be a sign of a hack attack. The effect that this will have
on system reliability should require no further explanation.

[Howitzer]

This is the largest bag of fud I have ever seen. I don't care how 'reputable' the writer may be, the only way people will know is if they try it for themselves... and if they don't like it, they can simply install Windows XP - which I hear Microsoft will be making available for another year. (Or Linux... maybe the hardware manufacturers and programmers will rebel and kill off the MS platform by developing only Linux and Apple applications and hardware.)

Only time will tell. If this paper is true, the government and the userbase will not tolerate it.

[DizzyJ]

I'd love to read a rebuttal by someone who has seen the Vista spec and really understands the issues involved. If 50% of the scenarios in the article pan out, it will radically alter, in the worst way possible, the computer industry. It's hard to imagine that Microsoft would create a system this flawed. But then again...

[Cronholio]

It's totaly MS driven...

No it's not. Yes MS is playing a part in it, but you also have the RIAA, MPAA, President Bill Clinton, a handful of Republicans and Democrats in the U.S. House and Senate, and pirates to thank for this. The reality is the DMCA has created an environment where MS MUST do this. It's not good for their customers and they know it, Bill Gates himself has said as much.

Yes it's about controlling distribution, but it's more about the content creators/providers controlling distribution and less about MS or Apple controlling the distribution channel. If MS or Apple does not provide protection for content, content creators aren't going to give them content to distribute, it's as simple as that. The media companies do not want to distribute content on a platform that leaves their content open to piracy, and if MS, Apple or any hardware or software company provides software that does not take reasonable measures to protect the content or worse, disregards content protection completely they will be in violation of the DMCA and the fine folks at the RIAA and MPAA will be able to take them to court.

What they are talking about here is not unique to Vista and it's not all Microsoft's evil scheme; Apple is also using similar methods, as are all stand alone HD-DVD and BluRay players, HDTVs, cable and satellite television and radio providers, mobile phones, and game consoles. It sucks, but if you want HD content and Digital distribution you won't be able to get away from it, even Linux is being affected by this.

[inguatu]

Blue Ray can already been copied to a HDD. It's only a matter of time before it's completely decrypted by some 15 year old in a remote region of some small country. Yup... millions of dollars spent to completely lock down content will be wasted by a single post on a website somewhere with a file for decryption. I disagree with what these companies are doing and the lengths they're going to protect their content, so much so that the consumers are left to pay the price. I'll definitely chuckle when it's cracked (not that I condone it.. umm no... not at all). :)

[UrbanFuturistic]

But the bottom line is all of this copy protection control has come about because of the massive pirating that takes place daily. So we have no one to blame but ourselves.Yes, obviously, by buying my music, films and software completely legitimately I have no-one to blame but myself and my ever increasing collection of CDs and DVDs. How exactly?

Anyway, looks like the music industry has finally woken up to what people have been trying to knock into their heads for the last 5-10 years: DRM a) doesn't at all prevent piracy and b) pisses off your customers bigstyle. In short, all DRM does is piss off the people who pay your damn wages. This'll be why Amazon are to sell DRM free mp3s on the level (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/12/19/amazon_download/) and Sony is still paying out damages (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-6145266.html).

Remember this next time you see a scientific report that seems to state the mind-numbingly obvious, there are people who wouldn't know the obvious if it bit them on the arse and it seems most of them work in senior management.

[ffear]

The media companies do not want to distribute content on a platform that leaves their content open to piracy

lol
Like Cds and DVDs?

What most are saying is correct. All this won't protect the content. What it will do is lock down and frustrate honest people.

[Kid Dynomite]

If MS or Apple does not provide protection for content, content creators aren't going to give them content to distribute, it's as simple as that.
As the author points out, would you rather watch a HD movie on a $50.00 DVR or DVD box, or a $1000 Vista Entertainment Center? Most people and almost all businesses use Windows to work, create, and get things done, not watch movies. I doubt that's going to change. Of course, it's not all about the entertainment industry. Microsoft is trying to protect itself from piracy as well. Whether any of this is going to work or turn into a fiasco will be interesting to watch.

What does make me angry is that now development costs for Windows DRM is passed on to the consumer via hardware, whether that hardware is run on Windows or not.

[pluMmet]

There is a lot more I could comment within that article.

I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Whether any of this is going to work or turn into a fiasco will be interesting to watch.

Yes very interesting. I just wanted to try to expose the ordeal so that people could have a informed opinion. People want to do the right thing but most are to busy/lazy to find out what that is.

What does make me angry is that now development costs for Windows DRM is passed on to the consumer via hardware, whether that hardware is run on Windows or not.

Though this is true the rest of the "Trusted Computing" effort is far more horrifing.

[ffear]

If anyone can remember Bill Gates a few short years ago B.Y.T. (Before You Tube) was a speaker at a convention where he stated that he believed that all media would soon be thru the internet.

With that in mind and the success of iTunes keeping out others and locking the system it's easy to see where MS is headed with all of this.

[Spin99]

This is all so nonsensical.
If MS gets a head start on new content protection technologies so what?
They'd still have to be the chosen ones by ALL the movie industry distribution channels.

After that they'd have to open their "chosen" technology to others, even if by court order.
Usually what happens with stuff like this is that some open source technology gets adopted.
After that MS writes their version, and so does Apple, and so do all the other Unix flavours.

You're probably hearing about the MS version of some new something.
Are people paranoid? I think so. You need to chill. Not :cool:

[Cronholio]

lol
Like Cds and DVDs?

What most are saying is correct. All this won't protect the content. What it will do is lock down and frustrate honest people.

CD and DVDs were invented prior to the DMCA and the ease of their piracy is the reason why we are getting DRM crammed down our throats now. For the first 12 years of the existance of the CD, consumers had no method to make a high quality digital reproduction of a CD. Same with DVDs, initially they had region protection, encryption, and there was no method for consumers to make a high quality digital reproduction. These formats became ubiquitous distribution methods and did offer some level of content protection for a short time. In the future content creators do not want to support any distribution method that does not go to extreme measures to prtect the content; they do not want a reapeat of the CD or DVD, that's what this is all about. They cannot however just stop distributing CDs or DVDs or they will not make any money. What they can do is apply pressure to try to ensure future distribution methods do a better job of protecting content.

I'm sure eventually any protetion they try to implement will be defeated. What I'm saing is MS is not entirely to blame for this, if you want HD and digital distribution this is a nuisance you are going to have to deal with, and you aren't going to escape it by switching to Apple or Linux.

[leigh]

Sorry guys, but we're cracking down on non CG-related threads from now on.