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View Full Version : CS3 not to have canvas rotation, lets take this opportunity to help Corel


crossbones
12-24-2006, 10:46 PM
http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/messageview.cfm?forumid=72&catid=626&threadid=1224114&enterthread=y#4409830

In this discussion the engineers behind photoshop come out and admit they couldn't get photoshop to work like painter in regards to canvas rotation. I think their ignorance to listen to people and their excuses makes me sick. I think we should talk with corel and help them with their next version make painter more like photoshop, whether it means copying specific tools like warp and transform to layer organization and vanishing points.

This leaves Adobe without offering any features to digital painters. I think we can seriously gain market on them here.

ThePhotographer
12-24-2006, 11:01 PM
Don't forget that PhotoShop is above anything a tool for photographers ....

crossbones
12-24-2006, 11:53 PM
but 90% of the digital artists out there are using it for digital painting. The truth is we need to have a tool like photoshop-painter combined. Corel can implement features most often used by digital painters in photoshop right into Painter.

Tagger
12-25-2006, 12:05 AM
and digital painters are what ? 0.5 .... maybe 1% of the people using photoshop ? :)

i think digital artists (painters) will keep buying both painter and pshop to use them side by side for the time beeing, so marketingwise i dont think it would make any difference.

zerae
12-25-2006, 12:35 PM
Adobe just wants you to keep buying the upgrades, if they released a version of Photoshop with everything we want no one would buy the future versions, the same way there are illustrators who are perfectly happy still using PS 5.5 or 7 till today. Clearly they are bluffing, you have to read between the lines. I find it hard to believe that the majority of PS customers are photographers, I would bet that designers+illustrators+publishers are the real market of Photoshop.

BTW just saw a preview of CS3 on Lynda's site the other day and I can't believe what an incredible job Adobe did with the UI, really excellent, designing at its best.

As for canvas rotation and all that check this interview with the father of Painter (no not Corel) http://www.maxschoenherr.de/radio/radioCurrent/MarkZimmer/markZimmer.html you can hear how they would come up with all those features we like in Painter, Mark Zimmer also tells how he started from scratch at some point with Painter, seeing what a mess Corel did with Painter I think its time they did the same, a restart so to speak. C'mon for years people have been asking for them to anti-aliase the zoom and rotate canvas feature but do they do it? No! The code must not be very clean considering how many different studios and programers worked on it, so it's probably too much work for Corel to correct all the very serious bugs in Painter.

Check also http://www.systemax.jp/sai/ SAI is a wonderful program all designed and developed by a single person, although there will be a english version in the future I would rather see Adobe buy it to speed up the progress than Adobe buying Painter just for sake of the canvas rotation on Painter IX.5, also contrary to Painter, SAI has anti-aliased canvas rotation and zoom among a ton of very fresh and cool features!

brenly
01-02-2007, 02:45 PM
has Corel forgotten about Painter .. I havent heard anything for ages about any upgrades?? Seriously due!!

what are the brushes like in SAI??

leigh
01-02-2007, 11:17 PM
http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/messageview.cfm?forumid=72&catid=626&threadid=1224114&enterthread=y#4409830

In this discussion the engineers behind photoshop come out and admit they couldn't get photoshop to work like painter in regards to canvas rotation. I think their ignorance to listen to people and their excuses makes me sick. I think we should talk with corel and help them with their next version make painter more like photoshop, whether it means copying specific tools like warp and transform to layer organization and vanishing points.

This leaves Adobe without offering any features to digital painters. I think we can seriously gain market on them here.

Yeah, let's all start a campaign against useless, pathetic and ignorant Adobe. How dare they not put in a canvas rotation tool - they obviously hate painters and don't want any painters to use their software!!! It's clearly a conspiracy.

Come on now, really. This is just silly. I am sure they have a real reason why they cannot implement this feature, but that doesn't mean they're some evil empire producing a product that they're forcing you to buy. If you want Corel features, use Corel. It's really as simple as that.

crossbones
01-03-2007, 12:38 AM
--edited--

leigh
01-03-2007, 12:49 AM
I would not 100% expect you to undersand my view, as yours is from a texture painter and you don't have a heavy need for canvas rotation or a tablet for that matter.

You're kidding, right? I spend an average of 8 hours a day in Photoshop with a tablet. It's what I do for a living.

For what it's worth, I've requested the canvas rotation feature during two beta cycles now, but even so, I understand if they're unable to do it. There are loads of other things to love about Photoshop.

erilaz
01-03-2007, 12:58 AM
So are you complaining that Photoshop doesn't have one feature of Painter or Painter doesn't have enough features like Photoshop?
A tool is a tool. Painter is a painting tool, Photoshop is a photo tool. The fact that you can use either for the same tasks doesn't mean they should become multi-user featured.

Besides, I can't see the point of a rotation tool when you can pick up your wacom tablet like a piece of paper and rotate that. It's always worked for me.

crossbones
01-03-2007, 03:22 AM
You're kidding, right? I spend an average of 8 hours a day in Photoshop with a tablet. It's what I do for a living.

For what it's worth, I've requested the canvas rotation feature during two beta cycles now, but even so, I understand if they're unable to do it. There are loads of other things to love about Photoshop.


I know you've done this for a living at CafeFX up north specifically, and I meant no direspect at all. Your dam good at what you do as well. I was saying that, Painting textures for 3D model on a set of UVs(its definately an advantage to have a tablet) is different from doing an entire painting for production or matte. Its not the same as painting an entire scene or a character/vehicle for production design. Your going to use your arm differently and your thinking differently. You could technically paint with a mouse in photoshop to paint textures as you would be surprised how many actually do and you'd never know the difference. Your also right, photoshop has many features to love about it, more so in some regards then painter.

Painter's strong points for digital painting, in my opinion are its brushes ability to actually blend underlying colors as opposed to painting transparently the way photoshop does. Its not wrong of me to request features or really try to push features in software I use reguarly.

I think its understanble if they aren't able to do canvas rotation, but nonetheless its same feeling I would have towards a 3D modeler which wouldn't be planning on integrating 3D sculpting/painting. Its not necessary, but sure makes things a hell of alot easier.

Think about how many were resistant to Zbrush 1 and Zbrush 2 (intially).

el_diablo
01-03-2007, 11:55 AM
On other note...$20 program Artrage has canvas rotation and fliping for a while now...
Thats why i do my sketching in it then move out to GIMP or Ps for coloring.

leigh
01-03-2007, 11:41 PM
I know you've done this for a living at CafeFX up north specifically,

I've been doing it for a living for more than seven years now, for various studios, north and south :)

and I meant no direspect at all.

None taken.

Painting textures for 3D model on a set of UVs(its definately an advantage to have a tablet) is different from doing an entire painting for production or matte.

Not always. This is why I did, as I mentioned, request the rotate canvas feature a few times myself. I learned to paint using oils and acrylics on canvas, so I have a very "naturalistic" style of painting, even when painting in UV space. I still do a lot of handpainted details on textures, so my style of using my Wacom may not be as different to matte/digi painting as you think.

I was just a bit taken aback at your response to the fact that Adobe aren't going to implement this feature, that's all. While canvas rotation would definitely be a handy thing to have, I can't really fathom why you were so very upset about it not being included in Photoshop.

crossbones
01-04-2007, 12:03 AM
I've been doing it for a living for more than seven years now, for various studios, north and south :)



None taken.



Not always. This is why I did, as I mentioned, request the rotate canvas feature a few times myself. I learned to paint using oils and acrylics on canvas, so I have a very "naturalistic" style of painting, even when painting in UV space. I still do a lot of handpainted details on textures, so my style of using my Wacom may not be as different to matte/digi painting as you think.

I was just a bit taken aback at your response to the fact that Adobe aren't going to implement this feature, that's all. While canvas rotation would definitely be a handy thing to have, I can't really fathom why you were so very upset about it not being included in Photoshop.


i know from Luke, Danny and all my buddies you did a great job on texturing for all the projects.

I went to school at Art Center where I learned how to design/draw/paint and the thing we were always taught is when necessary to roate the canvas. Your stroke never changes its always one movement (=>away from your rib cage). I worked normally at 14X17 sizes so I use much more my arm when I draw and paint. For ergnomics and repititve stress rotating the canvas is very much desired to alleviate.

If you ever seen ryan church,he spins the canvas for very much the same reasons I mentioned above. Essentially you want the best possible position to approach the canvas.

I was upset because I tested for PS 6, 7,CS, Cs2 and Cs3, I was told by various sources they were trying to accomplish this at adobe. When they made those really comments on the forums which projected an unpleasant attitude, I felt they should hear what their users want and are asking for at least from Cgtalk.
-=YARIV

Lunatique
01-04-2007, 11:41 PM
I used to bring up the whole "Let's get Corel to implement Photoshop's features so we don't need to use two apps anymore" thing all the time, but Corel has already made it clear that they aren't interested in competing against Photoshop--they want to concentrate on what makes Painter unique--its drawing/painting capabilities.

As far as Adobe goes, I don't know how seriously they take the digital artist users as opposed to the photographers or graphic designers.

smoothoperator
01-09-2007, 06:45 AM
I use photoshop on a daily basis at work and I can share some of the frustrations alot of people have with photoshop in contrast to Painter. I've been praying for a decent blending tool in PS that Painter has. It's never going to happen. As for the rotating of the canvas - just buy a cintiq.
When sketching in PS I feel like I'm using markers...not traditional media. It's just not meant to even compete with Painter in that area.
I'm surprised that Adobe isn't able to impliment anything they want. They must have the best programmers around.
Painter is amazing at what it does and I'm sure Adobe eyes it with admiration and at the same time with little motivation to impliment anything similar. They are Adobe after all right?
I think Corel has a better chance of making Painter incorporate Photoshop like tools and capabilities than vice versa...only question is...will they listen to thier user base and do it. Or will some other company be smart and fill the market need of the users. ;)
I know I have a few ideas that can be cool to impliment in a graphic/painter like program...

crossbones
01-09-2007, 06:50 AM
What does owning a cintiq have to do with canvas rotation? When you draw with a wacom tablet your hand doesn't get in the way, its a huge advantage. The cintiq is overated piece of technology that is really over-priced, but the leasing on it seems like an option.

I am actually trying to push taron, www.taronites.com to create his own painting program.

almostkungfu
01-09-2007, 08:13 PM
Hm, software like Painter and Photoshop are really really complex structures, so I'm not sure if adding all these features is as easy as it sounds like.
(Reason why Adobe can't just add this rotation, I guess)

What does owning a cintiq have to do with canvas rotation?
Well, you would just rotate the Cintiq, instead of rotating the image digitally?

crossbones
01-09-2007, 08:19 PM
yeah but cintiq is not paper thin nor is it that easy to rotate. The advantage of rotating digitally is immensly more powerful as your orientation doesn't change at all, its extremely easy (not to mention 3 thousand dollars cheaper).

Improv
01-09-2007, 08:42 PM
yeah but cintiq is not paper thin nor is it that easy to rotate. The advantage of rotating digitally is immensly more powerful as your orientation doesn't change at all, its extremely easy (not to mention 3 thousand dollars cheaper).

A cheaper solution than a Cintiq would be like the wireless Graphire4 Bluetooth-just rotate the tablet. However I don't think the Intuos line has a Blue Tooth model.

Far easier to rotate a Graphire or Intuos-both physically and cost wise! :-)

erilaz
01-09-2007, 10:19 PM
...When you draw with a wacom tablet your hand doesn't get in the way, its a huge advantage...


I disagree with that. The cintiq allows you to draw in a far more natural fashion, and the rotation is smooth. The downside is very much the expense, but most people swear the cost is worth it.

smoothoperator
01-10-2007, 04:13 PM
What does owning a cintiq have to do with canvas rotation? When you draw with a wacom tablet your hand doesn't get in the way, its a huge advantage. The cintiq is overated piece of technology that is really over-priced, but the leasing on it seems like an option.



Does your hand get in the way when your drawing on paper or painting on canvas? I was thinking about this one also until that question popped into my mind. I haven't yet used a cintiq but I will be in a few months. I figure it will be better mimicking what I used to do in my art classes. I'm getting a very good price for one so I figured...why not. Should be worth it.
It doesn't solve the other issues spoken here on this thread though. It would be nice to see one of these companies come up with something for us to use ONE app.

Spin99
01-10-2007, 09:14 PM
Peeps I can even see that it can be advantageous to rotate a digital canvas (?)

Yet I remember taking classes on draughtsmanship, and paper gets taped to the board.
One of the drawing exercises was doing parallel strokes from all four corners,
towards the centre. In 4 different directions, even.
We weren't allowed to rotate the board btw (!)

Sheesh digital people are spoilt, not?

Improv
01-11-2007, 12:59 AM
Peeps I can even see that it can be advantageous to rotate a digital canvas (?)

Yet I remember taking classes on draughtsmanship, and paper gets taped to the board.
One of the drawing exercises was doing parallel strokes from all four corners,
towards the centre. In 4 different directions, even.
We weren't allowed to rotate the board btw (!)

Sheesh digital people are spoilt, not?

"Work smart, not hard!" lol!!!

crossbones
01-11-2007, 10:21 PM
I've been trying the cintiq, its nice, but rotating it isn't the easiest thing compared to just hitting a hotkey. Also when you do rotate the canvas and go to paint again, your brush stroke still goes in the same direction/ angle as if it wasn't rotated at all. With painter when I rotate the canvas I can attack it from very different directions. That's why you need digital canvas rotation.

People still make the arguement that tilt isn't a necessary feature in digital painting, but I can't tell you how often it comes up with every stroke I make that i tilt my stylus to shade certain areas.

If Apple creates a Cintiq like-tablet in the near future I would consider buying one.

smoothoperator
01-12-2007, 12:53 AM
If Apple creates a Cintiq like-tablet in the near future I would consider buying one.

With the release of the new iPhone they have the technology now. So I don't see why they wouldn't be developing a damn tablet. I would also jump at getting one too. Really fast. They are using everything now to back that iPod device because it's Apple's bread and butter. I wonder how long it will take them to release a tablet...maybe WWDC? Here's 1 person praying..

crossbones
01-12-2007, 01:41 AM
I saw it at CES, its 3rd party, but it only has 256 levels of pressure (No tilt though). This new patented technology seen in that Ipod phone thing is not what is particular product is.

Improv
01-12-2007, 03:32 AM
but it only has 256 levels of pressure

What good is that? Even the Graphire4 has 512 levels of pressure, and the Intuos of course has 1024.

Sounds more like a prototype.

ThePhotographer
01-13-2007, 12:15 AM
If I was an Adobe person, I guess the most urgent thing to do would be to make raw file treatment more easy and that's most probably the thing all the photographers in the whole wide world wait for.

As I said before : PhotoShop is above everything for photographers. I really believe that that's the sort of customers that Adobe want to give a treat. Let's see when CS3 gets out - I'd bet that they first of all try to satisfy the enormous amount of customers they have in the photo area.

Why is this thread in the Painter section anyway ? It should be in the PhotoShop section ....

martinsdesign
01-13-2007, 02:08 AM
with the exception of the cool brushes, namely the water color effects, and the free canvas rotate, PAINTER IS A GOSH DARN FUDGING WASTE OF MONEY when compared to Photoshop.

I have owned Painter 6 (rare find cheap during the 8 era, I was a huge Justin Sweet fan : ), 7, 8 and 9. I have burned through two of the Wow books and feel that I am an intermediate to advanced user with regards to sheer technical knowledge and knowing what it can or can't do. Unfortunately, I am completely dependent on free rotate. Fortunately I am more focused on 3d and am moving away from 2d...phew...

I am SICK of people making excuses for Painter's SHAMEFULLY BUGGY operation...I don't think I have ever crashed Pshop except for odd plugins and hanging it on silly sized files. Painter has always been a mess in that department, but I must confess that it has improved in 9, especially with their emergency save-on-crash feature. Nice of them to add that : )

Photoshop makes painter look like MS paint, LITERALLY!!! in the areas of Layer capabilities and workflow, alpha maps/selection management, transforms, color management/adjustments, and paths. I am a bit of a, I-know-how-to-use-Photoshop-therefore-I don't-use-filters kind of Snob, BUT...need I elaborate?

There is more and the above are pretty broad, but I am trying to limit my b***ing to the absolutely comparable

The brushes are great, I am not trying to be some biased A-hole. I have tried to get away from free rotate but have been unable, it is an AWESOME feature that Painter has exclusively.

Again, I am sick of the painter excuse makers..."each program has its place"...

My theory is that Adobe is afraid of some kind of monopoly issue, (I know they were the 3rd largest software company in 2000, I imagine that hasn't changed too much) therefore they haven't implemented free rotate.

Photoshop with free rotate would deplete Painter's fan base signifigantly and, anyone who recommended Painter under those circumstances in an "either/or" question with a newbie should be shot in the face with a spray bottle.:twisted: Painter exists at the whim of Adobe. I know that free rotate has been begged for for years and I am quite certain that Adobe could figure it out if they wanted to.

I will use Painter for natural media textures (I want to keep my apartment/work space clean and don't want to own a scanner again) and I do use it as scratch paper for maths and such, usually because I have stuff setup in Pshop and don't want to be distracted from what is going on in there.

If you absolutely fall in love with certain tools that you are CERTAIN can't be reproduced in Photoshop, go for it....otherwise it is a joke with decent marketing, groveling in the shadow of Pshop.

I already feel bad about writing this, but I have been feeling this way for years and it really makes me unhappy. Maybe CS4...

OR, Corel can just swallow their pride and thoroughly emulate Photoshop's interface, abilities and solidity.

There is some incredibly talented people that stand by Painter; and my body of work, or lack there of, is begging to get me flamed on this topic. Regardless, I have tried to keep my rant limited to hard nuts and bolts terms. with a little PG-13 language.

Martin

ScottC
01-13-2007, 03:47 AM
Photoshop makes painter look like MS paint, LITERALLY!!! in the areas of Layer capabilities and workflow, alpha maps/selection management, transforms, color management/adjustments, and paths.
I once heard some crazy people actually consider PAINTING to be the focus of painter.


My theory is that Adobe is afraid of some kind of monopoly issue, (I know they were the 3rd largest software company in 2000, I imagine that hasn't changed too much) therefore they haven't implemented free rotate.

Yeah, theyre terrified of it. They address their fear by maintaining a de facto monopoly on the digitial image handling and management hub. I heard Microsoft was afraid of de facto monopolies too. Autodesk?...also scared of monopoly issues.




Its probably not impossible to put canvas rotation in pshop, just moderately difficult. It would require some lateral innovation and a little effort, rather than the easy to achieve incrimental linear improvements and format support updates that prove just as profitable. As long as they are a de facto monoploy, they have no incentive to knock themselves out trying to innovate to please a niche audience. Youll buy it regardless.


As far as Corel Painter, the last thing it needs is more half-ass photoshop features and bloat. If youre a pro, you already have photoshop, and in no scenario that exists now or in the forseable future are you buying Painter as a photoshop substitute.


Painter needs to slim down, lose the unending lists of redundant tools, abandon the adobe interface emulation in favor of something that isnt quite as wretched , and something that feels as good as possible for an artist to use...in short, focus on being "Painter". Or they could do the logical thing , go the extra few steps and become one of the premiere official plug-ins for Photoshop. At least until Adobe gets around to buying Corel and forcing the issue.

In the age of Sketchbook and Artrage, Painter feels like a lumbering dinosaur, and is just a little further development in either of those programs, or programs like them, away from never seeing another cent from me for updates. But then, I'm just a painter.

Hecartha
01-13-2007, 02:02 PM
Painter needs to slim down, lose the unending lists of redundant tools, abandon the adobe interface emulation in favor of something that isnt quite as wretched , and something that feels as good as possible for an artist to use...in short, focus on being "Painter".
Just for curiosity could you please leave here the list of these redundant (useless?) tools? Or perhaps if the list is too long could you post the first five tools which are not necessary for digital painter?

Vince58
01-13-2007, 10:01 PM
Its probably not impossible to put canvas rotation in pshop, just moderately difficult. It would require some lateral innovation and a little effort, rather than the easy to achieve incrimental linear improvements and format support updates that prove just as profitable. As long as they are a de facto monoploy, they have no incentive to knock themselves out trying to innovate to please a niche audience. Youll buy it regardless.


As far as Corel Painter, the last thing it needs is more half-ass photoshop features and bloat. If youre a pro, you already have photoshop, and in no scenario that exists now or in the forseable future are you buying Painter as a photoshop substitute.



I'm a lurker most of the time but can't help to post on this one:-) Strangely, the situation works the opposite to me, I had upgraded to Photoshop7 and no more ( I had been using Photoshop since Photoshop1 back in the late 80s ). But for Painter, I happily move all the way to painter IX. I found myself using Photoshop less and less each day as I learned more and more how to use Painter and it's brushes and not to mention I need to rotate my canvas a lot in whatever angle I like. Wish some one can tell me how to rotate a 7000pixels (width) image with Photoshop like a piece of cake.

martinsdesign
01-13-2007, 10:51 PM
If photoshop 7 had adjustment layers and possibly smart objects for transform, I see your point. Painter 9 was a huge upgrade over 8, which seemed like a step backwards from 7.

Thus the Painter 6 trend back around 2001-2 I believe.

I am not trying to stir trouble, but I am enjoying this thread. The Painter quality vs. cost issue when compared to Adobe; and people telling me to get over it and just learn how to draw on a stationary canvas in photoshop has gone on for a long time.

My rant is focused squarely at Adobe AND Corel.

Corel needs to clean up its program or suck up it's pride and become a pshop plug in (I really don't think that is a viable option, the late 90's golden age of Pshop plug-ins is looong gone. I suspect it is impossible at the moment because it would be more powerful and invasive than any other plug in I have ever seen.)

OR...

Adobe needs to listen to the masses and innovate like/rip off/buy out Painter.

Thinking about this makes me wonder (I am quite the conspiracy theorist in case you couldn't guess)...maybe there is a back avenue line of communications with some heavy handed judicial threats. The analogy of Microsoft to Apple as Adobe is to Corel is a pretty fair one.

Except for the wizened few CG Ancestors (anyone over 40 in this field seems to enjoy playing the, "I used computers for art sooner than you" game), in general, Adobe has a beautiful, magical public image. If most teenagers think that you are the coolest thing in the world...

Why rock the boat?

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