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Continuumx
12-13-2006, 07:31 PM
I am pretty sure that Maxon is working on an overhaul of Advanced Render. Case in point, if Mocca 3, Mograph, and Hair, and R10 are any indication of their intent to not only improve but surpass any expectation or previous conceptions then Advanced Render in its hopefully next incarnation will be completely unexpected and downright awesome.

In short, I am just completely amazed at the new features of R10, the new interface, and of course the Mograph module. So far these have all been complete works of genius in my opinion!

Go Maxon!

LucentDreams
12-13-2006, 07:47 PM
good to hear some positive, and I like the angle your taking on it. Its a lot more work to update the renderer for sure but lets hope your right and thats the next big step.

lllab
12-13-2006, 07:47 PM
i can just second this!

i am just collecting older images for my webpage, and i still love a lot of work i have done with good old AR.

cinema10 is a dream machine for me, this is the right direction!

when maxon adds the "missing" module updates over time like dynamics, new NET, new AR, and we now or soon also have most of the best renderengines like maxwell, finalrender, fryrender, renderman, indigo, vray and last not least AR3 this is a killer package:-)

...so yes go ahaed MAXON! -v10 shows already the great potential!

cheers
Stefan

jkirk01
12-13-2006, 09:30 PM
I third this!:applause: I have only had R10 for about a week and already prefer the new interface over 9.6. No learning curve for me just "that's cool", "that makes sense", and "what does that new thing do?" I haven't quite gotten into CA yet, mainly due to the FUD of the older Mocca. Now that Mocca is all nice, new and shiney; I'm going to break out my copy of Monster Meshes (It's not called that of course, I just can't remeber the title right now:shrug: ) I got from Maxon along time ago and get to riggn' and animating. Can you tell I'm happy too? :thumbsup:

ThePriest
12-13-2006, 10:01 PM
Slowly switching to R10 myself, having just completed some very easy CA tuts, it'll finally be a side of Cineama that I can take advantage of.

Still a little afraid of the animation tools, but once in a while when I have free time, i'll try an R9 technique in R10, haven't quite mastered it yet.

All good things to those who wait and with VRay around the corner, things are looking up.

I think Maxons next step would be to take a look around at other apps, Modo has some really useful tools, macro's, natural flowing bridge tool *drools*, sculpting and zbrush type tools would really be a great benefit, Maya's paint effects while exportable would fit in nicely with Cinema's tools.

Anything and everything as to prevent having to do a lot of importing and exporting
and a lot of extra expense.

s66
12-13-2006, 11:11 PM
The best thing about C4D is that Maxon owns/maintains most of their code so that there is a consistency in the operation of the tools. It is a tribute to how robust their core architecture is that they can add these incredible modules and still have them work together and have most parameters animatable. I think it is in a class by itself. If they could beef up the "scriptability" of their tools and if they get dynamics on par with the rest of the app and add NLA (which I am sure they are working on as we speak), no other app could touch them at ANY price point. Yes, I too am very excited about the future of this app!!! The R10 CA tools are a quantum leap in usablility, some aspects actually surpasses anything out there. No more excuses about "I can't do this because it lacks feature X".

-Sadato

Meteoro
12-13-2006, 11:29 PM
Case in point, if Mocca 3, Mograph, and Hair, and R10 are any indication of their intent to not only improve but surpass any expectation or previous conceptions then Advanced Render in its hopefully next incarnation will be completely unexpected and downright awesome.

Exactly my thoughts!

wuensch
12-14-2006, 06:53 AM
See it the same way--
especially Hair still amazes me--- its an outstanding product.

I am curious what Maxon comes up with in Regard to NLA .

Olli

Mylenium
12-14-2006, 08:01 AM
I am pretty sure that Maxon is working on an overhaul of Advanced Render. Case in point, if Mocca 3, Mograph, and Hair, and R10 are any indication of their intent to not only improve but surpass any expectation or previous conceptions then Advanced Render in its hopefully next incarnation will be completely unexpected and downright awesome.

I don't give a shit if it's awesome or something, it just needs to be a lot faster and of much better quality. I don't think that an overall conceptual change is necessarily what makes the ball roll, but nodes would of course be the penultimate means of control. Anyway, almost inevitably logic dictates the the renderer is the next biggie on Maxon's list and one can only look forward to what they may come up with.

Mylenium

Neil V
12-14-2006, 10:19 AM
I quite like AR; but of course it needs a radical update if its to stay in touch with the big boys such as V-Ray (coming soon!), FinalRender and even Maxwell.

Speaking of which I've been toying with Maxwell and have to say the documentation stinks. Add this to the fact that there are hardly any Cinema 4D / Maxwell tutorials out there and you're pretty much left to fend for yourself. Very disappointing.

robotbob
12-14-2006, 10:22 AM
i agree hair contantly amazes me too. sketch and toon is something that also amazes me but i am clumsy with it. mograph too is awesome but i am also clumsy with that also.
AR pretty much serves me well except having to buy a better DOF solution.

maxon have made a bunch of shiney new stuff lately but it would be nice if they now consolidated their toolset and fixed a few bits and peices throughout instead of focusing on one module or making any new ones. For example finish the CA module including NLA and there lots of letdown bits in the other modules equaly important or fustrating to others.

p

STRAT
12-14-2006, 10:48 AM
even though im in love with the current AR, it's still obviously well behind the times as it stands.

with the advent of Vray around the corner, and all these other great plugins arriving, i am/was seriously considering the investment (in both time and cash) in the new vray connection.

but, i'm in no hurry, and costs of my kit is taken care of by my firm, so i'm going to hang on a tad to see what Maxon do about a new AR, and if it's up to expectations then i'll stick with it.

as i say, vray looks the biz, but i'll wait see how it works first(i pre-purchased final render and look what happened there) and in the mean time hopefully Maxon will keep themselves ahead of the game with a new AR.

if not (ie, gi animation, speed, stoch mode speed, render slow down etc etc etc) still dog the new AR then i'm emigrating to vray.

RickardAx
12-14-2006, 11:01 AM
Hi Strat
What do you meen with "and look what happened there".
Is FR not an alternative?
Rickard

Neil V
12-14-2006, 11:26 AM
I think Strat is a Mac user like me. So hence his disappointment at there still being no FinalRender after all this time. At least Maxon support both Mac and PC equally.

Hi Strat
What do you meen with "and look what happened there".
Is FR not an alternative?
Rickard

coldbrynx
12-14-2006, 11:29 AM
i agree with you guys. i think, cinema 4d has come a long way to be an excellent program and yet it still impresses me with lots of new features. although i must say, seeing some NURBS modelling tools will definately be a dream come true. as for the advanced render module, if only the renderer would be faster, people will not have to resort to finalRender for those long solutions. not that im saying that finalRender should be left out in the dark.

STRAT
12-14-2006, 12:04 PM
Hi Strat
What do you meen with "and look what happened there".
Is FR not an alternative?
Rickard

Hi

no, i'm a pc user. (valid point by Neil though).

i meant it's instability for net rendering. i dont know if the new service pack has fixed it, but if it has it's been a year in the waiting.

stevester1
12-14-2006, 01:46 PM
Hi

no, i'm a pc user. (valid point by Neil though).

i meant it's instability for net rendering. i dont know if the new service pack has fixed it, but if it has it's been a year in the waiting.

Even so, can FR really be compared to other renderers like Vray and Mray? I haven't really seen a "concrete" FR-C4D gallery, but in the cebas forums (which I explore every now and then) some examples are posted and the results aren't that impressive. I've seen much crispier and cleaner renders from other solutions that aren't C4D connected (yet). Anyways... I hope a new AR solution comes out soon.

AdamT
12-14-2006, 05:43 PM
I think fR is very close to VRay in quality, if not it's equal. The fact that there aren't so many impressive pics posted is probably down to the much smaller number of people using it compared to VRay and others.

TwinSnakes
12-14-2006, 08:27 PM
I think fR is very close to VRay in quality, if not it's equal. The fact that there aren't so many impressive pics posted is probably down to the much smaller number of people using it compared to VRay and others.

I'd have to agree with Adam. Fr GI engine is just sick. But, I'd love for AR to be able to do the things that Fr and Vray can do.

Updates AR's GI engine, add IES lights and I'm there.

destro80
12-15-2006, 02:14 AM
I wish Glow, Depth of Field, Vector Motion Blur etc were actually "Advanced".

I'm a motion graphics guy so these tools could be used everyday if they worked at a higher quality. I love Cinema 4D, but the "advanced" label on the rendering module doesn't seem to fit.

Stain777
12-15-2006, 04:42 PM
it just needs to be a lot faster and of much better quality.
Mylenium

I guess I'm a little surprised at this. AR doesn't have some of the bells and whistles that Vray does, but damn it's fast! I'm just finishing a GI render that I did in both Vray and AR. C4D was about 45min, Vray is still cooking and I'm at 15 hrs+. The Vray render looks very, very good but 15-20 times longer is not always an option for me. I'm able to produce, IMHO, pretty decent renders with AR and it is by far faster than any other engine I've seen.

Sometimes decent is good enough when you don't have the luxury of time.

ThePriest
12-15-2006, 05:33 PM
Vray is still cooking and I'm at 15 hrs+. The Vray render looks very, very good but 15-20 times longer is not always an option for me.

I've clocked many hours tweaking VRay settings to get the render times down, my interior scenes were taking unacceptable amounts of time. With further investigation, the details enhancement option, a little more understanding of the functionality of each individual option and small ways in which to avoid calculations where they're not needed, I've been able to shave about 75% off of most renders.

Stain777
12-15-2006, 06:32 PM
I've clocked many hours tweaking VRay settings to get the render times down, my interior scenes were taking unacceptable amounts of time. With further investigation, the details enhancement option, a little more understanding of the functionality of each individual option and small ways in which to avoid calculations where they're not needed, I've been able to shave about 75% off of most renders.

I don't want to highjack the thread, but.

I'm very happy to hear that I can significantly reduce the amount of time for a render in Vray, and I'd love to have that discussion with you (not here as this is the wrong place). But, I guess my point was that C4D renders very fast "out of the box" as it were. Rooms that would crush other programs just keep cranking out when I hit render in Cinema.

My original statement was a reply to the speed comment. I'm not saying that AR is better, just faster than other engines with a minimum of tweaking.

AdamT
12-15-2006, 07:49 PM
I can't speak to VRay, but fR-2 is significantly faster than AR when it comes to GI rendering.

Stain777
12-15-2006, 10:43 PM
I can't speak to VRay, but fR-2 is significantly faster than AR when it comes to GI rendering.

I haven't had a chance to try FR out. I know that you, and others, have mentioned some issues that you've had with it.

The original conversation was regarding updating the AR engine to be more in line with other rendering engines. If everyone had their wishes how would the new engine look? What aspects of other packages is AR missing and what parts would you pull from other apps?

destro80
12-16-2006, 02:20 AM
whoops...double posted.

destro80
12-16-2006, 02:21 AM
I haven't had a chance to try FR out. I know that you, and others, have mentioned some issues that you've had with it.

The original conversation was regarding updating the AR engine to be more in line with other rendering engines. If everyone had their wishes how would the new engine look? What aspects of other packages is AR missing and what parts would you pull from other apps?

The effects which are currently only available as post-effects need to also be available from inside the renderer. Most of AR is fantastic (I don't use GI, so I can't talk about that), but the post-effects are to me a constant limit on how high my output quality will be.

Neil V
12-16-2006, 07:33 AM
I think a useable GI solution over a network would be pretty useful.

howzit
12-17-2006, 05:49 AM
AR was one of the fastest engines out of any 3D package.

Maxon has since made so many new things (hair, cloth, mograph, 3 upgrades, rewritten lights and timeline, new CA tools and so much more)
i guess AR is next on the list.
Not too worried, i think Maxon will pull a rabbit out of the hat. But admittedly it is going to be a grand task, VRAY, MAXWELL, and FR2 sure made good products to compete against.

Simon Wicker
12-17-2006, 08:30 PM
personally i think that maxon will have a very hard job with AR3 as there are now several rendering techniques out there that need to be brought into AR. we have the newer versions of our GI engine (such as that found in FR2 and vray) and the spectral path tracing and metropolis methods of fry render and maxwell.

unfortunately the whole maxwell fiasco has brought the wrong kind of attention to the spectral path tracing methods although the advantages are very compelling when you need the ultimate in physical simulation.

there are also several notable limitations with our current cinema render engine that are also much more fundamental than the lack of good GI (such as woeful state of any of our motion blur methods and the post render effects not behaving).

for things we need added you can also include a physical based sky, better AA, an extended material system, new atmospheric fog models, etc, etc.

this is a LOT of work and you can all see how long it takes other companies that are dedicated to rendering to actually produce new and improved versions of their engines.

it would also be useful to improve the current methods of interacting with some of the features we do have - for instance cinema has one of the most powerful methods of creating lens flares you can ever imagine but the interface is needlessly cumbersome and comes from the dawn of time (i.e. it hasn't changed since at least version 5 and because it is so complex people rarely tap into the full potential of the flare editor). it is also slightly puzzling that we have about four different versions of inverse square fall-off that hang around for legacy reasons cluttering up our menus.

cheers, simon w.

Stain777
12-18-2006, 04:20 PM
this is a LOT of work and you can all see how long it takes other companies that are dedicated to rendering to actually produce new and improved versions of their engines.

cheers, simon w.

That being the case maybe it would be better if Maxon concentrated on their strengths and leave the render engine to companies that can devote all of their time to it. There are already solutions (FR, MaxwellRender) available, and more coming (Vray) to solve the situation. Other apps simply have a rendering engine that's "good enough" and leave the real work to MentalRay or other solutions so that they can use their assets toward other development.

This sucks for the end-user if they don't have the cash for another render engine though. Plus you have to continue to upgrade for two paths instead of one. No one can do everything well, so the question becomes; should they use their resources in other places?

govinda
12-19-2006, 01:30 AM
for instance cinema has one of the most powerful methods of creating lens flares you can ever imagine but the interface is needlessly cumbersome and comes from the dawn of time (i.e. it hasn't changed since at least version 5 and because it is so complex people rarely tap into the full potential of the flare editor).

This is true. I've sometimes ended up using C4D lens flares in preference to Knoll, Boris, Sapphire and other flares because, once you understand what's going on, you're handed a boatload options that turn out great results. But of course it took someone showing me what the hell was going on before I got the clunky system.

AdamT
12-19-2006, 03:29 AM
That being the case maybe it would be better if Maxon concentrated on their strengths and leave the render engine to companies that can devote all of their time to it. There are already solutions (FR, MaxwellRender) available, and more coming (Vray) to solve the situation. Other apps simply have a rendering engine that's "good enough" and leave the real work to MentalRay or other solutions so that they can use their assets toward other development.

This sucks for the end-user if they don't have the cash for another render engine though. Plus you have to continue to upgrade for two paths instead of one. No one can do everything well, so the question becomes; should they use their resources in other places?
My guess is that AR will continue to be developed. Despite falling behind in some areas, it's still a very fast hybrid raytracer, and it has the inherent advantage of being 100% compatible with things like Hair, S&T, and multi-pass compositor output. I concur with Simon, though--it's going to take a lot of work.

seco7
12-19-2006, 03:58 AM
Although I agree that Maxon has their hands full updating AR and keeping up with the jones (so to speak), I don't believe that they HAVE to incorporate all the trendy techniques into AR3. For example, some aren't practical for animation at all, so I would think those would pretty much be out of the question for Maxon. On the other hand, I cannot see them relying on 3rd parties to deliver the only rendering options. One, it just doesn't seem the way they have done things historically, and two, it's risky with update paths and compatablility etc.


That said, I am really looking forward to whatever they bring.

Steve

LucentDreams
12-19-2006, 04:15 AM
My guess is that AR will continue to be developed. Despite falling behind in some areas, it's still a very fast hybrid raytracer, and it has the inherent advantage of being 100% compatible with things like Hair, S&T, and multi-pass compositor output. I concur with Simon, though--it's going to take a lot of work.


well there is an irony in that its not 100% compatible yet as "AR" post effects don't work wiht Hair and Sketch and Toon etc. but for me that is the kinds of thing sI think are big priority to update along with the Fancy features.

AdamT
12-19-2006, 04:35 AM
Good point, Kai, re: the post effects.

Wow, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed yet!

sketchbook
12-19-2006, 05:11 AM
I haven't had a chance to try FR out. I know that you, and others, have mentioned some issues that you've had with it.

The original conversation was regarding updating the AR engine to be more in line with other rendering engines. If everyone had their wishes how would the new engine look? What aspects of other packages is AR missing and what parts would you pull from other apps?

i'd be happy if i had:

1. distributed render for stills.
2. a way to render larger scenes without getting out of memory errors.
3. GI that doesn't flicker when doing GI animation.
4. good DOF

i think there's definitely a place for AR3 and i am hoping for the best.

unseenthings
12-20-2006, 02:45 AM
i'd be happy if i had:

1. distributed render for stills.
2. a way to render larger scenes without getting out of memory errors.
3. GI that doesn't flicker when doing GI animation.
4. good DOF

i think there's definitely a place for AR3 and i am hoping for the best.
Man, if that doesn't sum it up, I don't know what does. :) Quoted for complete and total agreement.

AdamT
12-20-2006, 04:10 AM
Man, if that doesn't sum it up, I don't know what does. :) Quoted for complete and total agreement.
Gotta add improved motion blur!

georgedrakakis
12-20-2006, 08:47 AM
yesterday i posted to Maxon's support, about AR, suggesting that they should implement ''light calculation'' algorhythms from lighting calculation apps from lighting companies.
these kind of software are provided to architects and light designers and they are extremely fast.
i don't know much about coding, but if this is possible, then you end up with a render engine that is fast, accurate, and 100% compatible with c4d shaders.
cheers,
george

flingster
12-20-2006, 03:40 PM
personally i still think AR has legs...its in a far better position than most other apps native rendering solutions...i just think it takes focussed long term investment maxon have to push the boat out on this one...it has to out do any users expectations it can't just be a feature list of half implemented functions which ultimately don't fulfil users requirements... the so called bells and whistles need to really shine and this will take alot of time probably at least two development cylces which would be risky leaving it that long for maxon...however long term is the only way to go imo. i hope maxon continue to invest development resources on AR because it is very good at the moment but it really could be superb with some tender loving care. my advice would be take the time, spend the money long term and you'll see my upgrade fee....don't and you won't ultimately.
:shrug:

Simon Wicker
12-20-2006, 04:42 PM
at some point maxon have to reboot the renderer so that they can implement new features in a clean way and i wonder whether people be willing to wait for maxon to clean up the render code?

from what i can gather most users wish to have timely upgrades (i.e. get new features) than wait for maxon to essentially rewrite something that already exists to support future efforts.

with all the effects people want to do we have more rays whizzing around our scene than ever before, calculating gi, making glossy reflections, sampling textures, area shadows, anti-aliasing, ambient occlusioning to name a few.

maxon need to make sure that all their rays are doing the maximum amount of work without any wastage, gathering as much information about the scene as possible.

with the arrival of very modern render engines like vray maxon are going to have to be very clever about how they update AR so they can match them for features and speed without just building a huge unwieldy tower of code.

cheers, simon w.

flingster
12-26-2006, 09:05 PM
we really are at that point really...carry on regardless as the song says...or start afresh i guess...both have their benefits really but only one is a longer term decision. its a real problemo for maxon...keep bolting on or clean one step back for two forwards so to speak.
personally its about committment really are maxon committed to the renderer or not. time will tell...will be interesting to see what happens

destro80
12-26-2006, 09:20 PM
There is alot of armchair CEO work going on in the thread....I might as well join in.
I would vote for Maxon fixing up the features we have rather than adding the lastest rendering features from other rendering packages.

I think marketing is the problem here. How can you sell an upgrade that says "look we have fixed things up"?

flingster
12-26-2006, 11:27 PM
I think marketing is the problem here. How can you sell an upgrade that says "look we have fixed things up"?

you can't really...but then you can't market something where you haven't either. its an interesting point though about perception and how AR is percieved to users and non users or at least users of other products. i'm not really sure there is a perfect solution whichever way it goes people are likely to be unhappy short term...to this its a bit of an analogy to actually renderers there isn't a perfect solution because its all about look and what the artist wants. i've no doubting just users needs on this forum are very varied everyone agrees it can be improved the question really then is how and how far we go...do we play it safe short term and bolt some stuff on and delay the inevitable so long that we eventually leave it to long resulting in loss of business...or do we take a hit now with business by loosing some sales short term which we are already loosing to other renderers and possibly gain some back later...thats a really tough call.
personally i hope they take a really hardline with it to say this we will have in 12month and this in 18 month and this in 24months albeit not publically and deliver something really impressive ground up over a longer development cycle...but its a tough tough call for them imo i'm hoping they have faith in themselves that they are more than capable of doing something incredible but they have to losen up a little..whether its an organisational culture thats made them hesitate so far is hard to say...i certainly believe they have strengths in depth at the moment to really outshine industry equivalents whether they have the belief in taking on the risk is another story. of course i may be way way off anyway given we haven't a clue how maxon is approaching its current or future markets.
i'm just looking forwards to the armchair ceo's out there and the experts to show us...hehh ehheheh. look at the end of the day maxon make a great product ar is a part of the portfolio at the moment how much they see it growth potential to attract new business or retain and build existing business is how seriously they will take ar. time as always will tell.

Tysus
12-27-2006, 01:23 PM
i'd be happy if i had:

1. distributed render for stills.
2. a way to render larger scenes without getting out of memory errors.
3. GI that doesn't flicker when doing GI animation.
4. good DOF

i think there's definitely a place for AR3 and i am hoping for the best.

Here, Here!

That would make me happy as a pig in a pile of slop :)

TwinSnakes
12-27-2006, 09:13 PM
Srek or Per

Can you give any kind of indication of what Maxon is planning about AR?

stevester1
12-27-2006, 09:22 PM
Srek or Per

Can you give any kind of indication of what Maxon is planning about AR?

They probably signed some sort of NDA.

ThirdEye
12-27-2006, 09:33 PM
Srek or Per

Can you give any kind of indication of what Maxon is planning about AR?

Maxon plans to keep developing AR, any other info is basically top secret for people not under NDA.

Erik Heyninck
12-27-2006, 10:10 PM
Maxon plans to keep developing AR, any other info is basically top secret for people not under NDA.

That is sufficient info. When you see what they achieved with Clothilde, Hair and Mograph, you already know what will come.

osxman
12-28-2006, 09:33 PM
Maxon plans to keep developing AR...
Since no one seems to question this statement I'm wondering if I missed something :blush:.
Where does this info come from?

ThirdEye
12-28-2006, 10:05 PM
Since no one seems to question this statement I'm wondering if I missed something :blush:.
Where does this info come from?

It's not an official info, just a 2+2=4

JoelOtron
12-28-2006, 10:12 PM
I believe thirdeye is a betatester, so I suppose he would know what maxons plans are.

But beyond that, based on how the package has developed in specific areas as a direct result of listening to users requests and staying competitive in the 3d market, its an unquestioned assumption that Maxon will focus on improving AR eventually. They seem to focus on a particular area with each release; modelling tools, NGons, SPD, and cloth in 9, AO in 9.5, Hair to fill the void left by Shave, Mograph to help fill the void left by Jenna and CPT, Character ANimation improvements, OGL/editor enhancements, and Bodypaint improvements in 10.

AR, and to a lesser extent, Dynamics, would be my best bet for the focus of the next wave of overhauls. And nows the time to do it.

(edit--see 3rdeyes post for a more eloquent follow up ;)

ThirdEye
12-28-2006, 10:19 PM
I believe thirdeye is a betatester, so I suppose he would know what maxons plans are.

I wish i did, seriously only Maxon does, i really don't know what they want to add to C4D. All i know is, considering what they've done so far, it'll be something cool.

osxman
12-28-2006, 10:32 PM
Well, I hope that you are both right, ThirdEye and JoelD, but I wouldn't be too surprised if the current AR got assimilated into the C4D base version (like BodyPaint was in R10) to form a basic rendering option.

My fear is that Maxon are only waiting for "Vray for Cinema" and the Mac version of FR2 to be available as the "advanced rendering options".

For once, I really hope that I'm wrong though... :)

Srek
12-29-2006, 06:35 AM
I believe thirdeye is a betatester, so I suppose he would know what maxons plans are.
If Alberto were to use information that comes under NDA to post it on a public forum, he would be removed from the Betateam immediately, just like any other person under Maxon NDA would.
If a Maxon betatester posts something related to future development or similar here, you can be sure it's his or hers personal opinion and not a fact from the Maxon development plan.
Besides, betateser usualy only have information on short term development goals.

Cheers
Björn

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