CGTalk - Tell me why I should get XSI,Is it really all that.

Vladvrz

02-15-2003, 10:59 AM

Thanks I will. But in the mean time can anyone tell me please how hair in XSI compares to Shag hair in Max?
Also is there anything that compares to Paint FX in Maya?
Another thing,I understand XSI 2 works with Windows NT,but does XSI 3 work with Windows NT? One of my machines is XP but the other is Windows NT.
And what's Phoenix tools?A plugin Suite of some kind perhaps?
Well off to learn more and download.Thanks for your help or anymore you can give.:thumbsup: :beer:

E.T

02-15-2003, 03:03 PM

I think though that mental ray takes a lot of time getting used to, if youre coming from max (as i am) very different way of thinking. Havent really gotten it yet, but i will. I love the interface in xsi.
Its so well thought out, and usable. (allthough i gotta say: im still doing most work in max, but im learning)

Gelfling

02-15-2003, 03:37 PM

XSI hair is infinitly better and easier then Shag Hair from what I hear.

Maya paint fx is a Maya thing. If you want the best of every software you are not going to find it. No offense but you remind me of a person who jump's at every fluff program some company throw's in. Do not buy XSI for hair or some paint fx. That is crazy. You buy it because it is the best high end character animation system today. You buy it because it has some of the most solid modeling tool's period. Yes, XSI does have hair but that should be the last reason to buy it. My work is a FX house so we use Maya. Maya has better dynamic's and a stronger FX system. Simple as that. You buy into you're strength's and what you need.

Vladvrz

02-15-2003, 08:16 PM

Thanks.:beer:
Actually I am a person looking for the best in all Worlds.I want no limitations.But modeling is priority #1.So
So how is transferring from Max to XSI 3. I understand you can transfer 3DS quite well,is this true?
Also I heard that a new version of FBXis coming for XSI 3,how is it as of now?
I am thinking of working with Max 5 and XSI 3,a combo type set-up.Try and get the best of both packages.Does this sound possible?Or will just sticking to one of thm in the end sound like the way to go?

Thanks again for all your expert help.:beer:

02-15-2003, 08:56 PM

Hi Vladvrz, ,

First I agree with Gelfling, you will not find the best of all world under the same interface.
XSI has one of the best modeling features that I ever used, has a good dynamic system not better them the Maya one, but much more superior them the Max one, the hair system is awsome, has a top quality built in renderer and animations capabilities are awsome.
I have used Max in the past and all I have to say is that you have no reason to keep using Max after you start to use XSI, there is nothing that you do in Max that you can't do with XSI.

My 2 cents,
Cheers.
:beer:

Miyazaki

02-15-2003, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by diogo girondi
Hi Vladvrz, ,

First I agree with Gelfling, you will not find the best of all world under the same interface.

No, surely not, but XSI is maybe the most complete "out of the box" app of all 3d packages.

orion 77

02-15-2003, 10:07 PM

in the case pf xsi, you get what you pay for!!!

EdHarriss

02-16-2003, 01:45 AM

Those of you that have a 3dsMax background and are planning on using XSI will really be able to benefit from these two articles:

Discreet 3ds max to Softimage XSI transition tips
http://www.animagic.net/articles/xsi/maxxsi1.html

MAX to XSI Jumpstart
http://max2xsi.home.attbi.com

Enjoy.

Gelfling

02-16-2003, 02:17 AM

"I am thinking of working with Max 5 and XSI 3,a combo type set-up."

Not a bad idea. The most you should try to tackle IMHO is two. More then that and you will be learning tool's forever. It is really better to learn one but if you can handle more then go for it. A lot of job's out there for 3dsMax and if you have a intrest in games then it can only help.

Atyss

02-16-2003, 05:05 AM

Personally I don't see a big advantage of doing something like that. Both program, although doing 3D, work quite differently. Migrating data from one to the other works well mostly with simple stuff.
The only gain I see for this is if you wanted to benefit from the abundance of plug-ins in 3ds max. I my case I would do that only to use simulation features and alternate renderers, but since it quickly becomes tricky to transfer scenes from on to the other, I guess I should spend more time fine-tuning my skills in one of them rather than splitting my workflow between two not so homogenous.

Just my 2 cents
Salutations - Cheers
Bernard Lebel

Gelfling

02-16-2003, 10:33 AM

Well if he wanted to have a shot at the gaming part of the industry then Max is the way to go. I read a report you can find on the web where Max was used something like 90% to 92% as the primary app in gaming houses. I call that domination. While yes you can get hired using about any app they will of course prefer and even pick someone of equal talent over you that is native to Max.

I also think learning one app at first is the biggest priority even if you are learning truespace. You have to learn the basic's of 3d before you should worry about this app or that. Having said that it is not unusual to see someone who has used a application to the fullest to train with something else. It can never hurt and can only help.

I do agree though that in the begining it is 100% better to learn a package and STICK with it.

Just for the record I will not even use wings 3d though everyone and their mother seem's to be on this board. . I see no point and I think people tend to grab easier thing's to avoid learning a more robust application. It is easy to blame a application and use it as a excuse. I trained in SoftImage|3d and went back and learned Maya. It only helped me. I am about to invest in XSI though and get back on the Softimage bandwagon. I miss it

Atyss

02-16-2003, 05:25 PM

You missed my point!

I was talking about the fact that moving data from one application to the other is troublesome in most cases, defeating the purpose of having several packages to do different tasks.

Of course if you want to go in a certain industry it's better to start with the dominant package.

I should point out that XSI offers a bunch of nice tools for gaming: OpenGL, DirectX and Cg shaders, actions that can be created out of bones to be applied on nulls (wich most game engines only support), Rendermaps (baking lighting onto textures), vertex painting/maps, pivot/walk/fly/drive camera tools.

Salutations - Cheers
Bernard Lebel

Gelfling

02-16-2003, 10:19 PM

Of course it does Atyss but if it is not getting used in houses for games that will not matter

I think I missed the point indeed. After re-reading I see he does want to transfer a lot. I have to agree... more trouble then it is worth. If he just wanted to learn both then that is something else entirely.

Wildfire

02-17-2003, 03:21 PM

Bernard, do you know of any good tutorials on baking lighting into textures?

Just of the subject a little. sorry.

But just to add my 2 pence. XSI, I love it!! Can I get a job in it? No. Max, its ok. Are there jobs out there? Oh Yes! So really I'm having to learn Max, just for practicalies sake.

orion 77

02-17-2003, 09:31 PM

i dunno wildfire. in the long run i would reccomend u learn maya rather than max. with the price drop it will double in usage.
of course learn xsi incase you get into the big time :)

xerozz

02-18-2003, 01:23 AM

http://www.idesigns.dx-games.com/hair.JPG

thats the hair[took a screen while i was installing it, i saw this thread right when i opened up the install file so your lucky :P so theres the hair[ low quality cuz i saved it in paint]:airguitar

Atyss

02-18-2003, 01:06 PM

@@@@
Bernard, do you know of any good tutorials on baking lighting into textures?
@@@@

Check the manuals for Rendermaps. Pretty easy to use.

@@@@
But just to add my 2 pence. XSI, I love it!! Can I get a job in it? No. Max, its ok. Are there jobs out there? Oh Yes! So really I'm having to learn Max, just for practicalies sake.
@@@@

The more you know the better. I won't elaborate on software sales speculations, but yes, there are jobs out there for XSI users. Of course, certainly not as much as with Maya and Max (this is why it's better to know more, this way you don't close doors).

Salutations - Cheers
Bernard Lebel

qchan

02-18-2003, 01:06 PM

The SubDs in XSi are marvelous and very fast. Forget MAX!

Mental Ray is another thing. It's good, it's perfect integrated and it has an API. Of course you have to use C/C++ to use it and it is not so easy than renderman but maybe that doesen't matter for you. On the other hand these renderers like Brazil can produce astonishing images without too much twaeking, but you're limiteted with the available shaders.

qchan

02-18-2003, 09:52 PM

Just check this
http://www.softimage.com/home/press/pressreleases/030218_ilm_xsi.htm

http://www.softimage.com/Community/ILM

See the results in the cinema, see ya!

ThirdEye

02-18-2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by qchan
The SubDs in XSi are marvelous and very fast. Forget MAX!

Mental Ray is another thing. It's good, it's perfect integrated and it has an API. Of course you have to use C/C++ to use it and it is not so easy than renderman but maybe that doesen't matter for you. On the other hand these renderers like Brazil can produce astonishing images without too much twaeking, but you're limiteted with the available shaders.

qchan

Can you (or anybody else) make a comparison between polys in Max5 and XSI3? Thank you.

Gelfling

02-19-2003, 03:23 AM

Sure

Polygon modeling in max with the right tool's (meshtools) can be fantastic. You can achieve very high end character model's. You can create cartoon style model's very easily. It is pretty simple to polygon model. Spline implentation in V.5 is top notch.

The problem with Max is the speed of the viewport. Even with a very beefy system it can get VERY slow when the model is smoothed. Throw a couple mid poly character's in and animation can become hell. Of course you can hide and use trick's but most do not want to learn or bother. Max tend's to crash on big scenes and that can get frustrating quickly.

I actually respect Max. It is very strong and takes criticism from people who don't know any better. People who started out using a cracked copy and moved on before learning the tool's. The fact is Max is a very strong package that can produce amazing quality.

Sad but with the horrible viewport speed it makes it a real pain when you produce something more then say a cartoon alien.

----

XSI has the easiest modeling I have come across. Want to add a vert/edge/polygon? No problem.. just right click and pick add edge. Then click on a edge and click on the other edge you want to sub divide. There you go. You can place a edge or vert anywhere and XSI will create it. The sub division that XSI uses is very clean. You can do a whole model with just the right click. A bunch of other tool's I have not got into yet. You can edit properities for about everything. Of course full n-gon support like Max and about every way of handling geometry.

It is FAST. A full model in XSI sub divided has almost no slowing down in the viewport. It really is amazing. In Max it is the oppisite.

I work with Maya all day at work. I have nothing but love and respect for it. I traded in my personal seat of Maya for a seat of XSI for home use. XSI to me is about the closest think you can get to a 3d sketch pad.

I have heard some people say learning the render tree is hard. I have only been studying it one day and I find it easy. It is very logical and the node structure work's exactly how you would think it should.

SheepFactory

02-19-2003, 03:33 AM

the sub-d speed and interaction in xsi 3 is hands down the best i have ever seen. the renderer is a joy to use too.

My only gripe with xsi is in the rigging department. I dont get how it works it looks overly complicated coming from maya. But thats probably my lack of experience.

Ali

02-19-2003, 03:36 AM

Man I like to see people being honest about application, I have used Max in a past not to far, and I like him a lot, but he has some problemem when your models get bigger, I totaly agree with you.

XSI is very intuitive application, easy and fun to learn, of course that learn it will take some time because you have huge amounts of tools, but everything in the interface is extremily well placed, the tools are at you hand all the time, the modeling features are awsome, I keep saying that because they really are.
Viewports for real are the best I ever seen, if but only "if" things start to get slow, you can turn off the refresh in all the other viewports, just awsome.

Take a pic in the XSI 3 Experience Version.

Cheers! :thumbsup:

See Ya!

ThirdEye

02-19-2003, 12:55 PM

Thank you all, you made it clearer :wavey:

DDrake

02-21-2003, 12:52 AM

I have been working with 3dsmax for several years (since the msdos versions). I really love it for fast modelling and for the great community it has on internet. Tons of tutorials, plugins, etc...
but a couple of days ago I tried XSI and don´t know what happens that i cannot stop using it :D I´m really impressed by the power of this package, the fast modelling tools, the EASY interface,... and it all without any loose of power... i´m very excited by how fast i´m learning and knowing that this is a really high end package.
Also, i´m really impressed by things like net view, synoptic view, raycast selection, sticky keys, projects.... arf, i really love those kind of things :D

I hope in several months to use it for everything instead of max :D
(right now i use max for things i do not know how to do in xsi :D)

AmbientLight

02-21-2003, 01:57 AM

Sheep Factory,

I'm learning how to rig in XSI and I can say I LOVE IT! Especially constraints. Unlimited possibilities :) After rigging in LW it's like being in heaven.

Another thing that I really like is that you can script in JavaScript or VBscript. I used to do a lot scripting in JS before so I was very happy to find out I don't have to learn one more weird scripting language.

trence5

02-21-2003, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by Gelfling
Well if he wanted to have a shot at the gaming part of the industry then Max is the way to go. I read a report you can find on the web where Max was used something like 90% to 92% as the primary app in gaming houses. I call that domination. While yes you can get hired using about any app they will of course prefer and even pick someone of equal talent over you that is native to Max.

U gotta point. Wildfire stated in another threat that he got turned for 3 jobs because he didn't know Max. Damn! It will just take a li'l time for XSI to catch on though.

Galo

02-21-2003, 10:11 AM

well you guys made it clear im gonna try this suckah 2!!!

installing allready

But is this not a WYSIWYG package, only verywell thought off like dreamweaver at macromedia ?

anyway, the interface still looks like that.... like a package for people who find it hard to do it theirselves ?

forgive me if i offended people here, this is just my opinnion..:applause:

Gelfling

02-21-2003, 03:05 PM

do you like it hard?

There is so much stuff in XSI that I doubt you can learn the meat of it any quicker then Maya. Actually in a lot of way's XSI goes much deeper. Try the render tree and tell me how easy it is :beer:

Galo

02-24-2003, 09:19 AM

Okay,

you're right, i'm wrong,
you're handsome, i'm ugly,
you're smart, i'm stupid,
you're computer is fast, mine is slow,

hope i made it up now :thumbsup:

Hey i played with XSI this weekend and i must say, that's a hell of a package, but.......

the modeling sucks, i just cannot model correctly in XSI don't know why, maybe it's the camera angle, it looks like a 45 degree angle i'm having a hard time modeling in this package so i stick with maya for now.....although.....no i stick with maya....my maya.....:love:

Wildfire

02-24-2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Galo
Okay,

the modeling sucks, i just cannot model correctly in XSI don't know why, maybe it's the camera angle, it looks like a 45 degree angle i'm having a hard time modeling in this package so i stick with maya for now.....although.....no i stick with maya....my maya.....:love:

What!!! ?????

I have found that the modelling workflow in XSI to be probably the best around. Maybe try setting your camera to orthorgraphic in the camera properties part. Also Pan out (p) and zoom in (z).

Having tried to learn Maya, and max, I got to say that for me XSI has the best poly modelling tools around.

Gelfling

02-24-2003, 01:07 PM

"the modeling sucks"

.....

speechless

Galo

02-24-2003, 02:10 PM

yeah well not sucks but one way or another it does not work right for me but i think i'm doing something wrong but i'm tired of looking for what it is, yesterday i tried looking for an option to adjust my vp and the shading of the model, DO NOT GO OUT THERE ALL BY YOURESELF.... XSI IS VERY DANGEROUS, i searched for one hour and then i gave it up.......

thats why i said it sucked....

JDex

02-24-2003, 02:32 PM

I really reccomend checking out buzz's VTM for XSI, it will show you the painful little things that your missing... btw... zoom truly acts like a zoom lens (read: distorts heavily) use dolly to move in and out in your viewport ("s"key; lmb=track, mmb=dolly, rmb=orbit)

ggg

02-24-2003, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by Galo
yeah well not sucks but one way or another it does not work right for me but i think i'm doing something wrong but i'm tired of looking for what it is, yesterday i tried looking for an option to adjust my vp and the shading of the model, DO NOT GO OUT THERE ALL BY YOURESELF.... XSI IS VERY DANGEROUS, i searched for one hour and then i gave it up.......

thats why i said it sucked....
:surprised

wmendez

02-24-2003, 07:02 PM

Rigging has to be the easiest thing to setup in XSI especially coming from LW, Im not sure how MAX and Maya compare but you have your character then use the Character < biped guide scale the bones to match your characters limbs then choose Character < rig from biped guide. Select your character then envelope <set envelope and select the root of the rig, RMB and your charcter is ready.

the basic weights are automatically assigned from the bones which you can always modify further.

Ed Lee

03-04-2003, 07:29 AM

As a Maya user, and after reading through this thread I almost want to go and buy XSI. Geez.....

Ed--

ThE_JacO

03-04-2003, 07:49 AM

obviously enough i'd strongly advice in favor of buying it :D
but if you just want to get an idea of how much is truth and how much is hype (there's more of the former :) ) download the exp version from softimage.com and work it out on ur own.

topmegacool

03-07-2003, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by Gelfling
XSI hair is infinitly better and easier then Shag Hair from what I hear.

I must say wrong... really wrong

Actually XSi doesn't allow you to use splines, their way to make and build hair placement is absolutelly crazy (not useable).
A lot of control are missing and really far to be near to shag.

Rendering time is also way longer than with Shag.
But the problem about rendering hair in XSI is also shadows.
Since the latetes version, shag has a nice "hair shadows" option in the spot shadows that xsi doesn't has and then you have to deal with too much sharp raytrace light or too much bad shadowsmap.. or too much long to render areshadow.

We tryed to make hair with xsi according some design we had, but the task was impossible.

Some xsi fan will probably jump on me so to be convinced just try to align xsi hair guide over a specific shape design.... ok once you done it (you're very patient :-) then do it for the other 300 hairs.... ok good now subdivide your mesh and check what happen :-)

piajartist

03-07-2003, 04:48 AM

How Dare YOU!!

hahaha

wmendez

03-07-2003, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by topmegacool

Actually XSi doesn't allow you to use splines, their way to make and build hair placement is absolutelly crazy (not useable).
A lot of control are missing and really far to be near to shag.

I have not gotten into the hair module as much but you can definatley create hair from curves.

http://members.rogers.com/lmendez/Spline_hair.jpg

dmonk

03-07-2003, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by topmegacool
I must say wrong... really wrong

Actually XSi doesn't allow you to use splines, their way to make and build hair placement is absolutelly crazy (not useable).
A lot of control are missing and really far to be near to shag.

How are you going about it because you definitely can do it that way. I think you may have gotten fustrated and gave up on it. It is definitely not that difficult.

As far as rendering hair goes yes it can be time consuming but there are ways of optimising hair that will speed up the process significantly.

Optimizing the Rendering of Hair: Volume and Geometry Shaders (http://enemy.mesmer.com/moebius/FMPro?-DB=article&-Format=free_tutorial_read.html&-Op=eq&ProductName=XSI%20Hair%20Rendering&-SortField=LearningOrder&-SortOrder=ascend&-Max=1&-Skip=0&-Find)

topmegacool

03-07-2003, 06:29 PM

No this isn't the same thing.

What you are talking here is to make hair along nurbs curves and really different. You can't control the emission of hair from a surface and with spline.

Just show me some hair work with this method...
Are you going to make a curve at heach vertice place of the head ? Now also show me some convincing rendered hair with nice light and shadows inside.

I love xsi and I use it... but not for hair
Now this is just my point of view

ThE_JacO

03-07-2003, 10:10 PM

sure you can.
did you ever take the time to try and use lattice or deformers on hair (try it in any non-integrated hair module) or shape anim for what it matters, or SCOPs, or whatever...

XSI is NOT about having a thousand panels, one for each use.
XSI is about having each tool working with everything.

this means you can envelope particles, use cages on hair, deform whatever you want and paint shapes influences...

btw want a decent work with XSI hair ? check the Mill's work on the levi's stampede commercial, also goes to testify about scalarity (you know that is an issue as well to who does production, it's not only about getting one (1) single pretty head with flowing hair..)

topmegacool

03-07-2003, 10:34 PM

this is what I talk about.
Fur isn't really a problem, especially with quick and short shots (like in the levi's advertising) with motion blur...

Backlight, hair sculpting (see shag or shave&haircuts,or maya)

I'm talking about designed shape of hair not just short fur.
Of corse you can deform hair, I know that... but try to design hair this way.... me I tryed already and I tryed other way. The best is to have good control over hair generation from surface. actually xsi doesn't allow you that.