Your opinion on this business practice?

[ericsmith]

This is actually pretty surprising. Typically, Producing agencies don't want you going any where near their clients for two reasons.

1. The standard practice for an agency is to mark up the costs of services they hire out. If the client pays you directly, the agency doesn't get a cut.

2. This is kind of related to number 1. Agencies don't want an artist to end up cutting out the middle man and making the end client their client instead of the agency.

Personally, unless the end client is a pain to work with, I would take this situation as a blessing in disguise. If you can forge a good relationship with a large national company, you have a chance of surviving any fallout between the company and the agency. Considering what you've said, this fallout sounds likely.

Eric

[imgumbydammit]

It sounds like You are a sub contractor to the large corporation..therefore they are the ones legally bound to pay you.Unless of course they refuse to pay....then you may lien against the primary owner of the property (the commercial) as a last recourse.

Never do work for someone who refuses to legally bind themselves to payment.

IGD

[joshpurple]

This is actually pretty surprising. Typically, Producing agencies don't want you going any where near their clients for two reasons.

1. The standard practice for an agency is to mark up the costs of services they hire out. If the client pays you directly, the agency doesn't get a cut.

2. This is kind of related to number 1. Agencies don't want an artist to end up cutting out the middle man and making the end client their client instead of the agency.

Personally, unless the end client is a pain to work with, I would take this situation as a blessing in disguise. If you can forge a good relationship with a large national company, you have a chance of surviving any fallout between the company and the agency. Considering what you've said, this fallout sounds likely.

Eric

Thank You Eric. I agree, and those are two great points. I have considered this. Here are some of the issues with going that route;

The Commercial Producer would see this as me 'stealing' their Client. I'm 90% certain things would get very ugly, and I don't know if I'm ready, or wanting such a fight.

I would need to be prepared to create the entire 30 second commercial. As a single person studio, I don't have the same resources as the corporation. I have focused on character animation, since that has logistically been well within my ability and means to do. I believe I would need to act as an Ad Agency for the Client, not just a character animator, and that would be a new venture for me.

The Client has already signed a contract with the Commercial Producer (the corporation), I'm not sure how easily they would be able, or willing, to get out of that contract.

For my work history, my very small reputation (with my reseller, my work with SIGGRAPH, other production studios & agency's, etc.), I admit, I would be very nervous about what repercussions that might create. I enjoy being a character animator, and I feel I should continue to focus on character animation. Setting up music, voice talent, contracts, taking the commercial to a broadcaster (maybe something I would tell the Client that they would have to do this? I could make the commercial for them, then they would take it from there), -would be a lot to try to handle.

In this case the 'big name' corporation is doing both (being the Ad Agency & running the commercial). The corporation has a monopoly in this area. The 'big name' corporation provides all the cable service (internet, cable, etc.) in this region. Even my email was switched over to this corporation's name when they took over this region.

As much as I would enjoy picking-up a close to six digit contract deal, that might be biting off more than I can chew.

[aeres]

I believe what you are doing is correct and it should be, for all the reasons ericsmith has already stated. From the client's point of view, they hired the agency so they they ONLY have to deal with the agency; In other words, any problem with the subcontractors would be the agency's problem, not the client's.

Either the producer stupidly forgot to include your fee (including their markup) in their quotation for the client, I can't think of a reason why they'd want you to deal directly with the client as it defies any business sense, even if the client is a pain in the backside.

anyways, the bottomline is, if the client cannot agree to the terms of payment in writing, don't do anything.

[siouxfire]

This is a practice that's common across all industries. The thing is that, if I understand correctly, the subcontractor to the corporation commissioned you, are your point of contact, and I'm assuming they're receiving the goods directly from you as well. It's strange considering your previous experience that they would allow this to happen again. If they were serious about you collecting the money directly from their client, they should at least provide you with a named contact.

Also, they're naming a price for your work which sounds a little strange if they inadvertently left it out of their quotation.

My problem with the situation is that this already happened once before. It doesn't score highly for professionalism in regard to the subcontractor to allow this to happen a second time. In fact, it makes it all sound extremely suspect.

Get and keep everything in writing, do no work (or atleast deliver) without your payment terms pinned down. Good luck.

[joshpurple]

It sounds like You are a sub contractor to the large corporation..therefore they are the ones legally bound to pay you.Unless of course they refuse to pay....then you may lien against the primary owner of the property (the commercial) as a last recourse.

Never do work for someone who refuses to legally bind themselves to payment.

IGD

Exactly! Thank you Imgumbydammit. I agree with you completely.

The argument they have used against this is; "I'm an Independent Contractor. Not a sub contractor."

Even though, their Client did not come to me. The Commercial Producer, and the corporation came to me, and asked me to do the work. I was also surprised that the Commercial Producer decided to label me as the business that he felt I fit into. From what I know, I decide if I'm a Sub Contractor or an Independent Contractor (How does he get to decide what kind of business I am?).

What you describe Imgumbydammit, is exactly what I have always gone by, and that is what I believe is standard business practice.

I have told them, many times now (and this is what has put a stop to all work/going forward with the project), I should be paid by them, not their Client, if I do the character animation for this television commercial.

They are insisting that I act as an Independent Contractor, -going to their Client & getting payment directly from their Client. The corporation claims this is how they have done business for the past ten years.

The corporation first has their Client make a large down payment, and then they make their Client pass a background credit check. I asked them, "Do you want me to go to your Client and ask them to do that same process again for me? Is your Client aware that is what you are advising me to do?" Their response, "That's up to you. You are an Independent Contractor."

This corporation does not want to assume any risk or loss for any additional costs, such as the cost of paying a character animator, voice talent, etc. if their Client fails to pay. The Commercial Producer, and corporation, have come to me, asked me to do the work, and want me to go to their Client to make and receive any payment arrangements.

I feel that is not standard business practice, and I don't want to see this business practice spread through our community. I feel that the local 3D artists work hard enough as is, and deserve a straight forward deal (I find it hard to believe that this is how they have done business for the last ten years).

My biggest hope is, to work as a sub contractor for the corporation, having them sign a standard (one page long) Contract for Services with me, getting paid directly by them, not their Client (I'm not uncomfortable being described as Talent. I have been a Union member of AFTRA/SAG for over ten years, <-- although that doesn't apply to this situation).

At this point, no contracts have been signed, and I will not start any production work until I have a signed contract.

[joshpurple]

I believe what you are doing is correct and it should be, for all the reasons ericsmith has already stated. From the client's point of view, they hired the agency so they they ONLY have to deal with the agency; In other words, any problem with the subcontractors would be the agency's problem, not the client's.

Either the producer stupidly forgot to include your fee (including their markup) in their quotation for the client, I can't think of a reason why they'd want you to deal directly with the client as it defies any business sense, even if the client is a pain in the backside.

anyways, the bottomline is, if the client cannot agree to the terms of payment in writing, don't do anything.

Thanks Aeres. I agree, and you pretty much hit the nail on the head. The Client hired the Ad Agency so they only have to deal with the agency, bingo. And this is exactly what the Client has said. And I agree with you again, it defies any business sense ( I think ).

When the Commercial Producer told me to go directly to their Client and set-up Independent Contracts with them, the Client got very upset. The Client was not expecting that. They thought they had signed a deal with the Ad Agency, and the cost of that deal = the Client getting their Ad Campaign. When the Client found out that the character animator would be an additional cost, the Client got upset.

The Commercial Producers then had a meeting with their Client, and came back to tell me, "I had jumped the gun. I should have gone through them, so they could have helped to control the meeting & explain it to their Client." I did not "jump the gun..." I did just what the Commercial Producer had told me to do.

The process the Commercial Producer described, "gone through them, so they could have 'helped' to control the meeting," I find very close to being very unethical. Especially since the Commercial Producer has told me that he considers me to be a completely Independent Contractor. The Commercial Producer indicated that they would appreciate being allowed to see and present my contract to their Client. I asked them then (for this project I have been dealing with a 'Team' from the corporation), may I please see all of their paperwork and contracts that they have with this Client of theirs. Of course, they said, "NO." I then asked, why do you get to 'help control' anything I do with a Client that I will be an Independent Contractor with? If possible, I would like to be first in approaching what would be my direct Client. The Commercial Producer said it's their Client, that's why they have approached them first. I let them know, that unless it's going to be a clear, fair, and completely open transaction, I don't believe they have the right to 'help control' anything I do as an Independent Contractor, and that as an Independent Contractor I have the right to approach and meet with the Client, alone, at any time I want, without notification being given to them. Again, I told the Commercial Producer, I should be paid by them, not their Client. Saying, "You came to me to do the character animation work. If you want me to be an Independent Contractor, that is 'helped with control' by you, then I would like to see the Contract that will work this understanding out.

[joshpurple]

This is a practice that's common across all industries. The thing is that, if I understand correctly, the subcontractor to the corporation commissioned you, are your point of contact, and I'm assuming they're receiving the goods directly from you as well. It's strange considering your previous experience that they would allow this to happen again. If they were serious about you collecting the money directly from their client, they should at least provide you with a named contact.

Also, they're naming a price for your work which sounds a little strange if they inadvertently left it out of their quotation.

My problem with the situation is that this already happened once before. It doesn't score highly for professionalism in regard to the subcontractor to allow this to happen a second time. In fact, it makes it all sound extremely suspect.

Get and keep everything in writing, do no work (or atleast deliver) without your payment terms pinned down. Good luck.

Indeed Siouxfire, and thank you for the reply. Yes, after going through this the first time, I sincerely thought this would not be a problem. The 'big name' corporation's, 'Advertising Account Executive,' did in fact name pricing estimates for me to the Client. She used the price of what I was paid for the last commercial I did for them. I told her, "that price has nothing to do with this project." And, if I am to be an Independent Contractor, completely separate from them, then I do NOT want her discussing or naming my costs & payments with the Client. I don't need any 'help controlling' my business.

And, yes, at this point I am very suspect of their business practice. Especially if they have been doing it this way for the last ten years. I'm even somewhat stunned that such a 'big name' corporation is handling business like this.

I deeply appreciate the help and advice I am getting here at CGSociety! Thank You!

[Kanga]

There is no standard business practice as I understand it. If you are freelancing and an agency asks you to go directly to the client no sweat. Make sure you get half in advance, watermark everything and de watermark the final work once you have received payment for the complete job. This way you circumnavigate contracts and legal fees and time effort and worry.

You might have a standard contract that states corrections above and beyond the original briefing are subject to cost increases and delay in deadlines. That would be a terms of service thingy.

I don't really see what the fuss is about. If you believe in your quality then a take it or leave it attitude is essential,... and also quite normal.

Take it easy man!

Good luck.
Chris

[ultramedia]

My experience has been that the bigger a clients business (and therefore ego) is, the more they think they have a right to screw you over. The "We're doing you such a big favour letting you work for us, we probably shouldn't even have to pay you" attitude.

Basically, if you want to swim with the sharks, you have to have a steel cage. For me that means writing up a rigid and detailed work breakdown schedule based on their wishlist (ideally extracted from them in the first meeting) which I actually use as a quote. Until they sign off on this (or some sub selection from it - very common), I don't do any other work for them. (Yes writing a detailed WBS is hard work, but it's a lot less work than being trapped in a badly negotiated contract).

Re payment, I do staged payments - i.e. part A of the WBS is this much, part B is... and so on. Basically, I don't care who pays me, but part B doesn't get done until part A is paid for.

[aeres]

There is no standard business practice as I understand it. If you are freelancing and an agency asks you to go directly to the client no sweat. Make sure you get half in advance, watermark everything and de watermark the final work once you have received payment for the complete job. This way you circumnavigate contracts and legal fees and time effort and worry.

You might have a standard contract that states corrections above and beyond the original briefing are subject to cost increases and delay in deadlines. That would be a terms of service thingy.

I don't really see what the fuss is about. If you believe in your quality then a take it or leave it attitude is essential,... and also quite normal.

Take it easy man!

Good luck.
Chris

Hey Chris :thumbsup: I haven't been freelancing for as long as you have, though the only times that I have encountered cases where I am asked to deal with the client directly with the presence of a middleman is when the middleman himself is an independent contractor (a freelancer like me), who can't afford to pay me if the client screws him over (which I think this is not the case). Is there any other reason that I'm not aware of, for the middleman to do so?:)

But I think the main issue here is the Producer trying going back on his word for the payment for the first project; And when the second one comes along he tries to do the same, while the client doesn't know a thing about this arrangement. Doesn't this sound a wee bit suspicious to you?

[Tarrbot]

While they may see a slight tax difference between "independent contractor" and "sub-contractor" they're generally handled in the same manner.

I contract to one house who then contracts to IBM who then contracts to a Fortune 500 automotive company in Detroit. Am I a sub-contractor or an independent contractor? IBM and the automotive company don't care about the details. They just want the bill from one location. So, it goes like this. I "bill" the contract house, who bills IBM, who then bills the automotive company.

The bottom line is that in "normal" business there's lines and rules of engagement between contractors (sub or otherwise) and clients. This is the contractor's lot in life. It would be hogwash for me to bill IBM or the automotive company directly since there's budget codes set up for this type of thing to begin with and it'd take 2 months to get the process of setting up a new budget complete and my check delivered to me.

The same goes with a lot of companies. For this idiotic agency to believe they could pull this crap over on you just baffles me. I've never heard of such a stunt.

Bottom line here is that you either need to 1) back way out of this situation or 2) go full bore on the agency and demand that this situation get rectified because it's stupid already.

Either way, be prepared for never working for that company again. If that happens, just move on to the next situation and be done with it. The company may come back to you again later with other people that are in place in the "decision making" department and offer you some more work under better terms.

Don't burn any bridges here, just demand that business be performed a certain way. You can always demand without coming across as an ass. Hint: Never use the word "demand". Use "expect" or "expectation". That's a much more friendlier word and allows the other party to try to meet the goal without being pushed around by you.

Ultimately, the end customer doesn't give one fig about whether you're an independent contractor or sub-contractor. They want the product they're asking for and they want it from one source. This gambit this moronic company is playing is nonsense.

[Kanga]

Hey Chris :thumbsup: I haven't been freelancing for as long as you have, though the only times that I have encountered cases where I am asked to deal with the client directly with the presence of a middleman is when the middleman himself is an independent contractor (a freelancer like me), who can't afford to pay me if the client screws him over (which I think this is not the case). Is there any other reason that I'm not aware of, for the middleman to do so?:)
Hi aeres!
Not really. I've been asked to handle client contact if the deadline is tight, or the job is too complex. The point I was making was that if you have money in your hand alot of the stress dissapears. Sure there are clients and agencies that will call you crazy but that is just because you are being inconvenient. Don't forget how hard you worked for your skill. Your contacts don't know how much work is involved, nor do they care, nor should they have to. It's up to them if they want to buy or not after all.
Basically, if you want to swim with the sharks, you have to have a steel cage. For me that means writing up a rigid and detailed work breakdown schedule based on their wishlist (ideally extracted from them in the first meeting) which I actually use as a quote. Until they sign off on this (or some sub selection from it - very common), I don't do any other work for them. (Yes writing a detailed WBS is hard work, but it's a lot less work than being trapped in a badly negotiated contract).

Re payment, I do staged payments - i.e. part A of the WBS is this much, part B is... and so on. Basically, I don't care who pays me, but part B doesn't get done until part A is paid for.
The above from ultramedia is probably the best advice you will ever get. Except I would go one further and get a payment for a phase in advance. This way you know the client is serious and you have nothing to loose.

Cheerio Chris

[joshpurple]

Thank You Chris, Tarrbot, ultramedia, ALL. I do admit, that was my first 'big' television commercial, so I do not claim to be a seasoned vet & I appreciate the (excellent!) feedback. I was very happy when they came back to me to do a second commercial. I had thought that after not backing down, and finally getting paid by them (a check from the corporation was sent to me in full), they would probably never ask me to do another job.

I did just get a chance to talk with Lane Raichert ( he was our guest speaker at the annual animation festival, put on by our local SIG Chapter. I believe he's an excellent guy, with an outstanding background; Artist, writer, director, producer, and Co-Founder of Raichert Media, Inc. (http://www.raichertmedia.com), Lane has worked on hundreds of TV episodes and games for 26 years.)

This really helped, and I believe he would agree with a lot that Chris said, -well, all of you actually :) . He did tell me to calm down, and not make a big fuss about it. The best way I can approach it is to stay professional and respectful. And the Independent Contractor / Sub Contractor aspect will make some tax difference, but that's not the main issue. As long as I get paid, by someone, is the main issue (and not to forget that anything I make is my property, they can't just use it once I've created it).

They may be a little disorganized, but that might be normal. And it might not be a bad idea to move away from this project completely, if payment arrangements are not pinned down (as you guys have wisely said). No need to get into it with them, telling them how they should do business. I agree, I can do this without burning bridges, good advice Tarrbot (still, I do feel they have been 'playing' my costs with their Clients, and I don't like how they want me to start work & then go to their Client to get paid...).

I (normally) work by asking for a down payment, and then I send weekly invoices for the work done (usually under a Contract for Services). Getting paid half down, before I start would be nice. But, the Commercial Producers are still creating the storyboard and finishing the Script, and they are not sure how long that will take (so without knowing how long I will be working on this project, it's hard for me to guess what half will be).

When I talk with their Client next, or with the Commercial Producers, I'll let them know I did mean for any misunderstandings & that I would look forward to doing the work. I will ask them if they could send me a deal memo. Not a contract, or anything complicated, just to get what they would like me to do in writing. Once I have that, I can calmly and respectfully respond back, either agreeing to it, or not. If there is no agreement on payment, then I will let them know, "Thank You very much for the offer and the interest. Unfortunately since there is no agreement or arrangement on payment, I can not begin work on this project. Please feel free to contact me once these arrangements have been made."

Does that sound reasonable? (wise?)

(can't help but to feel a little stressed, it would be the 'biggest' deal I have had to date. Year long Ad Campaign ).

p.s. And I can't help but to feel that the Commercial Producers/corporation, that came to me to do the work, should be the ones paying me for the work. But, I'll keep that to myself :) .

[norvman]

I've heard this argument many times before....

mostly from sales smoozers at ad agencys testing to see if I know what the hell I'm doing...

Lets get some Terminology strait here first guys...

Allllll of us are Indepenant contractors... that is to say unless your workin' for the man... and pulling in a sallery for it then we are all Independant Contractors... the Clients are Independant Contractors... the Ad Agency is an Independant contractor... UPS and Fed EX are Independant Contractors....

IF you have a business that pays taxes sparately for your self and your employees then your business constitutes a Independant Contractor....

Got it? ..... (hey it's not me that says this but US and I am sure British and most places Business Law says this....)

Now lets talk about SubContractors... and General Contractors....

If your the company that is dealing directly with the Client... then you are the General Contractor.... (this is normally what an Agency is trying to do...)
If your not dealing directly with the customer.... then you and/or your company are a Subcontractor....

Subcontractor and Independant Contractor have absolutely nothing to do with one another in any Business conversation about money....

unless of coarse the guy bring it up is out to screw you out of your time or money...

Don't fall for it...




That said... Subcontracting is great.... but you will not always be placed in situations where you can Subcontract... sometimes the Client wants a certain amount of hands on by being able to interact directly with a preticular people on the project and may request that you contract directly with them....

but in your example it does not sound like that is what they wanted...

What your are describing sounds more like the time I screwed in the same way and 10 years later I found out that they Sales guy... (my contact....) walked off scott free with my money that I never recieved because I fell for the "but your not a subcontractor your an independant contractor" business...

If the Ad Agency is dealing between you and the Client ... they by all Legal means are General Contracting for you and they owe you monies directly for any work you do for them... not the Client...

Believe me I had to learn this the hard way...

hope this helps to clarify anythings guys.... if not take a visit to a Lawyer... he will tell you all this for free and it will be the advise of a Lawyer...

Brows these sites for more insite...
http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/contract/index.html
http://www.worldlawdirect.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=13
http://www.seacoastnh.com/business/how.html

B+
NorvMan

[joshpurple]

I did hear back from one of the Commercial Producers. Much along the lines of what Tarrbot said.

Ultimately, the end customer doesn't give one fig about whether you're an independent contractor or sub-contractor. They want the product they're asking for and they want it from one source.

The Commercial Producer told me their Client said, "We made a deal with you (the corporation) to produce and run our ad campaign. We don't make commercials, we don't want to deal with hiring and paying voice talent, animal handlers, character animators, that's your job. That's the deal we agreed to with you, the ad agency."

I thanked her for the news, and told her the project sounds like it would be a great commercial & appreciate the opportunity. Letting her know I still look forward to doing the animated character. I made no comment about what their Client told her.

She said she was getting nervous about the deadline, and was wondering when I would get started. I replied, "As soon as I get a down payment, I'll get started right away." And I asked her if she would please send me a deal memo, or just a quick email on the project description. She had never heard of a deal memo, but she said she'd be happy to send me the email. I thanked her, and told her I look forward to hearing back from them.

(Now, I've been getting nervous and waiting to hear back... )

[Tarrbot]

I wouldn't be too nervous. It's standard from where I sit.

I'm a project manager working by contract.

What the client said to the ad agency is pretty much what is defined as a PMP standard in contracting. It may be different in some industries and parts of the world/country but generally that's the normal situation.

It sounds like the client told the agency their place and it's the place you always knew it was.

I hate using car analogies--especially since I work in Detroit--but it's like a customer going up to Ford and asking for a car and then Ford telling them that they have to get the upholstery done by someone else and they have to pay someone else for that.

Sure, that's the way cars were made 90 years ago but Ford has long since standardized its vehicles, as has everyone else.

I've backed you every part of the way in the manner you've handled yourself so far. You play a professional hand, it seems. You thanked her for the info, then brought your expecations of the project up and did not comment on the issue. She brought progress up which you then countered with the holdup and now the ball is in her court.

That's how professionals work. It's the very essence of customer interaction.

Bottom line: She will use you or she won't. I'm willing to bet she uses you simply for the professionalism that you showed her.

Here's hoping it goes well. Keep us informed. :thumbsup:

[AJE]

The person who asked you to do the work is the person who should be paying you. If they do not have the authority to pay you, they do not have the authority to hire you.


The company I work for has been there before, and we've had to sue to get paid... it won't happen to us again I guarantee that... it's too much of a pain in the arse to go after the money, and it creates a lot of ill-will with clients both current and potential ones who hear about a lawsuit without context or specifics.

Good luck dude.

[joshpurple]

Thanks Tarrbot and AJE. I agree, and that's a good point AJE. When they did pay me for the first commercial, the corporation's local office was not able to pay me, instead they had to have the payment sent to me from their national headquarters (I wondered why their local office was not able to pay).

From her description, she seemed to be trying to get me to go back to her Client, and convince her Client that I would be worth it for them to pay and deal with me for the character animation work. I made no comment on that, and I hope I didn't blow it, but I'm not going to go back to her Client and try to convince her Client that I'm worth it for them to pay me. Their Client has already told me once, they are paying the Ad Agency.

I just learned of a "double-payment clause for non-production," I've never heard of that before. Is that a standard clause, or commonly found clause in contracts? (I was given this link: "How to Succeed in Animation. (http://genedeitch.awn.com/index.php3?ltype=chapter&chapter=Intro&page=4)" It's #4 )

It only ran once on the air, and it's my understanding that since I did not sign anything that sold my rights to my work ( I just got a check for the use of my animation ), my work is still my property. Who knows, maybe someone actually saw this ad? ( I wish :) )
Here's a quick cut from it;
http://jp.joshpurple.com/BeaverAd.gif
http://jp.joshpurple.com/BeaverAd.gif
(yup, it's got LOTS of room for improvement, but for four months it was a passion -my 'big break' on a television commercial :) ).

[joshpurple]

I did hear back again from the Commercial Producer today. She has met with her Sales Manager for how to go forward with their Client, she has asked me;

"I was wondering if it would be okay if everything went through my Sales Manager for now regarding client communication.

Our client said he has no problem whatsoever with separate contracts and paying with separate checks, but just can not be bogged down with meetings and calls. My Sales Manager is going to try to coordinate all our efforts so that we minimize the need to have to get our client involved. Is this communication arrangement okay with you? Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you and have a great day!"

My reply:

"Thank You 'Xxxxx,'

Would you please send me a description of what you would like me to do for this project -working from a storyboard or script and what that is, who would be the Director(s) I would be taking directions from, how long my services will be needed, payment arrangements, the deadline date for this project, what paper work will be needed for me to sign off on, and any additional items that may be required (i.e; a description of how I am to coordinate through your Sales Manager, if I am now not to communicate with your Client, etc.).

At this time I do require a down payment to begin work, and an agreement of payment for the use of my work with this ad. For any other use of my work in any way, my written permission will be required (i.e; copyright of character, use of any animation in additional spots or ads, use of my work on the internet, if your Client wishes to use my work as a logo, or trademark, etc. ).

I appreciate your time and help, and look forward to hearing back from you soon."


I'm a little surprised that last I talked with her, she was indicating that I should go to her Client. Now she doesn't want me talking with her Client. I'm guessing her Sales Manager is a higher-up who has now been given this account to deal with?

I'm certainly learning a lot, and I'm VERY Thankful for the help and advice you guys have given me. I will not forget that, I'll be happy to return the favor, Thank You all again.

[joshpurple]

Gulp...

I did hear from her Sales Manager today, he is the Local Sales Manager for this region & sounds like one of the higher ups (he is certainly given big billing by the Commercial Producers). This makes me a little more nervous, but that is not what makes me say "Gulp..."

The Sales Manager sent me a detailed "Project Planning Guide." And for the first time I saw the project deadline; "Deadline for the client is to begin airing the (:30) commercial is no later than January 14, 2007"

For their last project, they had to mail in the final ad (took at least a day. They mailed it on Friday, to arrive for airing on Monday). January 14, 2007 is a Sunday. That means, like last time, it will need to be mailed in on Friday. That will be the 12th. By his project plan, they hope to now have the storyboard done and over to me by Dec. 14th. (the storyboard is not done yet, the Commercial Producers are making it). By his project plan, Monday, Dec. 18th, I will email over a Contract for Services to his Client. Their Client will then have my contract. No details are given on when they would sign it, by what date.

But, he does have written;
5) Once character animator has received the signed agreement from the Client and any necessary payments, the character animator begins work on the project per specifications given to him by the Commercial Producer. Although I have not seen the storyboard, I have heard them mention this may be using a voice-over, and it will be composited into video, -which they will do (the Commercial Producers). The voice over has not been done yet, at least I've heard nothing on it. And the video has not been shot yet. I can create the model, rig & skin it in one day, but I will have to have the voice over and the video to animate by (and I'm guessing they will want to make edits and changes).

I think this would give me ~ 20 to 26 days to create the character animation, that's a spread giving their Client 6 days to get me the payment, as of the 18th. But, getting that video and voice-over will be time critical. If they take a holiday break, and don't get me the video until next year... Gulp...

(man that feels like a tight deadline)

[norvman]

This all sounds too familure....

if they can't squeeze money out of you one way they will do it another...

you must be sure that you have stated the minimum amount of time you need to do your work 'after' all nessairy matterials are in your hands ...

this is money to start...
storyboards to work from...
voices to sync too...

and then time to let the client evaluate and make any changes...

you must must must state this in your contract....

That way regaurdless of when they set the deadline the Ad agency at least has signed your contract with your time limits ... so they still owe you money even if you don't hit the dead line....

that way they have to take into account your time requirements....

the Industry as a whole and Ad Agencies in general will try to make you believe the only thing that legally counts is the deadline...

If your going to deal with the client directly you need to send out constant reminders to that Client that it is the Ad Agency that is dragin their feet about getting the work to you so you can start your end of it ....

That puts the heat back on the Ad Agency....

Now Agencies... might not like you doing that.... but if they are going to squeeze you ... you have to squeeze back....

it's like they say.... "hey nothin' personal... it's just business..."

[joshpurple]

Thank Your Norvman! (very much!)

What you just said sounds like golden advice to me. The Ad Agency has asked that I not communicate with their Client. Even though the Ad Agency will not be signing contracts with me, or paying me. Contracts and payment for me, are coming directly from their Client. Which to me, sounds like just what you said, -about the Ad Agency then being able to put the fault on me.

This morning I received an email from the Ad Agency's project lead, -giving me a one paragraph description of what they think the storyboard will be. Adding, "This should be enough to keep things moving." The Ad Agency is not using a storyboard artist, and they don't plan on having one.

According to the Project Planning Guide the Ad Agency sent me:1) Provide character animator with storyboard animation requirements by 12/14/06.
And in the same Project Planning Guide;
5)Once character animator has received the signed agreement from the Client and any necessary payments, character animator begins work on the project per specifications given to him by Commercial Producer. To this morning's email I replied, "Thank you for the information. This is not a storyboard, I can not move forward until I have the storyboard and all needed materials (video, voice-overs, storyboard, etc.). I understand the Client requires a contract from me that will include the cost. If I do not know what character animation I am needed to produce, I can not determine a price for the Client to pay. More importantly, according to the Ad Agency's Project Planning Guide, the conditions of item #5 must be met, for "..character animator begins work.."

At this time I feel it is very important for the Client to deeply understand that the quality of animation depends upon the time that is given to create it. When animation is rushed, the quality drops. The less time given, and the greater the rush, the lower the animation quality will be.

If a holiday break is taken, this project allows for 3 weeks of production time. I feel the Client deserves a chance to see the work they will be paying for, and should be allowed a chance to review it, and ask for any changes that might be needed. This deadline, I feel, does not allow the Client a fair amount of time to review the work done.

The Commercial Producers will need time to edit/composite(adding audio, etc.), and mail the tape in by Friday, Jan.12th. This will require the character animation work to be finished in advance of the deadline given.

Since I have not see the storyboad, I do not know how much character animation work is needed. With the project deadline, it is my estimate that no more than 4 seconds of character animation will be possible, if that. Depending on when item # 5 of the Project Planning Guide is completed, and when all the needed material is received (storyboard, video, etc.), the amount of character animation time possible could be even less than that.

I feel the Client must be made aware of these conditions."
I did not want to mention, 'lower the quality will be...' since I never want to create low quality. But I do want the Client to understand that if this project is put on such a deadline, then the animation will suffer, and only a very short amount of animation would be possible (character waving, character walking along, character driving by in car, character winking, etc.).

[JYoung]

So basically this place has no idea what they're doing?

[siouxfire]

Josh, I thought I'd pop back to see how things progressed, but it sadly seems they've moved sideways at best. Still, your behaviour and communications are spot on. You are informing them of the time requirements as well as the basics that you need before work can begin. The deadline is incredibly tight considering you're working solo let alone the obstacles set in your path.

Anyhow, best of luck and thank you for sharing your experience. I hope it pans out. I wish I had more advice to give, but aside from my earlier comments, I'm afraid I can't offer any further insight aside from the fact that in my experience the larger the company, the more disorganised(and slower paying) they tend to be.

[joshpurple]

Hi Siouxfire and Thanks!

Good question Jason. I believe they know commercials, are part of a huge corporation, make very large offers, and get paid even larger contracts... and, they are a smaller, local office that is just learning about adding animated characters to their commercials.

They have all the latest Macs in their offices (huge, beautiful offices at that :) ), many of them know how to edit, use After Effects, are good with sound and audio, know how use professional high-end video cameras, but -even if they know Maya, or Max, they don't know how to do the character animation. Right now, tons of local businesses are very excited about having 3D animated characters. They want them for an ad, on a web site, on their business cards, posed in costumes for the holidays, etc. If the business has done a television ad, then they are more serious about actually getting an animated character. If the business has not done a t.v. ad, then the price usually gets them to drop jaw.

What's surprised me the most is, -how they came back to me to do a second commercial & decided I should get paid directly by their client AND their client had no idea of this. I think the Commercial Producers were thinking of their commissions, got really excited about how much they would make & didn't take (or plan in advance on) a character animator cost. I believe their client had a past understanding of paying for an ad campaign & either the client, or the corporation, allowed for estimated costs to vary a little. Such as paying $300.00 to a non-union actor, or paying for the stuffed bear that will be needed in the ad, etc. When it came to my costs, the Commercial Producers decided to try push that onto their Client's cost. Not a small fee, and I think the Commercial Producers knew their Client would say something, but know even less about character animation. And so the Commercial Producers wanted to 'sell' me to their Client ("He's worth it, he's so good, this character will be so popular, it will be super cute, he can do web animations too! etc., etc. "). I don't think their Client sees it that way. Their Client went to them, because they were already sold on wanting a 3D character. When I went to their Client, to set-up payment arrangements, as I was told to, the Client got confused and then pissed. He wanted to know what he had paid for, and he was concerned that if he tried using my work & it wasn't paid for, they would get in trouble. He believed the Commercial Producers could have been setting him up for a lawsuit. So, they met, and they worked it out that, their Client would not pay the 'extra' for me, but instead would write separate checks. He would still be paying the same amount that he had made the deal for on the ad. But, one check for 'X' amount would be written to the corporation, and one check for 'Y' amount would be written to me. However much my cost would come to. None of this had been planned out in advance. For me, when I found out their Client was not planning to pay me, and the Commercial Producers were not planning to pay me, I said, "I'm not doing any more work, until I get a signed contract, or a down payment." Since then they have been trying to; figure out my costs as cheaply as possible (plan a concept with as little character animation in it as possible, -which is exactly what the Client wants the opposite of. Their Client would like to see TONS of cute, animated character), get their Client to agree to signing a contract with me, get their Client to pay me a down payment. The Client will not sign a contract with me or make a down payment, until he knows exactly how much it will be for. They asked me how much I will charge, and I said, "storyboard?" Which brings us to them not having a storyboard ready yet. I believe they have decided on what the concept for the ad will be.

Which brings me to my last action... which kinda' sucks, but I think it still is an 'o.k.' move.

The Client wants LOTS of cute, animated character. I'm guessing, when the storyboard gets done, it will look like crap, and the Commercial Producers will want to pass it to me 'secretly.' They will not want their Client to see the 'Draft' storyboard, but they will want me to use it to figure out how long the character animation will take & come up with a cost. Their Client is not dumb, he knows I have to have the storyboard to come up with the cost. Their Client will ask to see the storyboard. When the Client sees the storyboard, they will say, "we asked for TONS of cute, animated character. Why is there over 20 seconds of video and no animated character?" The Commercial Producers might try to explain that will cost more. The Client will say, "I made a deal with you to create an ad with lots of cute, animated character in it." Bottom line guess, the Client will want changes. The changes will = more character animation is needed. The storyboard will have to be done again. I will see the new storyboard, smile, and say, that will take more time, and will cost more money. Meanwhile, the deadline will be approaching, people will go on a holiday break, and I'll be stuck with an insane deadline.

So, I'm going to write their Client;
I began production of your commercial when the Commercial Producer came to me for doing the work. When I asked about having a signed contract, or receiving a down payment for the work, the Commercial Producer informed me that I would need to receive payment directly from you, their client. At that time, when I contacted you about such an arrangement, I was surprised to learn that you had no knowledge of this arrangement.

Since I had no contract, or down payment, to get paid for my work, I felt that I could not move forward on this project until I had such.

I was not of the understanding that the deadline was January 14, 2006. Without a signed contract, or a down payment, at this time, and with this deadline & schedule of items as presented in the Project Planning Guide from the Commercial Producers, I will not have the needed time to be able to create the professional quality of 3D character animation needed for this project.

I wish you the best for the Holidays, and hope that we might work together at some future time.


On the last project, the Commercial Producer did change the deadline a number of times. They might agree to changing the deadline? But, I'll be sure to post up what I hear back...

[Atwooki]

Hi joshpurple

Welcome to 'practices of England' ;) - the modern doomesday book :rolleyes:

joshpurple
A week later, the Commercial Producer sent me an email, asking me if their Client had paid me.... I was stunned, and could not believe it. "No." I replied, "I have not been paid..."
The Commercial Producer then told me that it was their Client who had to pay me. The television commercial then got pulled off the air.

I told the Commercial Producer, "You came to me to do the work, I asked you to sign a Contract for Services, you asked me if that could wait. Acting in good faith (and great stupidity), I trusted you and agreed to wait. I did the work for you, you directed me to send the billing invoice to your corporation, you should now pay me, not your client."
Working from home, I withheld my final work until (hoping!) to get paid..
Result: The below '"boss" sent in a co-worker 'friend', ordered him to climb the scaffolding to my flat (winter - outside my house on the first floor.. thank you James) to reason with me after two weeks late on payment (RE: payment on receipt of invoice within 24 hours every two weeks... this on three weeks before Christmas with my wife pregnant, as he well knew)


Quoted by:Kanga
There is no standard business practice as I understand it. If you are freelancing and an agency asks you to go directly to the client no sweat. Make sure you get half in advance, watermark everything and de watermark the final work once you have received payment for the complete job. This way you circumnavigate contracts and legal fees and time effort and worry.

You might have a standard contract that states corrections above and beyond the original briefing are subject to cost increases and delay in deadlines. That would be a terms of service thingy.

I don't really see what the fuss is about. If you believe in your quality then a take it or leave it attitude is essential,... and also quite normal.
Chris, Chris - I'm ashamed and dumbfounded to hear this from you - after all, you know very well (and in detail!) my identical personal situation to Joshes' very well:
- Lengthy contract incurred, work for hire by one company in London and payment from another - indeed, another country!)... (ya-de-ya-de-ya) lost the case £4000 in court - find the same person later on (industry gossip = typical weak-minded coward) trying to blacklist me from (guess who!: his equally dodgy friends in the "so-called-industry" between here, UK and US)= name-calling, personality-tagging etc)... and I know you'll read this text from what I've heard) - Work in the three week period for the above here:
Project work samples for those interested:
http://www.doha-2006.com/gis/menuroot/news/videos.aspx
- Airport- Push up - Podium - Intro
(I did the modelling, texturing and SyFlex cloth work)

AJE
The person who asked you to do the work is the person who should be paying you. If they do not have the authority to pay you, they do not have the authority to hire you.
The company I work for has been there before, and we've had to sue to get paid... it won't happen to us again I guarantee that... it's too much of a pain in the arse to go after the money, and it creates a lot of ill-will with clients both current and potential ones who hear about a lawsuit without context or specifics.

AJE: Quite right.... In fact, over the three month period the initial payments I had were from the above companys bank account, and on the contract.. :rolleyes:

ericsmith:
This is actually pretty surprising. Typically, Producing agencies don't want you going any where near their clients for two reasons.

1. The standard practice for an agency is to mark up the costs of services they hire out. If the client pays you directly, the agency doesn't get a cut.

2. This is kind of related to number 1. Agencies don't want an artist to end up cutting out the middle man and making the end client their client instead of the agency.

Personally, unless the end client is a pain to work with, I would take this situation as a blessing in disguise. If you can forge a good relationship with a large national company, you have a chance of surviving any fallout between the company and the agency. Considering what you've said, this fallout sounds likely.

Fantasy land - Points 1& 2 make beautifully intangible excuses; but, sorry; but please quantify Eric ;)


joshpurple:
The Commercial Producer told me their Client said,
- He said, she said..... ho hum... typical third party runaround

joshpurple:
They have all the latest Macs in their offices (huge, beautiful offices at that ),
But, I'll be sure to post up what I hear back...
Hmm... wonder how they can afford those ;)

Anyway; to summise:
1.)
Seems in my experience and research to be the usual sweaty/paranoid industry behaviour amongst certain company types (and their close-knit buddies: old companies (1995 - present day generally, and those related to the 'ol' 'Industry Party' clan) - there IS a definite link also between these people, believe me)

2.)
Footnote:
Given the enormous time, effort & expenditure incurred by the majority of CG artists for little financial return, why are so few stories of abuse reaching these forums (after all, I personally hear them in gossip MORE than regularly here in London, at least ;)

----Fear of reprisals methinks :shrug:

Chris

[joshpurple]

Hi Chris and Thanks! I enjoyed reading your post 110%.

I watched all of Orry, and the scaffolding assault might make for a good game level :) .

Arggh... it's a good guess the Commercial Producers won't be singing my name in praise around town... I hope this will not affect the work relationship I have with my reseller (where I teach the Max workshops, -where the Commercial Producer got my name for the work in the first place).

[joshpurple]

Wow! Their Client (or I guess I should be referring to them as my client now) seems very cool! :)

We both basically ignored the Ad Agency's request that we not talk to each other, -the Ad Agency did not want the client or I to talk with each other. The client called me, and we just talked with each other directly. The client then sent me an email (I requested he send me an email confirming what we talked about);

From my client;
Please bill me for the work you have done. The Ad Agency goal is to get it done by January 14th. I don't think its possible to come out with a solid piece that quick. What I explained to them is to have the contract put together, and I'll sign. My concern was/is having double meetings with them, and me being billed twice for the same communication.

In the brief time we had together I could tell you're passionate about your work, and would like You to still be the animator.

Cost of the project I'm not sure how long this will take.
I can pay you 50% down 25% on the proof.
Do you think February sometime is enough time? By March 1st?
Please call me on my cell after your review.
I will now be contacting the Ad Agency.
YES!!

"I can pay you 50% down 25% on the proof."

*josh is dancing a jig*
O.k., I have to calm down. I had to check and make sure I was awake :) .
That just gave me another ~2 MONTHS on the project and 50% down!

Damn! I figured I had just lost out on this completely. I can't believe how MUCH better that will work out.

But... I haven't heard from the Ad Agency yet. And, I will want a completed storyboard, that the client has seen and agreed too, and signed off on. If they change the storyboard, then that changes everything (so, I think I should put that in the contract).

[norvman]

aaaaaaaallll right! Josh! :thumbsup:

now your talkin'

Yes sometimes you have to be as coniving as the Ad Agency is to get by...

if your in email contact with your client... simply send him an attachment copy of a scanned in story board... saying...

this is the story board they sent me... is this okay???

and even if the Ad Agency doesn't know you two are conversing ... it keeps the Agency honest... (which in my expereince is a difficult thing to do)

Sooner or later the Agency might figure out that that is what is going on... but then so what... if the client is happy who cares?...

One way they might figure this out if they have any brains (which alot of them don't...) is if the client ask for something the Agency doesn't really want to deliver on... so they leave it out of the information they give you... but your talking to the client so somehow majically you make it just exactly the way the client wants it even though the Agency didn't want it done that way...

but then all you have to say is well the Client is paying me... not you....

Suddenly the Agency can't gripe because they are not the ones controling the purse strings....

and yah... I'll dance that Jig with yah...:bounce::bounce:

[joshpurple]

LOL! :) Thanks Norvman!

Again, sounds like good advice to me, Thanks!

It is a good feeling, I really thought that time and work was over. But to get until March 1st, and the 50% down, :bounce: is right!

The Ad Agency has not said a thing... No phone calls, no emails. I haven't heard anything from the Commercial Producers. I have cc'd them in all emails. As soon as I talked with the client, we agreed to how much on the down payment (half was not a problem for him), how much on approval, and how much at run time. Weekly invoices will not be needed, I'll be more than happy to go with this amount (the three payments), & Monday he's agreed to sign the contract for services. He mentioned he had been getting frustrated with the Ad Agency.

I can only guess that since he is paying the same amount of money for the ad, this means he has no problem with me getting 'X' amount of the money. Which I'm sure the Commercial Producers are not happy about. Which means, although I'm dancing, things could still go sideways.. *crosses fingers*

(I really would like to see that storyboard soon :) ).

[norvman]

Well sounds to me that if the Agency is pissing off the client that Agency is not the one you want to forever be assoicated with ... use em' while you can but I forsee a split down the road for you...

Plus don't let your guard down now... I am sure the Agency is going to try to hit you with a hook shot before it's over... just keep slapping them with documentation and I think you may beable to keep them off guard until the gig is over with and the money is in your pocket...

It seems to me that any really good Ad Agency would be Client Centered... and I am sure the guy who runs the Agency is just that... but it's his middle man bean counting cronies that are not...

Anywwayz...

keep us informed nothing inspires me more than sorties of Artist justly paid....

[Atwooki]

Gradually, the keel evens itself out , and a balance is found ....

In your case Josh, a few words aimed correctly by an honorable third-partry will NEVER go amiss- (insert appropriate & anguished humor here!)

Good for you , and a healthy 0.002 % less tribulation for me to think about ;)

Merry Christmas to you - and not to the noted lurkers and empty-heads reading this thread (your IPS' are collated & appreciated, btw ;) )

C.

[joshpurple]

Thank You guys! :) The encouraging words are always appreciated!

And, an interesting development....

One of the Commercial Producers has just now sent me an email, saying;
"I bet the other Commercial Producer thought you had enough storyboard information from his last email.." I respectfully replied and made it very clear that it had been well understood, by their own Project Planning Guide in writing, that they -the Ad Agency, would provide me with a completed storyboard. Along with any needed materials (audio/video footage for composite work). The Client knows, and understands this.

The Ad Agency said it would also provide the script, which it has not done yet.
I asked if the script had been finished, and if the Client had seen and approved of the script yet.

Why do I get the feeling that getting the script or storyboard will now be an 'issue'?

[norvman]

If it was me I woun't give beans for a script...

if all I'm doing is the animating then I want story board, Voice over, and maybe a the music bit... all approved by the client...

If I got that I can Animate...

But sometimes the script can be more of a Legal document issue more that it is anything else...

I mean... a script is great in the early stages... and most story people are writers not Artist... so I'm not saying a script is useless...

just that at the stage your at with this job ..... it pretty much is...

:shrug:

[joshpurple]

I like how you think Norvman :) .

For this project I'm not doing a storyboard or a script. If I am asked to do it, or if they explain that is how it needs to work, then I will immediately notify the client -who understands I am not doing the script or storyboard, of this change that the Ad Agency has requested.

I will let the Commercial Producers and the client know that if I am to do the storyboard, the deadline will need to be moved back accordingly to what the starting date is, when the storyboard is complete. I will still not begin any work until I have received the 50% down payment. And that the storyboard work can not be done, until I have received a completed script, -that the client approves of and signs off on. I'll make sure to let the client know that the additional time will be additional cost. Which I think the client will see as +'Y' amount of $$$ to Josh's check, smaller check to Ad Agency.

If I'm asked to do the script (wow...), I'll do the same as above. But, I'm guessing they will do the storyboard. No project could go that sideways, right? :)

[norvman]

ha! no... I mean ...
No my impression was not that you were having to do the script and storyboard...

ha! sorry about that...:eek:

No I'm saying... with the time pressure your talking about that you have there...

Best that you let the Agency know that your kinda of on hold till the SBoards are ready...
you will need voice overs too if your doing any lipsync.... the script at this point wont really help you much...

That is to say you need the Storyboards and the Voice overs from the Agency ASAP... plus they need to be approved by the client...

when you get the Storyboard,
from the Agency...
I would think it would be a simple thing to send an email attachment to the Client with copies of the Storyboard the Agency has given you...

That way you are double checking yourself to see that What you are doing is what the Client really wants and therefores willing to pay for.... (very very important) :wise:

Sometimes what the Ad Agency my tell you to do is not always what the client wants...
Believe me I know...
And if the client is writing a check out directly too you ...
you litturally are working for the Client not the Ad Agency....

Which it kind of befungles me as to why they would have to work directly with the client...

Lets think this through a bit more...

and I'm just sort of digging out things from memories past having worked in publishing with Ad Agencies that were less than perfect...

In any Legal Contract there must be 3 things...
#1 An agreement... (perferably on paper and signed by all parties...)
#2 Services or Property Rendered or Exchanged...
#3 Money Exchanged in a timely and acceptable manner or according to contract...

So I'm setting here looking over all the things you've said in your previous post...

you really don't have a working argeement(contract) with the Ad Agency at all...
your working for the Client....
your agreement is with him (at least I am supposing that you have a signed contract with him)...
your work is going directly to him...
Your compensation is coming directly from him...

I'm not even seein how the Agency can even charge there normal 'finders fee' for having hooked you up with the Client...
Of coarse they will make there money on the boards and the TV spots and everything else...

Anywayz.... I'm thinking too much about it I had better get to work...

[joshpurple]

Check! :thumbsup:

I believe you are correct on all counts.

By the Ad Agency's plan, they will provide the script, storyboard, video, audio, editing, and general creative concepts. The date I was to receive the storyboard was, yesterday, 12/14/2006. Today I reminded the Ad Agency of what is still needed, and that if I do not have a complete storyboard, this project's contract with the client will not be able to go through.

I made sure the Ad Agency and Commercial Producers understand that I will show the script and storyboard to the Client (as Norvman wisely suggests), and let him know that this is what the Ad Agency has said he has agreed to & has signed off on it. If that is not the case, and the Client asks for any changes, or says he never signed off on it, then I told the Ad Agency, I will have him connect with the Commercial Producers & complete the storyboard, making sure the Client signs off on it.

When I receive the complete storyboard, then the contract based on that storyboard -for the character animation needed, the Client can sign, make the 50% down payment, and I can begin work (this also includes, and will be in the contract, that I will receive from the Ad Agency any needed materials to be used in the Ad, -video/audio, props, etc. These items are understood as needed, before I can begin work).

Just keeping that clear has been a bit of a struggle.

Monday then the Client will have a contract sitting on his desk, waiting to be signed -when he feels he is ready to sign off on the storyboard & script. If that takes until the end of January, the Client knows, -that will effect what deadline the character animation can be completed. The contract I will give the Client will state, as he understands, that the character animation will require a minimum of 2 months time. The Client has been very positive in letting me know, "if you need the time to make the character, I'm all in favor of giving you the time you need."

Now the latest struggle... getting the script and storyboard.
From the Commercial Producer now responsible for getting it to me;I'm not a storyboard artist - so my plan is to get into the location I want to use and take digital stills for that purpose. I've got calls to several places and waiting to hear back. My hope is to get into one of them on Friday (12/15). That Commercial Producer sent me the following, stating this should be enough for me to begin work (indeed, as is, no pictures, no timing, just this text); The first concept is the one we're going to produce (Plan A): the shots 1) Shot of the character on diving board getting ready to dive - medium close up - personality should come out in this shot (Obviously I'm leaving those kinds of things to Josh). 2) Wide shot of the dive - we should be able to accomplish the "splash" with a wipe - so Josh doesn't have to animate the water (We'll throw something into the pool to get the splash). 3) Character is out of the water (full body shot)- goes for his towel and starts drying off (Personality here - perhaps proud of his dive?). 4) Last shot is the scoreboard and character makes a final appearance - interacting with the scoreboard as it will have the Client's website or other pertinent info on it. He let me know, that since he is not a storyboard artist, he will not be able to produce the pictures. But, he does believe the above should work as a script and storyboard...

[norvman]

Well ... hummm.... okay...

the Producer ... okay it's true that some Producers don't like to work from storyboards... but lets name the ones that do...

Speilburg, Lucas, Zemackis, Hitchcock, Ridley Scott, Kurosawa, George Miller, Orson Wells,

go here to see more info... or direct Mr. DonNeedNaStoBo producer to this page...
http://www.storyboards-east.com/dm1997.htm
http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/bpg/annual/v06/bp06-10.html

Anywayz...

Explain to eveyone .... Client, Agency, so called producer... that all though you might get away with no story board with live action... it is not the case with Animation...
Remind the (So Called) Director... that not being an Artist has never ever been an excuse for no story board...
of the name above...
Speilburg... not an Artist... does stick figure drawings for his story boards...
Scott the same way...
Zemackis ... Artist... not!
Wells.... hope!
Miller... not...
Lucas... little bit... but not great...
only Hitchcock was an excellent artist out of all the ones mentioned above...

So what it boils down too?

They want you to have to Storyboard for free... no boards no Animation...

well that's at least my advise...

Think of it this way... why does Hollywood go to the expense to have not just scripts... but storyboards... then Animatics... Set designs... Character sketches... Lighting test...

you think those guys like just spending money? Just try getting them to give you a loan to do an independant film... no no... they do all those things prior to production because they know without a doubt that those things save money...

Remember the progression...

Script, Storyboard, Voice Overs, Animatic, Animation, Music...

all the ones the Agency has skiped... your going to have to provide...
Unless you have stated and stick to in your contract that you will not provide them...

If you don't stick to your contract then neither does anyone else... Legally speaking...

Make any since?

Send a letter to the Agency stating...

Since Producer has not delivered a Story Board and I must have one signed off on by the Client I therefore must have your signature that you are paying me to do the Storyboard for ... thus and such amount of money...
Then see what they say...
Tell the Client that the Agency and the Producer are draging there feet... which they are...
And your stuck until a Storyboard signed by you (the client) comes through your door...

Here's what will happen if you proceed with what you got...
you do your Animation (lots of work)according to the script as it is writen above...
Now maybe everything goes without a hitch ... the Client isn't that picky about what he wants he sees something that sorta fits what he imagined it would look like and figures well I'm not the Artist what do I know ... and that's what I'm paying you for...!!!

God... we should all be so luck as you have clients like that all the time...

But lets say he's not that kind of client... or even the Agency starts some lamebrianed concern over trival matters in your Animation... for Satan only knows (cause everyone knows God didn't invent Ad Agencies... ha!) what reason...
And now your stuck with a major not minor but Major Major Major redo... that could have been caught at what?.... story board stage....

It has never failed for me...

what sounded good in the script ... didn't looks so hot on Storyboard... or some new 'better' Idea comes out as the Storyboard develops from the script... then even when the Animatic is set out something about the way the Storyboard had the timing just looks damn goofy... so without the Animatic you would have missed that... finally after revision and revision you come out with a great piece...

the point is Revisions is what make great work...
you know your going to have them... so your either going to do them in the script then the storyboard then the Animatic... Or in the final Animation...

now choose which one do you what the biggest mistakes in...

Anyway... I'm trying to sort of give you some stuff to tell everyone else ... a logical line of reasoning here ... why ... o... yes you definately need a storyboard for the same reason a house needs a Architectual plan....

A script as a discription of that house would only say... make it big with a tall roof and lots o brick around the outside

but the Archtectual plans has all the measurements... the type of brick the fact that a roof must be built a certian way or it won't shed water properly and that the placement of the doors must be so so or people won't be able to open them... or that no... we really don't want the light switch in the middle of the dinning room floor... even though the electrician said he wasn't a draftsman....

:D

[norvman]

An Ad Agency that doesn't have an Artist?

A Producer who doesn't 'do' storyboards?

you sure you want to work with these guys?

[joshpurple]

lol! :)

When they were creating their Project Planning Guide, why would they write, 'provide script and storyboard,' when they had no one doing a storyboard? :)

I did reply saying, that is not a storyboard or a script. That is a description of ideas for some of the shots. I require storyboards with pictures. I mentioned, you might want to first create a complete script that has all of the shots described, along with the timing. Before you create the storyboard, you might want to get the script approved by your client, maybe?

[norvman]

All Right!!!

Way to go J_Purple!

:bounce::bounce::bounce:

[mr3dguy]

Hello, I've been lurking in this thread since the beginning, and its been a very interesting read. There is some great advice here. I'm looking forward to see how things turn out for you Josh. Best of luck.

[joshpurple]

Hi Adan :) , Thanks! I agree, as always my BIG Thanks to All who have given advice and support (Right On CG!).

[joshpurple]

For Monday I've got the contract ready for the Client, nothing fancy. The getting paid part is key :) , after that I think this part will be important; Client will provide approved of storyboard for character animator, and understands that any changes to the storyboard after such time must be agreed to, and allow for, the character animator to sign off on any changes. Any changes to the storyboard after such time will require additional time and cost, and must remain within the scope of what is character animation.I did include a number of other items (Terms of Use, production time to create animation, down payment & amount, materials required before production work can begin, etc.), if anyone wants I'll post up the whole contract.

I will let the Client know that I think it will be in his best interest if he signs this contract, after he has a storyboard he is ready to sign off on. The Client does understand that the Ad Agency will be providing the storyboard. That is going to be an adventure I'll skip. I made sure to be clear that a minimum amount of 2 months will be required to produce the character animation for the concepts and ideas discussed so far.

I'm guessing I'll be home for the holidays, and won't hear much about character animation for a bit now (well... o.k., I work from home :)).

[norvman]

looks great and be sure and reasure the Client that this is for the best and keeps him in the loop as much as possable.... ask him how he feels about it... if he again is the type that doesn't want to mess with any of it and is expecting you to be the expert.... explain that your getting short changed by the Ad Agency in that they are presuring you to do your work without enough matterials to properly complete it... telll him it's like asking a house painter to paint a house without providing the paint... you need his approval to know what color paint he likes... and that is what the story board does and the more detail it has the better for the Client...

Best of luck on this one...

[PhantomDesign]

I've been enjoying reading this thread & learned a lot!

It seems that this advertisement agency should go on the bottom of your client's list (backup work, when work is slow). By working directly with the client in a professional friendly manner (more than that ad agency atleast). . . this could easily lead to referrals, bigger projects, and higher paid projects.

At the end of the project, insert a "I really enjoyed working with you, if you need a character animator for future projects you know where I sleep." Maybe check in 3 months later (with whoever you’re currently communicating with) to remind them you still exist if communication dies off.

[joshpurple]

Thanks Jon! :)

Things have moved in a good direction, maybe. The contract to the Client was presented, and the Ad Agency has started a storyboard and script. Indeed, pictures, timing and all :) . The Ad Agency has sent the storyboard to the Client, and they are now waiting to hear back from him.

The interesting part, now that the 30 seconds has been storyboarded, the Ad Agency has realized it will need to; get a crowd of extra's together for a crowd scene, get an animal handler -get a live duck & a live lizard, rent out the space of an indoor swimming pool, get voice-talent for an announcer voice (no lip sync for the character), get music, get a forklift for camera shots, and they have told the Client they expect that to cost an additional $1,000.00. I think that will cost at least $5,000.00 (maybe more). I'm curious to find out how the Client will respond.

As the storyboard and additional costs get worked out with the Client & Ad Agency, I wait for the down payment & signed contract.

[RmachucaA]

Threads like this make me realize how good my contractors have been, i hope everything smoothes out for you.

[norvman]

Remember that all this paper work and Planning.... (Contracts, Scripts, Storyboards, etc... etc... etc... are all about Clairty....

Many people make the false assumption that the only reason you have a Contract is so you doin't get raked over the coals... That contracts are there to keep everybody honest... and that if you were allways dealing with honest people then you wouldn't need a contract....
That's not entirely true...
In fact a Clear Contract always makes what your going to do and for how much money that much more clear to your Clients and Vendors...

Fact is when you first meet someone ... anyone... not just business people you really don't know them.. not just to trust them... but what it is that they like and dislike.... and how they react to certain things... so you have to go through alot of riggermarole to get things done without pissing anybody off and getting everyone to walk away happy...

The more you work with someone the more you know what it is they are going to like... it's not so much a matter of them being trustworthy or not... it's a matter of understanding.... They use you cause they like the way you work... your glad to work for them cause you seem to do stuff that they like.... it's what is called reputation....

At that point you could throw the contracts out the window and swing it without it...

but that I would say is hummm maybe 20 projects down the road....

[stevopolis]

Depending on where the agency or producer is working, there are generally major laws
protecting contractors and employees. If your in California, then your in luck; the laws
are extremely in favor of the employee or contractor. Sounds like at the very least, the
producer's reputation should be put on the line here.

If you are owed a significant amount of money, you should get legal representation (I'm
in owe that no-one mentioned this). It's amazing how quickly things will get resolved when
a lawyer calls. Additionally, a lawyer can consult you on your rights in this situation.

[joshpurple]

As always, Thanks you guys! :thumbsup:

At this time I don't have to call an attorney. For the last project... things started to move in that direction when I did not get paid. But, they did pay me for the last television commercial.

Right now, for this new project, the Ad Agency needs to make the client happy with the storyboard. I wish them good luck, and hope they do a good job, so far I am glad to see they did actually create a storyboard with pictures & have sent that to the Client :).

The part that will be interesting to see is... how the Client reacts to the Ad Agency relating the additional costs, and how accurately the Ad Agency is relating what those costs will be. I think they are guessing very low, in hopes of not upsetting the Client (That could back-fire on them if the costs end-up being say.. five times more than what they tell the Client).

The Client did get back to me on the contract. He has a concern about the use. I was very careful to make sure that my contract for services does not give away my ownership of the work I have done. The terms of use in the contract I gave him allows for the use of my work to be used in that specific commercial ("Client So-and-so, Inc. Character Commercial," ISCI Code: "XXXX1111"). But, the Client wants unlimited use of that character. The work that I create is my property and has my copyright on it. As long as the character is my property I will govern any use of it through my written permission. To help clarify the use for the client, I let him know that I would be glad to sell him the copyright. I could be wrong, but I believe that is what he needs to do, and that would be in his best interest (He plans on having this character as the logo and trademark for his business).

[norvman]

I think Texas is probably the worst state in the Union for Artist Rights...

wish I lived in Cal... (one of these days...)

Really guys probably the best way to approach Laywers and Legal matters is way before the come up... put it on your callender... "this day I go to see my Laywer" ... don't have one? that's a good reason to make an appointment to see one... anyone... call them on the phone and ask who is good for handling contract law and copyrights.... They or there secretiaries are normally glad to refer you to someone who can handle your needs...

have your Lawyer waiting in the wings before trouble hits home... that way you allready know for sure what you need to do before you do it...

Hey don't take our word here... this is CGTalk... not Legal Stratagy Talk.... :D

[norvman]

Hey Jpurple.... I think we posted simutaniouly.... ha!:D

Anywayz.... oooooh.... the Client is baulking about copyrights... dang!
that's a bad turn of events...

One of the things I have constantly used in the past is the idea of trying to make sure that the Client understands how copyright works...

Most people have been led to believe that just because you pay money for something means it belongs to you ... every last peice of it... even the trademark... patents and copyrights...

Yet no one assumes that just cause you purchased a Big Mac that you now own the copyrights to the golden Archs in your ad campain... or just because you paid good money for that new Car doesn't mean you now have the right to use that fancy logo on the side of it that looks ssssoooo good ...

Same deal goes with your animation... Sure he has use of it... just as he has use of his car...
for what ever the specified period of use is...
but he doesn't own it completely...

Just like his copy of Microsoft Windows... yah he uses it... but he doesn't own coplete and total rights to it....

So why is it that Clients kick and scream when an Artist starts talking about copy rights?

Now as a practical matter since in this case your not the guy would designed the character or did the storyboards or did the idea work on it... the only thing you own is that animation... and this is the only guy who is going to pay you for use of that preticular animation...

So.... you will have to decide which way you go on this...

but one more word of caution...
once a Client knows you will back down on your copyrights... he will never let you go back to using them again...

[norvman]

Jpurple....

go here and read this...

http://www.nolo.com/resource.cfm/catID/B0602CF7-ABD8-4E42-BA43CC5D1C51DCE8/310/238/

good info...

[joshpurple]

Good read, Thanks Norvman! :)

I'm just one of the 'Very-little-never-been-heard-of-before-guys,' who's happy as snot to get the work :) (and CG, I think, has AWESOME members! :buttrock: ).

The Client has been good about understanding the copyright, he has mentioned purchasing the copyright before. The concern about Use the Client had is very understandable and one I am willing to help reduce cost for the Client on. Since he is willing to purchase the copyright, I will waive the the cost for the Use of my work in the contract for services. The Client understands that as long as it is under my copyright, it is reasonable that I be paid for the use of it. He also understands that if it is to be the logo / trademark he is going to use for his company, he does want it's copyright.

And the latest... I've just heard from one of the Commercial Producers, the project is on permanent hold. The Client can not afford to do it. I did not hear this from the Client yet. I'm not surprised to hear this, I think the Ad Agency has been dropping 'bombs' on the Client since the beginning.

I'll post up what I hear next :).

[PhantomDesign]

This may have actually worked out for the best (the ad agency was going to fail regardless of what you did) . . . and it is likely that the client will look for another ad agency. If you hang in there, you will probably still be able to work on the project with another agency.

Now...check this out . . . now if you work with another (hopefully more professional) agency, you now have more contacts, and potentially more work from that agency.

[joshpurple]

True :).

I did make an offer to lower my costs, but my costs compared to what the Ad Agency is charging are so much less that I don't think it will make a difference in the big picture for what the Client is looking at.

From what I can remember, the Client made a deal with the Ad Agency for an ad campaign. The Ad Agency did not do much planning, and tried to push any costs that came up on their Client. They created a plan that called for a storyboard, then the person needing to do the storyboard stated, "I'm not a storyboard artist." <place additional 'bombs' here, etc.>

I feel pretty silly that I did not bow out sooner, I was getting slapped in the face with lots of rather obvious warning signals.

I know, and have worked with ~ 10 of the local animation studios in the area. I consider all of them friends, and I've had no bad relations with any. I'll be curious to hear if anything happens with the project. My costs are a good bit below what any of the local animation studios are, -since those studios employ at least 6 or more people & they rent fairly large spaces for their studios.

My guess, the Ad Agency might try to find a student, or another independent animator. But those Commercial Producers won't send me any holiday gifts :). The Client might look into some other studios, or another ad agency.

I think the Client will find that the lower-end cost for a 30 second commercial will be ~ $25,000.00 to $35,000.00, a mid-range cost of ~ $50,000.00 to $90,000.00 and an upper range of ...well, skies the limit (I'm in the Midwest, I don't know what the ranges are on the Coasts). If the Client, for his animated character commercial, can find it at $50,000.00 -he's finding a good deal (that is not my cost, but the cost of the entire production for the ad), as a guess.

[BigJay]

Sorry about the news since it was looking like stuff was moving ahead. At least you are a contract veteran now, you'll know what to look out for with the next client.

It sounded like the company did not know what they where doing at all. I am not sure since I have yet to do animation to live plates but wouldn't need to scout out the locations and give you some shots of the locations to match the beaver jumping into the water. It sounds like even if they gave you storyboards any work you did would require some major changes if the pool had a 5 rung ladder to the board and the storyboard had 3 and the board was a foot shorter and the water...etc...etc...


Good luck hope the client sticks with you if they jump agencies. Maybe you can still talk to the agency about logos, web art, and any other materials, sales videos etc. If they are sticking with your character then there may be other art they need in the mean time.

[xmidnight8x]

I work for a marketing design company, and Ad Agencies come to us to do the graphic work for their clients. Never have I had an agency tell me to call "Nike" or "Best Buy" to get payment. There's also always a written contract/agreement before anything is done, period. This guy is completely BS-ing you about them doing business like that for the past 10 years. They sound like a very bad client for you =\ but you seem to have your smarts and experience on your side to cover yourself :thumbsup: but I personally wouldn't find them to be worth the headache.

[erikbriggs]

Josh, keep it up! @&^% happens and the only thing that matters is how you clean yourself off and go to the next step. This was a great and informative thread for all us others out there who were rooting for you. We thank you for your hard work and tenacity. Its good to learn a lesson without having to experience it (for us). You rock!

Now you have .... more time for PW! Haha! j/k

I wish you all the luck keeping your studio running. Do what you have to :).

[joshpurple]

:thumbsup: Thanks MUCH All! I appreciate it!
And Erik!! :beer: Thanks!

Good to see you here! Right On :) , I look forward to doing LOTS with PW!

[norvman]

Yah ditto from here on what briggs said...

Thanks jpurple for starting the thread good call....:thumbsup:

[stork]

congrats on how you handled yourself josh...


i have a few observations:

You may not be as out as you think. Heres why - there is already a commercial with your character in it out there (even if it did only air once,) if the client wishes to maintain (or establish) a strong brand, it would behoove them to move forward woth you.

The absolute smartest thing you did was to protect your copyright... if they want the beaver they HAVE to use you, or at least buy the rights to your design for someone else to animate so either the client is simply not going to advertise, or they have to start completely over... not something they could afford, but i bet they could afford to move ahead with material that already exists!

AND finally the corporation may not be as sinister as you think... many local media outlets (tv stations, Cable providers etc...) have what are called retail services production departments, their sole purpose is to give the sales team a way to get commercials produced for dirt cheap without having to use a REAL agency (which many stations offer a 15% kickback to for bringing business) and while they may be good at production and the down and dirty method of getting car ads on the air they arent real agencies... it sounded a little like your large corporation is a service provider? so this is likely what you are dealing with with them.

[joshpurple]

Thanks Christopher, you nailed it :) . Yup, they are a service provider.

I agree, I didn't mean to paint them as sinister. The cost was something I spent a lot more time on trying to figure out. A lot of thinking, 'just how fast could I get this done?' But, that thinking maybe needs to be, 'just how fast can we get this done?' (I was very happy I asked for getting the project/plans in writing). It did get me thinking on the most 'minimal' ways to do the character animation (that, after I read about the rendering used in Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest, *eyes bulge* :) ).

[stork]

Now i know for sure they are, i can say this with a fair amount of confidence (since i have worked on both sides of the fence) you can, without guilt, approach the client about finishing production on the ad if you wish. This is how i was able to expand my business... the Corporation has no real interest in producing the ad, their true interest is getting air time sold. That opens the door to do a pitch based on something like, "well i may not be able to get you guys the air time, but i can at least move forward on getting you the ad in your hands." If the client has a finished ad spot then they are free to take it to whatever service proider they wish (including of course the corporation) which will make everyone happy. Start to see yourself as a General contractor... find a local camera operator and editor, try and get the shoot done in a couple of days (day rate for freelance editors and camera ops for video is usually around 500 bucks a day) you can serve as producer. Most camera ops can do at least decent lighting as well, and you can typically rent a beta sp (or sx) lighting and camera outfit for around 600-700 bucks a day. These are prices in my area of course california will of course cost a bit more, but as you are in the mid west i bet your costs wil be similar. But i digress... the point is you could bring the production in at WAY under the 50 grand your were thinking before. This is a good opportunity for you, i think.

At the very least dont worry about losing the corporation as a client. Knowing what i do they werent likely to use you that much anyway, as they tend to be notoriously cheap cheap cheap.

[norvman]

I couldn't agree more with what Stork is saying here...

you hit the nail on the head when you talk about TV stations having productions facilities to only get the Air Time sold... I have knocked heads with those guys many times ... Storks approach sounds great! It makes me want to rethink doing TV commercials... which I stopped doing a few years back...

Great info Stork ... thanks!:thumbsup:

[joshpurple]

Indeed! :)

I might be a little cautious to use the same concepts and ideas that the commercial producers created for the project, but maybe making something simple and fun? Like a dancing penguin (penguins seem very popular right now). I think the client is out for a holiday break, but is interested in connecting with one of the local studios. I'll send them a 'Happy New Year' waving penguin, and wish them well.

And Thank You for the idea Stork!

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